Do you believe that once you are saved, you are always saved? [Archive] - Page 2

admtaylor

11th August 2003, 02:08 AM

Who do you think James is talking to in 1:14-16?

Let's put the context down here. As you can see he is speaking generally about the state of temptation and where it comes from. And do you believe that there is need to only repent of sin once, when saved? Repenting of sin is expected throughout our life. So that we can keep the lines of communication between ourselves and God from being muddled. But, just because we sin doesn't mean we've been cast out. How could a man even keep an acurate count of the sins he does in his life? Does this mean salvation is left up to chance in the end. If you happened to repent of the correct sins before you died then you're free to go. Or is there a threshold? You know a certain severity of sin, or maybe 10 sins ok.....11 you need to repent or you'll be headed for Hell. See where this doesn't make sense. Salvation is a gift. That if we believe on Christ and accept it cannot be taken away. Do you say that while walking with Christ you commit no sin? If you concede that you do and hold to the belief that you can lose salvation than that only relegates the gift of God to a goal to be obtained by doing the proper things. Or to put it another way.....works.

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "(29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=james+1&version=NASB#crossref_151492122_29)) I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then (30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=james+1&version=NASB#crossref_151492122_30)) when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when (31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=james+1&version=NASB#crossref_151492122_31)) sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
16 (32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=james+1&version=NASB#crossref_151492122_32)) Do not be deceived, (33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=james+1&version=NASB#crossref_151492122_33)) my beloved brethren.
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is (34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=james+1&version=NASB#crossref_151492122_34)) from above, coming down from (35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=james+1&version=NASB#crossref_151492122_35)) the Father of lights, (36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=james+1&version=NASB#crossref_151492122_36)) with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

preacherintraining

12th August 2003, 09:30 AM

But, just because we sin doesn't mean we've been cast out. How could a man even keep an acurate count of the sins he does in his life? Does this mean salvation is left up to chance in the end. If you happened to repent of the correct sins before you died then you're free to go. Or is there a threshold? You know a certain severity of sin, or maybe 10 sins ok.....11 you need to repent or you'll be headed for Hell. See where this doesn't make sense. Salvation is a gift. That if we believe on Christ and accept it cannot be taken away. Do you say that while walking with Christ you commit no sin? If you concede that you do and hold to the belief that you can lose salvation than that only relegates the gift of God to a goal to be obtained by doing the proper things. Or to put it another way.....works.

"And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer" (Matthew 18:15-17).

We can only be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, then we are to live according to the Spirit not according to the flesh. The Bible tells us, REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU-Acts 2:38. God imputes to us His righteousness by Jesus. Our sins are washed away by His blood shed on Calvary. Throughout the Scriptures, God reveals what His will for us is. We are warned, NOT EVERYONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN-Mt 7:21. Note: do THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS HEAVEN.

Satan will do everything possible to cause you not to do the will of God. He will do this through persecutions, which may cause you to be embarrassed or ashamed. Satan also uses cares of this world, deceitfulness of riches, pleasures of this world, and the lusts of other things, to keep you from doing God’s will. Satan will try to throw you into confusion through false teachings and traditions of men. He will do this through false teachers (the blind), through people, friends, relatives, your loved ones, and even literature. Satan uses, THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH, THE LUST OF THE EYES, AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE to draw you away-1 Jn 2:16. He uses FIERY DARTS-(your thoughts, flesh, and feelings)-Eph 6:16. You may be IN HEAVINESS THROUGH MANIFOLD TEMPTATIONS-1 Pe 1:6. It is God’s will, THAT THE TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH...THOUGH IT BE TRIED WITH FIRE, MIGHT BE FOUND UNTO PRAISE-1 Pe 1:7. Therefore, beloved, THINK IT NOT STRANGE, CONCERNING THE FIERY TRIAL WHICH IS TO TRY YOU, AS THOUGH SOME STRANGE THING HAPPENED UNTO YOU-1 Pe 4:2.

As we search the Scriptures, we see many writers of the Old Testament warned the people not to stray, not to fall, but to continue in God’s will. Again, Jesus warned the people (as did nearly every writer of the New Testament), not to return to their old ways once they were saved. A large amount of Paul’s writings, concentrate on warning those who had been set free, who had found liberty through Christ Jesus, to stand firm. They were warned not to cast away their faith and confidence. He encouraged them to remain steadfast in the Word, in their faith, and in God’s will. But the sad fact is, few do stand fast. For MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN-Mt 22:14. Because STRAIGHT IS THE GATE, AND NARROW IS THE WAY, WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT-Mt 7:14. Many believe on Jesus Christ, but only a few are willing to do God’s will, obey the Scriptures, and depart from all willful sin.

It is written, BUT HE THAT RECEIVED THE SEED INTO STONY PLACES, THE SAME IS HE THAT HEARETH THE WORD, AND ANON WITH JOY RECEIVETH IT-Mt 13:20. RECEIVE IT WITH GLADNESS-Mk 4:16. RECEIVETH THE WORD WITH JOY-Lk 8:13. They are saved, born-again, renewed. So what happens to them? They, FOR A WHILE BELIEVE-Lk 8:13; ENDURE BUT FOR A TIME-Mk 4:17; DURETH (endure) FOR A WHILE-Mt 13:21. But then, WHEN TRIBULATION OR PERSECUTION ARISETH BECAUSE OF THE WORD-Mt 13:21; WHEN AFFLICTION OR PERSECUTION ARISETH FOR THE WORD’S SAKE-Mk 4:17; IN TIME OF TEMPTATION-Lk 8:13; BY AND BY (they become) OFFENDED-Mt 13:21. They FALL AWAY-Lk 8:13.

God’s Word shows us another group which go forth. Fruit appears to be starting to grow; but Satan comes to choke them. It is written, AND THAT WHICH FELL AMONG THORNS ARE THEY, WHICH, WHEN THEY HAVE HEARD, (GO FORTH)-Lk 8:14. HE...RECEIVED SEED...HEARETH THE WORD (now, Satan stops them by using)…THE CARE OF THIS WORLD, AND THE DECEITFULNESS OF RICHES-Mt 13:22; THE LUSTS OF OTHER THINGS-Mk 4:19; AND PLEASURES OF THIS LIFE-Lk 8:14; ENTERING IN, CHOKE THE WORD-Mk 4:19; AND BRING NO FRUIT TO PERFECTION (this seems to indicate fruit begins to grow, but never ripens)-Lk 8:14. IT BECOMETH UNFRUITFUL-Mk 4:19; HE BECOMETH UNFRUITFUL-Mt 13:22.

THE SALT (loses) HIS SALTNESS-Mk 9:50. They do not STAND FAST-Gal 5:1. They do not CONTINUE IN THE FAITH-Col 1:23. They do not retain THE STEADFASTNESS OF (their) FAITH IN CHRIST-Col 2:5. Paul said, FOR NOW WE LIVE, IF YE STAND FAST IN THE LORD-1 Thes 3:8. They do not CONTINUE IN THE GRACE OF GOD-Acts 13:43. They do not HOLD…their CONFIDENCE-Heb 3:14. They do not LET (the Word) ABIDE IN THEM…and REMAIN IN (them). They do not CONTINUE IN THE SON-1 Jn 2:24. These once born-again people, become unfruitful. They do not ENDURE UNTO THE END-Mt 24:13. They are TREES WHOSE FRUIT WITHERETH-Jude 12.

These people are CALLED, BUT…(not) CHOSEN-Mt 22:14. They, TURNED BACK FROM HIM-Job 34:27. Their FAITH failed-Lk 22:32. They did not CONTINUE IN MY WORD-Jn 8:31. They have turned FROM THE FAITH-Acts 13:8. Their hearts have become DARKENED-Ro 11:21. They shall BE CUT OFF-Ro 11:22. They are a CASTAWAY-1 Cor 9:27. They did not KEEP IN MEMORY the Word. They HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN-1 Cor 15:2. They RECEIVED…THE GRACE OF GOD IN VAIN-2 Cor 6:1. They are REMOVED FROM HIM-Gal 1:6. They HAVE KNOWN GOD…but have turned AGAIN TO BE IN BONDAGE-Gal 4:9. They are FALLEN FROM GRACE-Gal 5:4. BY SOME MEANS THE TEMPTER…TEMPTED them, and OUR LABOUR was IN VAIN-1 Thes 3:5. The SPIRIT was quenched-1 Thes 5:19. They departed FROM THE FAITH-1 Tim 4:1. They now have DAMNATION BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH-1 Tim 5:12. They have ERRED FROM THE FAITH-1 Tim 6:10. They departed FROM THE LIVING GOD-Heb 3:12. They HAVE DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE-Heb 10:29. They have drawn BACK…and God’s SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN them-Heb 10:38,39. They WERE CLEANED ESCAPED FROM THEM WHO LIVE IN ERROR, but they became ENTANGLED AGAIN-2 Pe 2:18, 20. They were LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED-2 Pe 3:17. THOU ART FALLEN-Rev 2:5. Their name is taken away OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE-Rev 22:19. They are BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF THE LIVING-Ps 69:28. For it had BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT…BUT IT IS HAPPENED UNTO THEM ACCORDING TO THE TRUE PROVERB, THE DOG IS TURNED TO HIS OWN VOMIT AGAIN; AND THE SOW THAT WAS WASHED TO HER WALLOWING IN THE MIRE-2 Pe 2:21,22.

Again, sorry so long, just thought that this would be a good way to show that salvation can be lost. The middle to end part of this was borrowed from:

http://www.parentalguide.com/Documents/Doctrines/Salvation_can_it_be_lost_part2.htm

preacherintraining

12th August 2003, 05:02 PM

Hmm, no one can argue with this one i guess.

admtaylor

12th August 2003, 10:19 PM

Hmm, no one can argue with this one i guess.

I am not hear to argue. To discuss with other believers. If I'm to give an open minded look at your post I'm going to need some time. I will respond.

Ben johnson

13th August 2003, 02:42 AM

P.I.T, we strive for excellence in our presentation and diction; you have achieved it. A VERY well done post! I have long sought to convey that "all of the WARNINGS are penned as REAL DANGER"; that the examples of "FALLING" are truly "FALLING". But so entrenched are many in the "OSAS" paradigm, that no amount of Scripture will persuade them. The hardest group to convince, are the "PREDESTINED-ELECTION"; the "Calvinists", "Limited-atonement-Jesus-died-not-for-ALL-but-for-only-the-PRE-CHOSEN!" Some of them possess SEMINARY DOCTORATE DEGREES! It is often frustrating showing verse after verse after verse, dozens and dozens of 'em, only to have the audience say,"That's not REALLY what they MEANT", or "That letter was for JEWS back THEN but not for US TODAY", or "there is a SUBJECT CHANGE between the two VERSES it DOES NOT MEAN you can become UNSAVED". Though "Carnal Christianity" is the easiest OSAS-facet to counter Scripturally, most OSAS proponents NEVERTHELESS cling to the idea that "there IS a BACKSLIDDEN-but-still-SAVED CONDITION!" Flying in the face of what Jesus said, and Paul, and John, and all of them.

But rather than "SLAMMING THE TRUTH in their faces", I seek only to purvey the essence of salvation; it is communion with Him-who-made-us. If two of us, let's say ME-who-believes-OSNAS, and ANOTHER-who-believes-OSAS, can agree on the ESSENCE of salvation, the "FELLOWSHIP" and "WALKING-IN-THE-SPIRIT", the "feet always running towards righteousness" --- then the entire issue turns to smoke and blows away, doesn't it? But the issue is critical to me in the cases of those who think that ACTION is NOT required in "salvation/fellowship-with-God"!

Between two TRULY-SAVED believers, OSAS can very much become "NON-ISSUE"; and we can disagree but fellowship in perfect (saved) love and harmony. It is only in discussing one who thinks "BACKSLIDDEN is OK" that raises my hackles...

All of that said, I shall nevertheless be very interested in hearing how they responnd to your excellent post, P.I.T!

:D

SunLiteGrl

13th August 2003, 09:19 AM

No! I believe you are saved as long (or only as long, depending on time) as you follow Jesus as your Christ and Savior. You can't be "Saved" and then just continue living your life the way you want to, knowing you are "saved". :sigh: You still must follow the 10 commandments, strive to be like Jesus, pray, etc. I'm not saying if you don't always do these thigns, yoru not saved. I"m just saying you can't be "saved" and then not ever worry about God for the rest of your life. I know I wrote that quickly, so it might not have turned out as I wanted, but that is my and my church's opinion.

preacherintraining

13th August 2003, 09:28 AM

And what about all the scriptures where it says you can lose your salvation?

Joseph8486

13th August 2003, 11:55 AM

That was a good post saying how you can lose your salvation. I too am waiting on someone to respond to it.

whyme

14th August 2003, 12:16 PM

Excellent post. I never heard these verses brought up in reference to this.

C. Davis

14th August 2003, 03:29 PM

PTI,

Am I correct in that you are claiming that Christ's work on the cross was not enough to save us and that we need to add our own works to His work?

Your long post would take too long to reply, but it could be shown that these are mainly talking about false professors ["I NEVER knew you"]. Context would reveal these verses in their proper understanding.

Please explain how "everlasting" life [John 3:36] can be called "everlasting" if it can be lost? Can we also be thrown out of heaven in a 1000 years if "everlasting" really means temporary?

Galations 2:21

Chuck

whyme

14th August 2003, 03:35 PM

I have a feeling you are too scared to read the post because you will see what it really says. As far as your eternal life comment: as you will see it says he who believeth. IF you had read the post preacher had posted you would see that losing salvation happens to those who turn away and in essence stop believin.

Ben johnson

14th August 2003, 09:09 PM

I'm not "Preacherintraining", but may I respond? :)
Am I correct in that you are claiming that Christ's work on the cross was not enough to save us and that we need to add our own works to His work?Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was SUFFICIENT and COMPLETE. Nothing else needs to be done. But passages like Romans 5:17-18 show that, while "justification CAME to ALL MEN" (in exactly the same quantity that condemnation CAME to ALL MEN), the FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE, must be RECEIVED. Says exactly that in Rom5:17, Jn1:12, etc...
Your long post would take too long to reply, but it could be shown that these are mainly talking about false professors ["I NEVER knew you"]. Context would reveal these verses in their proper understanding.The "I never knew you" was explained to me as "an ANNULLMENT" --- so it's as IF He never knew them, though they MAY have BEEN saved. It would be in vain to labor to paint ALL OF THE VERSES as "FALSE PROFESSORS"; passages such as 2Pet2:20-22 use the same exact words as 2Pet1:1-4, and the CH1 "ESCAPEES" are JUST as saved as the CH2; [b]the same words cannot mean opposite things, ESPECIALLY between two adjacent chapters.
Please explain how "everlasting" life [John 3:36] can be called "everlasting" if it can be lost? Can we also be thrown out of heaven in a 1000 years if "everlasting" really means temporary?Peter explains this, in 1:1:4 --- the INHERITANCE ("eternal life") is reserved in Heaven for us; it is "undefiled and imperishable". But our GRASP of that "eternal life", our "partnership in Christ", is NOT necessarily eternal. Why would Heb10:36 read: "You have need of endurance, so that when you have DONE the will of God you may receive the Promise (eternal life)"? Why would Paul write in Col1:23 "present you holy and blameless before God IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM CHRIST"?

You see, salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Christ; it is one thing to RECEIVE Him, but it is far more to WALK IN HIM". "As you have RECEIVED CHRIST, [b]so walk IN Him!" Col2:6

In Jn15 it says, "Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you. Anyone who does NOT abide is cast off as a ...dried branch and thrown into the fire".

Receiving a gift changes nothing of the gift; it is entirely of the giver and none of us; yet, the receiver has the ability to throw that gift away. As Heb10:35, in saying "DO NOT THROW AWAY YOR CONFIDENCE", really says (see Heb10:19 & 6:19) "DO NOT THROW AWAY JESUS!"

All of the Scriptures present salvation as forfeitable, in man's view. Read the entire letter of Hebrews, paying close attention to 2:1-3, 3:12-14, 4:1, 10:26-37, 12:25; read 2Peter paying close attention to 1:10-11, 2:20-22, 3:14 & 17. Do you see anything of "ETERNAL SALVATION" in any of these?

Salvation is FELLOWSHIP. With Jesus and the Father (1Jn1:3,6, Heb3:1 & 14), with the Spirit (Matt3:11, Heb6:4) As Romans (esp ch8) admonishes us, "walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh; put to death the things of the flesh."

Serapha

14th August 2003, 09:18 PM

hieveryone

15th August 2003, 11:47 AM

Act.16:31 "Believe (aor.act.imper.) in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (fut.pass.ind.)."

Well... that's what the verse says. You will be saved in the future passive indicative ....
The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
I agree with Acts 16:31. you will be saved. but if you mess up, even if you believe in god, and sin and do not repent, meaning change your ways, you have lost the salvation you once had.

Serapha

15th August 2003, 09:50 PM

I would also tell you to read Ephesians Chapter 2:1-10.

And then I would ask you to research the definitions of transgression and of sin.
Sin is from the Greek word "hamartia", and it means, literally, missing the mark. For whatever the goal is, you have missed the mark. The intention in sin is to miss the mark.

In comparison, transgressions are from the Greek parabasis, "a going aside, an overstepping". Transgression, in comparision, to sin, is not missing the mark, but failing to hit the mark.... overstepping. The intent is still to hit the mark. In sin, the intent is to miss the mark.

Paul writes of transgressions and sins. In studying the verse, and comparing it to Paul's other writings, Paul writes the "sins" are for the Gentiles, those who are yet unsaved, and "transgressions" are for the converted Jews who have heard the word and made the decision to follow the teachings of Christ.

When you are converted to Christ, your heart no longer intends to sin. If you are truly saved, you are a new creation, and your intention will be to hit the mark every time. You are not a modified creation, but a new creation in Christ. The old creation is gone. Original sin is a part of the old creation. As a new creation, you are reconciled to God, and your heart's intent is to serve God. You will have transgressions in your life which require repentance, and you will fall short of the mark many, many times; but you will never miss the mark completely again. The intent of your heart is on God. If your intent is not on God, you have not truly had a conversion in your heart.

~malaka~

Serapha

15th August 2003, 09:58 PM

As we search the Scriptures, we see many writers of the Old Testament warned the people not to stray, not to fall, but to continue in God’s will. Again, Jesus warned the people (as did nearly every writer of the New Testament), not to return to their old ways once they were saved.

So.... could you cite one example from Christ or Paul of a person who was a true believer and who returned to their old ways to be lost eternally? Certainly, if there a verifiable case, then it would be recorded as an example to others.

~malaka~

Ben johnson

16th August 2003, 04:30 AM

So.... could you cite one example from Christ or Paul of a person who was a true believer and who returned to their old ways to be lost eternally? Certainly, if there a verifiable case, then it would be recorded as an example to others. Unfortunately, PIT is not available. A shame, too; he made some very good posts. (But rules are rules, and it is essential to discuss with honor and respect, even when we find ourselves in disagreement.) The thing is, NEITHER YOU NOR I am a "savior" --- there is only ONE. So, what someone ELSE chooses to believe, is completely between themselves and the Savior.

In 1Cor13, it says "the greatest gift is love"; I have confronted many peoples--- Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Athiests, real witches; never do I condemn or call names or preach "hellfire and brimstone" --- I seek to win them with love (And many have told me directly that a "non-blasting-attitude" is FAR more impressive...)

Perhaps I might offer an answer, if I may? In John15 Jesus spoke of "knowing someone by their fruits". He says, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abideds in Me and I in him, bears much fruit; if anyone does NOT abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, dries up, and is cast into the fire. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will..." Is there anything that SUGGESTS that "those who DON'T abide were NEVER there in the FIRST PLACE? How can Jesus be understood, EXCEPT that "abiding is a choice"?

Now --- you wanted an example from Paul. How about Galatians? In 3:1 Paul says: "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? Did you receive the Spirit by works of LAW, or by HEARING with FAITH? Are you so FOOLISH? Having BEGUN by the Spirit, are you now ending with flesh? 5:1) Keep standing firm, and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 7) You WERE running WELL --- who hindered you from obeying the truth? 4) You who SEEK to be justified by LAW, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE, you are SEVERED FROM CHRIST!"

They were BEGUN by the Spirit, they WERE RUNNING WELL; can you "paint" them as "NEVER-BEEN-SAVED"? I sincerely do not think you can. Then can you re-interpret "FALLEN-FROM-GRACE and SEVERED-FROM-CHRIST" as STILL SAVED? Likewise, you cannot. How can this mean anything, but "fallen-from-salvation"?

Paul, in 1Tim1:19-20: "Fight the good fight, keeping the faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regards to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to satan hoping they might be taught not to blaspheme."

2Tim2:17-21: "Avoid worldly and empty chatter, it will lead to ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the Resurrection has already occurred, and thus they upset the faith of some. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, 'The Lord knows those who are His', and 'let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickedness' Now in a large house are gold and silver vessels, and also wooden and earthenware, some to honor and some to dishonor. THEREFORE if a man cleanses himself from these things, HE WILL BE A VESSEL FOR HONOR, sanctified and useful for every good work. Now flee from youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peaced, with those who call on the Lord with a pure heart. Refuse foolish ad ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce fights." I quoted the whole passage that speaks of Hymenaeus and Philetus, and Alexander; these three are held out as bad examples; can you successfully contend that "NONE of the three were ever SAVED"? Then why does Paul say "shipwreck of their faith, WANDERED FROM THE TRUTH"? And BECAUSE of their bad examples, can you deny the REAL WARNING to BELIEVERS?

KelsayDL

16th August 2003, 07:09 PM

So.... could you cite one example from Christ or Paul of a person who was a true believer and who returned to their old ways to be lost eternally? Certainly, if there a verifiable case, then it would be recorded as an example to others.

~malaka~

Sure.

Re 3:5 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=re+3:5&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Apparently, there are those whose name are in the book of life, that will be blotted out.

The inference is clear.

OSAS is a deception.:(

admtaylor

16th August 2003, 11:14 PM

all that work and it didn't post......I just responded to that long scripture referenced rich post from a few days ago and something happened that prevented it from posting and I lost it. So......I will try again later. It took me about half an hour to write what I did. <sigh> I won't give up...

MAC

17th August 2003, 12:14 AM

Do you believe that once you are saved, you are always saved? Please choose an option from the poll above...

Yes - I - Do

MAC

17th August 2003, 12:17 AM

qt

Have you ever wondered why you do what you do?
One former Navy pilot tells how he was living a wilder life than he knew he should live. He decided his problem was that he was being led astray by his friends in flight training.

So he arranged to finish his work in the program early and be transferred to another field nearby. Yet, it wasn't long, he said, before he was back in the same old bars, with the same girls, just with different friends. One night out-on-the-town he wondered, "Why do I do this?" And he realized, "Because I like to."

Before a person becomes a Christian-I mean a real Christian, not just someone who says he is-his "want-to" is broken. He is not interested in God. He is bored by church and by reading his Bible. He cannot "make" himself "want to" do right and he cannot "make" himself "want not" to do wrong.

When a person is born again, God repairs his "want-to."

Even though he still feels the pull of temptation, he will have a new set of desires. He will love God and want to talk to God in prayer and see what God has to say to him in His Word, the Bible. He wants to be around other people who love God; church attendance becomes meaningful.

There is a new desire to obey God.

Why do we do what we do? The answer is simple: we do what we do because of what we are. It's like fruit trees. Apple trees bear apples, pear trees produce pears, peach trees grow peaches. The fruit is the natural result of the nature of the tree. I suppose you could tie apples to a peach tree, but that would not make it an apple tree.

In the same way, adding religious activities to one's schedule doesn't make one a Christian. Just as the fruit of the tree naturally flows from the nature of the tree, even so the attitudes, words, and actions of our lives reveal the true nature of ourselves.

Jesus said, "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit....Therefore, by their fruits you will know them" (Mat_7:17, Mat_7:20).

AlexK

17th August 2003, 12:19 AM

I do. Once saved always saved.

Joelk

17th August 2003, 12:43 AM

I voted in favor af salvation capable of beng lost.
The way I think obout it is that Christianity is like AA(alcoholics annominous) only alcohol is replaced by the world and the flesh. And the organisation is the church. And the wagon analogy works perfect for it. When you are on the wagon, you are worshiping God, and serving him, the wagon moves forward as the sanctification process takes place. But just like in AA you can sin amd fall off the wagon.
My hope is that once saved always saved. But deep down somthing tells me it is not.
That is why we must always be aware of what we are doing and the way that it affects our relationship with Jesus.
I've been a back slidden christian. And I can tell you in that situation you feel compleatly hopeless and miserable. And we know that were the Holy Spirit dwelles there will be fruits of the spirit. And if there is no fruit like the bible says, that branch will be broken off.......Joel

C. Davis

17th August 2003, 04:47 PM

I have noticed many seem to stumble at the "branches" being broken off. This stems from the mistake of thinking the branches are saved people.

A careful reading of the entire chapter in Romans 11 will show that the original branches represent ALL Jews and the branches that were grafted in are ALL Gentiles[vs. 11]. To be a "branch" means to be put in a favored postion with the Lord, not a postion of salvation. This is similar to the favored postion that children find themselves in that have a Christian parent [1 Corinthians 7:14].

However, these favored positions do not mean these people were saved. No one would claim that all Israelites [Romans 11:1] or all Gentiles [Romans 11:13] were saved and then some had there salvation "cut off".

Jews[natural branches] were cut off from their place of privilege by unbelief. Gentiles[wild branches] can be cut off from their present place of privilege by unbelief also. A place of privilege is not equal to salvation. It just makes it easier to get saved. Just like being born to Christian parents. However, unbelief, can not only keep you from getting saved, it can also remove you from the place of privilege God has placed Jews & Gentiles in.

Anyone who appears saved and then lost was neversaved in the first place. Jesus NEVER knew them [Matthew 7:21-23, 1 John 2:19].

"Everlasting" life is given at the moment of conversion [John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47]. It would be a lie to call something "everlasting" that can be stopped. Even God is "everlasting" [Romans 16:26].

Chuck

aggie03

17th August 2003, 05:00 PM

1 Timothy 1:18-20 ASV

This charge I commit unto thee, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which led the way to thee, that by them thou mayest war the good warfare; (19) holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith: (20) of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme.

How could these individuals have suffered shipwreck to their faith if they had none to begin with?

Is this something that some among you might be willing to discuss in a formal debate?

KelsayDL

17th August 2003, 06:02 PM

Read about the Book of Life, and names being blotted out.

It's a simple matter.

At one point your name may be in the book of life.

How did it get their? Because of faith in Yeshua.

How may it be blotted out?

Which according to the very words of Yeshua, may indeed be blotted out.

The inference is there.

OSAS is a deception.

Raizerin

17th August 2003, 06:44 PM

KelsayDL

17th August 2003, 08:20 PM

So Yeshua was lying when he spoke of peoples names being blotted out of the book of life?

C. Davis

17th August 2003, 08:35 PM

Kelsay,

I read of believers NOT having their names blotted out of the book of life. Please give me the chapter and verse where someone WAS blotted out of the book of life. Thanks.

Aggie,

Shipwreck of faith does not equal loss of salvation. It equals shipwreck of correct teaching and doctrines. See the book of Jude.
Please respond/refute the scriptures I quoted in my previous post. Thanks. Is "everlasting" life everlasting or not? Does "hath" mean present tense or not? The most simple scriptures in the Bible are the one's concerning salvation. They mean exactly what they say.

Chuck

KelsayDL

17th August 2003, 08:50 PM

C. Davis,

Please tell me why a non-believer would have their name in the book of life in the first place.

Thanks.

Or, perhaps the lord was giving a warning to TRUE believers. Stay faithful or he himself WILL blot out your name.

If OSAS were true, there would never be a great falling away from the faith. Which unfortunately for the OSAS position, is a real event.

Real believers, losing faith and falling away.

2 Thessalonians 2: 1 - 17 - Study This Chapter (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=2th+2&version=kjv&showtools=1) 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, F4 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=2th+2&version=kjv&showtools=0#F4) 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

OSAS is a deception.

admtaylor

17th August 2003, 10:16 PM

Ben johnson

17th August 2003, 11:04 PM

A careful reading of the entire chapter in Romans 11 will show that the original branches represent ALL Jews and the branches that were grafted in are ALL Gentiles[vs. 11]. To be a "branch" means to be put in a favored postion with the Lord, not a postion of salvation.The writer makes a careful usage of "singular" and "plural"; it seems to speak of "natural branches", plural, representing the individuals that comprise the nation of Israel; similarly, it speaks of "wild branch", seemingly talking to each individual Gentile.

To say "branch" is not "salvation", consider John15:1-6: "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of Mine that bears no fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. ...Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the brancheS. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. Anyone who does NOT abide in Me is cast for as a branch and dries up, and the dried branches are gathered and thrown into the fire."

Hi, Raizerin! Welcome to the boards! Scripture DOES tell us that "He will never leave nor forsake us" (Heb13:5) --- but what of OUR leaving HIM? John10:28 says "No one can FORCIBLY-REMOVE (harpazo -- seize, force) you from His hand". What do you think of 2Tim2:11-13? Doesn't that strike you as CONDITIONAL? Doesn't it say, "if we ENDURE (abide), we will reign, BUT if we DENY Him He will deny us (and we will NOT reign) --- if we are FAITHLESS and PERISH, yet He remains faithful, even THOUGH we perish"?

So Yeshua was lying when he spoke of peoples names being blotted out of the book of life?
Hi, Kelsay! Welcome to the boards, too! Most who believe in "OSAS", understand that Scripture is filled with "HYPERBOLE"; that is, warnings that are not really sincere --- just fatherly advice warning of what MIGHT happen, but really CAN'T happen, it's just "bugbear" to warn us towards righteousness. Thus the "will not be blotted" is taken as "statement of the OBVIOUS". (He who CONQUERS I will NOT blot his name from the book, but of COURSE you WILL conquer I'm being RHETORICAL and you CANNOT be blotted!)

...but, if you THINK about it, assuming that you MUST be "in-the-book-of-life" to go to heaven, what about INFANTS? According to Jesus in Matthew 19:14, children belong to Heaven (and infants who die WILL GO to Heaven). But how can that be? UNLESS --- unless each person is BORN with their name IN THE BOOK, and gets "blotted" as he/she reaches "accountability" and rejects Jesus? Can you suggest anything else?
Please give me the chapter and verse where someone WAS blotted out of the book of life. Thanks.That's really hard to do. Examples we gave about Hymenaeus and Philetus and Alexander, but "OSAS" people just say "well they were never really SAVED". We show 2Pet3:17 and 2Tim2:13, but "OSAS" people say "oh you can be UNSTEADFASTLY and FAITHLESSLY SAVED!" We show MANY verses that speak of "falling", but OSAS people say "that's only BACKSLIDING, not actually UNSAVED!" (BACKSLIDINGLY-SAVED?)

But maybe there IS a verse that speaks of "being removed from the book of life":
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Shipwreck of faith does not equal loss of salvation. It equals shipwreck of correct teaching and doctrines.OK, we have "FAITHLESSLY-SAVED", we have "UNSTEADFASTLY-SAVED", and now we have "SHIPWRECKED-FAITH-SAVED". (and according to 1Tim1:20b, you would also say "BLASPHEMINGLY-SAVED"?) See the book of Jude.Which verse? Verse 21 perhaps? "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for His mercy to eternal life"? Does that SOUND like "OSAS"?

And if you think that "not-abiding-in-the-teachings-of-Christ" is still SAVED, have you ever read 2Jn1:7-9? It warns us against deceivers, warns us to watch ourselves that we not lose what we've accomplished, and warns that "anyone who GOES TOO FAR and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD"; do you think such a person (who doesn't have God) is still saved?
The most simple scriptures in the Bible are the one's concerning salvation. They mean exactly what they say.
That's what I would think, too; but warning after warning is understood by OSAS as: "It doesn't really MEAN what it SAYS, it's only HYPERBOLE, empty BUGBEAR". Clear words "unsteadfast/faithless/fallen/severed" don't really MEAN they lost salvation but they are either STILL SAVED, or they never were saved to BEGIN with. The same exact words in TWO ADJACENT CHAPTERS mean TOTALLY OPPOSITE THINGS; so 2Pet1:1-4 escapees WERE saved, but 2Pet2:20-22 escapees WERE NEVER SAVED (even though BOTH are "apopheugo-escaped" the "corruption/defilements) through the "epignosis-TRUE-KOWLEDGE" of the "kurios-Lord" and "soter-Savior" Jesus Christ)

How do we decide which verses "mean exactly what they say", and which verses, DON'T?

lared

17th August 2003, 11:16 PM

I remember a woman who had gotten saved, after attending a Billy Graham crusade. She gave her life to Christ.

A few years later, she became one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Is she still saved?

aggie03

18th August 2003, 02:24 AM

According to what Scriptures teach, no she's not. That's an excellent example. Jehovah's Witnesses Deny the deity of Christ - how can you do that and still have eternal salvation?

explorerofmind

18th August 2003, 03:30 AM

Hi, I'm sort of new here. I'd like to write my opinion on this subject though. Like I said I'm new so be nice...
It seems like everyone that is Christian believes in being saved. Some people view being saved as different things, But I personaly believe that the whole christian Idea about being saved originated from an idea of being saved from sin...
I am a guy that likes to think about things such as other people's beliefs ( that's why I've joined this website), and if there is anyone else out there like me, I think that is a good one to ponder on.
Anyways continuing sharing my opinion:... most of Christianity has beliefs, that seem to be centered around anti-sin. And What is sin? many people will say That wich God doesn't like or commands against. Some people will say That wich is harmfull to your Spirit. I believe it is both. God commands against it BECAUSE it is harmfull to your spirit. If you follow the thought through You might agree with me. For ex: One highly esteemed law of God among almost all religions is being true to your spouse. Cheating on a spouse does horible things to the inside of a person. It effects (what I consider) The most important parts of a person's soul. Thier love. Thier true respect for themselves for their spouse, and the person they are cheating with. The Bible says "God is Spirit", and it also says "God is Love."
"For this is life eternal to know thee the only true god and Jesus christ whom thou hast sent." An eternal life sounds like heaven to me. Mabe we should be trying to know real love and spirit. The effects of sin I believe is that wich keeps us away from knowing these things. Jesus can take us away from the sin. But, if we sin again the sin can take us away from the way Jesus has saved us. And sin can even sometimes make us forget about what it was like for the time when we were inocent. And god won't force us to stay away from harmfull things after he has saved us from them. I don't believe that is his way. He doesn't force. He calls like Elijah heard: in " a stillsmallvoice "

That's what I'm getting.
Be happy to hear your opinion (as long as your not TOO critical.
sinc.
"Jacob"

C. Davis

18th August 2003, 04:08 AM

Kelsey,

Please address my points instead of avoiding them, such as the definition of "everlasting' and does a believer recieve "everlasting" life at conversion or not? We can then move on to other questions [Matthew 21:23-27]. Thanks.

Chuck

lalalala

18th August 2003, 09:18 AM

Yes, you are always saved. In fact, I believe it says that somewhere in the bible, though I could be wrong.
Anyway, once you become saved, you will always be saved. You may revert back to being a sinner, but you will still be saved, and still go to Heaven. You will simply have a worse life here on earth if you sin. It says in the Bible that God will never turn his back on you, and he will always forgive you no matter what you do. So how could you possibly not be saved after being saved?
So, in your mind if you are saved and then you start killing people and you kill maybe about 300 people before you are finally taken down and during that time period you sleep around on your spouse and tell lies to people and steal, that God will not punish you?

JesseB.

18th August 2003, 09:23 AM

You are always saved, but must repent before you die.

KelsayDL

18th August 2003, 09:25 AM

I addressed every point you made to me Chuck.

I have no reason to avoid what you say.

The truth is truth.

You interpret the bible your way. Contrary to what it says, but it's your opinion that matters.

There will be those of the faith that fall away before the return of the Lord.

Sad, but quite true.

W.C.

18th August 2003, 11:48 AM

the scriptures speaks for themselves- A.W. Pink

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

everlasting- no beginning or end it is eternal

lalalala

18th August 2003, 12:03 PM

W.C.

18th August 2003, 12:34 PM

1. If Christ gives me eternal life and then its gone then that means I wasnt given eternal life in the first place.

2. When we are saved the Hoy Spirit is in us. So losing your salvation means that the Holy Spirit is going against its self

3. When people say that you can lose your salvation they deny the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us.

4. The previous verses that I posted discuss what Jesus came to do. They need to be refuted before you tell me what you think.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

5. If we can lose our salvation because of sin then that mean that Jesus didnt cover all of our sins. If I can commit a sin or sins that can make me lose my salvation then that means it was not covered on the cross.

6. So really the issue is what Jesus did on the cross.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus either took sin away or He didnt. obviously scripture shows that He did.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

giddyup

lalalala

18th August 2003, 12:39 PM

We can only be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, then we are to live according to the Spirit not according to the flesh. The Bible tells us, REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU-Acts 2:38. God imputes to us His righteousness by Jesus. Our sins are washed away by His blood shed on Calvary. Throughout the Scriptures, God reveals what His will for us is. We are warned, NOT EVERYONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME LORD, LORD, SHALL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN-Mt 7:21. Note: do THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS HEAVEN.

Satan will do everything possible to cause you not to do the will of God. He will do this through persecutions, which may cause you to be embarrassed or ashamed. Satan also uses cares of this world, deceitfulness of riches, pleasures of this world, and the lusts of other things, to keep you from doing God’s will. Satan will try to throw you into confusion through false teachings and traditions of men. He will do this through false teachers (the blind), through people, friends, relatives, your loved ones, and even literature. Satan uses, THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH, THE LUST OF THE EYES, AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE to draw you away-1 Jn 2:16. He uses FIERY DARTS-(your thoughts, flesh, and feelings)-Eph 6:16. You may be IN HEAVINESS THROUGH MANIFOLD TEMPTATIONS-1 Pe 1:6. It is God’s will, THAT THE TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH...THOUGH IT BE TRIED WITH FIRE, MIGHT BE FOUND UNTO PRAISE-1 Pe 1:7. Therefore, beloved, THINK IT NOT STRANGE, CONCERNING THE FIERY TRIAL WHICH IS TO TRY YOU, AS THOUGH SOME STRANGE THING HAPPENED UNTO YOU-1 Pe 4:2.

As we search the Scriptures, we see many writers of the Old Testament warned the people not to stray, not to fall, but to continue in God’s will. Again, Jesus warned the people (as did nearly every writer of the New Testament), not to return to their old ways once they were saved. A large amount of Paul’s writings, concentrate on warning those who had been set free, who had found liberty through Christ Jesus, to stand firm. They were warned not to cast away their faith and confidence. He encouraged them to remain steadfast in the Word, in their faith, and in God’s will. But the sad fact is, few do stand fast. For MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN-Mt 22:14. Because STRAIGHT IS THE GATE, AND NARROW IS THE WAY, WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT-Mt 7:14. Many believe on Jesus Christ, but only a few are willing to do God’s will, obey the Scriptures, and depart from all willful sin.

It is written, BUT HE THAT RECEIVED THE SEED INTO STONY PLACES, THE SAME IS HE THAT HEARETH THE WORD, AND ANON WITH JOY RECEIVETH IT-Mt 13:20. RECEIVE IT WITH GLADNESS-Mk 4:16. RECEIVETH THE WORD WITH JOY-Lk 8:13. They are saved, born-again, renewed. So what happens to them? They, FOR A WHILE BELIEVE-Lk 8:13; ENDURE BUT FOR A TIME-Mk 4:17; DURETH (endure) FOR A WHILE-Mt 13:21. But then, WHEN TRIBULATION OR PERSECUTION ARISETH BECAUSE OF THE WORD-Mt 13:21; WHEN AFFLICTION OR PERSECUTION ARISETH FOR THE WORD’S SAKE-Mk 4:17; IN TIME OF TEMPTATION-Lk 8:13; BY AND BY (they become) OFFENDED-Mt 13:21. They FALL AWAY-Lk 8:13.

God’s Word shows us another group which go forth. Fruit appears to be starting to grow; but Satan comes to choke them. It is written, AND THAT WHICH FELL AMONG THORNS ARE THEY, WHICH, WHEN THEY HAVE HEARD, (GO FORTH)-Lk 8:14. HE...RECEIVED SEED...HEARETH THE WORD (now, Satan stops them by using)…THE CARE OF THIS WORLD, AND THE DECEITFULNESS OF RICHES-Mt 13:22; THE LUSTS OF OTHER THINGS-Mk 4:19; AND PLEASURES OF THIS LIFE-Lk 8:14; ENTERING IN, CHOKE THE WORD-Mk 4:19; AND BRING NO FRUIT TO PERFECTION (this seems to indicate fruit begins to grow, but never ripens)-Lk 8:14. IT BECOMETH UNFRUITFUL-Mk 4:19; HE BECOMETH UNFRUITFUL-Mt 13:22.

THE SALT (loses) HIS SALTNESS-Mk 9:50. They do not STAND FAST-Gal 5:1. They do not CONTINUE IN THE FAITH-Col 1:23. They do not retain THE STEADFASTNESS OF (their) FAITH IN CHRIST-Col 2:5. Paul said, FOR NOW WE LIVE, IF YE STAND FAST IN THE LORD-1 Thes 3:8. They do not CONTINUE IN THE GRACE OF GOD-Acts 13:43. They do not HOLD…their CONFIDENCE-Heb 3:14. They do not LET (the Word) ABIDE IN THEM…and REMAIN IN (them). They do not CONTINUE IN THE SON-1 Jn 2:24. These once born-again people, become unfruitful. They do not ENDURE UNTO THE END-Mt 24:13. They are TREES WHOSE FRUIT WITHERETH-Jude 12.

These people are CALLED, BUT…(not) CHOSEN-Mt 22:14. They, TURNED BACK FROM HIM-Job 34:27. Their FAITH failed-Lk 22:32. They did not CONTINUE IN MY WORD-Jn 8:31. They have turned FROM THE FAITH-Acts 13:8. Their hearts have become DARKENED-Ro 11:21. They shall BE CUT OFF-Ro 11:22. They are a CASTAWAY-1 Cor 9:27. They did not KEEP IN MEMORY the Word. They HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN-1 Cor 15:2. They RECEIVED…THE GRACE OF GOD IN VAIN-2 Cor 6:1. They are REMOVED FROM HIM-Gal 1:6. They HAVE KNOWN GOD…but have turned AGAIN TO BE IN BONDAGE-Gal 4:9. They are FALLEN FROM GRACE-Gal 5:4. BY SOME MEANS THE TEMPTER…TEMPTED them, and OUR LABOUR was IN VAIN-1 Thes 3:5. The SPIRIT was quenched-1 Thes 5:19. They departed FROM THE FAITH-1 Tim 4:1. They now have DAMNATION BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH-1 Tim 5:12. They have ERRED FROM THE FAITH-1 Tim 6:10. They departed FROM THE LIVING GOD-Heb 3:12. They HAVE DONE DESPITE UNTO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE-Heb 10:29. They have drawn BACK…and God’s SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN them-Heb 10:38,39. They WERE CLEANED ESCAPED FROM THEM WHO LIVE IN ERROR, but they became ENTANGLED AGAIN-2 Pe 2:18, 20. They were LED AWAY WITH THE ERROR OF THE WICKED-2 Pe 3:17. THOU ART FALLEN-Rev 2:5. Their name is taken away OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE-Rev 22:19. They are BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK OF THE LIVING-Ps 69:28. For it had BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT…BUT IT IS HAPPENED UNTO THEM ACCORDING TO THE TRUE PROVERB, THE DOG IS TURNED TO HIS OWN VOMIT AGAIN; AND THE SOW THAT WAS WASHED TO HER WALLOWING IN THE MIRE-2 Pe 2:21,22.

Contender4Christ

18th August 2003, 02:42 PM

There sure are a lot of people getting banned lately

OnenessWoman

18th August 2003, 02:49 PM

I have had the Holy Ghost for quite sometime now. I can tell you this from MY experience and what I was raised to believe.

Jesus is a gentleman, he does not force himself on you and he WILL NOT push himself into your life.

Jesus calls to everyone, it's whether or not they decide to listen and answer that call, that determines where their life goes.

I believe and was taught that if one did "backslide"...then they are more or less telling God that they don't need him anymore (therefore, not wanting his spirit living inside them).
Jesus IS merciful and welcomes back with open arms BUT when you come back, you lose something (read the Prodical Son). They could have lost out on numbers of souls they could have reached during the time that they were running, they could be feeling that they failed him ..thus not being able to fully forgive themselves...etc

Anyways, I found this in a search engine and was very drawn to it. I hope to become a regular part of this forum! :)

W.C.

18th August 2003, 02:57 PM

Noone has yet to refute what I said. instead I get a whole load of verses that dont even say you can lose your salvation. We have a responsibility to live pleasing to God but that doesnt mean that it is up to us to keep our salvation. We must look at scripture in its entirety.

Where is that verse that says Jesus is gentlemen?
He was a real gentlemen when He overturned the money changers wasnt He. In John 6 Jesus says that all that are given him will be raised up in the last day and all that the Father gives Him will come to him.

Contender4Christ

18th August 2003, 03:17 PM

Contender4Christ

18th August 2003, 03:18 PM

Satan uses, THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH, THE LUST OF THE EYES, AND THE PRIDE OF LIFE to draw you away-1 Jn 2:16. He uses FIERY DARTS-(your thoughts, flesh, and feelings)-Eph 6:16. You may be IN HEAVINESS THROUGH MANIFOLD TEMPTATIONS-1 Pe 1:6. It is God’s will, THAT THE TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH...THOUGH IT BE TRIED WITH FIRE, MIGHT BE FOUND UNTO PRAISE-1 Pe 1:7. Therefore, beloved, THINK IT NOT STRANGE, CONCERNING THE FIERY TRIAL WHICH IS TO TRY YOU, AS THOUGH SOME STRANGE THING HAPPENED UNTO YOU-1 Pe 4:2.

If you can't lose your salvation then why are there so many warnings not to fall away?

OnenessWoman

18th August 2003, 03:19 PM

I never said I had a scripture for my statement that "Jesus is a gentleman". I simply stated what I believed. Having a personal relationship with him for many years, he has shown me that he is a complete gentleman. Almost anyone will tell you that if you aren't recieving all that he has to offer you, it's because you're not letting him give it to you.

So that's is why I believe that my Saviour is a gentleman ;)

Raizerin

18th August 2003, 03:20 PM

^ ^ Because you will be punished for your sins, not because you won't go to Heaven.

Contender4Christ

18th August 2003, 03:22 PM

Because you will be punished for your sins, not because you won't go to Heaven.
What will the punishment be then? Show me a verse where it says what the punishment will be before you go to heaven.

Raizerin

18th August 2003, 03:33 PM

Right off hand I can't think of a scripture, but I know that you will be punished for your sins. But not by God himself. Got keeps you protected from the devil, however, when you sin and do not repent, he can no longer protect you. This leaves you open for satin's attacks. And, therefore, you will recieve punishment in one way or another for sinning. But that doesn't mean that you're no longer saved.

Chrystallion

18th August 2003, 04:10 PM

Ben johnson

18th August 2003, 05:48 PM

There sure are a lot of people getting banned latelyIt's not "a lot of people", it's one person --- who cannot resist calling names like "IDIOT" and "MORON" and "STUPID"; and rather than to submit to discipline, receiving a simple suspension, that person keeps returning under new names. He makes excellent posts here; I wish he would learn patience and humility and "submission to authority", and learn "respect and honor and not-name-calling"--- you cannot win people's hearts until they SEE that you RESPECT them; everyone is welcome here, AS LONG AS there is no "flaming" or "spaming" or bad posts.

Ben johnson

18th August 2003, 06:41 PM

You are always saved, but must repent before you die.What if you DON'T? Repentance is a CONTINUAL WALK; thus "salvation is not a GAME-SHOW, there is not "ONE FORGOTTEN SIN that can sound the LOSE-BUZZER"; we continually walk with Christ, we walk in repentance...
"But if we continue to sin willfully after HAVING RECEIVED KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying certainty of judgment and the fury of fire which consumes the adversaries"... Heb10:26

the scriptures speaks for themselves- A.W. PinkThe Scriptures DO speak for themselves. FTR, "Arthur Walkington Pink" ("The Nature of God", "Irresistible Grace", etc) is very much a Calvinist. And his assertions are easily refuted with Scripture.

Take this passage in John 6 --- the understanding is that there is ONE GROUP who is to be "LIFTED UP", ONE GROUP who is saved. Thus, John6:39 and 40 are PARALLEL, not SEQUENTIAL; there are NONE who are given to Christ BEFORE THEY BELIEVE! This passage is really Jesus asserting His DEITY --- in response to the Jews:
"Isn't this JESUS, whose father and mother we KNOW? Didn't we see this KID grow UP? Who does He think He IS?!"
Akin to John14:1 ("You believe in God, believe also in Me."), Jesus is saying: "I am the same as God; if you come to the Father, then the FATHER will give you to ME!"

John6:40 says, "The WILL (thelema-desire) of God is that ALL who behold Him and believes, may have eternal life..." This flat refutes the Calvinism to which Pink subscribes; for Pink says "only those God has CHOSEN will believe, but certainly not available to ALL".

1. If Christ gives me eternal life and then its gone then that means I wasnt given eternal life in the first place.
The "eternal life" is "the inheritance, imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away; reserved in Heaven fur us, protected by the power of God through FAITH for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ...Obtaining as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1

Pink's "CALVINISM" says "faith is NOT OURS, it is INSTILLED (installed?) by God"; Paul says "faith comes from the heart" (Rom10:10).

2. When we are saved the Hoy Spirit is in us. So losing your salvation means that the Holy Spirit is going against its self
No, it means "the SPIRIT is RESISTIBLE" (Acts7:51), the SPIRIT can be GRIEVED (Eph4:30), can be INSULTED ("How much severer punishment will he deserve who has TRAMPLED under foot the SON of GOD, has regarded as unclean the BLOOD of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Heb10:29)

Does anyone think that a RESISTED/GRIEVED/INSULTED Spirit, will still indwell a person??? (And how do you think he WAS SANCTIFIED, it he NEVER WAS SAVED?)

3. When people say that you can lose your salvation they deny the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us.
Where is the verse that says "the SPIRIT keeps us AGAINST OUR WILLS?" Contrast Jude 24 ("He is ABLE to keep you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy"), with Jude21 ("KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE.") Do you see the DUAL ASPECT of our salvation? God's grace, OUR FAITH!

4. The previous verses that I posted discuss what Jesus came to do. They need to be refuted before you tell me what you think.
Jesus came to SAVE THE WORLD. (1Jn4:14) This refutes Pink's assertion that "Jesus came to save ONLY THE ELECT"...

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
And whoever abides in Christ, is saved...

5. If we can lose our salvation because of sin then that means that Jesus didnt cover all of our sins. If I can commit a sin or sins that can make me lose my salvation then that means it was not covered on the cross.
There absolutely WERE sins that the Cross did not cover! The cross covered ONLY the sins which are REPENTED, SURRENDERED to Christ! Unrepented sins are NEVER forgiven!

6. So really the issue is what Jesus did on the cross.
Why don't we let Paul answer this?
"SO THEN as thorugh one sin there resulted condemnation to ALL MEN ('Pas Anthropos'), EVEN SO through one act of righteousness came justification to ALL MEN ('Pas Anthropos'). For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned, much more those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the abundance of the gift of righteousness, will reign in life through ...Jesus Christ." Rom5:18,17 This passage alone refutes Pink --- justification CAME to ALL MEN, in EXACTLY the SAME QUANTITY that CONDEMNATION came to ALL MEN. There is no way to understand the FIRST "Pas Anthropos" as "EVERYONE", but then understand the SECOND "Pas Anthropos" as "ONLY SOME MEN".

You will ask, "if justification CAME to all men, then why aren't all men JUSTIFIED, the same as all men were CONDEMNED when CONDEMNATION CAME to all men?" The answer is in there; condemnation came UNCONDITIONALLY to all men (all men sined), justification came CONDITIONALLY, to all who RECEIVE CHRIST. Paul writes "RECEIVE" very clearly...

joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus either took sin away or He didnt. obviously scripture shows that He did.
The understanding here is that "Jesus takes away the sin of the world, IF THEY RECEIVE His forgiveness! (Repentance!) Obviously not ALL sins-of-the-world are taken away, because that would remove the power of the Cross; the Cross is SALVATION for all who BELIEVE!

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
Only those who REPENT, who RECEIVE His Forgiveness, who RECEIVE Him and the Sprit and who ABIDE in Him...

:)

xtxArchxAngelxtx

18th August 2003, 07:13 PM

God's Love is eternal, everlasting, unending. To say that we can loose our salvation is nothing but doubting Gods power.

There are time in which I thought that there was no way I can be saved due to sins I had committed, but that was only satan trying to get into my mind. Satan will do anything to get us to doubt God.

Once we are saved, and have repented and (as what Romans 10:9, and 17 says) if we confess with our mouth and beleive in our hearts that Jesus Christ is Lord, we will be saved.
Faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of God.

Once saved, our sins are irrellevent to God, and He only considers our Righteous acts. The Grace and Mercy God gives is never ending, even for our never ending sins. No matter what, you will sin, it's something you will have to face. Sin keeps us humble and thinking we are Holy and stuff, but truthfully, we are judged by our RIGHTEOUS acts, our fruit that we produce.

Once saved, always saved, the question is, what righteous acts are going to have to show for it?

Heres a little throw in. Blasaphying (sp?) the holy spirit is not Cursing God, or whatever you may think it is right off hand. It's actually rejecting the holy spirit when it comes down to you. God chooses us when we decide to have an open mind and consider accepting Him. If we decide, "You know what God, I just don't want you, at least not right now" that is rejecting the holy spirit, which is never accepting Christ.
At least that is what I believe.

Miss Shelby

18th August 2003, 07:46 PM

I haven't participated in salvation discussions in a while, but in regards to the Holy Spirit I have often seen it put forth that the Ephesian Scriptures state that being sealed guarantees our inheritence... unconditionally.

About Eph. 1:13,14, true, the Holy Spirit of promise is the guarantee of our inheritance, but that doesn't mean God won't take the Holy Spirit from you, by you forcing Him out. If one walks in repentance and cooperates with the Grace of God then one's salvation is reasonably secure. If one decides to walk in disobedience, ignoring the Holy Spirit's conviction, then how long before that person has a completely hardened heart. We are told to repent, warned not to fall into sin, implored to avoid wolves....etc...etc... all for a reason.

Do not quench the Spirit - 1 Thes. 5:19. Basically that means do not resist His influence in your life. That's a fundamental rule of walking with God. The word "quench" also means "to extinguish, to go out, to suppress of divine influence." It's the same word for the Foolish Virgins' lamps "going out" in Matthew 25:8. The lamps had the oil, and the oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

Taking that into consideration, I do not believe that being sealed with Holy Spirit once for all gaurantees entry to Heaven. We have a part to play.

Michelle

MAC

19th August 2003, 01:06 AM

I always asked my self this;
If salvation is entirely upon our obedience the sustaining and repentance what was the purpose of Christ dying on the cross when we our self are the tool in which salvation is upon. We can surely inter the kingdom of God in our righteousness!

The word is full of warnings and also full of assurance of His marvelous works in Christ Jesus.
So by His Faith I will trust that even do I am in this sinful body He have establish in me in His Grace that which was bought by blood.

C. Davis

19th August 2003, 12:19 PM

Miss Shelby

19th August 2003, 03:48 PM

I wonder................................

I wonder if those who claim that "everlasting" life is not really everlasting, and that one who is a sheep of the Lord Jesus can be lost eternally..............

I wonder if those who promote these things realize that they are saying Jesus did not do the will of His Father. I wonder if they realize they are teaching that Jesus failed His Father. Read John 6:38-40.

Does verse 39 say "all" or does it not?
Does verse 40 say "every one" or does it not?

Chuck
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Chuck,

I hope you don't mind, but I backed up a few verses so that we could see more of the passage. Notice the verbs which particularly pertain to the sheep? They are in the present tense. Comes and believes---there is an 's' on the end of those words. That indicates an action on the part of the sheep. Simply put, the sheep must continue to come and believe...that action must remain in the present tense.

:wave:

Michelle

aggie03

19th August 2003, 03:57 PM

excellent point Miss Shelby :clap:

C. Davis

20th August 2003, 04:15 AM

Miss Shelby,

Those who come to Jesus in true belief are "born again" [John chapter 3]. The first birth, which cannot be undone, is physical birth. The second birth is a spiritual birth, which cannot be undone anymore than the first birth.

You seem to be teaching that you must be born again and again and again and again etc. Thats not what I read. I read that "whosover believeth HATH [present tense] everlasting life [John 3:26]. "Everlasting" means without end [Romans 16:26].

Chuck

C. Davis

20th August 2003, 04:24 AM

Miss Shelby,

One more point. In the passage you quoted, does our Lord Jesus uses the word "never" when describing the further needs of those who come to him im belief and what does the word "never" really mean? Does it mean "maybe" or "never"?

Once you are in the family of God [born again] His work on the cross preserves you, not your works added to His.

Chuck

PS: Aggie, your comments do not help your position. Their not even worth the time to comment on.

Miss Shelby

20th August 2003, 09:40 AM

No I am not 'teaching' that one needs to be born again and again and again. That happens once. However, repentance doesn't happen just once. THAT is a continual thing. You cannot get around that the verbs in that passage are in the present tense. That implies action on the part of the believer. Faith IS action. Saving faith remains in the present tense.

Your position of God's work preserving the work of the faithful is Calvin's teaching, and that's fine. I do not agree with it, though.

Michelle

OnenessWoman

20th August 2003, 10:08 AM

I don't think I agree with this. Once you are "saved" you CAN and WILL fall back into sin (because nobody is perfect). Like I've said before, it's because of Gods grace and mercy that we are able to fall back into his arms of forgiveness after our mistakes. While reading this, I got the impression that some of you believe that once you are saved, you have no more work to do. So you're more or less saying "Hey, now I'm saved, it doesn't matter if I commit the same sin or ANY sin over and over again because I'm going to heaven anyways"
Just because you're "saved" doesn't mean you're going to Heaven. You need to play the part, win souls for Christ, act like Christ, good deeds, etc. Being "saved" isn't a free ticket into Heaven. What you do AFTER you're "saved" is what counts.

I could be saved and still have mean revengeful thoughts over something that bugs me, I could think I'm better than some people just because I have something they don't, I could sit in my house and do nothing, etc. etc. etc. Would I still be able to reside in Heaven when I'm still full of wordly ways? I think not because he is looking for only those that are of clean spirit and faithful to him. (that would mean one has to be perfect right? No, that means that you allow God to lead your path, you give him your ENTIRE being and life style and allow him to control EVERYTHING)

So the fact that you are "saved" is GOOD, but it's not enough. It's our faith, obedience, and submission to the Lord Jesus AFTER that, that helps us through our daily life successfully and also makes it EASIER to be presentable in the Kingdom of God.

*I say "saved" in quotations, only because we all seem to have a different definition to what it means to be saved* Hope I don't offend anyone.

Many Blessings!:D

Ben johnson

20th August 2003, 01:30 PM

Just because you're "saved" doesn't mean you're going to Heaven. You need to play the part, win souls for Christ, act like Christ, good deeds, etc. Being "saved" isn't a free ticket into Heaven. What you do AFTER you're "saved" is what counts. This is true; however, we must be careful not to focus on "works", on "making-ourselves-obedient-worth"...
he is looking for only those that are of clean spirit and faithful to him. (that would mean one has to be perfect right? No, that means that you allow God to lead your path, you give him your ENTIRE being and life style and allow him to control EVERYTHING)

So the fact that you are "saved" is GOOD, but it's not enough. It's our faith, obedience, and submission to the Lord Jesus AFTER that, that helps us through our daily life successfully and also makes it EASIER to be presentable in the Kingdom of God.
What you say about "giving Him EVERYTHING", is "spot-on". But it's not a matter of whipping ourselves into cleanliness and obedience, but rather first becoming BROKEN. Jesus said: "Unless you are humbled as a little child, you cannot see Heaven." Matt18:3-4 We are righteous because of Him IN US Yes He requires "clean spirits" --- but: "Such (sinners) WERE some of you; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our Lord." 1Cor6:11

Do you see? We are CLEAN, not by our efforts, but through His BLOOD! We could NEVER make ourselves good enough for Him --- so He doesn't require that of us; rather, He demands only surrender and submission, total collapse of our haughty pride; only brokenness on His altar will do. We are simply clay; once we are broken, He mixes the pieces with the water of life, and places us on the Potter's wheel --- and sculpts us into something wonderful. One who comes to God NOT-YET-BROKEN, has too many sharp corners to use...
So the fact that you are "saved" is GOOD, but it's not enough. It's our faith, obedience, and submission to the Lord Jesus AFTER that, that helps us through our daily life successfully and also makes it EASIER to be presentable in the Kingdom of God.
And He says just that: "Not everyone will inherit the Kingdom of God, but only those who DO the will of the Father." Matt7:21
*I say "saved" in quotations, only because we all seem to have a different definition to what it means to be saved*But OUR definitions really are irrelevant, aren't they? Salvation is explained in the Bible --- "CHRIST-IN-YOU". So many view salvation as a "BELIEF" --- it is not. It is FELLOWSHIP with God, it is being INDWELT by Christ and the Holy SPirit. Submitted, surrendered, to His Lordship and Mastery. Not by effort, but by submitting to His will in us.
Hope I don't offend anyone.And what if you did? We are promised, "in this world you will have tribulation; (but take courage, for I have overcome the world)." Jn16:33 We are promised that "they will HATE us and BEAT us, some of us will be PUT TO DEATH" (Lk21). If we speak words of truth, with kindness and love, many WILL be offended --- those of the DARKNESS hate the LIGHT. But offend them we must, if we desire them to walk with us triumphantly through the gates of Heaven, INTO HIS PRESENCE!!!

A good post, O.W. God bless you!

:D

Snowy

21st August 2003, 09:14 AM

I believe that you can get saved and fall from grace...you can't fall off the path of righteous and execpt to still end up in heaven without repenting and really meaning it

You have to not do that certain thing again you can't keep repenting then doing it over again and again

aggie03

23rd August 2003, 10:46 PM

PS: Aggie, your comments do not help your position. Their not even worth the time to comment on.

In debating and logical argumentation, that's called a dodge :). Soeaking of such things, there is a debate going on covering this subject in the IDD Formal Debates subforum. Mr. Davis, you are more than welcome to take up the opposing side of the debate, as is anyone else who wishes to do so :).

Ben johnson

23rd August 2003, 11:00 PM

you are more than welcome to take up the opposing side of the debate, as is anyone else who wishes to do so...I posted once in the "FORMAL DEBATE FORUM" --- and my post was promptly removed. It seems that I do not understand the rules of "formal debating"; nor do I really see a purpose in it. A simple and informal discussion seems better, for me anyway...

aggie03

23rd August 2003, 11:59 PM

You're not allowed to post in the formal debate forums unless you are one of the debators. I am looking for someone to defend the idea of "once saved always saved" in a debate that has been started. The person who was defending it had to leave before they even got to make their first post.

I believe that they're beneficial because a continuous dialogue may be maintained without constant interruption or new ideas being presented. If anyone's interested PM or just post in here and I'll send you the info on it :) !

Ben johnson

24th August 2003, 01:25 AM

I would be game to take the "OSNAS" side, if I could understand the rules; but I've never engaged in "formal debating" before. I AM writing that text (so I'm quite "versed" on the subject), and now it looks as though I really really need to finish it very soon (been procrastinating, afraid it won't be "comprehensive enough" --- on the plus side, I've learned even MORE verses to add, and more Greek and more related Scriptures; seems the "OSNAS" view keeps getting stronger & stronger....)

;)

mesue

24th August 2003, 09:31 PM

1 John 5:13, 1 John 3:20, Titus 1:2

Ben johnson

25th August 2003, 12:30 AM

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know you have eternal life"...

1 John 3:20 "Little children, let us love not with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart dondemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things."

Titus 1:2 "Paul, a bond-servand of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowedge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior...

Miss Shelby

25th August 2003, 10:24 AM

aggie03

26th August 2003, 02:20 PM

I would appreciate any help that you might be able to offer Miss Shelby! First, if you could help find someone who would be willing to defend OSAS that would be a great start. I haven't had much luck in finding anyone yet....but I'll keep looking!

semodana

26th August 2003, 02:51 PM

I believe that once saved you are always saved but I do believe one can back slide and must ask for forgiveness to be back in Grace with God. We are all tained by the orginal sin and must strive to be as Jesus is but we are human and sin will occur in our lives but we must recognize it, pray for forgiveness but I don't feel re baptism is necessary for forgiveness Dana

aggie03

26th August 2003, 03:40 PM

Welcome to the discussion semodana :wave:

what is your definition of backslide?

semodana

26th August 2003, 07:47 PM

Backslide means to do something that is not in line with Biblical teaching. I have know alot of people who have fallen away from their religous upbringing, such as after leaving home not attending church, drinking excessively or acting out sexually for examples. At some point any one of these people may return to the Church, and want to live in a Christain manner, God is there to forgive if we ask and truely desire to change our ways. As I feel something good comes out of ever situation, I feel someone who has been though something that tested their faith, or lead them away from Christ, then that person learns from their experience and can help counsel others in the same situation and lead them back to Christ. I don't feel rebaptism is necessary but God expects us to repent when we sin.

Schae7

26th August 2003, 11:18 PM

I believe that when you are truly saved you can never leave that status. You may backslide as everyone does but you can never be separated from Gods love. Sin is sin and because we are human we sin everyday. I don't think God discriminates and says you are not welcome in my kingdom because you do what every single person created does. All that is required is to believe that Jesus is your savior. If you are truly saved I don't see how you can reverse that decision to believe that. I think that is a question that should be pondered. Can a person that is truly save ever reverse that decision. Its also possible to live your life the way God wants and not be saved. If there were a person who did what God wanted and didn't accept Jesus he wouldn't be saved. All God requires is acceptance of Christ as your personal savior. He knows we will stray. The difference is knowing that even if you are saved you still have to account for all the things you do in your life. Personally I don't want to stand before God and say that I knew I was saved and decided not to follow what I knew is right. Once saved always saved. Just remember saved doesn't mean out of trouble with God.

Schae7

26th August 2003, 11:53 PM

Romans 2:4, TLB. "Don’t you realize how patient He is being with you? Or don’t you care? Can’t you see that He has been waiting all this time without punishing you, to give you time to turn from your sin? His kindness is meant to lead you to repentance."

Ben johnson

27th August 2003, 12:46 AM

You may backslide as everyone does but you can never be separated from Gods love. Doesn't, "BACKSLIDE", mean to SIN WILLFULLY? Repeatedly? Of course we sin; we are imperfect. But we (the-saved) strive towards righteousness --- and if we sin, we are convicted, we repent and He forgives us. Even if we do not recognize a specific sin, our fellowship with Him is a continual walk in submission to Him, continual walk in repentance; so we do not practice sin; we practice righteousness, and we abide in Him and in His forgiveness.

...BUT... if we CONTINUE in sin, how can there be REPENTANCE? Forgiveness is always conditioned on repentance. "If we continue sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries." Heb10:26 Isn't that talking about BACKSLIDERS???

I don't think God discriminates and says you are not welcome in my kingdom because you do what every single person created does. Paul says: "fornicaters, drundards, revilers, theives, covetous, perverts, carousers --- WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD." (1Cor6:9=11, Gal5:19-21). Have you found exceptions to what Paul said? Have you found some provision that removes what John said in 1:3:7-10 "Let no one deceive you; he who practices righteousness IS righteous, he who practices unrighteousness is of the devil; by this the children of God and the children of the devil are exposed...")
All that is required is to believe that Jesus is your savior. That's all? James says that's not enough: "You BELIEVE in one God, you do well; but even the DEMONS believe, and shudder..." Jms2:19

Jesus died for our sins, the "propitiation" (appeasement); unearned, undeserved; this is called "grace". And yet, it is up to us to RECEIVE this free gift --- our receiving Christ is called FAITH. Paul says: "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as LORD, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Paul seems to be saying "salvation requires TWO things --- God's grace, OUR FAITH."

Believing in Him as our Savior, is GRACE; receiving Him as LORD, is ...what?

What does "LORD" mean to you, Schae7?
Its also possible to live your life the way God wants and not be saved.Are you SURE of that? Jesus said: "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; therefore you will know them by their fruits." Mat7:17-20 What does that passage mean to you?
Just remember saved doesn't mean out of trouble with God.Hmmmm. You seem to be sayin' that one can be SAVED but have some things UNFORGIVEN (which "causes us to be in trouble with Him", as you say). What do you think the consequences will be for one who is SAVED, but UNFORGIVEN in some areas? (And why would they be unforgiven? Are they not repentant in those areas?)
Romans 2:4, TLB. "Don’t you realize how patient He is being with you? Or don’t you care? Can’t you see that He has been waiting all this time without punishing you, to give you time to turn from your sin? His kindness is meant to lead you to repentance."Ya' stopped too soon. "But YOU, by your stubborn and UNREPENTANT HEART, are storing up WRATH for the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds; to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE. But those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness (backslidden?), WRATH AND INDIGNATION (Hell)." Rom2:5-8

:)

Schae7

27th August 2003, 03:06 AM

Let me start off by further explaining what I wrote and then I’ll respond to your very valid points. Unfortunately I tend to type with the assumption that people can read my mind and know exactly what I mean. Sorry about that. I’m working on it. I usually don’t catch it until I’m called on it so thank you for that.:blush: Ok. To me backslide means exactly that. To slide back and to relapse into bad habits or sinful behavior. We all do that yet we are still forgiven. I’m not at all saying that we "practice" sin but I am saying that we do sin. Every day is an effort to make the flesh submit to the Holy Spirit. We have to "crucify" that flesh on a daily basis. I definitely should have made clear the perspective my opinion was coming from. To me a true Christian, a person who gave himself or herself to Christ is, always going to make an effort to walk in the ways of Christ. As humans our steps do falter and as Christians we have to repent and start the walk again. I don’t believe that somebody who is truly Christian can be separated from Gods love because that Christian will repent. I believe we all backslide daily. To me backslide = sin. All of my points are based on a person being Christian and repenting. So yes I believe that fornicators and drunkards so on…can inherit the kingdom of God based on their repentance. I should have put the statement " all that is required is to believe Jesus is your savior" differently. Your correct you do have to receive. I was again speaking on the assumption that people would know this and if not they would at least know I meant that. (That’s horrible, I’ve really got to work on that:sigh:) To me, receiving and faith go hand in hand. As to the question "What does "LORD" mean to you, Schae7?" It means master, leader, and teacher. I could answer your question in further detail if I knew what the goal of your question was. May I ask why you asked?:confused: When I said "Its also possible to live your life the way God wants and not be saved." I should have clarified. I mean with the exception of accepting Christ and repenting. I mean that you can go through life without being a thief or pervert or lying and you can give and be kind and still not be saved because you have not received Christ. You asked what this passage means to me: "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; therefore you will know them by their fruits." It means that a good person will produce well and a "bad" person will not. It means that if you are a nice, kind, wonderful person people will see that but that doesn’t mean that you are saved. " Hmmmm. You seem to be sayin' that one can be SAVED but have some things UNFORGIVEN " I was definitely not saying that. When I said, "Just remember saved doesn't mean out of trouble with God." I didn’t say you would be unforgiven. I’m just saying that you will have to account for what you do on this earth, saved or not. I guess "trouble" was the wrong word. You are right I did stop too soon. Romans 2:4, TLB. "Don’t you realize how patient He is being with you? Or don’t you care? Can’t you see that He has been waiting all this time without punishing you, to give you time to turn from your sin? His kindness is meant to lead you to repentance. But no, you won’t listen. So you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself because of your stubbornness in refusing to turn from your sin. For there is going to come a day of judgement when God, the just judge of all the world will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds" I really think that these verses say exactly what I am trying to say. He does want us to repent and if you refuse to turn from your sin, (are backsliding without repentance) you will have punishment. I don’t think a true Christian would refuse to turn from their sin. ". For there is going to come a day of judgement when God, the just judge of all the world will judge all people according to what they have done." This is all I meant by you would have to account for what you do even if you are saved. I hope I have clarified my point and if I haven’t please feel free to let me know what I’m missing. (Sometimes I miss a lot) God Bless and thank you again for pointing out where my assumptions were misleading. :sorry: Everyone have a hug.:hug: My treat!

Peter

27th August 2003, 06:48 PM

I didnt vote becaue I believe the question arises from a faulty view of salvation.

Ben johnson

28th August 2003, 01:59 AM

I don’t believe that somebody who is truly Christian can be separated from Gods love because that Christian will repent. They will ALWAYS repent?
I could answer your question in further detail if I knew what the goal of your question was. May I ask why you asked?Simply that many approach salvation as a BELIEF; and though they speak good WORDS, they don't really exhibit a "surrendered/submitted fellowship with Christ".
I mean that you can go through life without being a thief or pervert or lying and you can give and be kind and still not be saved because you have not received Christ. You asked what this passage means to me: "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; therefore you will know them by their fruits." It means that a good person will produce well and a "bad" person will not. I think Jesus is talkin' about Christians. Hence, the: "You will KNOW them by their FRUITS". This in harmony with what Paul said in Gal5, and what John said in 1Jn3 ("he who practices righteousness IS righteous, he who practices sinfulness is of the devil; by this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed").

Consider what Jesus said in John15 ("Apart from Me you can do NOTHING") --- and the question arises, "can someone really BE a good person, apart from Christ?"
He does want us to repent and if you refuse to turn from your sin, (are backsliding without repentance) you will have punishment. I don’t think a true Christian would refuse to turn from their sin. In context in Rom2:5-8, the "punishment" is eternal life, OR NOT.

There is a "line" in what you say --- "A true Christian would not refuse to repent". The question becomes, "which is the CAUSE, and which is the EFFECT?" Is it more correct to say "TRUE CHRISTIAN WILL REPENT", or to say "HE WHO REPENTS BECOMES A TRUE CHRISTIAN"?
I don’t believe that somebody who is truly Christian can be separated from Gods love because that Christian will repent. How does this harmonize with James 1:14-16? Or Hebrews 3:12-14? Or 1Tim4:1 & 16? Do you think a TRUE-CHRISTIAN can be deceived by sin into UNBELIEF?

All-in-all, Schae7, you wrote a very good post. We agree on much. "So yes I believe that fornicators and drunkards so on…can inherit the kingdom of God based on their repentance. " THAT for instance... ;)

I didnt vote becaue I believe the question arises from a faulty view of salvation.What do you see as the "CORRECT view of salvation"?

Schae7

28th August 2003, 03:07 AM

Oh my, you do want me to use my brain don't you Ben? Somehow I have the feeling that no matter how many of your questions I answer there will always be more. :mad: Just kidding. :clap: I LIKE IT! But alas,:( I am a very tired girl and although I have would absolutlely love to respond, I must sleep but I shall get back to you on that. You see the way I'm talking? You see all the little people? This is what happens when I'm sleep deprived. This is the type of person you are asking to respond. :eek: I just wanted you to be aware of that. Ok, I'm leaving because I fear I have long since stopped making sense. Really, I'm leaving before I lose my cool points. ( really I just like all the little people....ok so I'm a little strange too.) Good night Ben again. God bless you! I'll have a spiffy reply in the morning. (about the same time I'll be wondering why I wrote all this ) Bye! :wave: Awww, they (whoever they are) won't let me us all my little people! This post just won't be the same without them.

InLovewithTheLord

28th August 2003, 11:18 AM

I believe you become saved, and by doing so, you do YOUR BEST not to sin. But we are all sinful people. I believe you cant sin,and say "its ok, I will repent later".
But we all still sin.
I believe that you can be saved and "backslide". But you must repent of your sins and ask forgiveness.
A person can be saved and then turn his back on God for whatever reason. Does that mean that if he doesnt repent, he will still go to heaven? I dont think so.
I believe though, that if someone DOES turn his back on God, God will NOT leave him. He will wait patiently for his child to come back to Him. He may distance Himself, but if His child wants to return, God will welcome him back with open arms.

Ben johnson

28th August 2003, 07:34 PM

Welcome to the board, ILWTL!

Excellent post!

:)

semodana

29th August 2003, 12:11 AM

ILWTL You said so eliquently what I feel is correct on this issue. We all try not to sin who are saved but we are human and I do feel God waits for those who backslide to welcome them back when they ask for forgiveness and truely mean it. One thing that is for sure....God knows what is in one's heart.
Bless you
Dana

aggie03

30th August 2003, 02:08 AM

What if they never ask for forgiveness?

explorerofmind

30th August 2003, 03:20 AM

"ask and ye shall recieve" The first step to asking for something specific is to know what it is you want. So mabe the first thing one should ask God is What is being saved from my sins ( or whatever you want to be saved from) like, and do I really want it? I think that when we really pray we send the desires of our hearts to god. How can we express a real desire to God for something we don't even have in our minds?

aggie03

30th August 2003, 11:35 AM

I don't believe that someone who's not in a right relationship with God can ask Him for anything. If we are living our lives in sin continually, will not repent of our sins or have not had the remission of our sins, then we are a sinner. This is what the Bible says about God hearing sinners:

John 9:31 ASV

We know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and do his will, him he heareth.

We have to be a worshipper of God and be doing His will in order for God to hear us. God heareth not the sinners, so they can't ask for forgiveness without repenting and turning again to God.

What if they don't repent?

explorerofmind

30th August 2003, 10:31 PM

And What kind of relationship do we need with God to ask him something?
I remember a story with a guy named Job, and the Devil asked God if he could test Him. What kind of relationship did he have with God? Or how about Kain Didn't he ask God for things? a little mercie even when he was considered perdition? God even answered him.

obediah001

30th August 2003, 10:36 PM

Try looking in His word when you ask; I will betiti s in there.

explorerofmind

30th August 2003, 10:45 PM

I'd like to hear your opinion. That's why I'm explorer of the mind.

explorerofmind

30th August 2003, 10:52 PM

I believe he's right, But what kind of relationship did Kain and Satan have with God. That's called a deep doctrine question

explorerofmind

1st September 2003, 03:23 AM

Sometimes in older english the word 'but' was used in place of except.

admtaylor

1st September 2003, 04:08 AM

"You will KNOW them by their FRUITS".

He was speaking of discerning between "saved" and "unsaved" people. Many people go through life attending church and "fellowshipping" with believers, but are they all truly brethren? That's the question. You have to believe with your mind and heart. Not just understand logically or with book knowledge. When we, as believers, stray from the straight and narrow path God's gentle chastisement brings us in line sooner or later. Why do you think the Lord is depicted as a Shepard? Sheep are simple animals that get lost very easily, the shepard is there to reign them in, guide them back. The faulty point in the once saved not always saved theatre is that this is based on what's seen by us as men. Not what's seen by God in the heart of men. Only God knows the truth behind a mans salvation. We can surely tell in some cases whether a person is saved by their fruit, but we must also consider that those who don't produce fruit may never have been saved in the first place.

explorerofmind

1st September 2003, 05:10 AM

You got us back on track. I'll save the confusing Questions for later.

Ben johnson

1st September 2003, 02:12 PM

The faulty point in the once saved not always saved theatre is that this is based on what's seen by us as men. Not what's seen by God in the heart of men. Only God knows the truth behind a mans salvation. We can surely tell in some cases whether a person is saved by their fruit, but we must also consider that those who don't produce fruit may never have been saved in the first place. All three views of OSAS make the claim of: "If they aren't saved NOW then they never really WERE saved". What's seen by God in the hearts of man --- is faith. We are told that "saving-faith comes from the HEART" (Rom10:10), not from God. God is revealed to each man (Rom1:19), they are without excuse (Rom1:20).

The question in the "OSAS/OSNAS" debate, is: can a SAVED PERSON ever come to UNSAVING-UNBELIEF?

Jesus said: "the rocky-man is he who hears the word, and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root, and when affliction or persecution arises he is caused to stumble (falls away)." Did this man ever BELIEVE? Yes! Can we then say, "he was never SAVED?" I don't think so. What if he had died BEFORE the persecution and affliction? Can anyone say he would not have gone to Heaven?

In Hebrews 3:12-14 it warns BRETHREN, not to "be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, to FALLING AWAY from the living God." In 2Cor13:5 it warns us to "examine ourselves, to see if we are IN THE FAITH". 2Jn1:7-9 warns us against deceivers and antichrists, lest they deceive us to "going too far and not having God". Peter warns us to "be diligent about His calling and election of us, that we not be blind/shortsighted, forgetting our FORMER PURIFICATION, that the gates of Heaven be provided; be on our guard that the error of unprincipled men not cause us to fall from our steadfastness, be diligent that when He returns He finds us spotless and blameless". (2:1:10-12, 2:3:14-17)

James warns BELOVED BRETHREN not to be DECEIVED by sin, because temptation is by our own lust --- lust births sin, sin brings DEATH. (1:14-16) And that "if a brother DOES fall from salvation, you can lead him back, and you'll save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (5:19-20).

Paul warns that SOME will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, so we are to pay close attention to what we've been taught so that we SAVE OURSELVES and those who hear us. (1Tim4:1,16)

Jude warns us to "keep OURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Jesus to eternal life."

Paul rebukes the Galatians, who "WERE running well" (would he have said that about UNSAVED?), but now they are "deceived" (Gal3:1), they are returned to WORKS, they are SEVERED FROM CHRIST and FALLEN FROM GRACE". 5:4-7

Can you point to a single instance in the Bible, where ANYONE believed that a SAVED, could not FALL? Can you find the idea that: "if they aren't saved NOW then they NEVER were!"?

You see, all through Scripture we are admonished to "walk with God" (Col2:6), to "walk in the Spirit" (Rom8:12-14). Following God is a choice; always was (Deut30:15ff), always will be (Rev22:17). From start, to finish.

"We are partners in Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance FIRM UNTIL THE END." Heb3:14 "He will present us before God holy and blameless, IF WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM the Hope of the gospel (not be moved away from JESUS!)". Col1:22-23

I just don't see "OSAS" anywhere in Scripture...

admtaylor

1st September 2003, 05:18 PM

All three views of OSAS make the claim of: "If they aren't saved NOW then they never really WERE saved". What's seen by God in the hearts of man --- is faith. We are told that "saving-faith comes from the HEART" (Rom10:10), not from God. God is revealed to each man (Rom1:19), they are without excuse (Rom1:20).

The question in the "OSAS/OSNAS" debate, is: can a SAVED PERSON ever come to UNSAVING-UNBELIEF?

Jesus said: "the rocky-man is he who hears the word, and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root, and when affliction or persecution arises he is caused to stumble (falls away)." Did this man ever BELIEVE? Yes! Can we then say, "he was never SAVED?" I don't think so. What if he had died BEFORE the persecution and affliction? Can anyone say he would not have gone to Heaven?

In Hebrews 3:12-14 it warns BRETHREN, not to "be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, to FALLING AWAY from the living God." In 2Cor13:5 it warns us to "examine ourselves, to see if we are IN THE FAITH". 2Jn1:7-9 warns us against deceivers and antichrists, lest they deceive us to "going too far and not having God". Peter warns us to "be diligent about His calling and election of us, that we not be blind/shortsighted, forgetting our FORMER PURIFICATION, that the gates of Heaven be provided; be on our guard that the error of unprincipled men not cause us to fall from our steadfastness, be diligent that when He returns He finds us spotless and blameless". (2:1:10-12, 2:3:14-17)

James warns BELOVED BRETHREN not to be DECEIVED by sin, because temptation is by our own lust --- lust births sin, sin brings DEATH. (1:14-16) And that "if a brother DOES fall from salvation, you can lead him back, and you'll save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (5:19-20).

Paul warns that SOME will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, so we are to pay close attention to what we've been taught so that we SAVE OURSELVES and those who hear us. (1Tim4:1,16)

Jude warns us to "keep OURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Jesus to eternal life."

Paul rebukes the Galatians, who "WERE running well" (would he have said that about UNSAVED?), but now they are "deceived" (Gal3:1), they are returned to WORKS, they are SEVERED FROM CHRIST and FALLEN FROM GRACE". 5:4-7

Can you point to a single instance in the Bible, where ANYONE believed that a SAVED, could not FALL? Can you find the idea that: "if they ar