VaYetze ~ (Ya'akov) went out (and found the Stairway to Heaven)

[Sephania]

Trying to keep timely about this.;)

More blessings, straight from Heaven.

Any speculations about the stone? Was it taken with him? Is it the Stone of Scone? Was it really a stone? Would this be atune to the rock in the wilderness? A precursor?

http://www.familybible.org/Parashot/07_VaYetze.htm

[Sephania]

28:20Ya`akov vowed a vow, saying, "If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put on

Reminds me of Matthew 6 where Yeshua tells his talmidm not to worry about what they will wear or eat..........:)


, 28:21so that I come again to my father's house in shalom, and the LORD will be my God, 28:22then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be God's house.


What father? Is he speaking of Isaac here? How is that stone G-ds house?


Of all that you will give me I will surely give the tenth to you."

Who did he give this too? There was no temple built yet, If Shem is Melcheztzedek, he is long dead now.

[debi b]

I too find it interesting an understanding of the concept of tithing without what we have come to connect it to (from Torah perspective and church pov).

[koilias]

Who did he give this too? There was no temple built yet, If Shem is Melcheztzedek, he is long dead now. Funny, the ancient exegetes asked the same thing. The second century BCE book Jubilees spins an elaborate midrash to explain that Yitzhak initiated Levi into the priesthood and Yacob paid him the tithe. Indeed, Levi himself was a "tithe" to HaShem.

Funnier thing is, Jewish tradition since seems to agree with Jubilees.

[koilias]

Here is the tradition (from this website (http://www.vendyljones.org.il/tithing.htm)):



A certain Curthean (Samaritan) attempted to trap Rabbi Mier in a question concerning Jacob's vow to HaShem to give a "tithe of all."

"You Jews teach that Jacob gave a tenth of all to HaShem; yet Jacob had twelve sons: Jacob also said, 'Ephraim and Manasseh are mine.' That makes fourteen sons of Jacob, yet Jacob gave only one son to HaShem and that was Levi," spoke the Curthean, implying that Jacob the Jew had broken his vow to HaShem. "How," continued the Curthean, "can only one of fourteen sons be reconciled as a tithe of fourteen sons?"

Rabbi Mier replied, "How many matriarchs of Jacob's sons were there?"

"Four," answered the Curthean," Leah, Rachel, Bilhah and Zilpah."

'True," answered Rabbi Mier. "Then how many were sanctified by Pid-yon-ha Ben or the Redemption of the Firstborn?

"Four," responded the Curthean.

"True," responded Rabbi Mier. "And what is redeemed as holy need not be sanctified again. Therefore, since there were four firstborn sons sanctified by the redemption of the firstborn, they need not be sanctified by the tithe of Jacob's sons. Hence, Levi, who was not the firstborn of Leah; was given by Jacob of his nine remaining sons: Jacob gave more than one ninth, he gave one tenth of his sons, more than fulfilling his vow to "give a tenth of all."

[koilias]

I know that you "Midrash bah humbug" folks are out there wagging your heads and snickering at the above midrash.

"How could Levi be a priest? Where does it say that he was one?...Those crazy ancient exegetes, my oh my--Midrash phtooey!!"
Aaahhh....But here it is in the crazy book of "Ivrim" in the Brit haHadasha:

Hebrews 7:9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak,

....He received tithes!...Therefore he was a priest.


So deal.:D

[Sephania]

HUH? :confused:

[Sephania]

Koilias, no one here challenged you, but now I will, for you didn't finish the verse.

9 One might go even further and say that Levi, who himself receives tenths, paid a tenth through Avraham; 10 inasmuch as he was still in his ancestor Avraham's body when Malki-Tzedek met him.

Take out the man-made numbering system

One might go even further and say that Levi, who himself receives tenths, paid a tenth through Avraham; inasmuch as he was still in his ancestor Avraham's body when Malki-Tzedek met him.

:)

[koilias]

Koilias, no one here challenged you, but now I will, for you didn't finish the verse.

9 One might go even further and say that Levi, who himself receives tenths, paid a tenth through Avraham; 10 inasmuch as he was still in his ancestor Avraham's body when Malki-Tzedek met him.

Take out the man-made numbering system

One might go even further and say that Levi, who himself receives tenths, paid a tenth through Avraham; inasmuch as he was still in his ancestor Avraham's body when Malki-Tzedek met him.

:)
...Uhm...Which point exactly are you challenging?:scratch:

I'm just pointing out that the author of Hebrews agrees with Jewish tradition that Levi was made a priest, because he says "he receives tithes" (that's the only part I needed to quote)...Thus it is he who received Yacob's tithe (nothing to do with Abraham's tithe to Melkitsedeq--that's a separate incident).

Heh...I'm not "challenging" anyone...Just being cheeky!;)...Cuz I know there are a few heads out there that will challenge the notion that Levi was a priest! :D

[koilias]

...Wait, I think I get your point. The verse can be read to be speaking about Levi the tribe not the person. Hmm...good point!

The Greek I'm reading though seems to be speaking about Levi the person.

A literal translation:

And, as I say, through Abraham, Levi also--(being one to be) receiving tithes--paid tithes.

Plus: Greek tends to render events in the past in the present tense. I think most Greek scholars will agree with me that this is the "historical present"...and so the historical Levi himself is being referred to. The best sense of this verse in English would be:

And, as I say, through Abraham, Levi also--having received tithes--paid tithes.

[Sephania]

...Uhm...Which point exactly are you challenging?:scratch:

I'm just pointing out that the author of Hebrews agrees with Jewish tradition that Levi was made a priest, because he says "he receives tithes" (that's the only part I needed to quote)...Thus it is he who received Yacob's tithe (nothing to do with Abraham's tithe to Melkitsedeq--that's a separate incident).

Heh...I'm not "challenging" anyone...Just being cheeky!...Cuz I know there are a few heads out there that will challenge the notion that Levi was a priest! So deal.:D

Oh.OK, you sounded rather vicious there :eek:

The reason for my challenge ;) was that in the ending of the sentence it explains why Levi recieved tithes, because he was present in Abrahams body, which technically he wasn't as a man's sperm is produced on a daily basis while a woman is given a finite amount of eggs she will have for life. Although this makes it interesting too in light of discussing Yit'zak, as Sarah probably was not only barren but had depleated her "ovarian reserve".

One might go even further and say that Levi, who himself receives tenths, paid a tenth through Avraham; inasmuch as he was still in his ancestor Avraham's body when Malki-Tzedek met him.


Levi's tenth ( Levi himself) was paid not to himself, but to Melchetzedek through his great-grandfather Abraham.

[Sephania]

...Wait, I think I get your point. The verse can be read to be speaking about Levi the tribe not the person. Hmm...good point!

The Greek I'm reading though seems to be speaking about Levi the person.

A literal translation:

And, as I say, through Abraham, Levi also--(being one to be) receiving tithes--paid tithes.

Plus: Greek tends to render events in the past in the present tense. I think most Greek scholars will agree with me that this is the "historical present"...and so the historical Levi himself is being referred to. The best sense of this verse in English would be:

And, as I say, through Abraham, Levi also--having received tithes--paid tithes.
Yes, I think I answered this in the above post, but it could be also speaking of the tribe to come, especially when breaking up the sentence,


One might go even further and say that Levi, who himself receives tenths, paid a tenth through Avraham;

But it explains how this is possible, by finishing the sentence.

inasmuch as he was still in his ancestor Avraham's body when Malki-Tzedek met him.

His bill was paid before he got there! :) :D

[Sephania]

A Stone set up for G-ds house. Was this in any way incorporated into Solomons Temple? And if the stairway to heaven was in Beth-El why did the L-rD have his holy mountain , a place for his name in Jerusalem? Was the stone taken there? Was it captured by surrounding enemies? We know that the ark was captured in Davids time and returned practically empty................hmmmmmmm

[koilias]

Oh.OK, you sounded rather vicious there :eek:
No I didn't! Hence the smiley!:)


The reason for my challenge ;) was that in the ending of the sentence it explains why Levi recieved tithes, because he was present in Abrahams body,

...Levi's tenth ( Levi himself) was paid not to himself, but to Melchetzedek through his great-grandfather Abraham.

Very creative way to read that! ;)

I thought the author of Hebrews simply had in mind the precedence of Melkitsedeq over Levi, since he, Levi (in a way of speaking) paid him tithes.