Do you believe that once you are saved, you are always saved? [Archive] - Page 3

Ben johnson

7th November 2003, 02:44 PM

I guess I am really questioning my faith these days, I was raised a christian, believed in Christ at a very early age, which I think is good at times, and sometimes not as good. I went through kind of denial stage in high school, ended up going to a christian private college, which really opened my eyes to the Lord, and I believe today, that my faith is stronger then it has ever been, but many times i doubt my faith, with things I do, and wonder, would a christian do this?You know what? I have news for you --- you are PERFECTLY NORMAL. EVERYONE at some point questions their faith; doesn't matter if you are BILLY GRAHM or if you were PAUL HIMSELF. There's a good book, "A Celebration of Discipline" (Richard Foster I think); under the discipline of "Solitude" is something he calls, "Dark Night of the Soul". This is a sense of "dryness", when it seems God is not close; Scripture reading and prayer do not seem to appeal to us"; he says, "This is not a state to be FEARED, but one to be EMBRACED. By taking us away from the distractions, by covering us with a sense of quiet and stillness, it teaches us to BE STILL and to WAIT ON GOD. Rather than DAMAGE our faith, it can STRENGTHEN us."

Another thing, is the idea of FORGIVENESS. IN the Lord's Prayer, the one concept He felt important enough to expound upon, was FORGIVENESS; if we do not forgive others, GOD WILL NOT FORGIVE US! Have you realized, that includes YOURSELF? You are Human, Peteey; you do make mistakes, you do sin. So does Ben johnson; all of us. We repent, He forgives us. If WE do not then forgive OURSLVES, then we are REJECTING HIS FORGIVENESS!!! We cannot touch the past, it is smoke; we cannot touch the future, it is shadow; all we have is this PAPER-THIN-SLICE-OF-NOW. Lives are built by TAKING that paper and laying it down; and on top, the next instant, and the next and the next. What you did in the past cannot be changed, but it can be REPENTED FROM; then God's forgiveness and cleansing through Jesus' blood covers us, and we are clean; but we must forgive ourselves. This does not become "license to sin" --- but reason to strive for righteousness.

We walk in righteousness because of Jesus IN US; we do not practice sin as we did before we were saved.

Both "OSAS" and "OSNAS" can agree perfectly, on MANY THINGS; if both agree that salvation is FELLOWSHIP, that it is INDWELT by Jesus and by the Spirit, then the question of FALLING really doesn't MATTER. It's not something that should cause worry; but only drive us closer to Jesus.

"Resist the devil and he will flee from you; draw near to God and He will draw near to you." Jms4

:)

PS: God does one more thing after He forgives us, that's really quite amazing; I do not understand it, really; but I am grateful. God, infinite and perfect, perfect memory --- after He forgives us, He FORGETS that we EVER DID THE SIN! Really somethin'...

Ben johnson

7th November 2003, 03:02 PM

What is considered righteousness and what is considered unrighteousness? (just out of curiosity....) Look at Gal5:19-24, 1Cor6:9-11. And 2Pet1:5-11. But what I think it really boils down to, is the question, "Is Jesus REAL to you?" So many people view themselves as "driving down the road of life, Jesus and God and the Spirit all nicely wrapped and packaged and sitting beside them to help if needed. There is a UNIVERSE of difference between "believing" (Jms2:19), and being INDWELT. I laugh when I see the bumper sticker, "GOD IS MY COPILOT" --- I think, you're in the WRONG SEAT!!! Gal2:20 ;)

Do we think of Jesus only on Sunday? Or maybe 3-5 times a week? Or do we AWAKEN in His presence, and take each step with our hand in His? Are we surrendered/submitted? DOes He really indwell our hearts? What are our prayers lke? Do we spend time with Him? Do we read the word? When we pray, is it only to asik for toys? I think prayer should be:

1. Praise, worship; God craves this, it's why we were made.
2. Repentance. He has PROMISED to forgive that-which-we-confess. 1Jn1:9
3. Thanksgiving. Did you EAT today? Are you clothed and warm? Many are not. He never tires of "THANK YOU", and it forces us to realize we're only SQUATTERS; God really owns everything. Forces us to be humble.
4. Intercession. Prayer moves God, and MANY have been saved because of the prayers of others. Praying for friends AND enemies focuses us OFF of our natural "selfishness", and grows our love.
5. Fellowship. Do you know, that as YOU dlelight in GOD'S presence, HE DELIGHTS IN YOURS? He really does.
6. Pettition. How often does prayer begin & end only with this?! He's not our "cosmic Santa", He's our DAD! The Psalmist said (37:4) "Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart." key here, is that if you are delighting in the Lord, YOUR desires will be HIS. Jesus promises in Matt6 "ask and you shall receive, knock and the door will be opened, seek and you shall find." James says (ch4) "You have not because you ask not; or you ask wrongly to spend it on your passions."

I don't think prayer should be limited to just a few minutes a day. I think an entire LIFE can be a prayer. As the late Keith Green said, "Why do some wait for DEATH to complete their fellowship with God? When we die we will be with Him PHYSICALLY, but why can't we be with Him SPIRITUALLY, just as much, NOW, while we LIVE?"

No reason, Keith; no reason at all.
:)

peteey

7th November 2003, 03:18 PM

PS: God does one more thing after He forgives us, that's really quite amazing; I do not understand it, really; but I am grateful. God, infinite and perfect, perfect memory --- after He forgives us, He FORGETS that we EVER DID THE SIN! Really somethin'...

Amen to that!! Thank you!! Covered by the blood of the lamb!

Palatka44

8th November 2003, 01:13 AM

With respect, I disagree. Think about what you're proposing --- this one is IMMORAL, he is WORSE than the HEATHEN-GENTILES. Now suppose he dies --- in his immorality, UNREPENTANT. Do you think that an UNREPENTANT IMMORAL MAN can go to Heaven? What of Paul in 1Cor6:9-11, Gal5:19-21, and what of Jesus in Matt7:16-20, or John in 1:3:7-10? UNRIGHTEOUS will NOT go to Heaven!

Consider Hymenaeus and Alexander and Philetus; Paul says "they suffered shipwreck of their faith, they have GONE ASTRAY FROM THE TRUTH"; Paul says, "I have delivered over to satan, that they be taught not to blaspheme." 1Tim1:19-20, 2Tim2:17-18

I think the 1Cor5 passage says the same thing, that he will be "delivered to satan for fleshly punishment/destruction, that he might come to repentance." Does that make sense?

;)
And my assertion is that the truly saved individual will repent. I do not know if the person in 1 Corintians chapter 5 ever repented but if he never did then he was never saved. However if he did repent he was a saved child of God.

May I ask you a question while we are on the subject of repenting?
How does one repent of dying? To experence death is a sin. If sin must be repented of to remain saved then we all are in jeopardy of hell due to death.
While this may seem to be a loaded question it is not. I think that we agree that in our act of dying we fully put our trust in Christ to bring us alive again without ever repenting of that sin. You see we can't help ourselves we are going to die. We are going to sin. The difference is this, the lost will not seek repentence the saved will do all they can to repent. So if at our time to die we turst Christ to keep that which we have commited we then should in every situation rely on Christ in like manner.

I for one find that I must repent daily and regularly. However I know that if I sin without repentence (death) He is able to see me through.

Ben johnson

8th November 2003, 01:41 AM

To experence death is a sin. I've never heard of this idea. What is its basis? Why do you believe physical death is a sin?
I for one find that I must repent daily and regularly. I would concur with that. 1Jn3 says "no one born of God sins, indeed he CANNOT sin if the Spirit of God abides in him." This would seem to contradict 1Jn1: "If we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us; if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

BUT the understanding of ch3, is PRACTICING sin; we do occasionally sin, but we continually dwell in repentance; so we do not do the same sin over-and-over. We strive for righteousness, through Christ.

The saved do not practice sin, the lost do; God only laughs at the man who says, "Forgive me for the sin I committed yesterday, the same one that I'm GONNA COMMIT TOMORROW"...

Sunbeam

8th November 2003, 05:35 PM

Wether you realize it or not, when Moses was on the earth, God only spoke to Moses. (Others tried to usurp his authority and they ALL met with an untimely end -- Book of Numbers.) When Moses died of a ripe old age, Joshua took over and God only spoke to him. When Elijah was on the earth, God only spoke to him until Elisha took over. The point being, I'm it!!!! God is only speaking to me so that the words I speak are of God Almighty. Yes, I am the Prophet of God for this generation.
Hate to burst your bubble here but we are in the NT now and according to 1 Cor 14 this gift is handed out to many. Not just one.
Sunbeam: The_Saint, you try my patience. Enjoy Ignore.

Sunbeam

8th November 2003, 05:39 PM

lookes like "once you are saved you are always saved" has the most votes. I personaly dont see how people can view it like this

Sunbeam: I can't either, but it sure would make life seem easier for a while...........

Sunbeam

8th November 2003, 05:56 PM

I'm at work still, but I will try to get some Bible verses out when I get home. What a reasurence it is to know that you are saved and not have to worry about losing it....

Sunbeam: Funny how people are different, I was very relie ved to hear a couple of years ago that there was a position that said that people could lose favor or salvation. Because now, my life has real meaning, and motivation, and people who claimed to me that they were saved and did in no way act like it who threw it in my face that they could be any way they felt like it, do not confuse me anymore.

It is very confusing to reconcile these common OSAS statements:

Repent, and believe and the Lord commanded us

You don't have to change, only if you feel you want

Palatka44

8th November 2003, 10:04 PM

I've never heard of this idea. What is its basis? Why do you believe physical death is a sin?
1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I would concur with that. 1Jn3 says "no one born of God sins, indeed he CANNOT sin if the Spirit of God abides in him." This would seem to contradict 1Jn1: "If we say we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us; if we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Couldn't we link this verse with the following verses so as not to have a conflict in doctrine?
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
James 2:23
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Psalm 32:1-5
1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.

Here David confesses his sin but if you'll note the promise before his confession. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. In God's eye there is no sin applied to the believer because it is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity.
Again the LORD will not impute sin where the blood of Christ is applied.
This conflict of scripural doctrine is resolved by our acknowledgement of our sin and God (upon seeing that His Son died for our sin) will not impute it to us.
BUT the understanding of ch3, is PRACTICING sin; we do occasionally sin, but we continually dwell in repentance; so we do not do the same sin over-and-over. We strive for righteousness, through Christ.

The saved do not practice sin, the lost do; God only laughs at the man who says, "Forgive me for the sin I committed yesterday, the same one that I'm GONNA COMMIT TOMORROW"...
I couldn't agree with you more. However I never made this statement, "Forgive me for the sin I committed yesterday, the same one that I'm GONNA COMMIT TOMORROW" nor have I implied it nor do I ascribe to it.

Sunbeam

8th November 2003, 10:08 PM

It is very confusing to reconcile these common OSAS statements:

Repent, and believe and the Lord commanded us

You don't have to change, only if you feel you want

Correction: Repent and believe AS the Lord commanded us.

Palatka44

8th November 2003, 10:27 PM

Sunbeam

8th November 2003, 10:52 PM

Where I think most people get confused (not that I'm implying that you are) about OSAS is that some, that are not founded in scripture, have been told that you are saved and no matter what you do you are ok.

Well I am one OSAS advocate that believes you are not ok. I believe that my Lord expects me to be like Him. Sense the age of 9 I've believed that I should be holy as He is holy. As I've lived I've tried to walk according to His stride. Try as I might though His stride is sometimes longer than mine and my stride has failed me on occation. He has always been faithful to set me right time after time and time again He has never failed me. If by His will I live another 40+ years I have this assurance that no matter what He will keep my paths lighted and straight. And on the day that He calls me home I'll have no fear for as He helped me through life He'll be faithful to me in death. This is therefore my resolve and I'll never contemplate any other path.
Sunbeam: I agree with you. Most OSAS it seems are of the other kind, but I don't think for a minute that it was at first taught to be that way. I think the OSAS got changed along the way somehow. I have thought that there were two kinds of OSAS and the one kind I agree with but since I cannot find it to be a dominating force in the churches, it bothers me and I do not think of myself with that label. There are also arminians that believe one must do whatever the church says which is not the kind of arminian that I believe in. I agree with your whole post. The C and A thing isn't so cut and dry, I know. I am glad that you have made that distinction between what is founded biblically and what is not. What I respectfully call, the new kind of OSAS, is something I do not think is supported by scripture.

OnederWoman

9th November 2003, 03:24 AM

yes, I believe that onve you are saved you are always saved... actually I believe in the elect.

Ben johnson

10th November 2003, 05:55 AM

Ben, our study is deep and I do enjoy our posts. We are not that (if at all) far apart. Where I think most people get confused (not that I'm implying that you are) about OSAS is that some, that are not founded in scripture, have been told that you are saved and no matter what you do you are ok.I have found there are THREE views of "OSAS"; the first is "Carnal Christianity" (see "Antinomianism"); this view DOES believe that "no matter WHAT one does one CAN be saved". I have debated with those who BELIEVE this. Yours is the SECOND, "Calvinism" (or "limited atonement", or "predestined-election", or "irresistible grace". Sometimes, "hyper-Calvinism".) Though you and I have many things in common (the "fellowship" aspect of salvation, and our obligation to pursue righteousness, realizing that the PURSUIT flows from the SAVED HEART and works do NOT save us), it is the THIRD view of OSAS that has most in common with "Responsible Grace"; that third view is "eternal security". These last two views are IDENTICAL in regards to COMING to salvation --- that "atonement is UNIVERSALLY OFFERED", not "limited"; each man (woman) has sufficient faith to either RECEIVE Jesus or REJECT Him.
Well I am one OSAS advocate that believes you are not ok. I believe that my Lord expects me to be like Him. Sense the age of 9 I've believed that I should be holy as He is holy. As I've lived I've tried to walk according to His stride. Try as I might though His stride is sometimes longer than mine and my stride has failed me on occasion. He has always been faithful to set me right time after time and time again He has never failed me. If by His will I should live another 40+ years I have this assurance that no matter what He will keep my paths lighted and straight. And on the day that He calls me home I'll have no fear for as He helped me through life He'll be faithful to me in death. This is therefore my resolve and I'll never contemplate any other path.
THere is FAR more agreement in this than not; in fact, sufficient agreement for you and I to walk SIDE BY SIDE, in God's will, knowing that we BOTH are saved. And we can both serve God well in the Great harvest; that is my prayer, and obviously your prayer also.

:)

MR T

10th November 2003, 01:09 PM

hi god bless

Ben johnson

10th November 2003, 05:17 PM

Hi, Mr. T! Welcome to the boards!

(LOVE your necklaces...)
:P

djconklin

10th November 2003, 05:22 PM

For a good study on this see Robert Shank's Life in the Son: A Study of the Doctrine of Perseverance (Wescott, 1961).

Ben johnson

10th November 2003, 11:36 PM

I have "Elect in the Son" --- excellent book; hear "Life in the Son" is equally good.

Welcome to the boards, DJ!

--bj

MAC

11th November 2003, 02:50 AM

It is in the most interesting that in one hand we read the word of God and found that (yes) there is the evidence of the word of God to indicate Eternal Salvation by His own power and also we can find in the same word of God that we most; walk, get, come, and received Christ in order to have Everlasting. I some times asked my self if God place them in that manner to bring confusion but He did not, He have place this word and history in a way that only Him can reveal to man by His power to understand His wonderful gospel unto men. As I continue to asked Him to show me and to give me understanding to understand His word, it is a very hard task in front of me for the word of God was not made easy to understand by human standard but by the power of Christ that causeth me to understand.

Take care and may the Lord Jesus Christ glorify Himself in His redemptive word in Calvary.

alonesoldier

11th November 2003, 05:36 AM

Not to get to far off topic but a Army chaplain explained it to me this way. Their isn't a salvation event. You don't gain salvation and loose salvation. That implies you had something to do with it in the first place. As unamerican as it sounds, some people are born into the fold and some are not. I still believe in the gross yucky word of predestination. But I still don't like the idea and beleive that people are still accountable for the choices that they have made.

Ben johnson

12th November 2003, 03:31 AM

As unamerican as it sounds, some people are born into the fold and some are not. I still believe in the gross yucky word of predestination. But I still don't like the idea and beleive that people are still accountable for the choices that they have made.How can both be true? If God "installs born-again-hearts" (which CAUSE belief/faith), then how can Rom1:20 ("They are without excuse") be true?

I agree with you that "accountability" means "no excuse"; but I don't understand how we are accountable if God elects us...

Warandpeace

12th November 2003, 05:03 PM

Once you are saved through Babtism you never have to babtized again. You can fall away and then repent but you are alsways "saved".
Than when you go before God you still have to account for everything that you have done.

Warandpeace

12th November 2003, 05:07 PM

I dont believe that anyone is born saved . We are born innocent and faltless.
Everyone still has to repent of any and all sin and then be Babtized before they are trully saved.

Sunbeam

13th November 2003, 01:09 AM

How can both be true? If God "installs born-again-hearts" (which CAUSE belief/faith), then how can Rom1:20 ("They are without excuse") be true?

I agree with you that "accountability" means "no excuse"; but I don't understand how we are accountable if God elects us...
Yup, I agree.

Sunbeam

13th November 2003, 01:19 AM

It's very popular to believe that once you intellectually believe, even at age five, you are always saved. But that view doesn't comprehend what it means to see what your sins are, nor repent of them as in change even once. It only wants you to admit you are wrong, and expect God to help you overcome. It is so general as to what sin really is, and as to this period of overcoming, and maintainance of such, it's not what I read in the bible.

It's always confused me, and I am so glad I am not confused like that anymore. Now, I just have to be good. I don't mean be prideful, and arrogant in my works. I mean stay repentant.

aimee

13th November 2003, 02:26 PM

aimee

13th November 2003, 02:34 PM

About predestination -- I don't believe that it means you are simply born saved. Even though you are chosen of God, you HAVE to accept Him as your Saviour. That's where free will comes in. Take for example God's true chosen ones, the Jewish people. Many reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah, but they are still God's elect.

theFijian

13th November 2003, 02:41 PM

I dont believe that anyone is born savedCorrect, but with a qualifier. The elect are known to God even before they are born, since before the beginning of time.

We are born innocent and faltless.Well that would be a straight out contradiction.

Romans 3:23 - 'All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'
Psalm 51:1 - 'Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.'
Romans 3:10-12 - 'As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Everyone still has to repent of any and all sin and then be Babtized before they are trully saved.Baptism being an outward sign of an inward covenant with God and itself having no part to play in regeneration.

Blessings,

Andy

Palatka44

13th November 2003, 06:00 PM

What about this verse?

False Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order, if possible, to lead the elect astray (Mark 13:22).

What would the point be of leading God's chosen people to stray if they would still go to heaven? This is just something I am wondering about -- I'm not trying to make a point.
Please note the IF POSSIBLE, it will not be possible to lead the elect astray. Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice and will not hear the voice of a stranger".
John 10:2-5
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. :clap:

Ben johnson

13th November 2003, 06:22 PM

Sunbeam

13th November 2003, 08:59 PM

Sondog

14th November 2003, 04:24 AM

Rev 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. NKJV

Rom 11:20-22
Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. NKJV

Vxer1000

14th November 2003, 05:08 PM

Sunbeam

14th November 2003, 08:53 PM

This scripture shows that it is still the individuals choice to remain in a saved state and that it is very much possible.
Good scriptures!

Lady Éowyn

17th November 2003, 05:45 AM

READ

VERY

IMPORTANT!

Very sorry about this but I want to catch everyone's attention, cause it is important!

I URGE YOU ALL IF YOU AGREE THAT ONCE SAVE ALWAYS SAVE, TO READ A VERY GOOD, GOOD BOOK BY DAVID PAWSON CALLED.

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVE?

Get it at

http://www.goodseed.org/books.htm (http://www.goodseed.org/books.htm)

I really do hope you all would read this if your interested about once save always save. It will help you understand God's word on this!! He only teaches what God has said in his Word.

And another thing is that you can believe that what he says is true and not just some other pastor beliefs.

He is a very remarkable men! Should listen about the Miracles that happen to him! Get the tape, Books on Burden and you see what I mean. :)

Actually I will tell you one! Hope I remember it all!

ASTRONDING MIRACLE!

David Pawson has just finished writing his script that he wrote out in pen on the Book called Road to Hell.

Now what I remember is that he was in Italy heading off to live the country when suddenly he remember on the jumbo jet that he left his brief case at the Airport!!!!! He told his friend on the AirPlan about it and they said he needed to go back to Italy and get it! Since if he doesn't he can't print the book because he only wrote one rough script for it.

So he rang his wife telling her of the incident and I think she told him that if you lose things in Italy like your Brief case, then it would be gone for good!!!

As expected when he arrived to the Air-port asking the officials and going to lost property if they have a black brief case, they told him, they haven't seen anything at all!! So it was lost and cannot be found now. Oh dear....

So then he told the Lord that if he 'really' wanted the book to be published then he would have to find some way of giving it back to him because he said he ain't going to write another copy of the book!! :) But if the Lord doesn't want it to be published then let it be lost! :)

Can you guess what happend????

It remained lost??? While he was 500miles I think, or some where far away from Italy he was in the Streets and SUDDENLY!

A PERSON RUSH UP TO HIM AND PUSHED A BRIEF CASE INTO HIS ARM AND RAN AWAY!!

TO HIS ASTONISHMENT IT WAS HIS BRIEF CASE!!! HE OPENED IT AND THERE IT WAS!!! ALL HIS PAPER WORK HE DID FOR THE BOOK!!! EVERY SINGLE PAGE OF IT!

HE SAID UP TO THIS DAY HE DOESN'T KNOW WHO IT WAS THAT GAVE HIM HIS BRIEF CASE BUT IT WAS A VERY STRONGGGGGGG SIGN THAT THE LORD WANTED HIM TO PUBLISHED THE BOOK!!

so there you go what an astonishing miracle!!!!!

THE LORD GAVE BACK HIS BRIEF CASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO YOU CAN TRUST THAT WHAT YOU READ IS CERTAINLY WHAT GOD WANTS US TO KNOW AND NOT SOME PERSON ONLY PERSONAL IDEAS ON IT. EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY QUOTE THINGS FROM THE BIBLE BACKING UP WHAT THEY SAID.

WHAT YOU READ IN THE BOOKS FROM DAVID PAWSON IS WHAT GOD HAS SAID IN HIS WORD! :)

BLESS YOU ALLLLLL

LOVE IN CHRIST
Lady Éowyn

takeastand

17th November 2003, 06:26 AM

I agree with Candidus

Palatka44

17th November 2003, 10:22 AM

What about this verse?

False Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order, if possible, to lead the elect astray (Mark 13:22).

What would the point be of leading God's chosen people to stray if they would still go to heaven? This is just something I am wondering about -- I'm not trying to make a point.

Aimee, I've thought about that myself. That's why I'm not OSAS now. I think the warnings are for all of us without any exceptions.Please note that the verse that you quoted says if possible. It is not possible to leed the child from the father. The verse is simply stating the magnitude of the desception. It will be so strong that if Christ did not interveen then the elect would be lost.
The KJV reads
Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Now to back up my above statement that Christ will not allow the elect to be deceived or led astray.
Matt 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Palatka44

17th November 2003, 10:25 AM

Palatka44

17th November 2003, 11:02 AM

I think this points it out pretty well:

Galatians 5
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

You can't fall from grace unless you were once there(after having been born again).

2 Peter 2
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Your salvation is based on being born again in Christ. After that it is based on what direction you are heading in(toward or away from Christ) and whether or not you are living a repented life:

Genesis 13
10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
11 Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.
12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

Hebrews 10
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Luke 9
61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

This last scripture shows that you can't be looking at the world(looking away from God) and ready to meet God. Remember Lot's wife?

2 Peter 1
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

This scripture shows that it is still the individuals choice to remain in a saved state and that it is very much possible.When the individual child of God desides to sin they are then subject to the law for chastisement. This punishment is met in this life not in eternity. If I were to sin (and do now profess that sin is ever present while I remain I this body until death) I have put aside grace for to be judged according to the law while I yet remain here. Christ will never let me die in my sin. However death remains to be dealt with.
There is nothing I can do to stop death from coming for me. To experence death is to sin. So when all is said and done and even though if I had lived a "sinless life" I will still sin at death. This is where our faith is totaly in Christ. When He died He overcame death. I must put my faith in Him tursting that He can cause me to overcome death just as He did. If I can then trust that He will cause me to overcome the sting of death (1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.) I can surely trust Him to help me overcome any sin that may come in my life.(1 Corinthians 15:54-55
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?)

Have Faith Good People and know that no matter what, Christ will never let you stray beyond salvation.:clap:

Palatka44

17th November 2003, 11:06 AM

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Vxer1000

17th November 2003, 01:13 PM

When the individual child of God desides to sin they are then subject to the law for chastisement. This punishment is met in this life not in eternity. If I were to sin (and do now profess that sin is ever present while I remain I this body until death) I have put aside grace for to be judged according to the law while I yet remain here. Christ will never let me die in my sin. However death remains to be dealt with.
There is nothing I can do to stop death from coming for me. To experence death is to sin. So when all is said and done and even though if I had lived a "sinless life" I will still sin at death. This is where our faith is totaly in Christ. When He died He overcame death. I must put my faith in Him tursting that He can cause me to overcome death just as He did. If I can then trust that He will cause me to overcome the sting of death (1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.) I can surely trust Him to help me overcome any sin that may come in my life.(1 Corinthians 15:54-55
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?)

Have Faith Good People and know that no matter what, Christ will never let you stray beyond salvation.:clap:

What about the prodigal son? It said he was dead.
What about the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins? The door was shut, but they were all virgins(meaning they were born again and washed clean).
What about this:

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Luke 12
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The first commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. How do you demonstrate to anyone that you actually love them? You put their needs before your own or in this case by doing the will of God. Otherwise you prove by your actions that you don't love God. Yes, Jesus paid the price for our sins but that doesn't give you a free ride. The bible says we still labor to enter into that rest(it takes our faith which is the cause of our works).

Hebrews 4
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Ben johnson

17th November 2003, 01:41 PM

Fall from faith but not out of salvation.Do you think it's really possible to be "faithlessly saved"?

If "yes", then what is salvation?

Palatka44

17th November 2003, 01:58 PM

What about the prodigal son? It said he was dead.
What about the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins? The door was shut, but they were all virgins(meaning they were born again and washed clean).
What about this:

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Luke 12
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The first commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. How do you demonstrate to anyone that you actually love them? You put their needs before your own or in this case by doing the will of God. Otherwise you prove by your actions that you don't love God. Yes, Jesus paid the price for our sins but that doesn't give you a free ride. The bible says we still labor to enter into that rest(it takes our faith which is the cause of our works).

Hebrews 4
1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.Please understand the full measure of grace. May these verses help you to understand.
Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Can any one of us say that we are without sin?
Of corse we can't.
If then in our own eyes we are sinners, how much more then are we in the eyes of God?
The very faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ removes all our sin from God's eye. They are not remembered.
Hebrews 10
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Does this give me a license to do all the sin that can be done without remorse? NO!
Sorry... ahem.... I got carried away. I just can't tollerate any belief that advocates that side of OSAS doctrine.
Titus 1
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Palatka44

17th November 2003, 02:09 PM

Do you think it's really possible to be "faithlessly saved"?

If "yes", then what is salvation?
No it is not possible to be saved without faith. My faith is not on my works to gain salvation. My faith is that Christ has made salvation complete and my faith is that He will see me through my life. I will never reject Him, never.
So please forgive me for a hasty remark, I'll take a mulligan on that one.:sigh:

Ben johnson

17th November 2003, 10:17 PM

I'll take a mulligan on that one.You're a GOLFER, huh? I"ve made a "hole-in-one" on the par 3, several times; "Papillon Course", Paris.
Uhm, Nintendo Virtual Boy, alas...

There are many verses that speak of "falling from faith, "falling from steadfastness", etc; sometimes OSAS people try to assert that "you can be UNSTEADFAST, or FAITHLESS, but STILL SAVED". I'm pleased to read your reponse.

One question --- where did your faith in Jesus come FROM? Those in the "predestined-election" camp claim that salvic faith is BESTOWED (intilled, installed?) by God --- UNILATERALLY (with no regard to our own wills, or to the point REPLACING the sinful-rebellious-will with godly-righteous-seeking-will).

Palatka44

18th November 2003, 04:50 PM

You're a GOLFER, huh? I"ve made a "hole-in-one" on the par 3, several times; "Papillon Course", Paris.
Uhm, Nintendo Virtual Boy, alas...

There are many verses that speak of "falling from faith, "falling from steadfastness", etc; sometimes OSAS people try to assert that "you can be UNSTEADFAST, or FAITHLESS, but STILL SAVED". I'm pleased to read your reponse.

One question --- where did your faith in Jesus come FROM? Those in the "predestined-election" camp claim that salvic faith is BESTOWED (intilled, installed?) by God --- UNILATERALLY (with no regard to our own wills, or to the point REPLACING the sinful-rebellious-will with godly-righteous-seeking-will).
Where do you stand on this Ben? Personaly my faith came when I was willing to open the door of my heart to the one that was knocking on it.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I had to open that door. He did not force His way in (Behold, I stand at the door, and knock). However now that He is in here He will never leave (I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me) and I will never usher Him out. Again I will never usher Him out. Sense He is going no where and I will not ask Him to leave He will always set my paths straight (As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten).
Revelation 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I can not understand those that say that they have the free will to ask Him to leave. Sense He stept over the threshold my will is no more.
Romans 8:26-27
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Again this shows that this is His will that the Spirit will have total control.
Romans 9:19-21
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Paul also says this.
1 Corinthians 6:12
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
How is it that Paul can say this and then declair that he will not be brought undr the power of any? It's simple, The will of the Holy Spirit will not allow him to be brought under the power of any. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Ben johnson

18th November 2003, 06:19 PM

Where do you stand on this Ben? Personaly my faith came when I was willing to open the door of my heart to the one that was knocking on it. As I said, there are THREE beliefs of "OSAS". The one that says "salvic-faith is from GOD", is "Predestined-Election" ("Calvinism", "Limited Atonement", "Irresistible Grace"). You hold the THIRD view, "Eternal Security" --- that atonement was unlimited in availability, each Human is drawn to Jesus, and whoever believes is saved. But each, if truly saved, cannot be unsaved.

I posted on a couple of other threads questions about a couple of Scriptures. If there are verses that say "one CAN become UNSAVED", then all three views of OSAS are toppled. The two main passages I used, were 2Pet2:20-22, and Gal3:1-3 & 5:1-7. To remain in "OSAS", one MUST have an understanding of these verses (and many others --- in the text I'm writing I have an appendix that lists "Verses That Stand Against OSAS" --- 39 at this moment). The possible understandings that allow OSAS, are very limited:

1. They were never really saved to BEGIN with, maybe only APPEARED saved
2. They didn't really FALL, but really REMAINED saved
3. These are fanciful stories, HYPERBOLE, fatherly warnings to keep us "in line", but without realy power, because they can't REALLY happen.
4. There is a device that allows us to ignore entire letters of the Bible; either they were written to a different DISPENSATION than ours (thus we ignore them), or they were written for JEWS ONLY (even though Eph3:28 says "there IS no Jew nor Greek, we are saved the SAME"...)

We can discredit #1, because Jesus says "it is impossible to serve two masters" (Matt6:24), and Paul writes that "you are either slaves to SIN or slaves to RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Rm6:15-16 --- notice it says "present yourselves", a clear CHOICE of servitude). And the biggest problem is Matt7:18, Jesus said "no BAD tree can produce GOOD fruits" --- so to say "they only APPEARED escaped/saved" flat contradicts Jesus.

#1 is further discredited by the Gal passage, which says "they BEGAN by the Spirit, they WERE running WELL". There is no way that could ever mean "not-really-saved". And those in 2Pet2 are described word-for-Greek-word the same as the undeniably saved in 2Pet1: "Apopheugo-escaped corruption/defilements through the epignosis-saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

#2 can be discredited because those in 2Pet are "again entangled in defilements and OVERCOME"; they are "epistrepho-ek turned FROM the holy commandment, after having epiginosko-truly-KNOWN-it. They became pigs/dogs AGAIN, by "epistrepho-epi-returning-TO-the-mire", and by "epistrepho-eis-eturning-UNTO-the-vomit". Those in Galatians are now "severed from Christ, fallen from grace" --- can those words ever NOT mean "severed/fallen"?

#3 can be discredited, because 2Peter is not written as "rhetorical/hypothetical empty warning", it reads as real; and the Gal passage refers to REAL PEOPLE with a REAL HISTORY --- it is NOT a "fanciful story".

#4 --- how do I argue against this? Is not "all Scripture INSPIRED BY GOD? And suitable for teaching, reproof, correction, training in righteousness"? (2Tim3:16) How then can we "pick and choose which parts to ACCEPT, and which parts to THROW OUT"? Once we adopt the "right" to disregard parts of Scripture, what will be the standard or measure to determine which is which? Besides --- my list of "39 verses" spans the whole NEW TESTAMENT. So it would be the ENTIRE BIBLE that would get "thrown out" to accomodate one of the "OSAS" dogmas.
How is it that Paul can say this and then declare that he will not be brought under the power of any? This is a "statement of our will", a "positive assurance". There are several "positive assurances" that are ENCOURAGEMENT, rather than DICTATE --- Heb10:39 is one (and follows an entire CHAPTER that speaks of "falling away"), Philip1:6 is one (which precedes verses 9-10, a prayer for us to CONTINUE IN SALVATION).

Also, Paul was openly contradicting a pop-culturism of the time in Corinth, "EVERYTHING is LAWFUL!" Paul says, "MAYBE, but not everything is BENEFICIAL."
I can not understand those that say that they have the free will to ask Him to leave. Sense He stept over the threshold my will is no more.Look at all the WARNING verses. "Be careful that you not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, to falling away from the living God; we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Heb3); "He will present you before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT be moved away from Jesus" (Col1:23); "SEE that no one takes you CAPTIVE away from Jesus" (Col2:8), "be on your guard lest you are carried away by error of unprincipled men and FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS" (2Pet3:17; "I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3 How can we take so many WARNINGS, and interpret them all as "empty hyperbole, exaggeration just to TEACH us but they're not REAL"?

Is there any way LEFT, some possibility to understand the Bible as "sympathetic towards OSAS"? I don't see how...

Read in its entirety, 2Peter is completely against OSAS. Hebrews is too (read 12:25, and 12:15 --- "see that none of you FAIL God's GRACE!"). So does James (see 1:14-16, 5:19-20 especially). Really, every letter in the NT stands against "you-can't-fall-from-salvation". Even Jude, who declares in vs21, "KEEP YOURSEVLES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ to salvation".

All of that, is why I believe in "Responsible Grace". Like you, Palatka, I believe that every last person is given the opportunity to be saved; and like you I believe that salvation is by "born again", a changed heart; indwelt by Jesus and by the Spirit. But I understand that the entire FELLOWSHIP between God and myself, is founded on my belief; and I see in Scripture that belief can be deceived. Why would Paul write, "Some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" in 1Tim4:1? Can they "fall-from-the-faith" if they were never IN the faith? Can they "pay attention to deceitful spirits and demonic doctrines" but still be SAVED? How many possible understandings can that verse have?

We do not WORK for our salvation; either to acquire --- for it is simply RECEIVED through BELIEF; nor to abide, for it is through belief that HE abides in US. And yet, we are to keep oursevles in His love, to protect ourselves against antichrists and deceivers. As John says (2:1:7-9), that we do not "go too far and not-abide-in-His-teachings, so as to no longer have GOD!

Grace is none of us; entirely of God. Yet salvation is our receiving that gift, through our faith, faith/belief that is born of our own hearts (Rom10:10, 6:17). He is eternally faithful to us (even if we are unfaithful and FALL --- 2Tim2:11-14), will never leave us (Heb13:5), and never revoke our gift (Rom11:29); but we are responsible with that gift (Col2:6m Rin8:12ff).

Did I explain that OK? Lots of Scripture references given; I leave it to each viewer to look them all up. (And you all had BETTER look ALL of them up, there's gonna be a TEST on them NEXT WEEK! ;) )

Palatka44

18th November 2003, 10:09 PM

Ben, I'm sorry but I must ask this question. Are you tempting me to sin against the Holy Spirit and deny that He is able to keep me from falling?

Jude 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

All of the verses that you have cited are to challenge us to be holy as He is holy. If I look to myself for holliness I'll not find it. I find it in Him and in Him alone. As soon as I look to myself I find sin.
Romans 7:14-21
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me..

The scripture is clear we are to look to Him to keep us from falling. I will never fall, for I'll always trust Him to keep me. To say that He can't and that He will just let me walk away boarders on blasphemy in my opinion. While the scriptures challenges (13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me,) us it also points us to the one who will keep us.(in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.)
2 Timothy 1:12-14
12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
Jude 20-25
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith,(challenge) praying in the Holy Ghost,(the one who keeps us from falling)
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God,(challenge) looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ (the one that is inables us to keep that challenge) unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.(It is He who will deserve to wear our crown for it is He who has kept us):clap:

Now in light of this, to deny the Holy Ghost power to keep us then aren't we endowing ourselves with more power than He?

Ben johnson

18th November 2003, 11:16 PM

Ben, I'm sorry but I must ask this question. Are you tempting me to sin against the Holy Spirit and deny that He is able to keep me from falling?No one (no Christian, anyway) denies that God is ABLE to keep us. What is at issue, is what role does our own FAITH/BELIEF play in His "keeping-us"? Peter declares: "Protected by the power of God, THROUGH FAITH for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." 1:1:5

Predestined-electionists ("Limited-Atonement", "Calvinism") insist that "salvic-belief", or "salvic-faith", is IMPOSED by Gpd. You and I have the understanding that "salvic-faith" comes from the HEART. Imposed-faith is but another dispensation of grace --- changing Eph2:8 to: "For by grace through grace have you been saved".

The PROCESS of salvation, is GOD'S GRACE --- Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross, sufficient and complete; but working through our own faith. If this dynamic persists beyond our BECOMING saved, then God KEEPS us, through our faith. This in no way denies His sovereignty or omnipotence; He is certainly capable of choosing such a paradigm.

This is the harmony I find between Jude24, and Jude21 --- "God is ABLE to keep us from stumbling" --- but our PART in that is to "keep ourselves in His love, BUILDING OURSELVES UP IN FAITH!!!"

To assert that "SAVED-MAN no longer has CONSCIOUS WILL, because he is TOO RENEWED" converges "Eternal Security" and "Calvinism" --- both to a goal that denies man's own responsibility. And it contradicts reality. A reality which can be undeniably exposed with one simple question: "do Christians, SIN?"

Obviously we DO sin. So we are NOT changed beyond our own will, are we? If we were COMPLETE and TOTAL NEW CREATIONS, we would be by definition, SINLESS.

Thus --- even our "renewal", our "new-creation", operates THROUGH OUR FAITH.

That faith CAN be deceived is evinced in MANY verses, of which I have quoted above. But look at 1Tim4:1 for an example. WE CAN BE DECEIVED AWAY FROM FAITH. So also says Hebrews 3, 2Peter, James. All of them...
Now in light of this, to deny the Holy Ghost power to keep us then aren't we endowing ourselves with more power than He?Look at how the Holy Spirit works with us:
HS is RESISTIBLE (Acts 7:51)
HS is INSULTABLE (Heb10:29)
HS is GRIEVEABLE (Eph4:30)

So the Holy Spirit does work through the same paradigm, THROUGH OUR FAITH. This moves all of the "warnings' verses away from "hyperbole", into "real and sincere warnings". And it harmonizes perfectly with those passages speaking of "falling-from-salvation". In the previous post I showed that there are only THREE or FOUR POSSIBLE understandings of passages like 2Pet2:20-22 and Gal5:1-7 to KEEP "osas"; and how each of those understandings is not credible. If we can see that "God's grace operates THROUGH our faith", then we see that "salvation cannot be REVOKED BY GOD ("repented", Rom11:29), He cannot be unfaithful to US, no ONE can snatch US from His hand, but there is no verse that asserts WE cannot DISBELIEVE and WALK AWAY.

Salvation is by grace; through faith. It is a free gift, nothing of us, all of Him; but salvation is RECEIVED by us. Jn1:12 says "receive-Jesus, believe-in-His-name, become adopted children". Jn1:13 says "we are born again not of ourselves but of God" --- we receive the gift but contribute nothing TO that salvation. THEN --- we are charged to: "As you have RECEIVED CHrist, so walk IN Him." Col2:6

God's grace, our faith. "Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you. Anyone who does NOT abide is cast off as a branch, ...and is thrown into the fire." Jn15:6 "Watch yourselves against the deceivers; whoever goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD; but he who abides, has the Father, and the Son." 2Jn1:7-9

Salvation is by grace, by God's power; operating through our faith.

Do you think I have the Scriptures wrong, Palatika, or any other reader?

:)

Palatka44

18th November 2003, 11:37 PM

Do you think I have the Scriptures wrong, Palatika, or any other reader?
Ahem........ Palatka is not spelled with an i. In many cases Palatkan's may view that as an insult. (Just kidding) ;)

No you do not have the scriptures wrong. We are viewing them at different angles. While you insist that one can walk away from faith and stay away I am convenced that while one can fall, Our Lord will not let us continue to fall. I believe fully on Him for my safety. It saddens me that when one has surrendered to Him they think that they can simply walk away. I KNOW I CAN'T AND I KNOW I WILL NOT!! No one can convience me otherwise so why do you try? Now please let me have that assurance and know that while we may never meet here we will meet there where our Lord will reveal everything to us. Unless of course you should walk away.:sorry:

Palatka44

18th November 2003, 11:44 PM

Im locked in and do not want out. Sorry, I had to post something to get over that 66- blessing number. It bothered me. :eek:

Palatka44

18th November 2003, 11:54 PM

Something just occured to me. If we can simply walk away why did Jesus presist in getting Peter to confess that he loved Him? He did not let up until Peter obeyed the command to feed his sheep. I really don't believe that Christ would have left Earth until Peter repented. Nor would He have let Peter die before he repented.

Ben johnson

19th November 2003, 01:03 AM

Ahem........ Palatka is not spelled with an i. In many cases Palatkan's may view that as an insult. Yipe! :o I am SO sorry! :P
While you insist that one can walk away from faith and stay away I am convinced that while one can fall, Our Lord will not let us continue to fall.Certainly God will call us back, and "seek us as the shepherd seeks the lost sheep"...
I believe fully on Him for my safety.BECAUSE of your belief, then we really do not disagree at all; I have the SAME belief... :D
It saddens me that when one has surrendered to Him they think that they can simply walk away. I KNOW I CAN'T AND I KNOW I WILL NOT!! There's the rub --- "SURRENDERED". Where is the Scripture that says "faith canot fail"? Think about Hymenaeus and Alexander, who "suffered SHIPWRECK in regards to their faith"... 1Tim1:19-20
I KNOW I CAN'T AND I KNOW I WILL NOT!! No one can convince me otherwise so why do you try? Now please let me have that assurance and know that while we may never meet here we will meet there where our Lord will reveal everything to us. Unless of course you should walk away.It's just a question of "contending for the truth", Palatka. As long as a "OSAS" person and a "OSNAS" person agree on "faith/belief being the essence of salvation", then there is not enough disagreement to mention. The problem (imho) seems when one leans entirely on GOD to keep up his faith/belief, and doesn't need to worry about "endurance" or "perseverance" or "walking in Christ or in the Spirit".
. If we can simply walk away why did Jesus presist in getting Peter to confess that he loved Him? In Luke 22:32 Jesus sincerely and ernestly for Peter's faith (salvation).

Nowww, it's my understanding that what happened in Jn21:15-17, was that Jesus was trying to teach Peter about LOVE:
(Jesus) "Simon, do you AGAPE Me?" (complete, unconditional love)
(Peter) "Lord, you KNOW I PHILEOS you" (brotherly love)
A second time Jesus asked, "Simon, do you AGAPE Me?""
Peter answered, "Yes Lord, You know I PHILEOS You."
A third time Jesus asked, "Simon son of John, do you PHILEOS Me?"
Peter was grieved because Jesus asked a third time; and said, "Lord, You know I phileos You."

So --- when Peter could not muster the courage to profess COMPLETE AGAPE-LOVE, the third time Jesus asked it was with a sigh. Peter was gireved not so much at Jesus for asking 3 times, but at himself for not "agape-ing Jesus".

BTW, Paul purposed to turn Hymenaeus, Alexander and Philetus, over to the devil hoping that they could be taught not to blaspheme.

MAC

19th November 2003, 02:12 AM

Hello, Fijian and Aimee! Welcome to the boards! :D

What do you all make of 1Tim4:1: "The Spirit explicitly tells me that in the later days some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons". Were they never-really-saved (which is to ask, how can one FALL FROM FAITH that one has never HAD?)?

How does that verse fit with "THEY CAN NEVER FALL"?

(And read the entire chapter in context; especially the last verse, that says "pay close attention to yourself and your teaching, persevere; as you DO you will SAVE YOURSELF and all who hear you" --- this verse is inseparable from verse 1; can we deny that "paying attention and persevering" counters "falling away from the faith"?)

I was thinking about this a little and when reading I notice that it is coming straight from the Spirit of God that at the latter days this would take place. (But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith). I know and understand that once God zeal the heart of man with His Spirit cannot fall away but stumble in many areas of our lives because we still have this body that seeketh after sin. This is also telling me what we already know in the word of God that man is sinful in all his ways, for if they where of God they would not have departed. Remember that God indicates to us in 1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

So yes; these men been departed where never of the Faith (Christ)
Also remember that it is of the goodness of God to lead or to take you to repentance and that only by the Holy Spirit that does that work in you.
My view at this point.

MAC

19th November 2003, 02:43 AM

Jer 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim mourning to himself, saying, You have chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bull not broken in; turn me, and I shall be turned. For You are Jehovah my God.

Jer 31:19 Surely after I was turned, I repented; and after I was taught, I struck on my thigh. I was ashamed, yea, I even blushed, because I bore the disgrace of my youth.

Ben johnson

19th November 2003, 05:30 AM

Hi, Mac! Good to "see" you again! :)
I know and understand that once God zeal (seals?) the heart of man with His Spirit cannot fall away Can you find this idea in Scripture?
we already know in the word of God that man is sinful in all his ways... if they were of God they would not have departedThis is a reference to 1Jn2:19. It speaks of "CERTAIN ANTICHRISTS" --- specific individuals. Contrast this with 2Jn1:7-9, which warns us to "beware about deceivers/antichrists, watch yourselves that you do not lose what you've accomplished; anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son." Some try to contend that there is a SUBJECT CHANGE between vs8 and vs9; but I don't see it...

I don't think 1Jn2:19 asserts that "EVERYONE who goes from us was NEVER WITH US"; only THOSE antichrists at that time...
Remember that God indicates to us in 1 Corinthians 10:13 This mirrors Jude 24; He is ABLE... But does God "keep us", without our own faith/belief?
So yes; these men been departed where never of the Faith (Christ)
Did you read my "question on 2Pet2:20-22 & Gal1:5-7"? Here are two passages that speak of "falling-from-salvation". Those who are "osas" usually take one of four positions:
1. These were never REALLY SAVED; only APPEARED saved.
2. They didn't really FALL from salvation, only STUBMLED but REMAINED.
3. It's only HYPERBOLE, empty fatherly "bugbear" intended to "keep us straight"; but it can't REALLY happen.
4. There is a DEVICE that allows us to REJECT the whole letters of Peter and Galatians; and James and Hebrews (and others). Either they were written for a different DISPENSATION than our CURRENT one, or they were written for JEWS ONLY and not for us.

I'm not aware of a 5th, but would like to hear if there was one. In all 5, or 6 times I've asked this question in the last week, I have shown with Scripture how each number cannot stand. No "osas" person has answered the question.

I'll be happy to post the reasons (that the four do not stand, here, before anyone replies, if anyone wishes; it is not my desire to "ambush" anyone nor cut-them-down after they have commented.

If you (meaning "you-in-general") believe in OSAS, there MUST be some kind of an understanding to answer these passages; all I'm doing is CHALLENGING that understanding...

MattMMMan17

19th November 2003, 06:20 AM

Note: I haven't read all of the preceeding threads, the following is just my response to the poll.

From a Catholic perspective:

The two words, "salvation" and "being saved" in the New Testament are the words, soterion, a noun (denoting deliverance, preservation, salvation), and, sozo, a verb (denoting to save).

Both words have a number of meanings, determined by the varying contexts in which the words are used.

In a first and basic sense, the word "salvation" virtually stands for Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation, we are saved. Lk 2:28,30-31 He (Simeon) took him into his arms and blessed God, saying: ... for my eyes have seen your salvation, which you prepared in sight of all the peoples, Lk 19:9-10 And Jesus said to him (Zacchaeus), "Today salvation has come to this house ..." Jn 4:21-22 Jesus said to her (the Samaritan woman), "... because salvation is from the Jews." Acts 4:11-12 He (Jesus) is "the stone rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone." There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.

In a second sense, the words, "salvation" and "being saved," are also used of the present experience, God's power to deliver from the bondage of sin. 1 Cor 15:2 Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. Heb 7:25 Therefore, he (Jesus) is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them. Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 1 Pet 1:8-9 Although you have not seen him you love him; even though you do not see him now yet believe in him, you rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy, as you attain the goal of (your) faith, the salvation of your souls. 2 Tim 3:15 ... and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?

In a third sense, "salvation" and "being saved" are also used for the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ. This salvation is the object of the confident hope of the saints. Rom 5:9 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. Rom 13:11 And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed; 1 Thess 5:8-9 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation. For God did not destine us for wrath, but to gain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

The Catholic Christian answers your question in three stages or levels corresponding to the three meanings the words "saved" and "salvation" have in the Bible.

Catholic Christians can respond that they have been saved. This acknowledges the first meaning of "saved" and "salvation" in scripture--Jesus Christ, Savior, by whose act of salvation we are objectively saved--He died, rose from the dead, saved them from sin. 2 Cor 5:17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creation

Catholic Christians can also respond that they are being saved. This acknowledges the second meaning "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the present experience, God's power delivering constantly from the bondage of sin. 1 Cor 15:2 Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Catholic Christians also respond that they will be saved, that they have hope and confidence that God will give them the grace of perseverance; that they will respond to it; and accept his gift of salvation until their death. This acknowledges the third meaning the words "saved" and "salvation" have in scripture--the future deliverance of believers at the Second Coming of Christ. Rom 5:9 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath

That's just background for the Catholic view of salvation. However, for the purpose of this thread, I will say that in the view of the Church, only God knows whether or not you are in a state of sanctifying grace(die while you're in it, and you're heaven-bound, die while you're out of it, and it gets much warmer). Basically, good works in sanctifying grace are neccessary for salvation.

Romans 11:22-24 is pretty clear. You can remain in, and step out, but be grafted back in again.

MAC

19th November 2003, 06:32 AM

Maybe number 5 is;

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard its spots? Then you also may do good, who are accustomed to doing evil.

And number 6;

2Pe 2:13 being about to receive the wages of unrighteousness, deeming indulgence as pleasure in the daytime, and reveling in spots and blemishes, feasting along with you in their deceits,

2Pe 2:14 having eyes full of adultery and never ceasing from sin, alluring unstable souls, having a heart exercised with covetousness. They are cursed children

2Pe 2:15 who have forsaken the right way and have gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness,

MAC

19th November 2003, 06:43 AM

[QUOTE=Ben johnson]Hi, Mac! Good to "see" you again! :)
Can you find this idea in Scripture?[QUOTE]

Jer 32:40 And I will cut an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good. But I will put My fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me.

Psa 37:28 For Jehovah loves judgment and does not forsake His saints; they are kept forever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

(Psa 66:9) who holds our soul in life, and does not allow our feet to slide.

(Psa 97:10) You who love Jehovah, hate evil; He keeps the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked.

(Psa 145:20) Jehovah watches over all those who love Him; but all the wicked He will destroy.

(Heb 13:5)Let your way of life be without the love of money, and be content with such things as you have, for He has said, "Not at all will I leave you, not at all will I forsake you, never!"

(Psa 94:14) For Jehovah will not cast off His people, nor will He forsake His inheritance.

Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 who is the earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption.

Not to grieve is the implication here, does not refers to loose your (seal).

My son some times grieves me with his actions but will not loose my love and care for him...

MAC

19th November 2003, 06:50 AM

Hi Ben, how is it going in your part of the world..

The Lord is molding me with a rod in this side...

bluewolf

19th November 2003, 11:24 AM

Okay, I have read the replys and I did go to the link given.

There are arguments for both sides and this is so confusing, because both seem to be correct.

I really want to understand this. I know that even though I am saved and Jesus is the Lord of my life, that I sin.
This is one of those 'doctrines' that is often debated. If you visit different denominations, or talk to different opinions of Christians, you will hear both sides.

I know what I believe based on what I have studied in the word. Often when I have studied these 'controversial' doctines, I started with verses given by both sides, but diving deeper into the Bible and finding more references, and prayer for answers was crucial.

Many people quoting these verses, only quote the ones that endorse their particular opinion on that doctrine. Reading verses of both sides is only a start. The whole word, entered into with prayer and no preconceptions is the only way you can get to a belief that resonates with you as truth.

Cannot give a pat answer. Deep study is the only way. There is not a short-cut and only God, not the opinions of others can give you the peace of mind you seek.

Laura

Vxer1000

19th November 2003, 07:42 PM

Romans 8
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing can seperate us from God except ourselves. Notice you don't see in this scripture the word "ourselves".

A born again Christian has the option of walking away from God and thus going to Hell(Lake of Fire). God will not stop you because He has made it your choice, otherwise we would be robots. It would also allow us to go out and sin(and any arguement against this is nonsense) to our little heart's content and make a mockery of God. Common sense, the Holy Ghost, and the bible all tell me that God will not let you mock Him without paying a dear price:

Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Palatka44

19th November 2003, 07:58 PM

Hi Ben, how is it going in your part of the world..

The Lord is molding me with a rod in this side...
Oh man that rod sure is comforting.:clap:

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Assurance is all over the place.^_^

pentecostal girl

20th November 2003, 12:29 AM

I know I'm probaly a little late on this issue, but I feel very strongly about it. I firmly believe that you can lose your salvation. I mean don't get me wrong, I believe that God will never leave you because it says it in the bible, but it doesn't mean that YOU can't stray away form him. In Hebrews 6:6 it says "If they fall away, to renew the."m again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame."(NKJV) God wants to live in a heart that is pure, not one that is filled with sin. He wants to strive to be more like him,and to do that we have to keep our eyes on Jesus. In 2 Corthinians 5:17 it says "Therfore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; behold all things have passed away; behold all thigs have become new." If we truly have Jesus Christ in hearts we shouldn't go back to the old things we used to do; before we became christians. I know we all mess up every once in a while; no one is perfect. But to say that we can walk a life filled with sin and never ask God to forgive us of those of those sins confuses me very much. If you have anyone questions fill free to post them. I try to answer them the best I can! God Bless

Ben johnson

20th November 2003, 01:28 AM

Hi,Matt! An excellent post! I am greatly pleased to hear you say "we HAVE BEEN saved"; many Catholics with whom I have conversed, have said "you can never know you're saved, until you DIE." This contradicts passages such as 1Jn5:11-13...

But I would strongly disagree with you on this:
That's just background for the Catholic view of salvation. However, for the purpose of this thread, I will say that in the view of the Church, only God knows whether or not you are in a state of sanctifying grace(die while you're in it, and you're heaven-bound, die while you're out of it, and it gets much warmer). Basically, good works in sanctifying grace are neccessary for salvation. Paul is very clear in Eph2:8, "...saved, NOT as a result of works lest anyone boast." I hope we can agree that "works CONSEQUENT from salvation, not CAUSE it." This reflects with all of Scripture, especially Jesus' words in Matt7: "No good tree can produce bad fruit(works), no bad tree can produce good."

The essence of salvation, is CHRIST-IN-US. We are INDWELT by the real person of the Holy Spirit (the word "immersed" in Matt3:11 means "indwelt", doesn't mean "water"); likewise, in Rom6 we are "immersed/indwelt/united/buried/crucified with Jesus; both in His DEATH, and in His resurrection. Salvation is FELLOWSHIP (1Jn1:3,6).

Often Philip2:12 is quoted, but not verse 13: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good pleasure." There it is --- through fellowship, through Jesus IN US, it is HIM who does good works THROUGH us; thus we are not saved by good works, for they are not OUR WORKS; they belong to Him who indwells us and who DOES THEM THROUGH US.

So good works are not necessary for salvation; but good works necessarily FOLLOW if the person is REALLY SAVED...

:)

Ben johnson

20th November 2003, 01:38 AM

And number 6;Those three verses you quote, and verse 2:19 ("slaves of corruption") show that the FALSE prophets and FALSE teachers could NEVER have even APPEARED to have "escaped the defilements". Thus, the FALSE, seek to entice the "ONTOS-APOPHEUGO-TRULY-ESCAPED" (vs 2:18) The "escapees" are the THIRD group in the passage...

Ben johnson

20th November 2003, 01:42 AM

Hi Ben, how is it going in your part of the world..

The Lord is molding me with a rod in this side...Fine so far; seeking a "career-change"...

But so far I am "clothed, warmed and fed"; not everyone on Earth can say that...

:)

BTW, I'm told God's ROD, is to GUIDE; not to smite. (I imagine how many KIDS keep reminding their PARENTSof this...)
;)

Ben johnson

20th November 2003, 01:48 AM

Many people quoting these verses, only quote the ones that endorse their particular opinion on that doctrine. Reading verses of both sides is only a start. The whole word, entered into with prayer and no preconceptions is the only way you can get to a belief that resonates with you as truth.This is why in the book I'm writing, I strive to present EVERY LAST VERSE that each OSAS contender has EVER PRESENTED to me --- and I present a view of how they can be accomodated to "OSNAS"; then I present many verses of "osnas", that I do not believe can accomodate "osas"....
Oh man that rod sure is comforting.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Assurance is all over the place. "And we shall dwell in the House of the Lord, FOREVER!"

Can you even BEGIN to concieve of "forever"??? Boggles the mind...

;)

Ben johnson

20th November 2003, 01:50 AM

Very good post, Pentecostal Girl! Welcome to the boards!

:D

Miles Peterson

21st November 2003, 03:00 PM

This has always made me wonder. If you lose your salvation when you backslide, wouldnt you have to get re-saved?
Good point!

godsmessenger

24th November 2003, 12:08 AM

God does not give us salvation and then say do whatever you want, but as long as you keep your faith in God, I beleive you will be saved.

God bless

ILoveEric

24th November 2003, 10:52 AM

I believe that once somebody is saved they can never lose their salvation.

Nikki

Vxer1000

24th November 2003, 12:06 PM

I believe that once somebody is saved they can never lose their salvation.

Nikki
If that was true you could go sin to your heart's content and still be saved. That would certainly be sending a mixed message to anyone that is lost and seeking God, wouldn't you think? The bible says God is not the author of confusion.

Ben johnson

24th November 2003, 04:12 PM

Welcome to the boards, GM & Nikki! :D
If that was true you could go sin to your heart's content and still be savedThey say that "THE SAVED" will be CHANGED and will not WANT to "sin to their heart's contend" (because they have NEW HEARTS).

Here is the problem --- is it God's will for us to sin? No. Is it God's will for us NOT to sin? Yes. Are we perfect and sin-free, while we live? NO. Thus --- God's WILL is RESISTIBLE.

If we have the ABILITY to sin, then we have WILL. The choice to sin is NO DIFFERENT from the choice to REPENT, AFTER sinning. If I sin, I confess my sin and strive not to do it again (repent), and I am forgiven. If I do NOT repent, I AM NOT FORGIVEN.

Verse after verse after verse warns us to "walk in Him and not in sin". Clearly a choice...

Sunbeam

24th November 2003, 07:12 PM

They say that "THE SAVED" will be CHANGED and will not WANT to "sin to their heart's contend" (because they have NEW HEARTS).

Here is the problem --- is it God's will for us to sin? No. Is it God's will for us NOT to sin? Yes. Are we perfect and sin-free, while we live? NO. Thus --- God's WILL is RESISTIBLE.

If we have the ABILITY to sin, then we have WILL. The choice to sin is NO DIFFERENT from the choice to REPENT, AFTER sinning. If I sin, I confess my sin and strive not to do it again (repent), and I am forgiven. If I do NOT repent, I AM NOT FORGIVEN.

Verse after verse after verse warns us to "walk in Him and not in sin". Clearly a choice...
Good post, as usual, Ben.

Lady Éowyn

24th November 2003, 07:58 PM

Didn't anyone took any notice of what I wanted to share with you all??? Sob, sob, sob...

I wanted to all let you know that there is a book you can read, by David Pawson called Once saved always save?

It will help you understand this topic alot more better. That's if your finding trouble understanding it in the first place.

Was is helpful?

God bless
Lady Éowyn

Ben johnson

24th November 2003, 08:59 PM

:wave: @ Sunbeam

Lady, did you post before? And I missed it? What is Dave Pawson's position? (Can you say "Pawson's position" five times rapidly?)

Robert Shank has an excellent book on the subject, "Elect In The Son"; sequel to "Life in the Son", I'm told is equally as good.

I think there needs to be a more comprehensive text, written from the perspective of presenting ALL VERSES that EACH side uses, with a critical examination of each verse. If the verses of one side can accomodate the verses used by the other, but the other cannot accomodate the one, it seems to me to leng great credibility to the one...

Dr Kimble

24th November 2003, 09:48 PM

If you are saved then it is most likely that you asked Jesus into your heart and you will not "go bad" Yes people do slip up, but that is what forgiveness is for. If you have been saved why would you give up the immence joy that comes along with it. So I believe that those who are saved will stay that way because it is soooo much better to have the joy of God in your heart than not to.

Ben johnson

24th November 2003, 10:45 PM

If you are saved then it is most likely that you asked Jesus into your heart MOST LIKELY???

Do you know another way?
;)

Palatka44

24th November 2003, 10:53 PM

As I have read each post and given my thoughts here as well, there are two points that are dividing us.
First one;
The OSNAS seem not able to understand the OSAS position on assuraty. Whereas the OSAS can not understand that OSNAS will so willingly interject that one can of their own free will walk away from the faith.
I understand the verses that exort us to "be holy as he is holy" and to walk after the things of the Spirit and not after the things of the flesh. Ben has done an exsaustive study on all these related verses. Each verse challenges us to serve Christ with all our hearts, mind and body.
Even so after all these posts it is still evident that sin is ecer present with us.
Romans 7:21
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
We can not escape this fact no matter how hard we may try. Even if we could do so to die is sin.
1 Corinthians 15:56,57
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Lest we should just give up, because everyone sins and most surely everyone dies, Paul gives us assurance in verse 57 by stating that it is God that hands us the victory through His Holy Son, Jesus our Lord and Christ. To trust ourselves for this victory is foolishness for we do not have strenght to attain it. Christ has already attained it and it is in Him we trust that He will not allow us to falter. He will present us blameless.
1 Corinthians 1:6-9
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Note that Paul now has said that we are now called unto the fellowship of His Son. He did not say with but "of". We are now sons and heirs, in the fellowship of Christ our Lord.
Romans 8 14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Now that we have established that we are now children, heirs, son of God through Christ, we are now subject to chastisement.
Hebrews 12:9-13
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
The father that does not discipline his child has done wrong by it. He has neglected his duty as a father. When I was a child in my father's house and I had played with matches and denied it, did my father say it's ok I believe you (knowing that I lied) and walk away and not so much as to even remove the match box from my clutched hand? No, he removed the matches and tanned my little hinney. He knew the dangers of a child with fire. Do you think I wanted to give up those matches? Not on your life, I liked to watch the fire devour everything. Now thanks to his intervention I am not a fire bug in my adult life. He perfected in me a respect for the proper use of fire through discipline.
How much more of a father is God? Or is He less of one? No, He will never let a child continue in sin, even though that child clutches at that sin He will rend it from it's life and render proper discipline. The child has no will it only has the will of the father for the father gives direction for the child's perfection.
God has laid down guidelines where by we must obey.
My dad had rules by which his son should obey.

Romans 6:16-18
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Notice here the use of servant. The servant is a bound individual that is subject to a master to do the will of his master. The servant has no will of his own but must obey the masters will. If you are in this Christian life for your own personal reasons without total surrender of your will to him, then it is totaly within reason that the unsubmitted heart will walk away.

Dr Kimble

25th November 2003, 12:14 AM

MOST LIKELY???

Do you know another way?

No, no I don't. Thanks for calling me on that! ;) I must have slipped with my words, it should say "If you are saved THEN you asked Jesus into your heart."
I am too passive with my word choices :blush:

MAC

25th November 2003, 03:07 AM

I have learn through the word of God that our will does not work on his own but it is incline to the heart and if the heart of men is wicked what good thing can come out of it to be able to see the Light and be clean? Phil 2:13

What power could change the heart, which will change the will to see and become whole in righteousness?

Rom 9:16 – 3:11 – Psa 115:1

Eternal_Spirit

25th November 2003, 06:52 AM

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned but I did not have time to read 58 pages of notes! ;)

What do you think God will do to the people who were once saved but disobeyed Him the rest of their life? Do you think they automatically get to Heaven? :confused:

I think there are many people in for a rude awakening when they take their last breath here on Earth. Remember, Jesus wants a "relationship" with us. The Father wants us to know and obey His Son.

Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So you see, this is just one reference I found to make my point. You can be saved but if you continue to disobey, you lose that relationship with the Son and your ticket to Heaven might not be that guarantee you thought it was my friend.

Sure, people "slip" and sin because we are not perfect. But if turn your back on Jesus and live your own life upon your own will, you can lose your salvation in my opinion. Why would God let a soul into Heaven when that soul disobeyed all their lives? He rewards us when we obey and live a Godly life. He knows the difference in our hearts.

Take Care... and be Good! Or else... ;)