Acts 15:29 & 21:25 - What is expected of the Gentiles? [Archive]

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insaneinthebrain

22nd November 2004, 07:02 PM

I hope this doesn't stir up too much trouble. ;)

Anyway, here are the verses with some context:

15:22 Then (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5119&version=nas) it seemed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1380&version=nas) good (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1380&version=nas) to the apostles (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=652&version=nas) and the elders (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4245&version=nas), with the whole (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3650&version=nas) church (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1577&version=nas), to choose (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1586&version=nas) men (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=435&version=nas) from among (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1537&version=nas) them to send (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3992&version=nas) to Antioch (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=490&version=nas) with Paul (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3972&version=nas) and Barnabas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=921&version=nas) --Judas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2455&version=nas) called (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2564&version=nas) Barsabbas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=923&version=nas), and Silas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4609&version=nas), leading (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2233&version=nas) men (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=435&version=nas) among (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=nas) the brethren (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=80&version=nas),
15:23 and they sent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1125&version=nas) this letter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1125&version=nas) by them, "The apostles (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=652&version=nas) and the brethren (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=80&version=nas) who are elders (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4245&version=nas), to the brethren (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=80&version=nas) in Antioch (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=490&version=nas) and Syria (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4947&version=nas) and Cilicia (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2791&version=nas) who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=nas) are from the Gentiles (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1484&version=nas), greetings (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5463&version=nas).
15:24 we have heard (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=191&version=nas) that some (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5100&version=nas) of our number (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1473&version=nas) to whom (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=nas) we gave (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1291&version=nas) no (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3756&version=nas) instruction (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1291&version=nas) have disturbed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5015&version=nas) you with their words (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3056&version=nas), unsettling (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=384&version=nas) your souls (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5590&version=nas),
15:25 seemed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1380&version=nas) good (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1380&version=nas) to us, having become (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1096&version=nas) of one (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3661&version=nas) mind (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3661&version=nas), to select (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1586&version=nas) men (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=435&version=nas) to send (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3992&version=nas) to you with our beloved (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=27&version=nas) Barnabas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=921&version=nas) and Paul (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3972&version=nas),
15:26 who have risked (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3860&version=nas) their lives (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5590&version=nas) for the name (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3686&version=nas) of our Lord (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2962&version=nas) Jesus (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2424&version=nas) Christ (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=nas).
15:27 we have sent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=649&version=nas) Judas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2455&version=nas) and Silas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4609&version=nas), who themselves (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=nas) will also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas) report (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=518&version=nas) the same (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=nas) things (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=nas) by word (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3056&version=nas) of mouth.
15:28 it seemed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1380&version=nas) good (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1380&version=nas) to the Holy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=40&version=nas) Spirit (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4151&version=nas) and to us to lay (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2007&version=nas) upon you no (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3367&version=nas) greater (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4183&version=nas) burden (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=922&version=nas) than (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4133&version=nas) these (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) essentials (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1876&version=nas):
15:29 you abstain (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=568&version=nas) from things (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1494&version=nas) sacrificed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1494&version=nas) to idols (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1494&version=nas) and from blood (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=129&version=nas) and from things (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4156&version=nas) strangled (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4156&version=nas) and from fornication (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4202&version=nas); if you keep (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1301&version=nas) yourselves (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1438&version=nas) free (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1301&version=nas) from such (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3779&version=nas) things (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=nas), you will do (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4238&version=nas) well (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2095&version=nas). Farewell (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4517&version=nas)."
15:30 So (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3767&version=nas) when they were sent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=630&version=nas) away (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=630&version=nas), they went (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2718&version=nas) down (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2718&version=nas) to Antioch (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=490&version=nas); and having gathered (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4863&version=nas) the congregation (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4128&version=nas) together (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4863&version=nas), they delivered (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1929&version=nas) the letter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1992&version=nas).
15:31 When they had read (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=314&version=nas) it, they rejoiced (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5463&version=nas) because (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1909&version=nas) of its encouragement (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3874&version=nas).
15:32 Judas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2455&version=nas) and Silas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4609&version=nas), also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas) being (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1510&version=nas) prophets (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4396&version=nas) themselves (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=nas), encouraged (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3870&version=nas) and strengthened (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1991&version=nas) the brethren (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=80&version=nas) with a lengthy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4183&version=nas) message (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3056&version=nas).
15:33 After they had spent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=nas) time (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5550&version=nas) there, they were sent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=630&version=nas) away (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=630&version=nas) from the brethren (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=80&version=nas) in peace (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1515&version=nas) to those (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=nas) who had sent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=649&version=nas) them out.
15:34 remain[/u] (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1961&version=nas) there (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=847&version=nas).]
15:35 But Paul (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3972&version=nas) and Barnabas (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=921&version=nas) stayed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1304&version=nas) in Antioch (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=490&version=nas), teaching (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1321&version=nas) and preaching (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2097&version=nas) with many (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4183&version=nas) others (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2087&version=nas) also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas), the word (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3056&version=nas) of the Lord (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2962&version=nas).
______________________________________________________

21:23 "Therefore (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3767&version=nas) do (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=nas) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=nas) that we tell (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3004&version=nas) you. We have four (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5064&version=nas) men (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=435&version=nas) who are under (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2192&version=nas) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1909&version=nas) a vow (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2171&version=nas);
21:24 take (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3880&version=nas) them and purify (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=48&version=nas) yourself along (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4862&version=nas) with them, and pay (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1159&version=nas) their expenses (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1159&version=nas) so (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2443&version=nas) that they may shave their heads (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2776&version=nas); and all (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=nas) will know (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1097&version=nas) that there is nothing (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3762&version=nas) to the things which (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=nas) they have been told (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2727&version=nas) about (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4012&version=nas) you, but that you yourself (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=nas) also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=nas) walk (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4748&version=nas) orderly (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4748&version=nas), keeping (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5442&version=nas) the Law (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3551&version=nas).
21:25 "But [b]concerning (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4012&version=nas) the Gentiles (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1484&version=nas) who have believed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4100&version=nas), we wrote (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1989&version=nas), having decided (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2919&version=nas) that they should abstain (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5442&version=nas) from meat (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=nas) sacrificed (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1494&version=nas) to idols (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1494&version=nas) and from blood (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=129&version=nas) and from what is strangled (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4156&version=nas) and from fornication (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4202&version=nas)."

So, I ask:
1) What is expected of the Gentiles?
2) Is it wrong if they go beyond those expectations?
3) Was salvation ever intended for the Gentiles? (this question is a bit trickier than it appears ;))

Zacharias

22nd November 2004, 07:09 PM

3) Was salvation ever intended for the Gentiles? (this question is a bit trickier than it appears ;))

Acts 10
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."
15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."
16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three[1] men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."
21Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"
22The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

If this doesn't mean that salvation is intended for Gentiles, then it means that pigs are kosher. You choose.

Shimshon

22nd November 2004, 07:15 PM

These four things (Acts 15:29) don't replace Torah. They are only the begining of leading them into the fulness of such. i.e Yeshua HaTorat Chayim. The living Torah.

If only we had to follow just these four things. How foolish to think this replaces Torah and Emet with these four simple guides. They are an outstreached hand, a help to those who are knocked down and out. Drops of water to the man dehydrated. Or would you give him a four course meal and stuff him as if readying him for battle ...on his death bed?

b'shalom
Shimshon

Shimshon

22nd November 2004, 07:28 PM

Acts

11:18 On hearing these things, they stopped objecting and began to praise God, saying, "This means that God has enabled the Goyim as well to do t'shuvah and have life!"

the Goyim were "to do T'shuvah and live". The same message for Jew and Goy.

26:20 On the contrary, I announced first in Dammesek, then in Yerushalayim and throughout Y'hudah, and also to the Goyim, that they should turn from their sins to God and then do deeds consistent with that repentance.

Seem to me the message was the same to both Y'hudah and the Goyim.

Shaul also states numerous times that he was sent to the Goyim. Why? Shaul never showed a distinction between the calling of those in Y'hudah and the Goyim. Both were told to "turn from sins to G-d". Just the Goyim had to have it spelled out to them in the simplest form. Like telling your kid not to touch his brother. So he has his friend beat him up and then tells you. Hey I didn't lay a hand on him!!!. Did he follow the rules completely? He "didn't touch him"? get what I mean? Are they only to follow the 4 in Acts yet allowed to murder? Hey I didn't "strangle" him!!! And I didn't eat the blood!!

b,shalom
shimshon

koilias

22nd November 2004, 07:38 PM

Acts

Are they only to follow the 4 in Acts yet allowed to murder? Hey I didn't "strangle" him!!! And I didn't eat the blood!!
"Refrain from blood" means "Refrain from the shedding of blood"...it is an injunction against murder! See Gen. 9:4-6.

Shimshon

22nd November 2004, 07:43 PM

"Refrain from blood" means "Refrain from the shedding of blood"...it is an injunction against murder! See Gen. 9:4-6.
Duely noted Koilias, Todah. Do you see the four as a general overview of Torah then? A sort of Torah for beginers? That all four are general overviews of the detailed Mitzvot defined in Torah?

b'shalom
Shimshon

koilias

22nd November 2004, 07:49 PM

1) What is expected of the Gentiles?

To follow these four as a basic requirement for fellowship and dealings with the Jewish community.

2) Is it wrong if they go beyond those expectations?

...Under no compulsion, except for these four...To compell would mean anything additional will not be counted to them as mitzvah...But, yes, the general expectation would be that they would slowly adopt the 613 until eventually their children could be brought up as Jews.

3) Was salvation ever intended for the Gentiles? (this question is a bit trickier than it appears ;))
Never ever from Adam to today was "salvation" (fellowship with HaShem) withheld from the gentiles. Noah was a gentile.;) So was Rahab, Ruth, etc...

koilias

22nd November 2004, 07:52 PM

Duely noted Koilias, Todah. Do you see the four as a general overview of Torah then? A sort of Torah for beginers? That all four are general overviews of the detailed Mitzvot defined in Torah?

b'shalom
ShimshonA "yes" to all three. Eventually, the search to "fulfill" these leads to further derivation and application of the rest. The beit-din was extremely sharp!;)

Note that they also have to fulfill Yeshua's commandment "Love one another"...which is a distillation of all Torah and sits at the pinnacle.

On the more practical side, for Jews to have fellowship with gentiles necessitates these commandments. So the four are given really for the benefit of Jews....so that they can have the most communal dealings with gentiles as possible and without reservation. Thus advancing the Kingdom in as much haste as possible.

Shimshon

22nd November 2004, 07:56 PM

koilias

22nd November 2004, 08:15 PM

Yes this view is what I have found throughout my studies as well. Appears to be the accepted reasoning for the 4 mitzvot given here in Acts 15.

I just love how practical and even-handed and sober the halakha of the Jerusalem beit-din was. See that's what halakha is: translating Torah for real life...They really kept foremost in their mind always that the right spirit of halakha is to lead the community to fellowship with HaShem and fellowship with one's neighbor and to show justice to the stranger. Keeping this in view leads to the correct spirit of halakha. People who think halakha serves no other reasoning but its own are completely missing the boat. On the other hand the Christian aversion to halakha shows that they themselves already approach Biblical revelation as an end to itself, so they too miss the spirit of Halakha, although they give it a different name.

insaneinthebrain

22nd November 2004, 08:24 PM

If this doesn't mean that salvation is intended for Gentiles, then it means that pigs are kosher. You choose.
You'd be amazed at how often I, and probably a number of people in this forum, have ended up arguing that Peter's vision has nothing to do with food. Mind boggling, really. ;)

Shimshon

22nd November 2004, 08:55 PM

You'd be amazed at how often I, and probably a number of people in this forum, have ended up arguing that Peter's vision has nothing to do with food. Mind boggling, really. ;)
So pigs are kosher now? ;)

"We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests."

a "righteous and G-d fearing man" "respected by all the Jewish people" I bet he followed Kosher law as well. He was respected even though he was a Roman soldier. What Jews would respect someone who did not follow Torah?

But my point is. What did Kefa have to say to them? It's o.k. to eat pork now? or It's o.k. for you to be counted along with Yisrael now? (salvation or kashrut mitzvah?) I see the vision as about salvation...not Kosher laws being nullified.

b'shalom
Shimshon

visionary

22nd November 2004, 09:00 PM

Another interesting facet, is even though "they" point to those verses saying all meat is now kosher, do they eat strangulated blood filled flesh? So which of the four do they follow, the one that they don't eat anything given to idols? What about the rest?

talmidim

22nd November 2004, 10:44 PM

Shalom All,

Purposely avoiding the "pigs are now kosher" insanity, I would like to point out some of the things that "jump" out at me in this thread. It has always been my understanding that meat or pollutions or food has always indicated the participation aspect of idolotry. It points toward Messiahs instruction about putting the Father first in our hearts and actions. The latter three point to Yeshua's second command. These three, that we should not commit crimes of blood (against others), of fornication (against self) or consuming the meat of animals strangled (against life) are sins that represent the second portion of the "ten commandments".

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
I am particularly aware that koilias and shimshon have pointed out that these four requirements are bare minimum for gentiles to have fellowship with the Jews. It seems to me though that 21:15 is the confirmation that most Christians deny. That is; more is expected of the gentile believer in order to find fulfillment in a relationship with HaShem and each other.

It's just my opinion, but I'm sticking to it! :D

b'Shalom

Bon

23rd November 2004, 01:42 AM

My understanding of Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye Yahweh, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:19-21 Wherefor my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to Yahweh: But that we write unto them, that they ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, AND FROM FORNICATION, AND FROM THINGS STRANGLED, AND FROM BLOOD. (21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The discussion that was in progress before these verses, was whether Gentiles HAD TO BE CIRCUMCISED. At this time the Hebrews had come to believe, erroneously, that the blood of their circumcision was the blood that sealed the covenant with Yahweh. Paul taught that it is Yahshua's blood that seals the covenant, and so circumcision is no longer necessary; just as the animal sacrifices are no longer necessary. Circumcission was being referred to as a "yoke" not Yahweh's Law (Torah). So, the group agreed not to trouble the Gentile with cirumcision, but to write to them about FOUR MAJOR THINGS; and then referred to the fact that the new gentile believers would be hearing the teaching of Moses every Sabbath. So, the Gentile believers were expected to be keeping the Sabbath and learning Torah (Yahwehs teaching, guidance, and direction). Verse 21 is rarely quoted along with verse 20, because it deosn't fit into the "no Law" doctrine believed by many christians.

In their previous pagan worship, the gentiles had idols and temple prostitutes. They were being told right up front that this would not be aceptable worship before Yahweh. It was felt that they should also be informed about dietary laws where animals must not be strangled, but cut for the blood to be drained from the body. And, they must not drink the blood.

So, in summary, NO IDOLS, NO TEMPLE PROSTITUTES, KEEP THE DEITARY COMMANDMENTS (Lev 11), DRINK NO BLOOD, AND LEARN OF THE LAW EACH SABBATH.

Shalom from Bon

talmidim

23rd November 2004, 01:56 AM

Nice Bon, nice.

koilias

23rd November 2004, 04:57 AM

So, in summary, NO IDOLS, NO TEMPLE PROSTITUTES, KEEP THE DEITARY COMMANDMENTS (Lev 11), DRINK NO BLOOD, AND LEARN OF THE LAW EACH SABBATH.
...Agreed. Still, we must mind the exact halakha of our sages. Sorry to split hairs, but the above statement should read:

"No idolatry, no, not even the meat dedicated to idols,
...no sexual immorality (of any kind),
...no live flesh, no, not even strangled flesh,
...no shedding of blood,
...and learn the law each Shabbat (so that your descendants may be circumcized eventually)."

These things are just that important to understand.

...But nicely put Talmidim and Bon.

Yes Talmidim I also agree the above four lead next to the ten. I see you are well attuned to the method of our sages.;)

talmidim

24th November 2004, 04:31 AM

Yes Talmidim I also agree the above four lead next to the ten. I see you are well attuned to the method of our sages.;)Thanks koilias, but I am just learning here. I have the benifit of some adept teachers from which to garner understanding .

I am concerned though, how some try to tie them to the "seven", but isn't that the time that we know that our "redemption draweth nigh"? Troubling and comforting all at once...

Sephania

24th November 2004, 12:16 PM

but won't do no towel snapping.;) I would however like to add a few other things I didn't see anyone mention.

15:32 Judah and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren, with a lengthy message.
Here's something else others tend to miss, the prophets here, spoke extensively to them in this "lengthy message", giving detail to these "4".

I believe that one of those details given in regard to the four was in explaining that the "abstainng from blood" meant not only to not murder, but also to not eat any manner of blood ( this coure in full Kashering probably took them months to explain ;) ). And it would also include the family purity laws where you are not to touch a woman or things touched by her during her monthly ordeal with blood ( for there is life in that also and death).

This would also tie in to the sexual immorality course and probably last another semester. :D

P_G

24th November 2004, 01:54 PM

I think that the council of Jerusalem when presented with the problem of "what to do with the gentile beleivers" Had a decision to make.

Y'shua's words were to go and make disciples of them and Peters vision re-enforced this. However there was a HUGE cultural rift between jew and gentile.

The things that they said to avoid for sure were absolutely Torah
And the most centric things at that time to Jewish culture.
Kind of like "Look we can't get past these things if they are doing them"

Sort of on the order of people commiting polygamy in the US
(not the best example I know)

It does not releive the gentile from growing and following Torah
It is a starting point so that they could be marginally acceptable to their Jewish teachers

PG

Sephania

7th December 2004, 12:29 PM

does anyone else here agree these included the Laws of Niddah?

Buccaneer

8th December 2004, 02:02 AM

In responce to the gentile salvation thing...AHEM:

Thus says the Lord: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, for My salvation is about to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbath, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.Do not let the son of a foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord speak, saying, "The Lord has utterly separated me from His people." . . . Even [him] I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

talmidim

8th December 2004, 03:29 AM

*snip*
So, I ask:
1) What is expected of the Gentiles?
2) Is it wrong if they go beyond those expectations?
3) Was salvation ever intended for the Gentiles? (this question is a bit trickier than it appears ;))1) The same things that are expected of the Jews.
2) Only if they do not go far enough.
3) From the very beginning.

visionary

8th December 2004, 09:53 AM

ShirChadash

8th December 2004, 01:44 PM

Isaiah 56:
1 Thus says the Lord: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."

3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the Lord Speak, saying, "The Lord has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree." 4 For thus says the Lord: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, 5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=isa+56&version=nkj&showtools=0#F67)an everlasting name That shall not be cut off. 6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants-- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant-- 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices Will be accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations." 8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, "Yet I will gather to him Others besides those who are gathered to him."

visionary

8th December 2004, 02:07 PM

Thank you....

Sephania

8th December 2004, 03:35 PM

Is anyone able to answer my question? :)

visionary

8th December 2004, 05:23 PM

does anyone else here agree these included the Laws of Niddah? : as long as everyone understands that the woman is in charge of her Niddah.

http://www.milknhoney.co.il/holy/19.html

Sephania

8th December 2004, 05:39 PM

:scratch: who is everyone?

blessed2

8th December 2004, 06:47 PM

1 Corinthians 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1COR+3:2&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on&interface=print)
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Hebrews 5:12 (http://www.biblegateway.org/cgi-bin/bible?passage=HEB+5:12&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on&interface=print)
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Could this explain?
The gentiles did not have the foundation of the Torah as Israel did so the teachings would be like strong meat and they unable to digest it being new to the faith and like babe's.
Therefore they would need the milk of the word to begin with but like our own babies,
were expected to grow and then graduate into more and more solid and stong fare.

Valid Name

9th December 2004, 06:27 AM

Greetings Blessed2,

If I may interject my feelings on those particular scriptures;

If one were to be taught Torah, would they understand? While there may be many physical lessons to learn, there are also many spiritual. Simple physical commands are not hard even for a young child.

1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal (Physical), even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? Peace,
Valid Name

visionary

9th December 2004, 09:04 AM

As you know in the Fables told, it was the moral of the story that was the important part. So it is with the Torah, it is the spiritual aspect of the story that is where you find your lessons. That doesn't change the fact that the physical walk is where the lesson is lived.

Sephania

9th December 2004, 12:24 PM

visionary

9th December 2004, 12:27 PM

:thumbsup: Excelent! I believe this is true, and sadly today many Christians do not want to be weaned, the L-rd may have to do the boogyman on the breast thing with them!:eek: ;) ;) :thumbsup:

visionary

12th December 2004, 03:30 PM

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Which means it is a better covenant than this Noahide laws that is gaining favor in the politial arenas around the world. What is expected of the Gentiles is for them to grow from the milk of the Word into the meat and if they do not then they will miss out in the understanding neccessary for the standing up for Yeshua and all the blessings that come with it.

visionary

5th March 2006, 01:07 PM

bumpy bump bump

Wags

6th March 2006, 01:03 AM

Wow Visionary - you are really on a kick with bumping up really old (but still interesting) threads.... whats up?

visionary

6th March 2006, 10:55 AM

just reminising

Tishri1

6th March 2006, 01:16 PM

A "yes" to all three. Eventually, the search to "fulfill" these leads to further derivation and application of the rest. The beit-din was extremely sharp!;)

Note that they also have to fulfill Yeshua's commandment "Love one another"...which is a distillation of all Torah and sits at the pinnacle.

On the more practical side, for Jews to have fellowship with gentiles necessitates these commandments. So the four are given really for the benefit of Jews....so that they can have the most communal dealings with gentiles as possible and without reservation. Thus advancing the Kingdom in as much haste as possible.Amen! I totally agree and can see it in my own life when it comes to fellowship....it is alot easier to have a non kosher friend come to my house for dinner than to go to their house, or pot luck:P at a church could be a problem as compared to oneg at congregation...And to top it off many of the Gentile dishes were prepared with kosher meat that was sacrificed and offered to Idols for a blessing before sold and prepared to eat:sick:...What Jew could stomach that! At least I don't have to worry about that:doh:Oh yeh I do....the Chinese Restaurants and their Donut Shops all have little budah statues which they religiously pass all thier food by before they serve it to you:eek: We just can't stop this Pagan Train can we? What ever happend before will happen again...

stone

21st June 2006, 04:20 PM

bump

visionary

21st June 2006, 08:54 PM

I am glad to see you agree this thread is worthy of ressurrection to life.

So many are still kept in the dark and fed....milk.. so does that make mushrooms kosher?

Sephania

21st June 2006, 09:06 PM

Amen! I totally agree and can see it in my own life when it comes to fellowship....it is alot easier to have a non kosher friend come to my house for dinner than to go to their house, or pot luck:P at a church could be a problem as compared to oneg at congregation...And to top it off many of the Gentile dishes were prepared with kosher meat that was sacrificed and offered to Idols for a blessing before sold and prepared to eat:sick:...What Jew could stomach that! At least I don't have to worry about that:doh:Oh yeh I do....the Chinese Restaurants and their Donut Shops all have little budah statues which they religiously pass all thier food by before they serve it to you:eek: We just can't stop this Pagan Train can we? What ever happend before will happen again...Reminds me quite a while ago we were in a upscale Chinese resturant, before we stopped going out altogether. As you walked in the place which was an old stone mill of some sorts, converted to this chinese palace of eating, you first walked by this golden buddah statue about two feet tall and set at eye height when standing, then you walked by the bar to get to the dining room. The barroom was dark except for a light eminating out from under the bar, and a lighted picture of the 'last supper' over the back of the bar. Some of the 'attendees' to that 'seder' were Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, etc. It gave me creeps the whole time we were there. By the end ( and the food was very good) I decided we would never go there again.

It makes you wonder how many believers buy Chinese take-put and bring boxes of food into their homes in boxes that have red dragons all over them?;)