Do you believe that once you are saved, you are always saved?

[Erwin]

Do you believe that once you are saved, you are always saved? Please choose an option from the poll above...

[RNwannabe]

Well since I voted, I may as well explain it. ;)

I have always been taught that you can backslide and lose your salvation. And that when you re-dedicate your life to Jesus you are back in the fold. But you dont have to be re-saved.

This has always made me wonder. If you lose your salvation when you backslide, wouldnt you have to get re-saved?

This has given me many a night of pondering. And I have began to come around to the once saved always saved thinking.

I would really like to see what others think on this subject.

Because there are some things I just cant reconcile to the once saved always saved.

I would appreciate any scripture you could give for any of the choices.

Thanks! :)

[oncewaslost]

well, i believe that if you could lose your salvation then that is saying that God is not all powerful and therefore saying that God's not who he is. Romans 8:38-39

[Apologist]

Originally posted by oncewaslost
well, i believe that if you could lose your salvation then that is saying that God is not all powerful and therefore saying that God's not who he is. Romans 8:38-39

Amen oncewaslost!

Philippians 1:3-6 says:

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, 5 for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

If God begins a good work in you He will finish it. I think people misunderstand what eternal security is. We only see the outside of a person, but God sees the heart. If a person is truely saved they cannot lose that salvation, the scripture is replete with verses backing that up. John 10:27-29 is absolutely clear:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

If we can lose our salvation then someone is able to snatch us out of the Father's hand and Jesus was wrong. Do you believe that? I sure don't. We are secure in Him, but we must examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13:5-6:

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.



God Bless

[InspectorVol]

better than I can if you care to read. It is a fairly long read, but very informative. It does not condone OSAS.


http://www.gospelway.com/salvation/eternal%20security.htm

[RNwannabe]

Okay, I have read the replys and I did go to the link given.

There are arguments for both sides and this is so confusing, because both seem to be correct.

I really want to understand this. I know that even though I am saved and Jesus is the Lord of my life, that I sin.
We all sin, and will continue to until we are either raptured or we die.

We sinbecause we are not yet made perfect, that will happen when we die, or are raptured.

Now these sins arent the same kind like killing someone, or committing adultery. They are more like thinking, or saying things that are hurtful when a person is angry, or feelings of selfishness.

Everyone deals with these types of sins. But doesnt the Bible say that God doesnt consider one sin worse than another?

If that is the case, then lets say I sin by getting angry and saying something hurtful to someone. Then in God's eyes this sin would be the same as if I had went out and murdered someone?

Do you see my line of thinking here?

And if there are no differences in the 2 sins, how can a person commit murder and still be saved and going to heaven if they dont repent?

I would appreciate any thoughts or scriptures on this, as I would like to understand better.

Thanks!

[Navigator]

The problem with trying to analyze this as a doctrinal statement outside of the rest of the theological system is that it leads to confusion.

Also one has to have a good understanding of what 'saved' is, before one can honestly evaluate if one will always be 'saved'.

If you are stating that 'saved' means saying a prayer, making a confession, being baptised, or anything that involves an action on your part, you might want to re-think/re-evaluate what a 'saved' condition is.

Doctrinally a saved condition is a changed heart... Eternal Security (as Calvinists call it) affirm that Salvation is entirely God's provision for his elect, whom he calls, and who respond to his effectual call. God then changes the heart (I don't think this is an instantaneous change) to conform the believer into the image of His Son.

So there we see a difference between salvation and sanctification.

To be saved, is to be consecrated, or to be separated, bascially 'holy'. God's holy ones are continually sanctified, or being made pure through living their lives, the path could be three steps up and two steps back, but the trend is always up and towards righteousness, and the prime motivator is God.

Think about the people in the 'Hall of Faith' in Hebrews: Noah, Abraham, Moses, David... were they consistently perfect in their behavior? No, they relied on God to change them, God was their Savior... Same on this side, with Jesus as our Redeemer (who is also their redeemer)...

Hope that helps...

Peace.

[Blackhawk]

I voted for OSAS. I think these verses say it all.

John 10

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

blackhaw6

[BK_30]

okay a little testamonial time. I was raised in the church, my grandfather is/was an ordanded (sp) minister. When my Grandfather retired we had a hard time finding a church, and eventually stopped going. My parents divorced, I founded out somethings that happened in my childhood that I wish had never happened, I saw hypocrisy everywhere. I left, I renounced my faith, I still believed that God was there but I was so mad and hurt I only wanted to hurt him as badly. I started using the gifts he had given me in away he never intended: reading Tarot cards and so forth. He took my gifts away, for which I was actually grateful. Many years later My grandparents sent me the left behind series and the second book sent me to my bible, after I dusted it off, I started reading. It was 3 am and tears just started streaming down my face as I fell on my knees before him and asked him if he could ever forgive me. I had been baptized at birth had been confirmed at age 11. At that moment he told me he had never left me even through all I had done, he had loved me and been with me even though I ingored him and did all I did to hurt him. He still LOVED ME... So yeah once saved always saved even when we hurt him. I finally saw him as the parent he is, that even when I do wrong he loves me and I am his child. My life has not been the same in the past 2 yrs and I don't ever want to go back who I was before.

[Candidus]

This is without a doubt a poor way to please people with your first post :) But here it goes.

I believe that it is possible to cast off our salvation. I do not say this because any singular verse, but because of the wealth of verses that make up the whole body of Scripture. I reject the theory based upon the lack of Scripture to support it, and the necessity of taking it out of context to be able to assert it.

I enclose an article that discusses the key verses of Eternal Security. WARNING: The presentation is an an aggressive manner.

http://usaf.webhostme.com/eight_pillars_of_eternal_securit.htm

P.S. I was actually surprised at the percentages in the poll. I thought that the numbers would be a lot lower for those that believe that salvation could be lost.

Blessings

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Candidus

I enclose an article that discusses the key verses of Eternal Security. WARNING: The presentation is an an aggressive manner.

http://usaf.webhostme.com/eight_pillars_of_eternal_securit.htm

Blessings

I looked at the link and I disagree with their arguments. They actually have the audacity to call Eternal Security a heresy? Give me a break! The web page has no name of the author or any other information so I guess we are to take this 'scholar's' word for it and not listen to great men of God like Charles Spurgeon who did believe in eternal Security.

God Bless

[Candidus]

The web page has no name of the author or any other information so I guess we are to take this 'scholar's' word for it and not listen to great men of God like Charles Spurgeon who did believe in eternal Security.

Apologist,

You have the right to disagree, but it would make sense to disagree on content. Just because there is no "name" has nothing to do with the credibility of the statements that are made. Do you rip the book of Hebrews out of your Bible, or say that it has no credibility because of a name? This is poor logic.
Just because "great men like Charles Spurgeon" believed in Eternal Security, does not validate it as true anymore than quoting Finney, Adam Clarke, or John Wesley, who did not believe in this doctrine, would establish in any way that Eternal Security is false.

Truth should be founded on substance, not some name.

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Candidus


Apologist,

You have the right to disagree, but it would make sense to disagree on content. Just because there is no "name" has nothing to do with the credibility of the statements that are made.

That is true, I was a bit rash. This debate has gone on for centuries and I doubt we are going to resolve it here. I could point out problems in that author's interpretation of the scriptures used to defend Eternal Security but then someone else would in turn, have a rebuttal for mine. Being this is a secondary issue and our eternal state is not dependant on it, we can debate it vigorously but we do not have to divide over it.

Just because "great men like Charles Spurgeon" believed in Eternal Security, does not validate it as true anymore than quoting Finney, Adam Clarke, or John Wesley, who did not believe in this doctrine, would establish in any way that Eternal Security is false.

Spurgeon was a better preacher than those you mentioned so I will take his side. ;)

God Bless

[Watchman4hm]

Hello all...I guess my exegesis wouldnt hurt?

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED?

Matthew10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that
endureth to the end shall be saved.

According to Paul, NO! Paul likens a mans walk with God, to a race with a starting point and a finish line. At the end of the race we will receive rewards, but as any race one must first finish to receive any acknowledgments. Some who teach once saved always saved, are really saying that we don't start at the beginning, but at the finish line for we cant lose this race. But contrary to that teaching as seen in the following passages we are to "run our course" to the end.

2Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who
shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove,
rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be
turned unto fables.4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an
evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is
at hand.
4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept
the faith:
4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which
the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to
me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The key to understanding Paul's point here in the scripture, is the exhortation to Timothy to make full proof of what he teaches to others, because many will turn away from the faith...In verse 4 we have the words "turn away", this is the Greek word "apostrepho", and eventually leads to apostasy. Its two root words are very intresting to study...

The Greek word "apo" denotes: a separation, departure, cessation, or reversal of something previously;thought, or acted upon.

The Greek word "strepho" denotes to (literally or figuratively) to twist, to turn around and reverse, convert, turn back again.

Paul then goes on to tell Timothy he has run his course to its end and has fought well and "KEPT THE FAITH" "henceforth," (or yet remaining is his reward), a crown of righteousness.

We also see in another place where Paul speaks of a race, and the possibility to willingly depart from that race in chapter 9 of 1 Corinthians.


At the beginning of this chapter we see Paul defending his rights to eat and drink at the cost of the church.(vs1-11) He uses the proof that he is an apostle by pointing out that the converts there are his workmanship through Christ, and that because of this workmanship, he is entitled to the support of the church. His argument with his accusers is simple. He states that just because he is an apostle doesn't mean that he cant live a normal life just like anyone else who is walking with Jesus. Yet life is not free as he eludes in verse 7 with his analogy of moneys needed for a country that would go to war, as they are collected from all its citizens.

1Corintians 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ
our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
9:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for
the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
9:3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other
apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a
vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a
flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the
mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for
oxen?
9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this
is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he
that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we
shall reap your carnal things?

In vs 12-14 Paul rebukes them for their lack of knowledge of ministers and their rights, by reminding them of the priests of the former covenant who were allowed of God to eat the shewbread.

9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather?
Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things,
lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
9:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of
the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are
partakers with the altar?9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

His points made thus far were in defense of his apostleship and the rights to be supported by the church, yet up to that point he had supported himself.(vs12) Paul goes on to show that their support of him in Gods work is not his reward, but God himself will reward him, as spoken of in verses 15-18.


9:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these
things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me
to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for
necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the
gospel!
9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my
will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I
may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my
power in the gospel.

In verses 19-23 we see Paul's policy's of service. He states that he owes no man nothing, (19) yet he has made himself a slave to all. He has met them where they needed to be met ...He has made himself approachable for the gospel, that men might make their choice for Christ. All so that he would be a partaker of the gospel also with them, for it was his duty and particular call within the body.

9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant
unto all, that I might gain the more.
9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to
them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain
them that are under the law;9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without
law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them
that are without law.
9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am
made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
9:23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof
with you.

In verses 24-27 we see the conditions of Paul's rewards for his service to the Lord.
Paul again likens the walk with Jesus as a daily race. One to be run, and thought of as if there can only be one winner.(24) In verse 25 we see that Paul gives instructions about "temperance", eluding that one must run a race and pace himself taking great "personal" care that he has the stamina to finish his own race. This is in reference to maintaining his race worthiness, and the following of the gospel and the setting ones self apart from a life of sin(gospel)...He shows the difference, that Gods reward of a crown, is much greater than that of the Greeks, who would win a crown of woven vines at the winning of the countryside footraces(olympics)......He has already made points previously in this chapter of service to the body in the preaching of the cross, but now he is speaking of his personal commitment and conditions of his reward. In verse 26 he makes another analogy of the race to being a fistfight, where he insists that if he swings, he wants to hit something. Paul is eluding that one must keep his body under subjection at all times, and that when in a fight, or a race, one must keep his focus, not allowing any hindrances to keep him for winning the fight, or the race such as sin would. For if one doesn't do this, he cannot only lose his rewards for works, but become a reprobate also.

9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one
receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all
things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an
incorruptible.
9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that
beateth the air:
9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by
any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a
castaway.

The word here for Castaway is the Greek word; "adokimos" and means; unapproved, that is rejected: by implication worthless(literally or morally), castaway, rejected, reprobate.

So as we can see, by a mans own choice not to bring his body under the subjection of the Spirit to live a sinless life, one can lose his salvation of his own accord...

Philippians 2:12-13
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my
presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your
own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his
good pleasure. :)

[tericl2]

I lean toward OSAS, but do think that it may be possible for one to make the concious decision to give up their salvation.
However, having said that, I also think one who is truly saved is not going to do that. It would be virtually impossible.

Anyway----the point I wanted to make with this post-----because so many folks that believe in losing salvation ignore this.
4
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6
if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[2] to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Heb. 6:4-6

So, for argument's sake lets say you can lose your salvation.....if you do, you ain't gettin' it back honey!!!

[Candidus]

So, for argument's sake lets say you can lose your salvation.....if you do, you ain't gettin' it back honey!!!


It is common for many people to throw this statement out in defense of the doctrine of Eternal Security as if it were in some way an answer to their opponents. Even if the verse in question proved that when one falls away that it is impossible to be renewed again unto repentance, it would do nothing to prove Eternal Security, or disprove the possibility of apostasy.

As for Hebrews 6:4-6, I see the key being verse 6. We are told that it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them. Why is that? The text tells us. They are crucifying the Son of God afresh. This is in the present tense in the Greek. The only thing that is asserted by this verse is that repentance only remains impossible WHILE THEY ARE DOING THIS! If they cease to re-crucify Jesus Christ in their hearts and minds, there is no reasonable explanation why they could not find repentance and forgiveness. The reason I say this is based upon the observation that nowhere in the Bible do we see an individual truly seeking repentance where God has turned them away. There is however, a point in which God gives up on an individual and it becomes futile to even pray for them. Is this what Hebrews 6:4-6 is asserting? The text does not demand it here. The present tense removes the false interpretation that if we can lose our salvation, it is, one sin and it's over.

The difficulty is only in the mind of those who refuse to look into the passage in any depth.

[tericl2]

This is in the present tense in the Greek. The only thing that is asserted by this verse is that repentance only remains impossible WHILE THEY ARE DOING THIS! If they cease to re-crucify Jesus Christ in their hearts and minds, there is no reasonable explanation why they could not find repentance and forgiveness.

I have checked the lexicon and the commentaries to try to understand just what you are getting at here. I am still missing it.
This verse plainly states It is impossible if you have been enlightened, etc and then fall away to "be brought back to repentance.
Why???
Because you would be crucifying the lord all over again and this would subject Him to public disgrace. You are right that the Greek is present tense. Actually the root of the greek word for "to crucify" means "in the midst of". (transliterated root greek word being "ana")
So, to come back to repentance you would be "in the midst of" crucifying Christ all over again and subjecting Him to disgrace and shame. And as is stated in v4, this is impossible.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Heb. 6:4-6

[Candidus]

Tericl2,

I have checked the lexicon and the commentaries to try to understand just what you are getting at here. I am still missing it. This verse plainly states It is impossible if you have been enlightened, etc and then fall away to "be brought back to repentance. Why???

The verse gives the answer as to why it is impossible. It is not based upon the falling away, but upon "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

It is saying something to the effect that if we have a change of heart about the efficacy of the atonement of Christ as a truth, reject it as our means of salvation, and as a present act we but Jesus back up on the cross in our hearts and minds, in that state, repentance is impossible as long as we are doing this. This is not a singular act (aorist), or some isolated thing of the past, but an active present activity of the ones described.

The present tense "crucifying afresh" is the condition that makes repentance impossible as long as they are engaged in the activity.

I hope that is a little clearer.

p.S. I see we are neighbors :D

[tericl2]

Candidus,

We are neighbors. I didn't even notice! It's nice to see a fellow Okie on here. :)


Back to the discussion though....I guess i just don't read it that way. I have always read it that if we make the conscious decision to turn away from God (which i think is probably impossible btw, if you are truly saved) then it is impossible to be "saved" again because that is what would be looked at as "crucifying Christ afresh".
I respect your opinion and interpretation of the verse, however.

Here is a link that explains it much better than i can. it is from John Gill's Exposition of the Bible. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=heb&chapter=6&verse=6
This points out what i think i have been remiss in mentioning. This passage is really talking about those that have professed a belief, but have never had a true belief and then turned away from God, even to the point of hating him and persecuting other Christians. It would be impossible for those to then come back to Christ.

originally i posted this in reference to the belief that you can lose your salvation and that if you believe that, then by this verse, it would be impossible to come back to his saving grace.

[Watchman4hm]

salvation can be lost...

Unfortunately, not all who accept the Lord as Savior will stay faithful. Some will move forward in Christ and live a godly life. Some will live a life of battling against the flesh and often lose the battle. Some will battle the devil and make the enemy regret their salvation greatly. One thing is certain, every saint will face temptation. Even Jesus went into the wilderness, where the devil tempted Him. The thief on the cross, was tempted through the vile statements of the other thief in the moments before their deaths.

We, as Christians, have two sides from which to choose. It would be nice if the choice was made final in the moment of salvation... but it is not. We must choose between God and the devil on a nearly daily basis. The tempter, the devil, is the arch-enemy of God. The idea of a personal devil is often ridiculed.

Satan is not a being with horns and a pitchfork... He is an angel of light, one of the former arch-angels of God. He rebelled against God long ago. He is a real personality. He walks, speaks, thinks, rules...

He has been given many names...
the devil,
Satan,
Lucifer,
etc.,

Satan is still subservient, and can do only what God allows. He is not omnipresent (everywhere present). He uses many other fallen angels, and demonic spirits to aid his evil plans. He is not omniscient (all-knowing), but he is wily. He is not omnipotent (all-powerful), but he is too strong for us to conquer without Jesus. He is our enemy... He works against Christians.

This devil will encourage the fleshly nature of Christians to return to its dominance over the spirit of man that yielded to God's Spirit at the moment of salvation. This encouragement to sin is called TEMPTATION. We, as Christians, will need to battle temptation often.

There is a way of escape. God promises to give us power over temptation, and be able to overcome. Jesus faithfully makes sure we can win.

I Corinthians 10:13
"God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able, but will with the temptation, make a way of escape."

God does expect us to avail ourselves of the resources that He has offered. If we fail to put on the armor of God, we contribute to our own defeat.

Ephesians 6:11
"Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Also, God has instructed us to "watch and pray". "Watch" comes from the Greek word -
"gregoreo"
which means "to stay awake, to stay alert." We need to be on guard against temptation. We need to stay awake spiritually. When temptation enters your mind, you need enough spiritual awareness, that you know to start praying. Pray for victory, fight with the Word of God...

Fear sin! Hate sin! Hate the thought of being brought back down into the despair of being defeated by the devil. Chrysostom, a fourth century Christian, said, "I fear nothing but sin." We too need to stay alert to the possibility of sinning. When tempted and held by Potiphar's wife, Joseph fled quickly from her. He ran from temptation, and didn't give it a chance.


Whenever we get out of line with God's plan for us, we begin to backslide. It is possible to lose one's salvation. Your name can be removed from the Book of Life.

Revelation 22:19
"...God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life..."

We must continue in relationship with Jesus, to have salvation.

John 8:31
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed..."

John15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in
him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do
nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is
withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and
they are burned.

The Bible predicts that in the last days, many will backslide.

I Timothy 4:1
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils..."

Backsliders are like a troubled sea. They are restless, miserable, and unsatisfied. They substitute sex, wine, drugs, worldly pleasures, etc. for the satisfaction they once had with God. They cannot escape the guilt they have. They have no hope for the future.

Some segments of Christianity have tried to assuage the misery of backsliders by saying that once a person is saved, they are eternally saved. This is a distortion of Scripture.

The debate concerns a misunderstanding of some words. The words "foreknowledge, predestination, preordain, sovereignty, free will, and election" are debated hotly. What we need is a look into the Word of God.

Romans 8:29-30
"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called: whom He called, them He also justified: whom He justified, them He also glorified..."

This shows that God did predestinate some to have special blessings. The ones that He predestinated to these blessings, are not a select group that He has chosen to save, and allow the others to be damned. No! God predestinated those that He foreknew would choose of their own free will to accept Him. To those, He has planned to "make all things work together for good" in their lives.

II Peter 1:1-2
"...elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..."

What makes us to be the "elect" and special chosen ones of the Lord is the fact that we chose of our own free will to be saved. God in His foreknowledge foreknows ahead of time what we shall choose.

Ephesians 1:1,5,11
"to the saints... having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will... in Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all thing after the counsel of His own will..."

Foreknowledge is knowing beforehand certain events that will happen. God knows, and has known all of history since the beginning. He is omniscience, and knows every detail of eternity. Foreknowledge is not causative. Just because God foreknows, does not mean the He causes them to happen. He has allowed mankind the free will to choose.

Predestination means to determine beforehand. God has predestinated certain events to occur in our lives, blessings, and good things (as mentioned in Romans 8:28). Those that He foreknows will accept Him, He works in their lives to bless and protect them from a devil who wants to harm and destroy.

The sovereignty of God is His supreme power and absolute dominion over all creation. Some teach that God chooses to save some, and damn others. As a child will choose some toys to keep and toss away others, they think God does this with sinful mankind. Yet, the Bible tells us that God is "not willing that any should perish." (II Peter 3:8) The Bible also says that "God so loved the WORLD" (John 3:16) So if God were to choose to save some, no matter what their free will would say... He would choose to make all of the world choose to be saved. He does not make us robots to do only as made to do. No! He has given us a free will so we can choose. He appreciates our love and worship - when He sees it coming from a willing heart. None of us want to come home to a mate that we wind up and it recites "I LOVE YOU!" No, we want a mate who can choose to love us, not a robotic recitation that would mean nothing . JDL

[SenseiPiccolo]

YES!!!
Once your saved you have ETERNAL LIFE!!!
Blaspheme against the holy GHOST is an unpardonable sin--
but youll still be saved-- have Eteranl Life.
^_^
if ya dont agree--
just read the King James BIBLE
^_^
Love ya,
^_^

[Apologist]

Originally posted by SenseiPiccolo
K.J.B. (King James BIBLE) is the TRUE INFALIABLE WORD of GOD-- anything else is a LIE straight from Satan!!



I would like to see proof of that? It is sad that people are indoctrinating their children with this kind of rediculous thinking.


God Bless

[BuzzBeer]

If I'm drowing and the lifeguard rescues me, why would I want to be continued to be saved?

(edited for content)Blackwing

[WannaBeLikeHim]

I beleive one cannot loose their salvation. As I continue in growing, I come to those places where I must ask questions, for without them I would not grow. So please help me to understand, Why would one say they counld loose their salvation? Would that make Jesus's death null? Would salvation not become works instead of grace? Would that mean that God's word is valiable? Thanks in advance for another insight.

Loving Him because He first Loved Me!

[HITR]

Well, I admittedly haven't read most of the posts in this thread, and I'll have to go back and do that. Anyway, I reluctantly chose the 'one can backslide and lose their salvation'...reluctantly. That's pretty misleading, imho, with regard to the OSnAS view held. It almost makes it sound as though someone can lose their salvation in the same manner as losing a set of car keys. A person goes through a trying period, perhaps isn't walking the walk very well, and **poof** salvation is gone. With that, I adamently disagree.

While I do not subscribe to the OSAS view, I do not subscribe to salvation by works. Salvation is only through grace by faith in Christ, and that alone. So, where does that leave me as a OSnAS advocate? It is not a matter of works, or even being what many call 'backslidden'. It is a matter of faith...and faith alone. So the question would really be this (at least, imo)...can a person who has true faith in God eventually draw back to the point where their faith has wilted away? Can one who is born again eventually deny Christ, willfully? I believe that yes, they can. I have seen this occur, which is why I could not subscribe to the 'they were never really saved to begin with' view. Nor am I able to believe that salvation is anything less than abiding in Him, and Him in us. So that leaves me with OSnAS, as referenced in Hebrews. :)

Oh, yeah...I don't know if this was mentioned, but with regard to option number 2: 'Yes, one is always saved unless the blaspheme the Holy Spirit' - if this is true, wouldn't that necessarily be OSnAS, since they were saved, they blasphemed the Spirit, and weren't saved? ;) Just a thought...

Love in Christ, HITR

[CoramDeo]

i just don't think that salvation is a conditional covenant. And Scripture is bent, twisted, and taken out of context to say almost anything. Peace.

CoramDeo

[edjones]

Dr. Loh , if I may ask what is your belief?
ed

[Hishandmaiden]

I really don't know. I am not God.

[LouisBooth]

so if you are perfect all your life...have perfect faith all your life, slip up for one second and don't have faith, die, you go to hell? I have a hard time beleive that one, sorry.

[BK]

I'm kind of mixed on this subject.
I believe you can be saved and fall into backsliding and still be saved, because God said he would chasten you like disobedient children , but would not cast you out.
Your works (your reward) would simply be burned up during judgement and you would suffer a loss. You would still get into Heaven, but by the fires of Hell.
On the other hand I believe that if you start to rely on your works (good deeds) to get you into Heaven or your Baptism or whatever instead of pure faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, then your gonna have a problem.
As we all know, the works you do on Earth only add to your treasures in Heaven, the only way to Heaven is through Faith in Jesus...
We have an awesome Lord, don't we :clap:

[Paradigmaster]

well, okay, here's an attempt at backing up my vote for the "backsliding" thing:

Someon can live thier life contrary to God, but see the light near the end of it and be saved. (As long as they didnt try to PLAN to sin, sin, sin, and then say "Oh, yeah, i believe!".
So it makes sence that someone can be like, "Oh, yeah, i love God, I love others, I love myself." ..and then towards the end of their life, reject God. WE have free will every nanosecond of our lives. We choose instant to instant to accept God. We have to choose to accpet God when we die and have the Big Choice to accpet of reject God.

[Brother_Joey_Gowdy]

Originally posted by rpggal
I really don't know. I am not God.

The Bible says this is given that you may know- IF you have the Son- You have life- IF you have not the Son you have not life.

:)

Once saved Always saved!!

:)

[TheUnknown]

So where's the fifth option, there's no such thing as being saved. Cos you know, there are some ppl who believe that. :)

Just wondering.

[Redeemed1]

I couldn't vote. I do believe that we can choose to give up our salvation, but I don't think backsliding is what does it. If salvation comes through faith in who Christ is and what He has done, not through works, then I believe that it is not by works that salvation is lost, (i.e. "one sin too many") but by the choice to remove our faith in Who He is. To say that we CANNOT choose to stop believing, is to say that upon salvation our free will is removed from us. To say that if a person chooses to stop believing, then they were never really saved to begin with, is a copout IMO.

[bcrick]

A reflection on some words of Jesus:
MT 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
MT 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Is not Jesus saying that if the days of tribulation were not to be cut short, even the "elect" 'those who are currently enjoying the salvation of God' would succumb and fall out of God's Grace.

I believe that salvation is not a onetime event, but, a process. I have been 'saved', I am being 'saved', and I shall be saved. All three are true statements. All this providing I continue to place myself under the Lordship of Christ Jesus. Christ will not allow anyone or anything to take away my salvation that He has granted me by His Grace,
Hence 'Once saved, always saved'. I can though choose to surrender my salvation.

[Apologist]

Originally posted by Redeemed1
I couldn't vote. I do believe that we can choose to give up our salvation, but I don't think backsliding is what does it. If salvation comes through faith in who Christ is and what He has done, not through works, then I believe that it is not by works that salvation is lost, (i.e. "one sin too many") but by the choice to remove our faith in Who He is. To say that we CANNOT choose to stop believing, is to say that upon salvation our free will is removed from us. To say that if a person chooses to stop believing, then they were never really saved to begin with, is a copout IMO.

With all due respect I disagree.
How can we become a new creation in Christ and then give that newness of life away?
Jesus said in John 6:39-40: 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
I believe this teaching of Jesus is clear that we cannot lose our salvation.

God Bless

[Brother_Joey_Gowdy]

Originally posted by Apologist


With all due respect I disagree.
How can we become a new creation in Christ and then give that newness of life away?
Jesus said in John 6:39-40: 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
I believe this teaching of Jesus is clear that we cannot lose our salvation.

God Bless


AMEN!!
:clap:

[justGina]

Originally posted by oncewaslost
well, i believe that if you could lose your salvation then that is saying that God is not all powerful and therefore saying that God's not who he is. Romans 8:38-39

Amen! Very well said. :clap:

[ANITA]

I AM SO GLAD I GOT THE RECOMMENDATION FOR THIS SITE IT IS A BLESING

[Karen]

No is what I voted, but not exactly the way you wrote it.

I believe a person can walk away from God's grace intentionally. I don't believe that you can sin and lose your salvation - there is just no Scriptural backing for such a position...

Karen

[Lazarus]

When I put my trust in Jesus for my Salvation, it was unconditional. My "performance" has nothing to do with it from that point on. He is the author of my Salvation. It's all in his hands, so who can take away our Salvation from Christ? If it is not of our own works, then how can we undo it? Can you picture Jesus writing your name in the Book of Life when your Saved, and then erasing it when you "turn away"? Since our name is wrote in his blood, NOTHING can erase it!
:bow: Glory to God!

[Ben johnson]

I AM SO GLAD I GOT THE RECOMMENDATION FOR THIS SITE IT IS A BLESINGHello, Anita! Welcome! My "performance" has nothing to do with it from that point on.Really? "But he who endures to the end will be saved" Matt24:13, Mk13:13 "By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-SOULS." Lk21:19 He is the author of my Salvation."Fix our eyes upon Jesus, the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith..." Heb12:2

But "AUTHOR" is "Archegos", properly translated "leader, prince, pioneer". And "FINISHER" is "teleiotes", "perfector---one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith". It's all in his hands, so who can take away our Salvation from Christ?"Take care, brethren, that there not be found in any of you and evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, ...lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance FIRM UNTIL THE END." Heb3:12-14

"Brethren, if any of you wander from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul ("PSUCHE"---see Rev20:4) from death ("THANATOS"---physical death with implication of Hell) and covered a multitude of sins." Jms5:19-20

"Watch yourselves that you might not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes too far (goes on ahead) and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9 (see 1Jn5:12) Can you picture Jesus writing your name in the Book of Life when your Saved, and then erasing it when you "turn away"?"He who overcomes wil be clothed in white arments, and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father." Rev3:5

"For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; (BUT) if we DENY Him, He also will deny us! If we are unfaithful (and perish), He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2Tim2:11-13 It doesn't depend on me to stay saved"Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain of His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things (as long as your hearts displays saved fruits---see Matt7:16-20), ...the entrance ("EISODOS"-gate, entrance) to Heaven will be abundantly supplied to you. (presented as "mutually exclusive", that the gate-will-not-be-supplied-in-any-other-way) BUT he who LACKS these qualities (see the list) is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his former purification from sins". 2Pet1:9-11

Is there any other way to be "purified from sins" apart from salvation? No.

Salvation is fellowship with/in/through Jesus. 1Jn1. Salvation is never revokable NOR forsakeable by God---but it is very much rejectable by us...

PS: Arguably, Mtt19:14 says "Heaven belongs to Children". If it is impossible to enter Heaven lest your name be in the book, does it not follow that each is BORN written in the book, and gets ERASED only when the conscious decision to reject Christ occurs???

;)

[2002 Christian]

Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

[allieisme]

Well I believe that once your saved, you still have salvation, but you will still do wrong, which you would ask for forgiveness..
Still sometimes I wonder that although I'm saved I feel I'm not the best I could be, like almost I'm doing something wrong, I dont know maybe its just a feeling of unworthyness or something im not sure..:(

[Lazarus]

Since I have accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I've been baptized in the Holy Spirit, my Salvation is in his hands. If I sin, my sin has been payed for by the Blood of Jesus. Will he erase my name if I sin? No, because he paid the price for my sin. He took the punishment that I deserved. I'm in agreement with all you posted. What I'm refering to is the verse that says "we have been given into his hands", and "who can take them from me".

[Ben johnson]

Hello, Lazarus. I do think we are in agreement. If we sin, we nevertheless remain walking in the Spirit, with a continual attitude of repentence---we confess the sin and He forgives us. All that I have been contending, is that the nature of our salvation is "FELLOWSHIP with/in/through Jesus". It appears from Scripture that this fellowship requires the same attention as any Earthly friendship requires. If we abide in Him, then He will complete the work He began in us, molding us as He wills.

Welcome to the boards, BTW!

Allie, questioning our positions in Him is natural. Even the most "Spirit-filled-evangelist" has moments of doubt. Such is being Human. Have you ever read, "A Celebration of Discipline" by Anthony Campolo? There is a chapter called, "Dark Night of the Soul". Near as I can figure, there are times when we feel distant. But He has made promises, like "I will never leave nor forsake you". It's not that we ARE distant, just sometimes FEEL distant. And rather than worry, it's a great opportunity to read the Bible and pray, praising and worshipping Him. And not worrying. Spend time with Him, and you will always be close to Him. Jms4:8 Although I read in the Word that salvation is rejectable, it's not a tenuous or fearful thing. Many promises in the Word convey the strength and power that is Him IN US.

Touche', 2002Christian!

:)

[LouisBooth]

"Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
"
Just wondering..have you seen the plagues lately? No? but it says they will get them too...hmm..Think it was figuarative in nature like the whole book? Probably so :)

Another thing..
This holds exactly with OSAS. God wants all to be in the book of life, so if you deny God and are never saved, you have your part taken from the book of life. I see no conflict at all.

[SCJ]

I believe that once you are saved and indwelled with the Holy Spirit it will never leave you and you are saved. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and being Filled by the Holy Spirit are different things in my interpretation since some apostles were filled on numerous occasions. Therefore when a person backslides they are still saved, but they need to rededicate to experience filling once again.

[Ben johnson]

I believe that once you are saved and indwelled with the Holy Spirit it will never leave you and you are savedDo you believe, "And do not grieve the Holy SPirit, by whom you were sealed FOR ("Eis"---FOR, UNTO, not UNTIL) the day of redemption" (Eph4:30)---do you believe that if you WERE to "grieve the Holy SPirit", He would nevertheless remain?
Therefore when a person backslides...What does "backslide", MEAN? Does it not mean that they return to PRACTICING SIN? Do you know of any verse that says "if we continue sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries"? Or one that says, "Do you not know that God's patience and kindness are meant to bring you to repentance? But YOU, by your hard and unrepentant heart, are storing up WRATH for the DAY of wrath (judgment)?

If one is "returned to their sins", IE "forgotten their former purification", just as a "dog returns to its vomit or a sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire", how then are they repentant? Does not "backslidden" also mean "unrepentant"? Does not Jesus Himself, in Lk13:3, say: "Unless you repent, YOU WILL PERISH!"? they are still saved, but they need to rededicate to experience filling once again.Why? If backslidden are still saved, where is the motivation to rededicate???

[LouisBooth]

"do you believe that if you WERE to "grieve the Holy SPirit", He would nevertheless remain? "

That's not possible ben ;)

"Why? If backslidden are still saved, where is the motivation to rededicate???"

Ask the protigal son that. then ask his dad if he ever stopped being a son. :)

[Gunny]

[QUOTE]

John 10

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

blackhaw6

John 10:29 is the final authority on who has the power to take one that has been born again of God's Spirit out of of the Father's hand.

I believe once an individual has been born again of God's Spirit(spiritual transaction of the righteousness of Jesus Christ being imputed to the one that the Father drew to His Son) it can not be revoked or cancelled. Who shall have the power to undo that which the Father has done? You? Me? Satan? The World?

I believe that there are many, many more who have a intellectual belief in the Savior but they have not been born again of God's Spirit. Why do I beleive this?
When polls are taken 80-95% of those asked state they believe in God.(referring to polls taken in USA)
Normally, when asked if they consider themselves Christians the numbers are usually in the 60-65% percentile.

Are all these individuals born again of God's Spirit?

God's Word tells us the Holy Spirit testifies to the believer that we are indeed, born again of God's Spirit thereby having true Salvation.

I believe with every fiber of my being that if Jesus said no one can snatch them from His Father's hand that He was stating a promise and an eternal promise.

If one can be saved, then unsaved, do they become saved again, to then become unsaved again, only to be saved again, ad on infinitum.

The Holy Bible is clear that Jesus Christ died once for the sins of the world.

I believe it is blasphemy to state that the work of Jesus Christ was not sufficent or can be undone.

We are saved by faith and that not of our own but by a gift from God that no man should boast.

Search the scriptures, find a passage that states that Salvation(being born again of God's Spirit) can be undone and by who? Good luck trying to find it.

Jesus said those that were with us that are no longer with us, were never truly with us.(obviously I'm paraphrasing)

Read the parable of the seed and where it fell.

Once saved by grace(unmerited favor) by having the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to the believer, always saved.

In Christ
James

[Ben johnson]

We are saved by faith and that (faith is) not of our own but by a gift from God that no man should boast. "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that (saving-gift-of-grace) is not of yourselves, (saving-gift-of-grace) is the gift of God; (saving-gift-of-grace) is not as a result of works, lest anyone boast." Eph2:8-10

"Now faith comes from hearing (the word of God). If you confess Jesus as Lord (faith) and believe God raised Him from the dead (grace), you will be saved. For with the heart man believes (faith) resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses (the grace of Jesus' gift), resulting in salvaiton." Rom10:17,9-10

"In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials (temptations), that the proof (genuineness) of your faith, being more precious than gold ...may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at Jesus' revelation. And though you have not seen Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:6-9 John 10:29 is the final authority on who has the power to take one that has been born again of God's Spirit out of of the Father's hand. "No ONE is able to HARPAZO (sieze-or-remove-forcibly-in-deference-to-their-will) them out of the Father's hand."

I believe once an individual has been born again of God's Spirit(spiritual transaction of the righteousness of Jesus Christ being imputed to the one that the Father drew to His Son) it can not be revoked or cancelled. Who shall have the power to undo that which the Father has done? You? Me? Satan? The World? How is one "born again of God's Spirit"? Is it not, by [b]receiving CHRIST? (Jn1:12,Col2:6)
Search the scriptures, find a passage that states that Salvation(being born again of God's Spirit) can be undone and by who? Good luck trying to find it.


"Abide in Me, and I in you; If anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch,
and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Jesus,
in Jn15:4-6

"Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full
reward. Anyone who goes to far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD."
2Jn1:8-9

"For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith
comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a
salvation?" Heb2:1-3

"Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of
you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the
EISODOS-ENTRANCE/GATE of (Heaven) will be abundantly supplied to you." 2Pet1:10-11

"KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus
Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

"He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt24:13, Mk13:13.

"By your endurance you will gain your PSUCHE-souls". Luke 21:19

"Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and
suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these Hymenaeus and Alexander… "
1Timothy 1:18-20

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying
attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared
in their own conscience..." 1Timothy 4:1-6:

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

"Therefore DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, YOU MAY RECEIVE WHAT WAS PROMISED." Heb10:35-36

"But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I
myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

"do not be cause for stumbling that our weaker brethren, for whom Christ died, be ruined".
1Corinthians 8:9-13

"Obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1Pet1:9---notice it is
couched as "your faith", not "the faith that God has given you"...)

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by
the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the
grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

"Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you
should seem to have come short of it." Heb4:1


What group was "beware your adversary the devil, who prowls the world like a roaring lion", to
what group of people was that written??? 1Pet5:8

[Gunny]

1John 5:13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

The first epistle of John was written to assure them that they were in the faith and that God was true to His Word. This John is the same one that wrote, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who ever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

John in his epistle was reminding believers what he had written in his goepel. God loved. God gave. We believe. Period.

I love the prhase "that you may know that you have eternal life" 1John 5:13.
John did not say "hope so" or "wish so" or "might have" or "could have" or "maybe have."

What comfort would that be to believers?
He said "know." Asurred of; confident of; insured for eternity.

Why do believers doubt their salvation?
The first thing that creates doubt is sin in their lives.
Sin brings a definite feeling of enstrangement from God, a feeling of isolstion.

If one does sin and feels perfectly miserable, this really is an indication they belong to Him.
The non-Christian can sin all day long and not sense any isolation from God. Only God's children experience a lack of harmony with their Father.

Satan is the accuser of the brethern. When Satan attacks the doubting believer, he loves to whisper to the believer, "Well look at you, Look how you are acting. Surely, a Christian doesn't act like that."
We need the Word of God to answer Satan when he attacks the believer.

Some people have come up to me and they state, "Well I used to be saved." I always ask, "How did you get lost?" The individual will name something that they have done or thought. I tell them, John wrote, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9.

If we truly take God at His Word, and He is indeed trustworthy, we won't wonder if we are bad enough to lose it; Or good enough to keep it.

We need to believe in Christ and receive Him as our very own. There needs to be a definite decision. You may not remember the exact moment(such as the date and time), but you know that you received Christ and passed from death to life.




ROMANS 8:38-39.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



In Christ
James

[john bardell]

I think that if a person deliberatly turns away from God
and say that they no longer believe in Him or in anything supernatural then they are in danger of losing their salvation. what do others think about this?

[LouisBooth]

"what do others think about this?"

John 10:4 "When hs (Christ) has brouth out all his own, he goes on ahead of the, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. but they will never follow a strander' in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognie a strangers' voice." So we see that they don't turn away to follow another.

They will not turn it away after recieving it because they are a new creation.

[Othniel]

Lot's of great verses backing up God's support for us in our faith...but... we can't ignore scripture either:

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are wose off at the end than they were at the beginning." 2 Peter 2:20 (also look at Hebrews 6)

God would not have this in His Word unless it were possible.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

[NRutman]

It is beyond me how anyone can read Ephesians 1 & 2 and still think they are in control of their salvation. Ephesians 1:13-14 makes it clear in my mind:

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit is GUARANTEED inheritance in Heaven. Since people receive the Holy Spirit when they are saved, how can they then fall away?

Hope that helps,
Nate

[NRutman]

Originally posted by Othniel
Lot's of great verses backing up God's support for us in our faith...but... we can't ignore scripture either:

&quot;If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are wose off at the end than they were at the beginning.&quot; 2 Peter 2:20 (also look at Hebrews 6)


If you look at the context of 2 Peter 2:20, you will clearly see that Peter is not talking about those who were saved. He claims that they are in sin after sin and calls them false teachers and prophets, not the saints of God.

Hebrews 6 is a similar case. The writer is not speaking of believers. After speaking about people falling away, he writes in verses 19-20:

"We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

Since Hebrews was written to potential Jewish converts, and we know of Pauls warning against the Jewish legalists in Galatians, I think it is safe to say that the people Hebrews 6:4-5 is refering to are those who are the seed sown on rocky ground (in the parable of the sower - see Matthew 13). They hear the Word and respond to it, but have no root in the things of God. Perhaps they come thinking it will solve all of their problems or make them rich and their lives more comfortable. When they see that the faith is not the lifestyle they thought it was, they leave. These people are never genuine converts because when they find out what Christianity is really about (loving and glorifying Christ) they leave.

It's like someone going to a Honda dealership to purchase a Ford. When they find out that the dealership only sells Hondas they leave. Does this make them a Honda customer?

Hope that helps,
Nate

[ZooMom]

Just dropping my .02 in the pot.

Yes, I believe that once we are saved then we are saved forever.

However, I don't believe that we are ultimately saved until we enter Heaven.

So there you go. :)

[LouisBooth]

and I'd say both of those statements are quite scriptural.

[Julie]

The word "know" is a favorite one with John. He makes sure use of it ten times in the book of First John. We know that our sins are forgiven (3:15); that we have passed from death unto life (3:14); that we are of the Truth (3:19); that He is in us (4:13); that we have eternal life (5:13); that He answers prayer (5:13); that we have a new nature (5:18); that we shall be like Him (3:2). Glorious knowledge. Paul, the great apostle said, "I know whom I have believed."

A little orphan girl, happy in the knowledge of Christ her Saviour, was asked how she knew that she was saved, said "He says it, and that is enough for me." Is it enough for you?















1 John 5
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

[Miss Shelby]

Originally posted by ZooMom

Yes, I believe that once we are saved then we are saved forever.

However, I don't believe that we are ultimately saved until we enter Heaven.

So there you go. :)

Touche, ZooMom! :hug: :clap:

Michelle

[Ben johnson]

What comfort would that be to believers? He said "know." Assurred of; confident of; insured for eternity. "Assured" for eternity (for those who are IN CHRIST)", but not INSURED for eternity. Will you not comment on all the verses I listed in purple (page 6, post #52)?
Why do believers doubt their salvation? The first thing that creates doubt is sin in their lives. Sin brings a definite feeling of enstrangement from God, a feeling of isolation. Sin brings more than a feeling of estrangement...
It is beyond me how anyone can read Ephesians 1 & 2 and still think they are in control of their salvation. Ephesians 1:13-14 makes it clear in my mind: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory." Paul clearly says, "Having believed". Does Paul endorse "belief is a CHOICE"? "For with the heart man believes, resulting righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Rm10:9-10

Oh, and you should throw away that translation. You can easily verify with any online interlinear, Eph4:30 does NOT say "UNTIL the day of redemption", it says "EIS"---"unTO the day of redemption". It is a promise, to those who abide in Him. Eph4:30 says, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit"; please tell me, if we DO grieve Him, will He remain? If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure we shall also reign with Him; if we deny Him He will also deny us... Tell me, if we deny Him, if we do NOT endure, will we still reign with Him? If we are faithless and yet He is faithful (because He cannot deny Himself), will we still walk the streets of Heaven? (If you answer, "yes", then please tell me what salvation IS?) (2Tim2:11-13)
Anyone who has the Holy Spirit is GUARANTEED inheritance in Heaven. (It's not a guarantee, it's a promise---a promise based on our belief) Since people receive the Holy Spirit when they are saved, how can they then fall away? They received the Holy Spirit, by believing; does the Bible say that it is not possible to later, disbelieve?
If you look at the context of 2 Peter 2:20, you will clearly see that Peter is not talking about those who were saved. He claims that they are in sin after sin and calls them false teachers and prophets, not the saints of God. It's generally a good idea to read a whole thread before posting. In 2Pet2:1 are "false prophets". These FALSE ones "have eyes full of adultery, never cease from sin" (2:2:14). Never. Never saved. Never escaped. Never.

The FALSE ONES seek to entice the TRUE ONES, those who ONTOS APOFUEGO TRULY ESCAPE from they who live in error. (2:2:18)

The FALSE ones were never saved, the TRULY ESCAPED, were saved.

"For if, having escaped the defilements of the world through the true knowledge of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST...

Were the true ones saved, or were they not? Could they have "escaped the defilements of the world WITHOUT HAVING-BEEN-SAVED"? 2:1:3-4 He has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of Him who called us by His own glory and excelence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, in order that you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust."

The "ESCAPEES". are SAVED. There is no other way to escape the "corruption/defilements of the world".

Yet, they are "again entangled and overcome. Far better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness, than having KNOWN it, to turn from the Holy commandment handed to them." (2:2:21)

They were saved, they became unsaved. There is no denying this. Only devices such as "dispensationism" allows the total-rejection-of-entire-books-of-the-Bible, to support unscriptural beliefs.
[quote]Hebrews 6 is a similar case. The writer is not speaking of believers.He's not speaking of believers? [b]"PARTAKES of the Holy Spirit"? (6:4) The Holy Spirit [b]indwells the UNSAVED??? Do you believe that? After speaking about people falling away, he writes in verses 19-20: "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." Lest we be guilty of "proof-texting", pulling verses from context, let's read verses 11-12: "And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises".

Rather than jump through the great hoops required to support "OSAS", wouldn't it be far easier to just take the Word for what it says???

Salvation is "for all who believe, that they might not perish but have eternal life". Belief is a choice---from the start, until the finish.

;)

[Thunderchild]

Yes. The same comments have been made on this site any number of times.

[Slave2SinNoMore]

I found an interesting website that backs up OSAS.

Here is a portion of it, followed by the link:

Can believers lose their salvation?

Two of the most cited passages to support a loss of salvation are in the book of Hebrews. Before discussing these passages individually, I'd like to make a general point based on the context of the book. The author of Hebrews is not interested in answering the question of whether or not someone can lose their salvation. I'd go so far as to argue that it never occurred to the author that someone would attempt to apply his writings to this issue. The author's purposes in this book are primarily practical, not theological. He is trying to address a specific problem that is confronting a house church in Rome. The problem is that some Jewish Christians had decided to back off their Christian commitment and return to their cultural Judaism, undoubtedly to avoid cultural pressures and persecution. The author uses several warning passages (including the two we are about to address) to encourage them to press forward in their commitment to Christ and not shrink back to cultural Judaism.

That said, I think that a careful analysis of the passages still refutes the idea that they are referring to Christians who lose their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-9
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation. (Hebrews 6:4-9)

Verses 4 - 8 warn about the peril of experiencing true Christian fellowship and then turning away from Christ . It is impossible for such people to be brought back to repentance, and in the end such people, like land that produces thistles, are in danger of being cursed, and will ultimately be burned.

The question is whether the author is speaking of Christians here, or if he is speaking of people who enter into the context of a Christian fellowship, experience the work of the Holy Spirit and the truth of the scriptures, but who never actually accept Christ. In other words, cultural "Christians" without any actual commitment. The terms used here are all vague enough to apply to a non-Christian's experience of Christianity. "Enlightenment" (which speaks to an intellectual awakening), "tasting" of the heavenly gift (as opposed to actually receiving it), "sharing" in the Holy Spirit (as opposed to actually receiving him) are all things that can apply to a non-Christian who is fully immersed in a Christian fellowship.

The verse that conclusively argues that the people of vv. 4-8 are not Christians is verse 9: "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation." In other words, the things the author is warning about in vv. 4-8 are not things that accompany salvation. So the implication of the passage as a whole is that people who fall away are not saved people, and the terms used in vv. 4-8 are commensurate with the experience of an enlightened non-Christian.

The other passage in Hebrews is not as strong as the previous, but is often quoted in support of the view that Christians can lose their salvation:

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

This passage is not clearly referring to a Christian who is in sin. Once again, we are most likely dealing with a non-Christian who has drawn close to the truth but rejected it. The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; it is the verb form of the adjective "holy") really just means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation at all. In 1 Cor. 7:14 Paul uses it several times to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "made holy" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved!) A non-Christian can be set apart and made holy from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation. So nothing in this passage is clearly used in reference to a Christian. In fact, v. 27 seems to be referring to non-Christians, since Christians cannot be considered "enemies of God" (see Rom 5:10).

Like chapter 6, this passage is even clearer when read in context. After these verses, the author of Hebrews (just like in chapter 6) begins to contrast this behavior with his readers, who (unlike the people in the warning passage) are Christians. In v. 39 (like in Heb 6:9) he sets up the contrast that makes it clear that he was referring to non-Christians, not saved people:

But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. (Heb 10:39)
The reason this verse settles it is because the author is contrasting not only destruction and salvation, but he places belief (faith - same word as "belief" in the Greek) on the side of salvation alone. In other words, he does not talk about people who believe but shrink back. People who truly believe do not shrink back; people who shrink back do not truly believe. Thus, neither of these passages is describing a person who has faith in Christ and then falls away.


For more, go to
http://sundoulos.com/theological.aspx?in=22

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Also, other things to consider.

What happens when one "truly" believes and is born again?
That person's sin nature is crucified. It is now dead dead dead. In its place is a new spirit - the Holy Spirit of Christ. The Christian is a new creation. What influences a Christian to sin is not his nature (his spirit) - it is his flesh being tempted by Satan. If a Christian is able to "stop believing" and thus lose his salvation, does that mean teh Hopy Spirit moves out? If so, what replaces him? The sin nature? No, for it is dead. It can't be brought back to life once the Lord detroys it.

[Ben johnson]

Verses 4 - 8 warn about the peril of experiencing true Christian fellowship and then turning away from Christ . It is impossible for such people to be brought back to repentance, and in the end such people, like land that produces thistles, are in danger of being cursed, and will ultimately be burned. It is very frequently useful to go to the GREEK, to understand what is really being said. How else can we determine that James is really-really speaking of "falling-from-salvation", in 5:19-20? James says "save PSUCHE-soul from THANATOS-death"; which is translated, "eternal soul (see Rev20:4, same word)", and "physical-death-with-implication-of-eternity-in-Hell". Contrast this with 2:26, "spirit" is "PNEUMA", "body-death" is "nekros". James is undeniably speaking of believers falling-from-salvation. Again, only "dispensationism" allows the complete dismissal of the entire letters from James and Peter, claiming "They applied to the DISPENSATION between CHRIST and PENTECOST! NOT TO US!!!"

So, in the Greek, we see that Hebrews 6, REALLY says, "It is ADUNATOS-weak-powerless (impossible in THAT regard) to restore them to REPENTANCE, WHILE!!! they ARE FALLING AWAY." Present, continuing verb tense. In other Scriptures, it is clear that if they do not CONTINUE in unbelief, He will welcome them back...
The question is whether the author is speaking of Christians here, or if he is speaking of people who enter into the context of a Christian fellowship, experience the work of the Holy Spirit and the truth of the scriptures, but who never actually accept Christ. In other words, cultural "Christians" without any actual commitment. The terms used here are all vague enough to apply to a non-Christian's experience of Christianity.I don't think that's much of a question. "Partake" is "Metochos", "anew-again" is "Palin". Well, in the SECOND place, "anew-again" demands that it had ONCE BEEN there. Else it would be BEGIN, rather than "ANEW-AGAIN".

Now, in the FIRST place, you contend that "Metochos" means only SUPERFICIAL ACQUAINTANCE with the Holy Spirit, not actually PARTAKING. Well, please read Hebrews 3:1: "Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling..." And, now 3:14: "For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end". In both cases, the word, "partakers", is "METOCHOS". Can you really still say, "It's only SUPERFICIAL, not really SPIRIT-FILLED"? Are the two references in Heb3, SUPERFICIAL, not Christians? No. Neither is 6.

In 3:14, "if" is "EanPer" ("if, in case"); "hold" is "katecho" ("hold fast, keep secure, keep firm"), "beginning" is "arche" ("beginning, origin, PERSON OR THING THAT COMMENCES"); "Confidence" is "Hupostasis" ("FOUNDATION"), "steadfast" is "Bebaios" ("stable, firm, sure"), "until" is "Mechri", "end" is "Telos" ("end, eternal")

Wanna argue OSAS in light of Heb3:14? How about Col 2:22-23? :P
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. (Heb 10:39) We've discussed this too. Please read verses 10:28-36. Are you there? If the writer of Hebrews believed in "OSAS", why does he specifically say, "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified (can an UNSAVED PERSON have-been-sanctified-once???), and has insulted the Spirit of Grace? Therefore do not throw away your confidence which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, YOU MAY RECEIVE WHAT WAS PROMISED."

See if this isn't a mirror of 2Pet1:9-11: "He who LACKS these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his FORMER PURIFICATION FROM SINS (he was formerly purified---any way to paint him as "NEVER-SAVED"???). Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and election of you; for as long as you practice these things (demonstrate fruits commensurate with HAVING-BEEN-SAVED---see Matt7:16-20), you will never STUMBLE (Greek: "Become wretched..."); for in this way the EISODOS-GATE of Heaven will be abundantly provided to you"

Will a LESSER GATE OF HEAVEN be provided for those who have FORGOTTEN THEIR FORMER PURIFICATION? Or will the ONE GATE be NOT-SO-ABUNDANTLY PROVIDED (but will still BE provided) to they-who-forgot-their-purification?

Can you paint ANY of these verses into a "OSAS" perspective?
What happens when one "truly" believes and is born again? That person's sin nature is crucified. It is now dead dead dead. In its place is a new spirit - the Holy Spirit of Christ. The Christian is a new creation. What influences a Christian to sin is not his nature (his spirit) - it is his flesh being tempted by Satan. If a Christian is able to "stop believing" and thus lose his salvation, does that mean the Holy Spirit moves out? If so, what replaces him? The sin nature? No, for it is dead. It can't be brought back to life once the Lord destroys it.Paul disagrees with you. He says the "old nature" IS dead, but NOT gone. And when we "walk in the Spirit" (abide in Christ---not doing works), it is dead, we do not sin. CANNOT sin according to John (1Jn3:9). But when we "walk in the FLESH" (see Paul's whole discussion in Romans 6, 7 and 8), the sin-nature lives again, we are no longer a "new creation", we sin (John agrees in 1:1:8-9).

If our WALK is CONTINUAL repentance, our "sin nature" is put to death daily, by walking-in-the-Spirit/abiding-in-Christ (not by works)---and we live. But if we REMAIN "walking in the flesh", our sin nature REMAINS alive, and we do NOT "abide in Christ". We have fallen...

As James says, "Each man is tempted by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." 1:14-15

:)

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Paul disagrees with you. He says the "old nature" IS dead, but NOT gone. And when we "walk in the Spirit" (abide in Christ---not doing works), it is dead, we do not sin. CANNOT sin according to John (1Jn3:9). But when we "walk in the FLESH" (see Paul's whole discussion in Romans 6, 7 and 8), the sin-nature lives again, we are no longer a "new creation", we sin (John agrees in 1:1:8-9).

If our WALK is CONTINUAL repentance, our "sin nature" is put to death daily, by walking-in-the-Spirit/abiding-in-Christ (not by works)---and we live. But if we REMAIN "walking in the flesh", our sin nature REMAINS alive, and we do NOT "abide in Christ". We have fallen...

As James says, "Each man is tempted by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." 1:14-15

:)
Where does Paul say the old nature is dead but not gone? Are you referring to the "struggle" that Paul describes in Romans? If so, some translations have it as "flesh" not "sin nature". There is a big difference there. The nature is the spirit. The flesh is, well, the flesh, and it remembers and acts upon old habits. Either that, or it is directly tempted by Satan's demons. The battleground is not in the spirit, it is in the mind. That's why we are to "renew our minds daily". Not "crucify our sin nature daily". There is no place in the Bible that says our sin nature is being crucified daily. But there are indeed place that speak of it as a one time deal.

If our temptation comes from within our spirit , not from the lies and whispers of demons and their satanic external influence, what role do demons play in the world? Do you believe in Spiritual warfare? If so, what do you call spiritual warfare?

If the two natures are struggling within us, where is the victory? That is no victory. The Bible doesn't just say we will get victory, it says we have victory.

How can a sin nature be "dead, but not gone"? I really don't understand that at all.

[Ben johnson]

Hello, S2SNM.

OK, Romans 6 is the true baptism, the "immersion into Christ" (6:1-11, Eph4:5). If the "old nature" is gone FOREVER, why does he admonish us in 6:12 to "therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal bodies, do not go on presenting your body to sin ...but present yourselves to God"? He continues with further admonishments.

Chapter 7 is said to be "referring to BEFORE he was saved"---but it doesn't really say that. It says "there are TWO natures, and the old wars with the new" (23). He cries out for deliverance: "Oh wretched man that I am, who will set me free from the body of this death?" And answers his own question, especially beginning in chapter 8.

"For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For set-on-flesh is death, but set-on-Spirit is life. ...So we are under obligation not to the flesh, not to live according to the flesh (do not walk in the flesh), for if you live according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body (crucifying daily the flesh), you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of GOd are sons of God."

Well, you can read the whole chapter for yourself. It is not a "we-will-ourselves-to-walk-in-the-Spirit", but rather, "we allow the SPIRIT to GUIDE us, enabling us to put-to-death-the-flesh". The whole thing, is "abiding/fellowship through Christ".

Clear-as-mud?

;)

[Gunny]

Spirit Redeemed/Saved.(Through the atoning death of Jesus who bore our sin in His flesh(wages of sin=death)

Flesh/body,isn't saved.(It's corrupt and shall perish)


James

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by gunnysgt
Spirit Redeemed/Saved.(Through the atoning death of Jesus who bore our sin in His flesh(wages of sin=death)
Flesh/body,isn't saved.(It's corrupt and shall perish)
James
Exactly.

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hello, S2SNM.
OK, Romans 6 is the true baptism, the "immersion into Christ" (6:1-11, Eph4:5). If the "old nature" is gone FOREVER, why does he admonish us in 6:12 to "therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal bodies, do not go on presenting your body to sin ...but present yourselves to God"? He continues with further admonishments.
Chapter 7 is said to be "referring to BEFORE he was saved"---but it doesn't really say that. It says "there are TWO natures, and the old wars with the new" (23). He cries out for deliverance: "Oh wretched man that I am, who will set me free from the body of this death?" And answers his own question, especially beginning in chapter 8.
"For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For set-on-flesh is death, but set-on-Spirit is life. ...So we are under obligation not to the flesh, not to live according to the flesh (do not walk in the flesh), for if you live according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body (crucifying daily the flesh), you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of GOd are sons of God."
Well, you can read the whole chapter for yourself. It is not a "we-will-ourselves-to-walk-in-the-Spirit", but rather, "we allow the SPIRIT to GUIDE us, enabling us to put-to-death-the-flesh". The whole thing, is "abiding/fellowship through Christ".
Clear-as-mud?
;)
Hi
As gunnysgt said, the spirit is redeemed and is perfect, the flesh is not and shall perish. The struggle a Christian faces is not between 2 natures. It is between the spirit (the nature) and the flesh.

Also, don't worry, I'm not ignoring what you wrote previously about those verse. I will try to address them later today when I have more time (my family is in town this morning so I need to get back to them).
I am glad this is not turning into an angry discussion. Sometime, even amongst Christians, disagreements can get ugly. I recently had someone who proclaims to be a Christian tell me to go to you know where because I stated my belief that people who deny the deity of Christ are not Christians.
Everyone, have a great day and let God take control!
Mike

[Ben johnson]

Spirit Redeemed/Saved.(Through the atoning death of Jesus who bore our sin in His flesh(wages of sin=death) Flesh/body,isn't saved.(It's corrupt and shall perish) What does this mean? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? (Rm6:1-2) Are we to "let sin reign in our mortal bodies"? (Rm6:12) If our SPIRIT is saved, do our bodies nevertheless "walk in sin"? (Rm8:3-4)

In my Bible, which is a NAS by Hollman, on page 983, verses Rm7:14-25 carry the sub-heading, "The Conflict of the Two Natures". This idea then is not just from Ben johnson alone. While we live, we are subject to weak flesh. If our "sin-nature" is dead-and-gone-forever, then we are sinless from the day of our salvation forward...
Also, don't worry, I'm not ignoring what you wrote previously about those verse.Yeah I was feeling neglected about post #67---that was quite a bit of work... ;)
I am glad this is not turning into an angry discussion.Naw, we don't do that. Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit." The point of discussions is not to be "right or wrong", but fellowship, mutual building and growth, and always love. Even if one of us IS right, what profit is there in "beating someone over the head with it", making them feel bad? Is love increased? Are they edified?

"In all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity (soundness) of doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, that ...they may have nothing bad to say about us..." Titus2:7-8

Welcome to the boards, BTW! :) I joined King's Tavern July 25, 2000; when it merged with here, some of us can't get our sign-up dates changed...

[Ben johnson]

OOPS! Me make boo-boo: Wanna argue OSAS in light of Heb3:14? How about Col 2:22-23?

Please change to Col 1:22-23

Sorry 'bout dat...

:)

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
What does this mean? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? (Rm6:1-2) Are we to "let sin reign in our mortal bodies"? (Rm6:12) If our SPIRIT is saved, do our bodies nevertheless "walk in sin"? (Rm8:3-4)

In my Bible, which is a NAS by Hollman, on page 983, verses Rm7:14-25 carry the sub-heading, "The Conflict of the Two Natures". This idea then is not just from Ben johnson alone. While we live, we are subject to weak flesh. If our "sin-nature" is dead-and-gone-forever, then we are sinless from the day of our salvation forward...

No, we are not to continue in sin that grace abounds, Heaven Forbid! Why should we go against our new nature, that of Christ, to follow the ways of the old nature, which is dead? But sometimes we do, because we believe the lies the demons whisper in our ears "Oh go ahead. You're just human. After all, it is your nature". To that, I say "No, it is not. Our new nature, our identity in fact, is Christ".
I know that Ben johnson is not the only one who believes that the old nature is still with us. I totally believe that in your NAS bible is the sub-heading "The conflict of the two natures". But please remember that
the sub-headings were not in Paul's original writings. Paul wrote these completely in letter form. Therefore, the sub-headings were added by translators, to help organize the text. I believe that sub-heading is wrong. I would have written the sub-heading thusly:
The Conflict between the Spirit and The flesh, which tempted and deceived by Satan and his demons
As far as you saying that the belief that the sin nature is dead and gone forever means that we are sinless from the day of our salvation forward, you are right in a way. In our spirit, we are indeed sinless. However, teh flesh does indeed sin, because our new nature will not force itself upon the flesh. The flesh will sin, but not because of some old nature pushing it to sin, but because of temptation and lies from demonic influences.

[Slave2SinNoMore]

Ben johnson said:
It is very frequently useful to go to the GREEK, to understand what is really being said. How else can we determine that James is really-really speaking of "falling-from-salvation", in 5:19-20? James says "save PSUCHE-soul from THANATOS-death"; which is translated, "eternal soul (see Rev20:4, same word)", and "physical-death-with-implication-of-eternity-in-Hell". Contrast this with
2:26, "spirit" is "PNEUMA", "body-death" is "nekros". James is undeniably speaking of believers falling-from-salvation. Again, only "dispensationism" allows the complete dismissal of the entire letters from James and Peter, claiming "They applied to the DISPENSATION between CHRIST and PENTECOST! NOT TO US!!!"

S2SNM says:
Look at verse 19 again. In the Greek, the phrase "wanders (or strays) from the truth" is a phrase of possibility, which is to say that it is possible that within the walls of the church there will be those who aren’t saved and will stray from what they have heard. The Greek word here is planao , which means ]"to be lead astray, to wander, or be deceived."[/I[/COLOR] ] It is from the same root that meant [I]planet , which was something that wandered through the sky. It is used a number of times in the New Testament, but it usually refers to the condition of an unsaved person.

In Matthew 22:29 Jesus says, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." That word translated "error" is the same word—planao —and is the condition of an unsaved person.

Paul says in Titus 3:3-7,
At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
The word "deceived" is this same word again. It refers to a person’s pre-salvation sinful state. Here in James, these are people who have never been saved. They are unbelievers, even though they may have claimed to believe, but now have wandered away from what they have heard. What have they heard? The Truth. James 1:18 tells us that Word of Truth is the Gospel message itself, in other words, the way of salvation. This is someone therefore who has rejected, despite his or her claims to the contrary, the message of salvation.

These people may surprise us, but not God. In John’s gospel, we see that the disciples were oblivious to Judas’ false faith, but Jesus wasn’t. In John 6:70-71 Jesus called him a devil. We might be shocked or mistaken by some who were once in the church and claimed faith. They may have gone along for the ride, been a part of the action, yet their heart was never true.

Jesus said in John 8:31 "If you continue in the truth you are my real disciple,"

and so consequently if you don’t, you never were. You see, a true Christian will never reject the truth. A true Christian will never turn his back on the Gospel and the God who saves. Oh, we may fall into sin or disobedience for a time, or have momentary doubts, but we will not wander away from or leave the saving truth.

Jesus makes the unequivocal promise in John 5:24,
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Jesus gives a similar absolute, with no qualifications, promise in John 6:51,
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever."

And in John 10:27-28 he proclaims again clearly,
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

When God makes a promise He makes good on it. ALWAYS. His promises aren’t dependent on us. So we see that these are people who made a claim, never had real faith, and now are wandering or away from the truth. Do you know anybody who has made some claim, but then later denied the truth?

Look at the other indications. Verse 20 speaks of someone in the "error of his way." This is from the same root word as "wander." "His way" equals "His path of life or his lifestyle." Errant living maybe the clearest evidence of "dead" faith. A lifestyle which is a rejection of the principles of the word of God. Self-styled Christianity—their own way, not God’s way. A life that is a contradiction of God’s word. This is evidence of a spurious, pseudo or false faith.

Look again at verse 20. This person is called a "sinner." This is very important. This term is only used in the Bible of unregenerate, unsaved, never been saved, lost, unbelieving people. In fact it refers to someone who is a hardened unbeliever or one who is devoted to sin—a slave to sin. It is the character of an unbeliever. The word is used in some 64 scriptures in the Bible. I won’t quote them all, but look how many different authors use the word, often in direct contrast to the “righteous”:

Genesis 13:13 - "Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the Lord."
Psalms 1:5 - "Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous."
Psalms 51:13 - "Then I will teach transgressors Thy ways, And sinners will be converted to Thee."
Proverbs 11:31 - "If the righteous will be rewarded in the earth, How much more the wicked and the sinner!"
Isaiah 13:9 - "Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it."
Matthew 9:13 - "But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion, and not
sacrifice,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Luke 5:32 - "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
Luke 15:7 - "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."
Romans 5:8 - "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
1 Timothy 1:15 - "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."

"Sinners" is ALWAYS used to refer to those outside the kingdom. To compare, 1 John 3:8-10 says:
The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

And so John says essentially the same thing, the "sinner" cannot be a Christian. While a Christian may sin, he will never be characterized as a "sinner." These are the people that James is talking about, ones who have perhaps been a part of the church, but their nature never really was changed, they never were truly of God.

John says again in 1 John 2:19:
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us.

These are people who went out. They were deceiving themselves and perhaps others us as well, but they are lost.

Now, look at verse 20 again. "Whoever turns"— that is the Greek word epistrepho . It can refer to a physical turning or facing a different direction. But it often refers to being turned to God in a one-time act of salvation. This further supports the idea that the people James is talking about here are unbelievers. Notice how the term is used in the following scriptures:

Matthew 18:3 - "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Acts 3:19 - "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out"
Acts 11:21 – "The Lord’s hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord."
Acts 15:19 - ‘‘It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God."
Acts 26:18 – "I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me."
Acts 26:20 – "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their
repentance by their deeds."
2 Corinthians 3:14-18 – "But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."
1 Thessalonians 1:9 – "You turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God"

They speak of salvation. Conversion. That is the objective. Salvation. In fact, the word "save" here is the Greek word sozo , which is the dominant word used for salvation in the New Testament.With salvation comes forgiveness. James says that salvation will cover a multitude of sin. We want to turn sinners from sin in order that they may be saved, and in being saved that their sins will be forgiven—no matter how many of them there are. This is a description of the extent of God’s forgiveness. God in His grace forgives multitudes of sins.

John promises us in 1 John 1:9 that, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Our sins are covered and buried.

Psalm 103:12 encourages us with the words:
For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; 12 as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.”

and Psalm 32:1 states, "Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered."

Ben johnson said:
Wanna argue OSAS in light of Heb3:14?
<