Do you believe that once you are saved, you are always saved?

[Simon..]

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. Jn 10:9

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved. Acts 16:31

We CAN know that we are saved, because Jesus had said so! If we confess our sins and accept him as Lord - then we are saved.
Perhaps what we need to consider now our righteousness? The greek for this actually means something like this - we are righteouss and we are also being made righteousness....

[Carrye]

Perhaps what we need to consider now our righteousness? The greek tense for this actually means something like this - we are righteouss and we are also being made righteousness....
That's part of the problem. The Greek can mean one of a few things, as you point out, and it can also mean justify or justification. And even if we try to speak of righteousness straight-out, there's still a question of whose righteousness we're talking about. It's not as cut and dry as it might appear.

Also, how can one know he is saved if he is instructed to work out his salvation with fear and trembling?

[uturn]

[QUOTE=keyarchThis is probably true of those that do get saved. But, as a percentage of the world’s population, it’s more likely not to get saved in the first place. ] Do you believe that the unfortunates who gather crumbs from under the table are with out hope? Are those who have never heard the gospel in its formal presentation, but demonstrate a predisposition to it in the limited circumstances of their lives abandoned? Does Gods' hand reach beyond the boundaries of our orthedoxy to redeem those outside of our theological framework? If judgment is dispensed through the revelation of the creation why not grace? Rom. 1,2,3. Thanks for your message. I'm floundering around here. Just starting to figure this site out.

[uturn]

This is probably true of those that do get saved. But, as a percentage of the world’s population, it’s more likely not to get saved in the first place.




Do you believe that the unfortunates who gather crumbs from under the table are with out hope? Are those who have never heard the gospel in its formal presentation, but demonstrate a predisposition to it in the limited circumstances of their lives abandoned? Does Gods' hand reach beyond the boundaries of our orthedoxy to redeem those outside of our theological framework? If judgment is dispensed through the revelation of the creation why not grace? Rom. 1,2,3. Thanks for your message. I'm floundering around here. Just starting to figure this site out

[gmedwards]

fear and trembling...this (to me) is about continuing to work out what it means to live as saved people, to work out what that means for our lives on a day to day basis. i believ we must claim the promise of salvation from God for each of us. but i do acknowldge that there is always some "unknowability" with God, Paul writes that we see through a glass darky, and only when we meet God face to face will we see in full.

[bubblefish]

I believe that after you are saved you can loose your faith..but if you turn back to God and ask for forgiveness and begin to follow him again you can be saved....as long as you are trully sorry for leaving him

[keyarch]

Do you believe that the unfortunates who gather crumbs from under the table are with out hope? I don’t think it makes any difference. Fortune is said to be more of a barrier than being unfortunate. Are those who have never heard the gospel in its formal presentation, but demonstrate a predisposition to it in the limited circumstances of their lives abandoned?Based on Romans 2:12-15 , I think that those who have not heard the “law” or the gospel but are found righteous by God may find grace upon judgment (such as young children). But, there is no way for us to know if they will or not because we are not God and don’t know their heart. If judgment is dispensed through the revelation of the creation why not grace? Rom. 1,2,3. I don’t think we can discern any rules by which grace will automatically be given, with the exception of salvation thru Christ.

[keyarch]

Christ saved the human race. The fact that saved people decide they wish to join the opposition is a separate matter.

BTW, I know the history of the 'title' Lucifer.
Ok, now I get the picture. In your interpretation of scripture, we are all saved by default and can only loose that salvation by joining the opposition (Satan), right?. If that were true, it would be one of the biggest contradictions in the Bible that I could even conceive of.

I’m curious - what “religion” you are a trained minister in? Do you teach this doctrine to others? Also, if you know the history of the ‘title’ Lucifer, why would you use it in relation to Satan?

[uturn]

I don’t think it makes any difference. Fortune is said to be more of a barrier than being unfortunate. Based on Romans 2:12-15 , I think that those who have not heard the “law” or the gospel but are found righteous by God may find grace upon judgment (such as young children). But, there is no way for us to know if they will or not because we are not God and don’t know their heart. I don’t think we can discern any rules by which grace will automatically be given, with the exception of salvation thru Christ.[/font]Is it not grace that we are born or exist at all? Does our death in Adams' sin not doom us from existence had not Christ stepped in and salvaged the entire race from the penalty of his rebellion? The miracle of the new birth is predicated upon the miracle of even being born at all! I agree that salvation and grace both come from Christ, but they turn up in unexpected places even to an apparant enemy of God, like Baalam interrupted by the ass he's riding up the mountain to curse Israel.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. Jn 10:9

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved. Acts 16:31

We CAN know that we are saved, because Jesus had said so! If we confess our sins and accept him as Lord - then we are saved.
Not all who say "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven.

[statrei]

Ok, now I get the picture. In your interpretation of scripture, we are all saved by default and can only loose that salvation by joining the opposition (Satan), right?. If that were true, it would be one of the biggest contradictions in the Bible that I could even conceive of.Are you simply going to make a claim without "showing your work?" Demonstrate to us where the contradiction lies. Clear communication is vital for effective dialogue.

[statrei]

Actually, it is far more likely that John 17 refers to the finsihing of bringing glory to God the Father, as said in the first part of the sentence. There is a great doubt about what He is talking about in 17, moreso than in 19You are joking. You are following the crowd in believing that saying "It" is more specific than "the work you gave me to do." This is unbelievable. This is what happens when you allow some designated authority to determine what the message of the Bible is. You end up believing "rumors." (See John 21:23).

[statrei]

Not much else. But for the determination of when we are saved, we need much much moreAre you saying you do not know when Jesus conquered Satan? Or are you saying you are not certain He has conquered him yet? Which is it?

[keyarch]

Are you simply going to make a claim without "showing your work?" Demonstrate to us where the contradiction lies. Clear communication is vital for effective dialogue."1000 milliDarians is the standard Dariosity of the "typical" Darius ****** post." It all makes sense now.
---------------
Just a few examples of how salvation for all unless they joined the opposition (Satan) would be a contradiction (emphasis mine):

Rom 1:16 -For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. KJV

Eph 1:13 -In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,..KJV

Matt 22:14 -For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV

Acts 26:18 -To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. KJV

Gal 2:16 -Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

[hanaya]

My youth pastor once said to me.
The question isn't once you're saved are you always saved? but that if you have fallen away, were you ever really saved in the first place?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Are you saying you do not know when Jesus conquered Satan? Or are you saying you are not certain He has conquered him yet? Which is it?
I'm saying that since some people are going to Heaven, and some to Hell, we cannot say right now which we are going to with complete certainty.

[dudeoffaith1]

If you are saved, you are saved until you deny your faith in Jesus Christ.

[Simon..]

Not all who say "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Very true, but thats not the point of those passages anyway, is it?

[Kristi1]

I voted ~> Yes, once you are saved you are always saved.


* I believe we are saved once we accept Jesus Christ Death, Burial, and Reserrection. We are the ONES whom walk away from Jesus, and His Father God!

*God Promised to never leave us, We leave Him instead!

Footprints in the Sand

One night a woman had a dream. She dreamed she was walking along the beach with the Lord. Across the sky flashed scenes of her life. For each scene, she noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, one belonged to her, and the other to the Lord.

When the last scene of her life flashed before her, she looked back at the footprints in the sand. She noticed that many times along the path of her life there was only one set of footprints. She also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in her life.

This really bothered her and she questioned the Lord about it. "Lord, you said once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don’t understand why when I needed you most you would leave me."

The Lord replied, "My precious, precious child, I Love you and would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you."


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Happy Holiday's Everyone! Jesus is the Reason for the Season!! :D


Love Always, \o/ :clap:

KristiAnn
MsGuidedAngel :angel:

[gmedwards]

Very true, but thats not the point of those passages anyway, is it?
simon is right, those passages are about faith, ie having a living faith in Christ means we can have confidence in or salvation. not all who say lord lord...that is a very dfferent idea...

Mt 7: 21 - 23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

the people who Jesus is talking of are those who do not know him, who do not have faith. but those who KNOW Jesus as Lord and saviour will be saved!:amen:

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

simon is right, those passages are about faith, ie having a living faith in Christ means we can have confidence in or salvation. not all who say lord lord...that is a very dfferent idea...

Mt 7: 21 - 23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

the people who Jesus is talking of are those who do not know him, who do not have faith. but those who KNOW Jesus as Lord and saviour will be saved!:amen:
No no. They did mircles in His name, they had some kind of faith. It was not true faith however. This is a warning to believers, those who use the name of Jesus.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Very true, but thats not the point of those passages anyway, is it?
I believe it is the point. He is addressing those that suppossedly follow Him

[gmedwards]

No no. They did mircles in His name, they had some kind of faith. It was not true faith however. This is a warning to believers, those who use the name of Jesus.
No. They did not know him...they did not have faith. Jesus has been speaking of false prophets, of bad fruit, the people he refers to may have believed that they were doing things in the name of Christ, clearly they were not, - because they did not know him. They can have no faith because they do not know Jesus. this is a warning that only faith - knowing Jesus, is salvific, not works which may be said to be in his name. Only faith.

[crunchie]

No. They did not know him...they did not have faith. Jesus has been speaking of false prophets, of bad fruit, the people he refers to may have believed that they were doing things in the name of Christ, clearly they were not, - because they did not know him. They can have no faith because they do not know Jesus. this is a warning that only faith - knowing Jesus, is salvific, not works which may be said to be in his name. Only faith.
I agree wholeheartedly.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

No. They did not know him...they did not have faith. Jesus has been speaking of false prophets, of bad fruit, the people he refers to may have believed that they were doing things in the name of Christ, clearly they were not, - because they did not know him. They can have no faith because they do not know Jesus. this is a warning that only faith - knowing Jesus, is salvific, not works which may be said to be in his name. Only faith.
How could they prophesy and drive out demons if not with the power of Jesus? Jesus Himself said that demonic power doesn't drive out demons. They HAD to have had faith, or Jesus was mistaken when He said they drove out demons and prophesied.

[statrei]

"1000 milliDarians is the standard Dariosity of the "typical" Darius ****** post." It all makes sense now.
All this shows is that you are similarly as unable to support your assertions. That you have to go this low in order to find some advantage in this discussion is a demonstration of the bankruptcy of your ideas. This is shameful for someone who would certainly dare to profess the name of the Messiah.

[statrei]

"1000 milliDarians is the standard Dariosity of the "typical" Darius ****** post." It all makes sense now.
---------------
Just a few examples of how salvation for all unless they joined the opposition (Satan) would be a contradiction (emphasis mine):

Rom 1:16 -For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. KJV

Eph 1:13 -In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,..KJV

Matt 22:14 -For many are called, but few are chosen. KJV
Read them again. According to you if I say "All those who purchase a ticket will be able to enter the stadium" you would erroneously conclude that "only" those who purchase a ticket will be allowed to enter the stadium. It does not take much to demonstrate the flaw in that logic. A guarantee of salvation to those who believe does not mean that salvation comes only to those who believe. You need a bit more sophistication in your thought processess, instead of wasting your time with Darians.

[crunchie]

how could they possibly have faith if Jesus did not know them...they had none. works, whatever they had done, were not enough. they did not have faith, that was what they needed.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

how could they possibly have faith if Jesus did not know them...they had none. works, whatever they had done, were not enough. they did not have faith, that was what they needed.
They had to have had faith at one time, or they could not have done the miracles. However, they lost their faith or something, and could not enter heaven. It was not that they did not have faith or did not know Jesus, but they lost it for whatever reason

[crunchie]

but the key here is that when Jesus is refering to them they did not have faith, whether they had at some point is irrelevant, because if a person has faith then surley they would know Jesus, but they dont. what thay ahev done in the past - miracles or whatever - is not enough. a real living faith is what they need.

not trying to have an arguement here - but it is interesting!!

[keyarch]

All this shows is that you are similarly as unable to support your assertions. That you have to go this low in order to find some advantage in this discussion is a demonstration of the bankruptcy of your ideas. This is shameful for someone who would certainly dare to profess the name of the Messiah.I have supported my points by providing Bible passages. But rather than dispute that information, you’d rather come back with comments that directly reflect my point. If my interpretations of scripture are bankrupt, then please direct me to other scripture that will enlighten me, or show me how they are bankrupt.

2 Tim 2:15-16 -Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. KJV

Titus 1:10-12 -For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach, for the sake of sordid gain. 13 This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith, NASB

1 Peter 3:16 -Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. KJV

[NoneRighteous]

Once saved, now saved... but that's my opinion.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

a real living faith is what they need.
:thumbsup:

Agreed. Faith that produces works and an eternal commitment is necessary. Anything less is dead

[keyarch]

Read them again. According to you if I say "All those who purchase a ticket will be able to enter the stadium" you would erroneously conclude that "only" those who purchase a ticket will be allowed to enter the stadium. It does not take much to demonstrate the flaw in that logic. A guarantee of salvation to those who believe does not mean that salvation comes only to those who believe. You need a bit more sophistication in your thought processess, instead of wasting your time with Darians.You’ve questioned my logic, so let’s compare that logic to what scripture says.

Mark 16:16 – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

So if I said “If you have a ticket you will be allowed to enter the stadium, but if you don’t have a ticket you won’t be able to get in.” the logic wouldn’t square with Mark 16:16? Is that an erroneous conclusion? Did Jesus lie?

In your example, the logic would be that the money for the ticket has already been given to everyone; that some can purchase their ticket now and know they have it; that the others will just pick it up at the gate; and still others don’t even want to enter the stadium, so they give their money to the opposing team.

Maybe you should write a new translation for the New Testament. It could go something like this:
1. We are all sinners.
2. Jesus came to earth and died to pay for everybody’s sin.
3. Everyone will automatically go to heaven unless you align yourself with Satan.
4. If you believe in me, you will especially go to heaven.
5. Now those that believe in me should try to be like me; and your job is to try and share with others the benefits of your belief.
6. Number five would be great, but you’re going to heaven anyway.

[statrei]

keyarch, prooftexting may enable you to prove your position with biblical passages but it is not a sign that you are reflecting what the Bible teaches. It is not enough to provide biblical passages. Of course, YMMV.

[statrei]

You’ve questioned my logic, so let’s compare that logic to what scripture says.

Mark 16:16 – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

So if I said “If you have a ticket you will be allowed to enter the stadium, but if you don’t have a ticket you won’t be able to get in.” the logic wouldn’t square with Mark 16:16? Is that an erroneous conclusion? Did Jesus lie?

This is what happens when we are more interested in defending what we believe than in discovering what God would have us to know. This passage can only refer to individuals to whom the truth has been made plain. If you have never heard or never understood then you cannot be accused of not believing. Please read Hosea 4:6 and see how it applies to you.

[keyarch]

This passage can only refer to individuals to whom the truth has been made plain. If you have never heard or never understood then you cannot be accused of not believing.Ok, lets say that Mark 16:16 only applies to people whom have had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and understood it but still did not believe. Are you now saying that these people are aligning themselves with Satan (because you said earlier that we are all saved unless we do that)? What if they also haven’t heard or understand about Satan? Are they stuck in the middle somewhere for eternity?

Rom 1:19-20 -Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:KJV

Now the above passage applies to those who you say may never have heard the Gospel.

Rom 2:11-15 -For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.. KJV

Rom 3:9-10 -What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: KJV

Rom 3:23 -For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; KJV

Rom 3:26-28 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. KJV

So if we are all under sin no matter if we’ve heard the Gospel or not, and the only way to be justified is by faith, how is it that people with no faith can have redemption for their sins?Please read Hosea 4:6 and see how it applies to you.Hos 4:6 -My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. KJVIt doesn’t apply! I have strived to gain knowledge thru the Word of God. Anyone can misinterpret, but I have made attempts to square my beliefs with that Word by giving many examples. I reject no part of the Word as originally penned. If something I say is contrary to the Word, then I am fully flexible to adjust my interpretation. The truth is a matter of life or death.

[statrei]

So if we are all under sin no matter if we’ve heard the Gospel or not, and the only way to be justified is by faith, how is it that people with no faith can have redemption for their sins?I really don't need to be arguing points if you are only going to seek for texts that contradict the message of the gospel. The gospel is not good advice but good news. You seem attached to good advice. God has brought good news. The answer to your question is simple. God holds each responsible for the 'truth' he knows, not for the truth that someone else knows. If you have a problem with that argue it with God, and when you get to the kingdom and find in there people who you don't think belong you can appeal God's decision or go someplace else.

[GodFlute2]

I belive Peter asked Jesus if forgiving 7 times was enough. 'Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." Why would he ask about 7 if 1 was enough? Why was Jesus' answer even more than Peter's estimate if 1 was enough? It is possable to back slide into sin.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

The answer to your question is simple. God holds each responsible for the 'truth' he knows, not for the truth that someone else knows.
Scripture?

[Blessed-one]

*MOD HAT ON*

Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"
1.1 You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest.
1.2 You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal (ad hominem) attacks on the member himself or herself.
1.3 You will not misquote another member regardless of context.

*MOD HAT OFF*

[statrei]

Scripture?Do you need Scripture to believe that if you walk off the top of a tall building you will fall until your fall is impeded? Men were living under God's direction long before they ever had anything resembling Scripture.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Do you need Scripture to believe that if you walk off the top of a tall building you will fall until your fall is impeded? Men were living under God's direction long before they ever had anything resembling Scripture.
I'd still like a verse or two, or some ECF work, something. This is far different from gravity

[statrei]

I'd still like a verse or two, or some ECF work, something. This is far different from gravityOK. Here goes:

Acts 17:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ACTS+17:30&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I would note that all God's laws are the same. There is no hierarchy.

[MeekOne]

If they had rebelled God would not have been able to put enmity between the serpent and the woman.
Your entire argument has been nothing but bologna...and it has made me nothing but hungry:yum: ...I'm done with you:clap: ...someone please pass the bread and the mayo...:amen:

[statrei]

Your entire argument has been nothing but bologna...and it has made me nothing but hungry:yum: ...I'm done with you:clap: ...someone please pass the bread and the mayo...:amen:When one can't win the argument it sometimes makes one get a sense of accomplishment by resorting to ad hominem in the hope that points will be gained thereby. For me, I prefer to rely on the strength of my argument.

[MeekOne]

When one can't win the argument it sometimes makes one get a sense of accomplishment by resorting to ad hominem in the hope that points will be gained thereby. For me, I prefer to rely on the strength of my argument.
Winning or losing has nothing to do with it Darius, just knowing when to stop throwing pearls to swine makes me the winner indeed! ;)

Argument from Infinite Digression
(np) 1. Style of argumentation which relies upon endlessly claiming faults on the part of one's correspondent on irrelevant or non sequitur points, and consistently refusing to support any claims made. Calls to support a previously made point make for new points of digressive departure, especially via claiming that the correspondent made his statement due to improper assumptions. One noted user of this technique was Darius Lecointe (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/biofile_l.html#darius_lecointe), whose bizarrely styled digressions gave rise to a quantitative measure, the milliDarian, which would describe the Dariosity (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_d.html#dariosity) of a post. The milliDarian scale is sometimes seen applied in responses to newbie SciCre (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_s.html#scicre) or TAE (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_t.html#tae) posters. 1000 milliDarians is the standard Dariosity of the "typical" Darius Lecointe post.

Dariosity
(n) 1. The level of impenetrability of a post due to application of the Argument from Infinite Digression (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_a.html#argument_from_infinite_digression) and/or sheer mental density, measured in milliDarians (mD), as in "800 mD." See Darius Lecointe (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/biofile_l.html#darius_lecointe).

.Lecointe, Darius A.
[?-] TAE (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_t.html#tae). Liked to answer questions about his posts with other questions or completely non sequitur responses. Pinning down Darius on a question was about as easy as nailing jelly to a wall.

[statrei]

And like another who is intellectually disadvantaged you reach into the mudpit. (If only you knew the history of the term). How shameful among those who claim to be Christians but seem to be foreigners to their ways. Remember that he who throws mud loses ground.



Winning or losing has nothing to do with it Darius, just knowing when to stop throwing pearls to swine makes me the winner indeed! ;)

Argument from Infinite Digression
(np) 1. Style of argumentation which relies upon endlessly claiming faults on the part of one's correspondent on irrelevant or non sequitur points, and consistently refusing to support any claims made. Calls to support a previously made point make for new points of digressive departure, especially via claiming that the correspondent made his statement due to improper assumptions. One noted user of this technique was Darius Lecointe (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/biofile_l.html#darius_lecointe), whose bizarrely styled digressions gave rise to a quantitative measure, the milliDarian, which would describe the Dariosity (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_d.html#dariosity) of a post. The milliDarian scale is sometimes seen applied in responses to newbie SciCre (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_s.html#scicre) or TAE (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_t.html#tae) posters. 1000 milliDarians is the standard Dariosity of the "typical" Darius Lecointe post.

Dariosity
(n) 1. The level of impenetrability of a post due to application of the Argument from Infinite Digression (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_a.html#argument_from_infinite_digression) and/or sheer mental density, measured in milliDarians (mD), as in "800 mD." See Darius Lecointe (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/biofile_l.html#darius_lecointe).

.Lecointe, Darius A.
[?-] TAE (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/jargon/jargonfile_t.html#tae). Liked to answer questions about his posts with other questions or completely non sequitur responses. Pinning down Darius on a question was about as easy as nailing jelly to a wall.

[MeekOne]

And like another who is intellectually disadvantaged you reach into the mudpit. How shameful among those who claim to be Christians but seem to be foreigners to their ways. Remember that he who throws mud loses ground.
Well I guess you are standing in mid-air then, better learn how to fly fast. :P

Again, what exactly is your argument? :idea: If you do not have one, then do not respond, its futile and a complete waste of time, yours, mine, and more importantly, everyone elses. :yawn: :sleep:

[statrei]

Well I guess you are standing in mid-air then, better learn how to fly fast. :P

Again, what exactly is your argument? :idea: If you do not have one, then do not respond, its futile and a complete waste of time, yours, mine, and more importantly, everyone elses. :yawn: :sleep:There is your problem. You have been engaged in a discussion without first determing exactly what is being proposed. I would hope you would do better in the future.

[MeekOne]

There is your problem. You have been engaged in a discussion without first determing exactly what is being proposed. I would hope you would do better in the future.
Yes, I would call you a problem. :doh: Definitely not engaging though. :sick: May I remind you that you started this back and forth banter with me by opposing my views with nothing to back up your remarks. :scratch: I have been trying to find out what you were proposing from day one. It has been a displeasure to meet you. :o Now back to our regularly scheduled program...already in progress.....:D

[statrei]

Yes, I would call you a problem. :doh: Definitely not engaging though. :sick: May I remind you that you started this back and forth banter with me by opposing my views with nothing to back up your remarks. :scratch: I have been trying to find out what you were proposing from day one. It has been a displeasure to meet you. :o Now back to our regularly scheduled program...already in progress.....:DNo need to challenge your recollection. Revisionism does not always need to be debunked.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Acts 17:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ACTS+17:30&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
This has nothing to do with those ignorant of the Law, but simply ignorance about God's being.

[statrei]

This has nothing to do with those ignorant of the Law, but simply ignorance about God's being.Then think of the implications of a belief that God holds you responsible for what I believe, if you don't believe the Bible teaches otherwise.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Then think of the implications of a belief that God holds you responsible for what I believe, if you don't believe the Bible teaches otherwise.
We are not talking about God holding people responsible for what one person believes. We're talking about a standard

[LegacyOfLove]

Sorry to be comin in so late into this discussion...but...I am not one who believes that once saved always saved...the churches I have gone to growing up (with the exception of the Baptist church my grandparents/mother went to)...all taught that you can be saved and can backslide. If you backslide "sin" then you must repent again in order to make it into heaven. Now, I wonder how accurate that is? Doesn't God's grace cover us at all? Or does it matter if we mess up a time or two versus living in a lifestyle of sin? What about premeditated major sins versus minor sins?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Sorry to be comin in so late into this discussion...but...I am not one who believes that once saved always saved...the churches I have gone to growing up (with the exception of the Baptist church my grandparents/mother went to)...all taught that you can be saved and can backslide. If you backslide "sin" then you must repent again in order to make it into heaven. Now, I wonder how accurate that is? Doesn't God's grace cover us at all? Or does it matter if we mess up a time or two versus living in a lifestyle of sin? What about premeditated major sins versus minor sins?
Salvation is a process. You cannot limit it to a specific moment and say you are OSAS, or backslide. Salvation is not finished upon this earth.

[statrei]

We are not talking about God holding people responsible for what one person believes. We're talking about a standardLet me move over to the same page you are. A standard for what? While you are it provide a text on point.

[statrei]

Salvation is a process.To help me understand you in my context, please describe what you think man's natural condition was BEFORE the need arose for him to be saved. Without knowing that it is nearly impossible to follow you.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Let me move over to the same page you are. A standard for what? While you are it provide a text on point.
A standard for judgement. John 12:48

"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

To help me understand you in my context, please describe what you think man's natural condition was BEFORE the need arose for him to be saved. Without knowing that it is nearly impossible to follow you.
Man was trying to become like God in the Garden, and was far from perfect.

[statrei]

Man was trying to become like God in the Garden, and was far from perfect.So you don't believe that man was truly made in the image of God?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So you don't believe that man was truly made in the image of God?
Man was made in the image of God. Man was not God. The fact that we sin shows that we are not God, and that Adam was not either.

[statrei]

A standard for judgement. John 12:48

"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."I take it you believe the human is being judged on certain charges. What do you believed are the charges against us, and who has brought those charges?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I take it you believe the human is being judged on certain charges. What do you believed are the charges against us, and who has brought those charges?
Huh?

Satan accuses us day and night if thats what you mean. Jesus judges us by the words he spoke.

[statrei]

Huh?

Satan accuses us day and night if thats what you mean. Jesus judges us by the words he spoke.What exactly does Satan charge us with. If there is a judgment there must be charges that must be answered. They can't be vague. They must be specific.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

What exactly does Satan charge us with. If there is a judgment there must be charges that must be answered. They can't be vague. They must be specific.
Revelation 20:12

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

We won't know the charges till we are judged. Revelation 12:10

"For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night..."

[statrei]

Revelation 20:12

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

We won't know the charges till we are judged. Revelation 12:10

"For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night..."I think I see what's happening. Two types of judgements go on in every trial. First, the accused is judged. But the witnesses also have to be judged by the court to determine whether their testimony can be accepted by the court. In this cosmic trial our trial is of the second kind.

[~PinkJinx~]

I voted that a person can be saved, but loose their salvation if they backslide. I think it this werent the case, everyone could say the sinners prayer, then do whatever they wanted, not abiding by the word of god, yet still be allowed into heaven. I dont trust this is the case.
God promised his people the promised land, yet because the people started backsliding, started honoring other idols, and didn't obey his commandments, most of them never entered into the promise land.
I think this story applies to all believers. If a person who accepts christ as their savior, yet don't abide in his word, their sinful nature could hinder their entrance into heaven.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I think I see what's happening. Two types of judgements go on in every trial. First, the accused is judged. But the witnesses also have to be judged by the court to determine whether their testimony can be accepted by the court. In this cosmic trial our trial is of the second kind.
Something like that. We are judged from the books, which are unbiased records of our life :)

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I voted that a person can be saved, but loose their salvation if they backslide. I think it this werent the case, everyone could say the sinners prayer, then do whatever they wanted, not abiding by the word of god, yet still be allowed into heaven. I dont trust this is the case.
God promised his people the promised land, yet because the people started backsliding, started honoring other idols, and didn't obey his commandments, most of them never entered into the promise land.
I think this story applies to all believers. If a person who accepts christ as their savior, yet don't abide in his word, their sinful nature could hinder their entrance into heaven.
Sinner's Prayer?

And yes, faith without deads is dead. Dead faith cannot bring eternal life :)

[statrei]

Something like that. We are judged from the books, which are unbiased records of our life :)But that is different from saying that we will be judged to determine whether we will enter heaven.

[statrei]

Man was made in the image of God. Man was not God. The fact that we sin shows that we are not God, and that Adam was not either.Those facts don't prove your point. According to your argument we would have to conclude that the angels in heaven who did not sin were God and we know that is not true. So we are still back to the original question. What was the condition of man before he fell? It is as important to know that as it is to know what a car looked like BEFORE the accident if you intend to repair it.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

But that is different from saying that we will be judged to determine whether we will enter heaven.
Not at all.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Those facts don't prove your point. According to your argument we would have to conclude that the angels in heaven who did not sin were God and we know that is not true. So we are still back to the original question. What was the condition of man before he fell? It is as important to know that as it is to know what a car looked like BEFORE the accident if you intend to repair it.
Well, explain what you mean by condition a little more.

[statrei]

Not at all.Explain why you think that being judged for the quality of your testimony is the same as being judged for entrance into heaven.

[statrei]

Well, explain what you mean by condition a little more.Was God pleased with man at that time? Was He dissatisfied? Did it please Him to have man in His kingdom?

[Bin Qasim]

Peace

I big no........You have to keep up the good works...

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Explain why you think that being judged for the quality of your testimony is the same as being judged for entrance into heaven.
When the books are opened and we are judged, this determines where we go. according to Revelation.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Was God pleased with man at that time? Was He dissatisfied? Did it please Him to have man in His kingdom?
He was pleased before the fall, and hoped man would continue his theosis. However, man pulled further away from God instead of further towards Him.

[statrei]

He was pleased before the fall, and hoped man would continue his theosis. However, man pulled further away from God instead of further towards Him.Where do you get these ideas from? Man pulled further away? This is astounding, but it explains your views of the present human condition. On second thought, it does not even do that but I understand why you hold on to it.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Where do you get these ideas from? Man pulled further away? This is astounding, but it explains your views of the present human condition. On second thought, it does not even do that but I understand why you hold on to it.
Does my view contradict scripture?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Where do you get these ideas from? Man pulled further away? This is astounding, but it explains your views of the present human condition. On second thought, it does not even do that but I understand why you hold on to it.
Actually, what denom's theology is this that you hold?

[statrei]

Does my view contradict scripture?In part? No! In its entirety? Yes!

[statrei]

Actually, what denom's theology is this that you hold?Actually, none that I have found to date. After I realized that after 2000 Christianity still has not achieved its goal of the New Earth it dawned upon me that it is possible that the deception that began in the Garden of Eden has continued in the church to this day. This sent me off on a new journey and in the process I discovered a heap of evidence in the Bible that the church has simply ignored or misinterpreted.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

In part? No! In its entirety? Yes!
Please show this then, as this has been the position of the apostles...

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Actually, none that I have found to date. After I realized that after 2000 Christianity still has not achieved its goal of the New Earth it dawned upon me that it is possible that the deception that began in the Garden of Eden has continued in the church to this day. This sent me off on a new journey and in the process I discovered a heap of evidence in the Bible that the church has simply ignored or misinterpreted.
Well I encourage you to look into Orthodoxy. We hold to the apostolic teachings and many things that predate the canonization of the Bile (actually, we made the NT as you know it!)

[statrei]

Please show this then, as this has been the position of the apostles...The premier apostle admitted that they only knew in part and prophecied in part. While it is comforting to believe that the apostles are the final word on what the truth about this cosmic controversy is, this is simply not the case. He concluded, "we see through a glass darkly." After three years with Christ He confessed that they still did not fully understand.

[statrei]

Well I encourage you to look into Orthodoxy. We hold to the apostolic teachings and many things that predate the canonization of the Bile (actually, we made the NT as you know it!)This would mean that they stopped seeking truth and became defenders of the apostles' understanding. That's dangerous, even if the apostles were 100% correct. In any event, the failure of their efforts to bring the Second Coming remains a sore point.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

The premier apostle admitted that they only knew in part and prophecied in part. While it is comforting to believe that the apostles are the final word on what the truth about this cosmic controversy is, this is simply not the case. He concluded, "we see through a glass darkly." After three years with Christ He confessed that they still did not fully understand.
You cannot use a blanket statement to cover over a specific doctrine

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

This would mean that they stopped seeking truth and became defenders of the apostles' understanding. That's dangerous, even if the apostles were 100% correct. In any event, the failure of their efforts to bring the Second Coming remains a sore point.
The doctrines they hold, however, are the true ones. Orthodoxy discerns from truth and opinion.

Sorry, premillenialism as condemned as heresy well over 1000 years ago.

[youthleader]

I believe that once you are saved always saved but some people use that against Baptist because they say that you can go out and drink on saturday night and then on sunday be forgiven i believe that if you go out and drink on every saturday night and come sunday know you are gonna be forgiven i don't believe that you were really saved to begin with but if you drink on saturday and come sunday and want to be forgiven but never do it again i know you will be forgiven but i do believed once saved always saved i just think that some people get the wrong meaning of what it really means sometimes.:)

[statrei]

The doctrines they hold, however, are the true ones. Orthodoxy discerns from truth and opinion.

Sorry, premillenialism as condemned as heresy well over 1000 years ago.I don't understand the reference to premillenialism in this context. Maybe you can explain. How do you know that the doctrines held by Orthodoxy are true? How do you know they have correctly discerned between truth and opinion?

[statrei]

You cannot use a blanket statement to cover over a specific doctrineMaybe you meant to say something else. By definition, blanket statement cover all specific doctrines.

Darius

[FreeSpiritFaith]

The bible warns about falling away. And this is why Satan always tries to tempt you right after you begin to follow god. He knows he has to try harder. If you couldn't fall away, then he would give up once you are saved.

[Ken]

The bible warns about falling away. And this is why Satan always tries to tempt you right after you begin to follow god. He knows he has to try harder. If you couldn't fall away, then he would give up once you are saved.
do you still sin? if so, and I am betting you do... how do you know if you are saved? can you ever know? if your salvation depends on you not sinning, you are in trouble..... or is your salvation dependent on your making sure you remember to ask forgiveness for every single sin you committ? what if you forget one?

blessings

[Fonzy]

I think you can backslide.

[Fonzy]

you will always make mistakes. you choose to murder someone or rob.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I don't understand the reference to premillenialism in this context. Maybe you can explain. How do you know that the doctrines held by Orthodoxy are true? How do you know they have correctly discerned between truth and opinion?
Simply, pre-mill is heresy according to the Church.

Why is it true? Because the Church as a whole is infalliable, and the doctrines we hold were made by the WHOLE Church. All positions were discussed, and the Spirit led the councils to make the right decisions.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Maybe you meant to say something else. By definition, blanket statement cover all specific doctrines.

Darius
Then I could say "Beware of the teachers of the law" and it could mean you. But this is not so. Actually, it is taking the Scripture WILDLY out of context.

So consider the verse you gave. It cannot mean all that the apostles believed was wrong, or that means that Jesus taught them incorrectly. In fact, it is in a chapter about love. Therefore, it must have something to do with love. Think of it this way: Love is eternal, but prophecy isn't. Tongues are for now, love is forever, etc.

It does indeed say that we do not know everything, but it does not say what we do know is wrong. If it was, then how is the Bible that you got the verse from, written by imperfect people and canonized far later, even true?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

do you still sin? if so, and I am betting you do... how do you know if you are saved? can you ever know? if your salvation depends on you not sinning, you are in trouble..... or is your salvation dependent on your making sure you remember to ask forgiveness for every single sin you committ? what if you forget one?
You cannot know you're saved until it happens. We don't know the future, and salvation is a process. But good points, salvation is entirely in Jesus' hands, and He will judge in the future, as He has said :)

[statrei]

So consider the verse you gave. It cannot mean all that the apostles believed was wrong, Which is why I did not claim that. What is does mean is that one should not blindly accept as truth whatever the apostles taught without careful consideration of the context of their understanding and their practice.

[statrei]

Why is it true? Because the Church as a whole is infalliable, and the doctrines we hold were made by the WHOLE Church. All positions were discussed, and the Spirit led the councils to make the right decisions.That is wishful thinking. Consider the implications of believing that the same God who you claim ensured that the Church made the correct decisions did not seem able to use that power to make certain that Lucifer and Adam and Eve made correct decisions. Simply put, God will not stop you from deceiving yourself.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Which is why I did not claim that. What is does mean is that one should not blindly accept as truth whatever the apostles taught without careful consideration of the context of their understanding and their practice.
And how to you propose to do that?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

That is wishful thinking. Consider the implications of believing that the same God who you claim ensured that the Church made the correct decisions did not seem able to use that power to make certain that Lucifer and Adam and Eve made correct decisions. Simply put, God will not stop you from deceiving yourself.
They were not the Church.

[kleptobismol]

yet ppl who are truly saved are less likely to murder someone or rob a bank

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

yet ppl who are truly saved are less likely to murder someone or rob a bank
We cannot know our salvation untill judgement.

[statrei]

And how to you propose to do that?The same way I check everything else. Prayerfully use my God-given intelligence and consult with others. True seekers don't only memorize what others have already "digested." They "work with" the available information.

[statrei]

They were not the Church.If the Jews had accepted the Messiah the Church would never have come into existence. The rise of the Church was not some master plan that gives the church special status among God's people.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

The same way I check everything else. Prayerfully use my God-given intelligence and consult with others. True seekers don't only memorize what others have already "digested." They "work with" the available information.
So why do you not trust the Church, who has had thousands like you who use their God given ideas. In fact, in the Church many actually came together, so it is not one person making the decisions.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

If the Jews had accepted the Messiah the Church would never have come into existence. The rise of the Church was not some master plan that gives the church special status among God's people.
We cannot know this

[statrei]

We cannot know thisActually, you simply prefer not to admit it. Show me one prophecy in the Old Testament that points to the rise of the Church.

[statrei]

So why do you not trust the Church, who has had thousands like you who use their God given ideas. In fact, in the Church many actually came together, so it is not one person making the decisions.I trust the church in the same way I trust the pioneers in my academic disciplines. They did the best with what they had. They were not frauds. But, I don't hand over my mind to them. If that is what God had wanted me to do He would not have given me one.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Actually, you simply prefer not to admit it. Show me one prophecy in the Old Testament that points to the rise of the Church.
I do not need to. God knows everything, including everything about the Church.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I trust the church in the same way I trust the pioneers in my academic disciplines. They did the best with what they had. They were not frauds. But, I don't hand over my mind to them. If that is what God had wanted me to do He would not have given me one.
So how can you make the assumption that your one mind is more powerful than the thousands who lived at the same time Jesus did?

[statrei]

So how can you make the assumption that your one mind is more powerful than the thousands who lived at the same time Jesus did?I am not making any assumptions. And don't forget that Jesus complained that even after practically living with Him for three years the disciples (apostles) did not get it. Knowledge builds on knowledge. That's a fact of life.

[statrei]

I do not need to. God knows everything, including everything about the Church.Assertions "of faith" may comfort you, but they do not create fact.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I am not making any assumptions. And don't forget that Jesus complained that even after practically living with Him for three years the disciples (apostles) did not get it. Knowledge builds on knowledge. That's a fact of life.
However, they did receive the Holy Spirit, which helped them to understand. And one does not have to understand a doctrine to accurately restramsmit the information. And yes, knowledge builds on knowledge, so if the early Church was wrong, not even the Bible can be considered correct.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Assertions "of faith" may comfort you, but they do not create fact.
However, the fact that God does know all events, past, present, and future, is a fact.

[Scsgirl]

no oncxe saved always saved but if you were really saved in the first place you wont backslide that much

[statrei]

However, the fact that God does know all events, past, present, and future, is a fact.Then you must believe that the notion of independent human decision making is a farce. God knows all the possible options and their repercussions but He does not know what I am going to do. That's why I can disappoint Him even though He can't be caught off-guard.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Then you must believe that the notion of independent human decision making is a farce. God knows all the possible options and their repercussions but He does not know what I am going to do. That's why I can disappoint Him even though He can't be caught off-guard.
Well you are allowed to post about Open Theism in the All Members areas, but realize that this is not a Christian doctrine. And no, Gods knowledge does NOT mean you have no choice. I really suggest you do more research into these topics, and into Orthodoxy

[statrei]

Well you are allowed to post about Open Theism in the All Members areas, but realize that this is not a Christian doctrine. And no, Gods knowledge does NOT mean you have no choice. I really suggest you do more research into these topics, and into OrthodoxyDon't attempt to classify my thought. I don't know the first thing about Open Theism. Doing research will only reveal what the proponents believe.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Don't attempt to classify my thought. I don't know the first thing about Open Theism. Doing research will only reveal what the proponents believe.
Well, the thing is, these thoughts have already been thought -millions- of times, and condemned as heresy by the Church. Doing research will reveal what has been tried and didn't work.

[statrei]

Well, the thing is, these thoughts have already been thought -millions- of times, and condemned as heresy by the Church. Doing research will reveal what has been tried and didn't work.I'm not "trying" anything. I follow the data where it leads. My only guide is to determine what my thoughts and ideas say about the Creator I love, not whether humans accept or reject them. After all, we have the lesson of history that yesterday's 'heresy' sometimes becomes today's cutting edge. The ancients have been known to be wrong on occasion.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I'm not "trying" anything. I follow the data where it leads. My only guide is to determine what my thoughts and ideas say about the Creator I love, not whether humans accept or reject them.
Other people also follow data where it lead, and come to different conclusions. In fact, this is why so many denoms exist today. Why not work with the thousands of others who also want truth, and are correct in many areas?

[statrei]

Other people also follow data where it lead, and come to different conclusions. In fact, this is why so many denoms exist today. Why not work with the thousands of others who also want truth, and are correct in many areas?Not while their methodology is flawed and contrary to scripture. The issue has more to do with methodology than with conclusions. Unlike scientific thought, contemporary theology does not follow a system that minimizes the possibility of error. Adherents are driven more by what their chosen authority believes than by any confidence in its truth.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Not while their methodology is flawed and contrary to scripture. The issue has more to do with methodology than with conclusions. Unlike scientific thought, contemporary theology does not follow a system that minimizes the possibility of error. Adherents are driven more by what their chosen authority believes than by any confidence in its truth.
And I am not talking about contemporory theology. And, how can you trust the Bible so much if you cannot even trust those who wrote it, passed it down, canonized it, and translated it?

[statrei]

And I am not talking about contemporory theology. And, how can you trust the Bible so much if you cannot even trust those who wrote it, passed it down, canonized it, and translated it?I don't trust the Bible. I trust the Creator of whom it testifies. It is in Him I have put my trust.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I don't trust the Bible. I trust the Creator of whom it testifies. It is in Him I have put my trust.
Then why would it matter if their theology were contrary to scripture?

[statrei]

Then why would it matter if their theology were contrary to scripture?I never spoke about their theology being contrary to scripture. I said it was contrary to what the Bible teaches. You can find snippets in the Bible that will support this view and that, but when the Bible is taken wholistically much of what is claimed to be based on it is not. This is why I won't characteristically ask anyone to "show me the text." I prefer to follow the trend of thought and see how it all ties together.

For example, I can show you a text that says God created light on the first day of Creation week. However, if I believe that God is light, as the Bible also teaches, it is obvious that light could not have been created on the first day since God did not create Himself.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I never spoke about their theology being contrary to scripture. I said it was contrary to what the Bible teaches. You can find snippets in the Bible that will support this view and that, but when the Bible is taken wholistically much of what is claimed to be based on it is not. This is why I won't characteristically ask anyone to "show me the text." I prefer to follow the trend of thought and see how it all ties together.

For example, I can show you a text that says God created light on the first day of Creation week. However, if I believe that God is light, as the Bible also teaches, it is obvious that light could not have been created on the first day since God did not create Himself.
So then you do regard the Bible with authority?

And light can also mean "good" as opposed to photons, by the way.

[statrei]

So then you do regard the Bible with authority?
Yes, I do.

[sweetlambofgod]

if you sin alot then no you wont be saved anymore

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Yes, I do.
Why?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

if you sin alot then no you wont be saved anymoreSalvation happens at judgement!

[statrei]

Why?Because it is a record of the God's dealings with His creatures. From it I obtain a glimpse into His nature and His will.

[draconus71]

I believe once saved always saved as long as you dont sin against the Holy Spirit and if you do truly repent of that:thumbsup:

[statrei]

I believe once saved always saved as long as you dont sin against the Holy Spirit and if you do truly repent of that:thumbsup:Maybe it would be best if we paid attention to what we mean instead of simply repeating words that may have multiple meanings. The question that is central here is whether an individual who has been saved can end up burning in hell. Put another way, whether the act of salvation deprives an individual of the freedom to choose? But if one has made a choice after careful consideration, why would they individual change his/her choice later? From this angle we may discover that salvation means something different from what most think it does.

[TruePraiser]

I really disagree with once saved always saved, because just as i voted; you can always backslide and fall into sin.:amen:

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Because it is a record of the God's dealings with His creatures. From it I obtain a glimpse into His nature and His will.
So how do you know it is true but are unsure of the Church who created it?

[statrei]

So how do you know it is true but are unsure of the Church who created it?Actually, the church only compiled it. That aside, the only part of the Bible I have accepted unquestioningly, and not even all that, is the very first verse, which declares that God created all in the beginning. Everything else is interepreted agaiinst that fact. This is why I reject many popular beliefs; they don't fall in line with that fact.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Actually, the church only compiled it. That aside, the only part of the Bible I have accepted unquestioningly, and not even all that, is the very first verse, which declares that God created all in the beginning. Everything else is interepreted agaiinst that fact. This is why I reject many popular beliefs; they don't fall in line with that fact.
Most popular beliefs are wrong. Good job :thumbsup:

But I do think you should study more and more of the Bible, as well as the writings of apostles and ECFs. It may change your outlook on things :)

[statrei]

Most popular beliefs are wrong. Good job :thumbsup:

But I do think you should study more and more of the Bible, as well as the writings of apostles and ECFs. It may change your outlook on things :)I have. You seem to have decided to allow other people to decide what the truth is. In that case your confidence is in them no matter how correct they may be. Any belief that does not support the idea that the God is the original and independent Creator of the entire universe is unacceptable to me. That is my standard. I am not here to build a human organization but the kingdom of the God.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I have. You seem to have decided to allow other people to decide what the truth is. In that case your confidence is in them no matter how correct they may be. Any belief that does not support the idea that the God is the original and independent Creator of the entire universe is unacceptable to me. That is my standard. I am not here to build a human organization but the kingdom of the God.
I let people look for themselves, but trust does not change. Orthodoxy fully supports God as the original and independant creator as well. And, the Kingdom of God is simply a bunch of humans.

[statrei]

I let people look for themselves, but trust does not change. Orthodoxy fully supports God as the original and independant creator as well. And, the Kingdom of God is simply a bunch of humans.What orthodoxy says about the God may be different from what certain beliefs held by Orthodoxy say about the God.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

What orthodoxy says about the God may be different from what certain beliefs held by Orthodoxy say about the God.Orthodoxy is 100% orthodox

[statrei]

Orthodoxy is 100% orthodoxBut not necessarily 100% without error. Two entirely different things. And sometimes we chance upon the truth in spite of ourselves.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

But not necessarily 100% without error. Two entirely different things. And sometimes we chance upon the truth in spite of ourselves.
Some Orthodox are certainly in error, but Orthodoxy as a whole is not in error.

[statrei]

Some Orthodox are certainly in error, but Orthodoxy as a whole is not in error.I bet you that this is a statement of faith.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I bet you that this is a statement of faith.
Statement of Faith?

[statrei]

Statement of Faith?That's what I said. You have no evidence to support it. You simply accept it as true "on faith." I have found that statements of faith can be impervious to facts

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

That's what I said. You have no evidence to support it. You simply accept it as true "on faith." I have found that statements of faith can be impervious to facts
Well, that's Christianity. Based on faith :thumbsup:

[statrei]

Well, that's Christianity. Based on faith :thumbsup:And here is the crux of the problem. Here you are using faith to mean 'without rational reflection' instead of how the Bible defines it. Based on the Biblical definition faith is a fundamental in all human activities for it is the element that enables human progress. Without faith we would all be stagnant. Faith is not a religious issue only.

[Organist]

I voted no.

I do not believe in "once saved, always saved" as it is too liberal, and can be easily abused.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

The key thought here is "you who practice lawlessness" - and "he who does the will of My Father in heaven" makes it clear that accepting the Grace of God is not a license to sin.

It is true we will make mistakes, and we can ask forgiveness, but we should never take it as an excuse to sin without repentance.

[OddBeani]

Once saved always saved doesnt work.

I mean you can get saved when you are a little kid, and yes I mean of a comprehendable age and then later go off and kill some people, I dont think God is going to be welcoming you in as if all is good and fine.

It doesnt fly, if you are saved you live like it and then you will continue to do so through prayer and such.

[statrei]

Sometimes I get the impression that the God has subcontracted His responsibilities to these individuals who keep telling us what God will and will not do. Where do they get this level of assurance from? These same people cannot tell me what's going to happen in their lives two days from now but they dare to tell me what God will do far into the future.

[prettyrose436]

It's the beauty of the assurance of salvation! Once you ask Jesus in your life, you are always His!

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

And here is the crux of the problem. Here you are using faith to mean 'without rational reflection' instead of how the Bible defines it. Based on the Biblical definition faith is a fundamental in all human activities for it is the element that enables human progress. Without faith we would all be stagnant. Faith is not a religious issue only.
Not at all. There is plenty of reasoning involved. Your agreement with the reasoning is the issue, not the lack if it.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Sometimes I get the impression that the God has subcontracted His responsibilities to these individuals who keep telling us what God will and will not do. Where do they get this level of assurance from? These same people cannot tell me what's going to happen in their lives two days from now but they dare to tell me what God will do far into the future.Anyone who believes that salvation is not a process does the same thing as this.

[Imblessed]

I strongly lean towards OSAS, but I wouldn't bet my life on it!!

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, which tells me that He will always bring me back to repentence if I were to ever "fall away" or "backslide", yet there are plenty of warnings in the bible to continually test our faith, and to "finish running the race" and to "put on the armor of God", all of which certainly implies that if we are not careful, we could lose out.

Yet, many of the great men in the bible did some awful things against God, and He never rejected them--yes, they suffered the consequences of their actions, but they always came back to God-- another reason to believe in OSAS

I hesitate to claim that if a person "falls away", then it proves that that person never really was saved to begin with--but that's the overall impression I get when reading the bible.

To be honest, I grew up believing in OSnAS, but now that I have accepted OSAS as probably being the "truer" view--I have grown closer than ever to God. It's the feeling of security I have now that I never had before, and that feeling of security, that peace and love-- instead of making me take Him for granted, makes me want to please Him all the more!!!

I just have a hard time imagining a person truly recieving God's Spirit, and actally consciously choosing to give that up. If I were agree with OSnAS in any way, I would have to say that it would take a VERY conscious descision to not believe in God anymore--I just don't think that simple backsliding can do it, no matter how far, because God claims to ALWAYS be there for us, even if we don't feel Him, and He is always drawing us to Him. A person would have to consciously make that descision to reject God, and I just don't see how a person would do that.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I strongly lean towards OSAS, but I wouldn't bet my life on it!!
Have you considered other options besides OSAS and OSnAS?

[Imblessed]

Have you considered other options besides OSAS and OSnAS?

Beside the option that a person can never truly know for sure? No, but I'd be interested in hearing more.....

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Beside the option that a person can never truly know for sure? No, but I'd be interested in hearing more.....
Basically, salvation is a process. We are judged at judgement, by definition, and that is when we are either saved or sent to Hell. One cannot say they are "saved" or "unsaved" because that is a fallacy assuming that one both can already be saved before judgement and, following this assumption, can know if they are or not.

[Imblessed]

Basically, salvation is a process. We are judged at judgement, by definition, and that is when we are either saved or sent to Hell. One cannot say they are "saved" or "unsaved" because that is a fallacy assuming that one both can already be saved before judgement and, following this assumption, can know if they are or not.
So, what you are saying is that no one is actually saved until they stand before God. So the question of OSAS is a moot point.

Sort of makes sense, except that from what I've learned, God thinks in Past/present/future simultaniously. Would that mean that God would know if our salvation was/is/will be secure, and thus it would be something we could know? I would really hate to live my life always wondering if I've been good enough, or if I've truly repented, or if I could do something that would cause Him to turn His back on me.

I operate on the assumption that God is truly omniscent and omnipotent and omnipresent. Meaning that there is nothing that happens that God does not intend on happening for some reason or another. I just don't see how we could "foil" God's plans. But that's maybe off topic a bit--I'm just trying to explain why I have to go with OSAS.

However, you do have a good point. Even I cannot say for absolute certainty if I am "saved"(simply because I do not know what the future holds for me), BUT-- I can say with absolute certainty that if I died right now....I would be with God. And with that certainty, I can rest in His assurances that He will keep me, because I am one of His sheep, and He would go find me if I strayed.

[Imblessed]

oh, and I don't mean to make any assumption about anybody here/I'm not trying to offend, but offer my feelings--but I would wonder if you(generalization here) are not sure if God can truly "keep" you--if you believe that you can resist God's love once you've accepted it--then maybe you should re-evaluate your walk with God, and your faith in His abilities.

[Rep Daddy]

I believe OJSG

Once Justified, surely Glorified !!!

Romans 8
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[f.o.o.t.man]

I believe that salvation is an event in your life. It is the point in your life when you realize that Jesus is the only means by which you must be saved and you give your life over to him and receive the Holy Spirit.

[f.o.o.t.man]

Once saved always saved doesnt work.

I mean you can get saved when you are a little kid, and yes I mean of a comprehendable age and then later go off and kill some people, I dont think God is going to be welcoming you in as if all is good and fine.

It doesnt fly, if you are saved you live like it and then you will continue to do so through prayer and such.
It is through God's incredible mercy that we are saved and forgiven. Is God's mercy not enough to cover any sin?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Sort of makes sense, except that from what I've learned, God thinks in Past/present/future simultaniously. Would that mean that God would know if our salvation was/is/will be secure, and thus it would be something we could know? I would really hate to live my life always wondering if I've been good enough, or if I've truly repented, or if I could do something that would cause Him to turn His back on me.

I operate on the assumption that God is truly omniscent and omnipotent and omnipresent. Meaning that there is nothing that happens that God does not intend on happening for some reason or another. I just don't see how we could "foil" God's plans. But that's maybe off topic a bit--I'm just trying to explain why I have to go with OSAS.

God sees all events at once, but we live inside of time. Things happen in chronological order as God forsees them, but they still have to happen before they happen, if that makes sense.

We cannot foil His plans. Now, if we knew things about the future, then we could change it. But, of course, God keeps that information secure and lets only part of it out in the form of Prophecy, which in effect causes the event to happen, if that also makes sense.

Not only are we dealing with a very complex time-based world situation, but we are dealing with how that very complex time-based world situation interacts with a realm above space, matter, and time.

[brinley45cal]

well, i believe that if you could lose your salvation then that is saying that God is not all powerful and therefore saying that God's not who he is. Romans 8:38-39
Thats not saying god is not all powerful,once you get saved you still have to make a choice either to follow him and his word or not.If after your saved you stop following christ thats on you.God is going to be god weather or not you serve him or not.I cant get saved today and tommarow turn around and murder someone and expect to go to heaven unless i repent of it

[statrei]

Anyone who believes that salvation is not a process does the same thing as this.Strange. The Bible seems to teach that He "saved" us (an event), rather than He "is saving us" (a process.)

[MeekOne]

O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever: The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever: The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever: And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever: With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever: And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever: But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever. To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever: And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever: And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever: Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever. Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever: And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever. Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

God's mercy is forever. Take heart, salvation is forever! :amen:

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Strange. The Bible seems to teach that He "saved" us (an event), rather than He "is saving us" (a process.)
Jesus actually says, "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved" quite a few times.

[MeekOne]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[MeekOne]

Hey, got some good news regarding possible salvation and an athiest....check this out:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=315976

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Hey, got some good news regarding possible salvation and an athiest....check this out:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=315976
Always good to hear! The more science advances, the more even the athiests will have to realize that there is something behind the universe :)

[Euphrosynos]

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, because a 10 second prayer does not save you for life. Salvation is something you continually struggle towards because faith without works is DEAD! And THAT is biblical!:preach:

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, because a 10 second prayer does not save you for life. Salvation is something you continually struggle towards because faith without works is DEAD! And THAT is biblical!:preach:Amen to that :clap:

[Carl Rapel]

Once saved always saved doesnt work.

I mean you can get saved when you are a little kid, and yes I mean of a comprehendable age and then later go off and kill some people, I dont think God is going to be welcoming you in as if all is good and fine.

It doesnt fly, if you are saved you live like it and then you will continue to do so through prayer and such.
i couldnt agree more.... if someone were to get saved young (i will use the story of scrooge as an analogy) like young scrooge in Dickens' story then when he grows up and hates God why should he be saved now? Before Scrooge gets saved again, they show him dead in the future and everyone knew he was going to Hell and not Heaven. He could have loved God and asked for salvation at a young age but when he was young he felt God abandoned him and he decided he didnt need God anymore, so he fell away from God. I do not believe in once saved always saved.
~Carl

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

i couldnt agree more.... if someone were to get saved young (i will use the story of scrooge as an analogy) like young scrooge in Dickens' story then when he grows up and hates God why should he be saved now? Before Scrooge gets saved again, they show him dead in the future and everyone knew he was going to Hell and not Heaven. He could have loved God and asked for salvation at a young age but when he was young he felt God abandoned him and he decided he didnt need God anymore, so he fell away from God. I do not believe in once saved always saved.
~Carl
Unless being saved on earth is a fallacy and no one is saved or lost until judgement :)

[statrei]

Jesus actually says, "but he who stands firm to the end will be saved" quite a few times.I like the way Christians tend to look for a contextualized statement from Jesus to contradict what He said generally. Nothing like proving Jesus wrong in order to justify one's own belief.
This is dangerous.

Darius

[Carl Rapel]

Unless being saved on earth is a fallacy and no one is saved or lost until judgement :)
i dont know what fallacy is but i have an idea..... if we are "saved" at the judgement where do we go when we die? If you say purgatory then i tell you this... what was the purpose of Jesus paying off our sins if we have to pay them off in purgatory? ... if you are gonna say purgatory then i want to hear your response...

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I like the way Christians tend to look for a contextualized statement from Jesus to contradict what He said generally. Nothing like proving Jesus wrong in order to justify one's own belief.
This is dangerous.

DariusThis is what He taught. Both RCs and EOs, the last two churches that have Tradition, whether fully correct or mostly so, are in agreement on this. To disagree with them on this issue is to disagree with the unified pre-Schism Church, and therefore, with the first century Church, and in so doing, with Jesus and his apostles.

Oh, and can you prove that Jesus taught differently?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

i dont know what fallacy is but i have an idea..... if we are "saved" at the judgement where do we go when we die? If you say purgatory then i tell you this... what was the purpose of Jesus paying off our sins if we have to pay them off in purgatory? ... if you are gonna say purgatory then i want to hear your response...
We don't believe in purgatory. If you like, I can dig up a thread that explains this very issue.

[jgnov99]

I think this is one of those issues where it's very difficult to seperate your human perspective and understanding and be able to clearly see God's perspective. Though I have great difficulty getting beyond my own sense of what makes sense to me, God's word seems to say quite clearly that, when he saves us, "tetelestai" ( the bargain is sealed )
grace and peace

[Carl Rapel]

the bible also talks about blasphemy. in Mathew chapter 12:31 in NLT
31"Every sin or blasphemy can be forgiven--except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which can never be forgiven."

now what if a man was saved and he spoke blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Now some may ask what is blasphemy:
Here is the same verse in another translation:
31Because of this I say to you, all sin and evil speaking shall be forgiven to men, but the evil speaking of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

here is the def when you look it up on dictionary.com :
1 A contemptuous or profane act, utterance, or writing concerning God or a sacred entity.
2 The act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.
3 An irreverent or impious act, attitude, or utterance in regard to something considered inviolable or sacrosanct.

Therefore once saved always saved does not work...

[statrei]

This is what He taught. Both RCs and EOs, the last two churches that have Tradition, whether fully correct or mostly so, are in agreement on this. To disagree with them on this issue is to disagree with the unified pre-Schism Church, and therefore, with the first century Church, and in so doing, with Jesus and his apostles.

Oh, and can you prove that Jesus taught differently?Is this the way you establish your line of authority? Not much I can say if it works for you.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Is this the way you establish your line of authority? Not much I can say if it works for you.
How else am I to establish it but by the way Jesus did? If you have a different way, do post it.

[MeekOne]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
:amen:

[~SHINE~]

In the Old Testament, God made a Covenant with Abraham - it's known as the Abrahamic Covenant. It was God's promise of blessing on his people. Now, in the New Testament, it tells us that the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant fall onto believers today.
In the Old Testament, in order for a covenant to be made between two people, animals were cut in half and the pieces were laid on two sides, forming an aisle between the halves of the animal bodies. Both people participating in the covenant would walk through the aisle. It symbolized that "If I break this covenant, may this [being cut in half] happent to me as well." It was a symbol of commitment.
When God gave the Abrahamic Covenant to Abraham, He had Abraham cut animals and lay the parts forming an aisle--exactly the way a typical covenant would begin. Then, Abraham had a vision from God. In it, God appeared (in the form of a torch) and moved through the aisle. This began the Abrahamic Covenant between God and His people.
It's very important to note that God was the only one who walked through the aisle. The Covenant depends fully on God, not on us. Even when we are unfaithful, God is faithful to us.

[TaCo-BoB]

if you get saved and deny your faith later you lose your salvation.

[MeekOne]

And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

[ClaireZ]

Once Saved always Saved.

Though we may not choose to follow God's Will, and receive the best for our Lives, God will not throw us out of his family, once we have been adopted.

[tqpix]

I used to believe in the concept of once saved, always saved; but not anymore:

Hebrews 6:4-6

[FullyAmbivalent]

Salvation is gained by following the teachings of Christ. If you neglect to follow those teachings you are no saved. You can follow the teachings for a time and be saved for a time, but the second you give in to temptation you have lost your salvation. Salvation is not just a warm feeling but a true change in a person. Without action there is no salvation.

[tqpix]

Salvation is gained by following the teachings of Christ. If you neglect to follow those teachings you are no saved. You can follow the teachings for a time and be saved for a time, but [1] the second you give in to temptation you have lost your salvation. [2] Salvation is not just a warm feeling but a true change in a person. Without action there is no salvation.[1] Not necessarily; remember, anything is forgivable except blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

[2] I agree:

James 2:20

[statrei]

I used to believe in the concept of once saved, always saved; but not anymore:

Hebrews 6:4-64 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Which means that you must also believe that we only get one chance at salvation and if we blow it that's the end for us. Read the text carefully. It says it is impossible for anyone who falls away to be renewed unto repentance. [b]Impossible[/]. I hope you are not making any effort to try to accomplish among other people what God says is impossible, because that would put you in direct conflict with your Creator.

[statrei]

How else am I to establish it but by the way Jesus did? If you have a different way, do post it.You are not going by what Jesus taught but by wha