Purgatory?

[gtsecc]

What do you believe about Purgatory?
Does this teaching come up much in teachings or sermons at your parish?

[TomUK]

Have never heard a sermon on it, but think that we all have to be purified by fire after we die though don't know if that's in a purgatorial (most probably a made up word :D) setting or otherwise. When you begin talking about purgatory it gets very difficult for two reasons:
1. Catholics believe it and therefore it must be wrong (based on previous conversations with mroe evangelical friends)
2. It's dealing with an understanding of time which is totally outside of our understanding of it, and therefore makes it very difficult for people to perceive what it is you're talking about.

[benedictine]

According to the Articles of Religion, we do not believe in Purgatory. However please remember that in many Anglican Provinces, the AoR do not apply. Also, there are some Anglo-Catholics that believe in it.(I do not.)

One explanation I have heard from my Roman Catholic friends in CFTeens is that is possibly is a state of existance or a transitional state , rather than an actual place, and that one could concieveable pass through in an instant.

[gtsecc]

According to the Articles of Religion, we do not believe in Purgatory. However please remember that in many Anglican Provinces, the AoR do not apply. Also, there are some Anglo-Catholics that believe in it.(I do not.)

One explanation I have heard from my Roman Catholic friends in CFTeens is that is possibly is a state of existance or a transitional state , rather than an actual place, and that one could concieveable pass through in an instant.

XXXII Of Purgatory.


The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

These are historical, not binding or even suggested documents, for Episcopalians, and further more, I believe we all accept some idea about Purgatory, just not "Romish" ideas that works on earth can free someone else's soul from Purgatory.

[masuwerte]

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These are historical, not binding or even suggested documents, for Episcopalians, and further more, I believe we all accept some idea about Purgatory, just not "Romish" ideas that works on earth can free someone else's soul from Purgatory.
C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" was about souls in a purgatory of sorts.

[PaladinValer]

The Scriptures state that nothing imperfect can exist in heaven.
Holy Tradition, which includes the Creeds, state that the Resurrection happens before the Judgment.

It would seem that all souls go to a place where they would be purified. That place is, according to Scripture, sheol, the abode of the dead.

[benedictine]

Hey, Paladin Valer, just out of curiosity, could you point me to the scripture reference about sheol?

[gtsecc]

Ge 37:35 - All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and said, "No, I shall go down to sheol to my son, mourning." Thus his father wept for him.





Ge 42:38 - But he said, "My son shall not go down with you, for his brother is dead, and he only is left. If harm should befall him on the journey that you are to make, you would bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to sheol."





Ge 44:29 - If you take this one also from me, and harm befalls him, you will bring down my gray hairs in sorrow to sheol.'





Ge 44:31 - when he sees that the lad is not with us, he will die; and your servants will bring down the gray hairs of your servant our father with sorrow to sheol.





Nu 16:30 - But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth, and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD."





Nu 16:33 - So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.





De 32:22 - For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.





1Sa 2:6 - The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to sheol and raises up.





2Sa 22:6 - the cords of sheol entangled me, the snares of death confronted me.





1Ki 2:6 - Act therefore according to your wisdom, but do not let his gray head go down to sheol in peace.





1Ki 2:9 - Now therefore hold him not guiltless, for you are a wise man; you will know what you ought to do to him, and you shall bring his gray head down with blood to sheol."





Job 7:9 - As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to sheol does not come up;





Job 11:8 - It is higher than heaven--what can you do? Deeper than sheol--what can you know?





Job 14:13 - Oh that thou wouldest hide me in sheol, that thou wouldest conceal me until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!





Job 17:13 - If I look for sheol as my house, if I spread my couch in darkness,





Job 17:16 - Will it go down to the bars of sheol? Shall we descend together into the dust?"





Job 21:13 - They spend their days in prosperity, and in peace they go down to sheol.





Job 24:19 - Drought and heat snatch away the snow waters; so does sheol those who have sinned.





Job 26:6 - sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.





Ps 6:5 - For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in sheol who can give thee praise?





Ps 9:17 - The wicked shall depart to sheol, all the nations that forget God.





Ps 16:10 - For thou dost not give me up to sheol, or let thy godly one see the Pit.





Ps 18:5 - the cords of sheol entangled me, the snares of death confronted me.





Ps 30:3 - O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from sheol, restored me to life from among those gone down to the Pit.





Ps 31:17 - Let me not be put to shame, O LORD, for I call on thee; let the wicked be put to shame, let them go dumbfounded to sheol.





Ps 49:14 - Like sheep they are appointed for sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; straight to the grave they descend, and their form shall waste away; sheol shall be their home.





Ps 49:15 - But God will ransom my soul from the power of sheol, for he will receive me. [Selah]





Ps 55:15 - Let death come upon them; let them go down to sheol alive; let them go away in terror into their graves.





Ps 86:13 - For great is thy steadfast love toward me; thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of sheol.





Ps 88:3 - For my soul is full of troubles, and my life draws near to sheol.





Ps 89:48 - What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of sheol? [Selah]





Ps 116:3 - The snares of death encompassed me; the pangs of sheol laid hold on me; I suffered distress and anguish.





Ps 139:8 - If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in sheol, thou art there!





Ps 141:7 - As a rock which one cleaves and shatters on the land, so shall their bones be strewn at the mouth of sheol.





Pr 1:12 - like sheol let us swallow them alive and whole, like those who go down to the Pit;





Pr 5:5 - Her feet go down to death; her steps follow the path to sheol;





Pr 7:27 - Her house is the way to sheol, going down to the chambers of death.





Pr 9:18 - But he does not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of sheol.





Pr 15:11 - sheol and Abaddon lie open before the LORD, how much more the hearts of men!





Pr 15:24 - The wise man's path leads upward to life, that he may avoid sheol beneath.





Pr 23:14 - If you beat him with the rod you will save his life from sheol.





Pr 27:20 - sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied, and never satisfied are the eyes of man.





Pr 30:16 - sheol, the barren womb, the earth ever thirsty for water, and the fire which never says, "Enough."





Ec 9:10 - Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in sheol, to which you are going.





Isa 5:14 - Therefore sheol has enlarged its appetite and opened its mouth beyond measure, and the nobility of Jerusalem and her multitude go down, her throng and he who exults in her.





Isa 7:11 - "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as sheol or high as heaven."





Isa 14:9 - sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come, it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.





Isa 14:11 - Your pomp is brought down to sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering.





Isa 14:15 - But you are brought down to sheol, to the depths of the Pit.





Isa 28:15 - Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with sheol we have an agreement; when the overwhelming scourge passes through it will not come to us; for we have made lies our refuge, and in falsehood we have taken shelter";





Isa 28:18 - Then your covenant with death will be annulled, and your agreement with sheol will not stand; when the overwhelming scourge passes through you will be beaten down by it.





Isa 38:10 - I said, In the noontide of my days I must depart; I am consigned to the gates of sheol for the rest of my years.





Isa 38:18 - For sheol cannot thank thee, death cannot praise thee; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for thy faithfulness.





Isa 57:9 - You journeyed to Molech with oil and multiplied your perfumes; you sent your envoys far off, and sent down even to sheol.





Eze 31:15 - "Thus says the Lord GOD: When it goes down to sheol I will make the deep mourn for it, and restrain its rivers, and many waters shall be stopped; I will clothe Lebanon in gloom for it, and all the trees of the field shall faint because of it.





Eze 31:16 - I will make the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to sheol with those who go down to the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, will be comforted in the nether world.





Eze 31:17 - They also shall go down to sheol with it, to those who are slain by the sword; yea, those who dwelt under its shadow among the nations shall perish.





Eze 32:21 - The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'





Eze 32:27 - And they do not lie with the fallen mighty men of old who went down to sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose shields are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living.





Ho 13:14 - Shall I ransom them from the power of sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death? O Death, where are your plagues? O sheol, where is your destruction? Compassion is hid from my eyes.





Am 9:2 - "Though they dig into sheol, from there shall my hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down.





Jon 2:2 - saying, "I called to the LORD, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of sheol I cried, and thou didst hear my voice.





Hab 2:5 - Moreover, wine is treacherous; the arrogant man shall not abide. His greed is as wide as sheol; like death he has never enough. He gathers for himself all nations, and collects as his own all peoples."

[PaladinValer]

In the NT, sheol is referred to as "hades;" the two are interchangable, although according to both Holy Tradition and ancient Jewish belief, sheol was indeed divided into two sections: "paradice" was where the souls of the righteous, be they Jew or Gentile, would dwell after death. It was a peaceful existance; no pain or anguish, and they would live in the greatest hope of the Resurrection. The other half was "hades," which was the realm of the unrighteous souls, be they Jew or Gentile. Many souls; the truly arrogant and unrepentent, would suffer as if by fire. The rest, along with the arrogant, even if they wish to repent, would have to deal with the great darkness and dispair, for they know where they were.

Jesus, according to Scripture, went into paradice upon death, and ministered to the righteous dead, be they anyone from the good thief on the cross to David, Isaiah, and the prophets and martyrs and any righteous Jew or Gentile. The Jews and the Gentiles, who, again according to Holy Tradition, knew of the Savior from the Sybil, would recognize and accept their Messiah. These would go to heaven upon the Resurrection.

Jesus also went to hades, to minister to those there as well. They would see the Messiah, the one they all would recognize, so that they would know that He had indeed come. The arrogant would still reject Him, but as for those who wished repentance, I do not know. It is possible that they may, after seeing with their own selves the Lord, fully repent, and upon the Resurrection when Jesus comes again, might be forgiven if they accept Jesus as Messiah. I do not know; I am not God and it isn't my or anyone's business to assume the fate and final destination of anyone (with the exception of the righteous above, as any soul that dwells in paradice is of the Elect, although no one can tell who they are on Earth).

According to Holy Tradition, we will descend into the dead just as Jesus did upon death. We will be given a "preliminary judgment," which will determine what half of sheol in which we will wait in. The primary function is to pray; pray for oneself, one's fellow dead, the living, and for the Second Coming to come quickly, so that they may be Judged. With their prayers, the Elect and those in hades who will be saved will experience their souls' regeneration; their piety, faith, and repentance grants them the Grace of God (Communion of Saints). But those who will not be saved, their souls will decay into a state of emaciation; still existing but will become to the point that there is no hope for them. It is they who will, upon the Resurrection, dwell in hell, for that is what they chose; to live for eternity without the Grace or Presence of God.

[AveMaria]

I LOVE this forum, I always learn so much here!

[gtsecc]

But those who will not be saved, their souls will decay into a state of emaciation; still existing but will become to the point that there is no hope for them. It is they who will, upon the Resurrection, dwell in hell, for that is what they chose; to live for eternity without the Grace or Presence of God.Smeagol / Gollum

[PaladinValer]

Yes; that is where that idea came from :)

[ahab]

If I may for a change say a big thanks to PaladinValer for his last but one post. That is a very good and informative post for me also.

:thumbsup:

[julian the apostate]

i always thought this from corinthians was pretty clear about purgatory:

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.