Evening Prayer liturgy...

[SirTimothy]

Our highly conservative evangelical youth leader is running a youth service at the anglican church which the youth band is playing for, and I'm pushing for having some liturgy in it. Strongly pushing. I've had enough disagreements with him already on various minor points of doctrine I'm starting to get tired of his theology.
So I was wondering, is there any canon minimum liturgy required for it to be called evening prayer, that I can show him?
Am not happy with him on this point--Evening prayer without basic liturgy seems rather pointless to me, even if it IS led by the youth.

Timothy

[PaladinValer]

It doesn't sound like this guy is Anglican. If he was, he'd realize that the Anglican Church has specific liturgies for Evening and Morning Prayer.

Without these liturgies (which can be practiced without the Eucharist, if desired), then the label of "Evening/Morning Prayer" should not be used.

[SirTimothy]

He isn't anglican. He's Reformed Presbyterian--our youth group is interchurch. I like the guy, dislike his theology. I'm mainly trying to do this, so he HAS to preach a 10-15 minute, typical evening service length sermon, rather than 30 minutes of sheer boredom like when he preached at the non-denom church I attend. Especially if he does what he did last time--two readings and then completely ignoring the salient bits of the passage, and instead bringing rubbish out of it.

At St. Helena's, we don't do the Eucharist at Evening Prayer, they just use it at th'Morning 'Holy Communion'.

Timothy

[pmcleanj]

At a bare minimum, based on the rubrics in my BCP (which rubrics apparently bend rather flexibly, based on my experience of Aglican practice) Morning or Evening Prayer requires a scripture reading from each of the old and new testaments, the Creed, the three appointed collects, a prayer for the clergy and people, the prayer of Saint Chrysostom, and the grace.

The rubrics actually require rather more, but as I say, they've been bent a bit by customary practice. They require, in addition to the above, confession, the Lord's Prayer, a psalm, three canticles as prescribed, the prescribed intercessions, and a prayer for the Queen. The 1662 rubrics are much more directive: they basically require the whole thing.

[PaladinValer]

My advice?

1. Don't go to the "youth group," although it sounds to me that, despite this one problem, you enjoy everything else (if not, disregard that last part).
2. Tell your priest that you disagree with not only the theology taught (it certainly doesn't sound Anglican but Calvinist) but also do not like the fact that they want to call the service "Evening Prayer." I'm sure your priest/s will be more than happy to listen to your concerns and do what is best. You shouldn't have to go to a mockery of an Anglican service. If its done in the actual parish, then that's just absolutely rediculous and wrong.
3. Talk to this "youth pastor" and tell him exactly how you feel. Instead of rambling on things than Anglicanism doesn't hold, tell him* to either start focusing on things that each group has in common or to quit. If this youth pastor is truly ecumenical ("interchurch"), then he has absolutely no right to do what he is doing. If he disagrees, then simply don't go. You shouldn't have to listen to that garbage.

*If this "youth pastor" is female, simply switch pronouns respectfully.

[RobNJ]

Has he actually been shown the Anglican prayer book for your locale?
Maybe it would be a help.

[SirTimothy]

Many thanks for the advice, PV. I will think on what you've said, and talk to Danny, our vicar tomorrow.

Timothy

[SirTimothy]

Has he actually been shown the Anglican prayer book for your locale?
Maybe it would be a help.

We don't have a prayer book unfortunately. We use CW printouts mostly. :)

Thanks for the advice all, I didn't see all the posts earlier--my browser only took me to the last post, and I assumed there was no others...

Timothy

[AveMaria]

Icky, that doesn't sound like a pleasant situation.

I'm inclinded to second PaladinValer's advice with a big resounding A-men... unless you feel you are getting something out of this youth group, but it sounds as though you're frustrated.

Definately show him the rite for Evening Prayer, and if he is opposed to incorporating it, I do think you should ask him to not call that service Evening Prayer.

Is the youth pastor personally opposed to liturgy, or is he working from the framework that 'youth couldn't possibly enjoy it'? (This is one of many reasons why I was never involved with youth group when I was younger).

It also makes the wonder about the wisdom of interfaith youth groups.

Best of luck handling the situation - please check back in with us and let us know how it's going!

[CSMR]

ignoring the salient bits of the passage, and instead bringing rubbish out of it.
A nice description!
it certainly doesn't sound Anglican but Calvinist
PaladinValer follows on with the worst insult in his book!

MartianTJ - you are welcome to be unhappy, and may be right to be, but I think you are a bit young to be lecturing your church leaders on how to make services, so I wouldn'd advise doing that. Wait a few years, mull things over, that's my advice!

CSMR

[Adammi]

Our highly conservative evangelical youth leader is running a youth service at the anglican church which the youth band is playing for, and I'm pushing for having some liturgy in it. Strongly pushing. I've had enough disagreements with him already on various minor points of doctrine I'm starting to get tired of his theology.
So I was wondering, is there any canon minimum liturgy required for it to be called evening prayer, that I can show him?
Am not happy with him on this point--Evening prayer without basic liturgy seems rather pointless to me, even if it IS led by the youth.

TimothyWell, I am Pentecostal and have no affiliation with the Anglican Church. The service that you are speaking of sounds to have somewhat Pentecostal worship, which I LOVE. But with that I LOve Liturgy and wish very much that we would return to our roots and have a minimum amount of Liturgy in our Pentecostal services.

[PaladinValer]

Since it is often seconded and thirded, it isn't just "my Book," CSMR. If you do not like that, then that is your choice. I do not see anything productive from your words each time you say them, especially since the OP seems to agree with what I said anyhow.

MartianTJ, you are in my prayers and wishes this long evening. Please post back with any results.

[Wigglesworth]

I'm Non-Denom. because there is one Church
I'm Protestant because I will protest for truth
I'm Catholic because I am part of Christ's universal church
I'm Lutheran because by fatih was I saved
I'm Anglican because our heritage must be remembered
I'm Baptist because we are saved by grace through faith
I'm Calvinist because God chose me
I'm Messianic because my God is the Messiah
I'm Methodists because holiness is God's standard
I'm Pentecostal because the power of Christ lives on
I am a Christian

That's powerful.

[UberLutheran]

I'm Non-Denominational because there is one Church
I'm Protestant because I will protest for truth
I'm Catholic because I am part of Christ's universal church
I'm Lutheran because by faith was I saved
I'm Anglican because our heritage must be remembered
I'm Baptist because we are saved by grace through faith
I'm Calvinist because God chose me
I'm Messianic because my God is the Messiah
I'm Methodist because holiness is God's standard
I'm Pentecostal because the power of Christ lives on
I am a Christian

Yes: this is DEFNITELY a keeper! :amen:

[SirTimothy]

It isn't this evening, it's next week--that's why I'm starting now to try and get liturgy incoporated into the service. I believe the liturgy is very powerful--especially the creed. Standing together to proclaim what we believe is good stuff. I /think/ he doesn't like it because it feels Catholic... *eyerolls* and to a strong protestant there's nothing worse'n being Catholic, now is there?

Timothy

[Adammi]

Thank You Wiggle and Uber so much, it hasn't been met with the greatest response by others. LoL

[PaladinValer]

Most conservative Calvinists don't like liturgy; I would agree with your "it is too 'Catholic' for them" synopsis.

[Cjwinnit]

Most conservative Calvinists don't like liturgy; I would agree with your "it is too 'Catholic' for them" synopsis.


"It's too Catholic, err I mean Anglican, or lutheran, or orthodox......"

[SirTimothy]

Most conservative Calvinists don't like liturgy; I would agree with your "it is too 'Catholic' for them" synopsis.

Since I've heard him--jokingly--say that Anglicans are just as bad as Catholics, probably. I wasn't too impressed when I heard him say that, and called him on it, since he believes the Catholics are way way out...

Timothy

[gtsecc]

Since I've heard him--jokingly--say that Anglicans are just as bad as Catholics, probably. I wasn't too impressed when I heard him say that, and called him on it, since he believes the Catholics are way way out...

Timothy
You need to convince him that we are not Catholic, and also that Christ Himself instituted the liturgy. Grab a Prayer Book and show him the 39 Articles in the back. Then find a book, or web article on Justin Martyr so he can see how old the liturgy actually is.

[pmcleanj]

You need to convince him that we are not Catholic...

That might be hard to do, if while you're showing him a Prayer Book he happens to see the bit about "We believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". Probably you'll have better luck just convincing him that we are not in communion with the Pope.

[CSMR]

Of course the word Catholic is in the Nicene and Apostles Creed.

[PaladinValer]

That doesn't mean that this individual knows the difference between "Catholic" in terms of the Vatican Catholic Church or "catholic" as in the universal faith, religion, and Church. I know a number of people, especially Non-denominationalists and Calvinists, who do not seem to understand the differences.

And, the scary thing is, many people reject both.

[SirTimothy]

Okay, I thought I'd give a bit of a wee update on what happened. I won on the matter of minimal liturgy. The call to worship was used, the confession (although not as a congregational prayer... grr), the Apostles' Creed and the peace were used in the service, so that was good--I gave my youth leader the CW evening service liturgy and outlined the bits I said needed to be in it. :)
The thing that was awful was the preaching. Extreme Calvinistic Protestantism (hmm... ECP could become a new acronym in this forum... not to be confused with the BCP... Heheheh) at it's worst. He manages to bash anyone who doesn't believe strict creationalism in his sermon... fairly impressive in a *30* minute plus sermon on the kingship of christ (when we normall have a sermon of 15 minutes max at evensong, apart from one truly inspired fellow who was telling about his work, who stopped at 15 minutes and asked if he was taking too long and the whole congregation wanted him to go on,) and also goes on and on with referring to the Bible as God's Holy inerrant and infallible Word. I guess I should be grateful that he isn't KJV only.
I even queried the necessity of the sermon to him (as we were decorating the Christmon tree that day, which with all the things could have taken the slot beautifully I felt, as it did the previous year,) and he said that the sermon was totally necessary--the focal point of every service, as it was 'God's Word'. Anyone know where that idea comes from, folks?

In Him,

Timothy

[SirTimothy]

Oh, and I got queried on my genuflections (and crossing myself when I left it) at the altar by one of my strongly evangelical friends--he wanted to know why. I told him it was reverence for the cross and the bread and wine which is stored up there. That was interesting. I don't think he understood totally though--I don't genuflect and cross myself at the non-denom church I attend for morning service unless no-one else is around, because some people would probably look askance. I plan on doing it more regularly though, because I do feel it's right to have reverence to the cross.

Timothy

[thejesusfish90]

Hey Timothy!



How are you? Sorry I havent helped you out earlier… I would have except that I had my end of Year 10 School certificate exams on recently, which I have finished (YAY!!)… Now with this drama about this service… I think its important you consider the target audience…. This service yourgoing to sounds remarkeably similar to what they have at my church, which is an Ultra low church, non-traditional contemporary service, with modern praise music, directed at the youth… If Youth in England are anythign like they are in Australia, then I think you’ll find that your churches changes may indeed be not such a bad Idea… Whilst tradition and structured service/liturgy may be beneficial and helpful for you and me (I love the ordered service of the Eucharist in the BCP, and I would imagine I would greatly enjoy evensong, even though I have never been to such a service), for the majority of youth it isn’t…. Having traditions and structured liturgy is by and large relatively unhelpful for many youth especially if I am right in assuming this service is also aimed at reaching out to non-christian youth… Generally the meaning of the words and traditions is not understood by the majority of youth, and repeating them over and over again will make it boring and pointless for them…. Your dilema sounds very similar to what I have been through in my church…. We have stopped having the Eucharist at the evening service I attend, which im not too happy about, even though when they actually did the Eucharist in the Past they didn’t do it 100% correctly (eg they had plastic jugs filled with grape juice, plastic cups and a roll of bread around tables, where the minister would read out Jesus’ words in the passover meal, and then encourage us to talk about what jesus means to us whilst taking the bread and the wine) now, even though I find taking Eucharist at a service extremely encouraging, I do believe that the majority of the youth would have not understood the significance of the Eucharist and would not have benefitted from it, infact it may well have bored them, thus it was done away with… Now I know that to most people here this would probably be a travesty of the Anglican faith not having the Eucharist… but my church has succeeded in its goal to reach out to the youth, with many new faces appearing in church at every service and a steadily growing congregation not just in numbers but in faith… the service without the tradition and structured liturgy has made christianity far more accesible and understandable to the average Joe Blow youth, which should be a higher priority then maintaining poorly understood traditions and litrugy at a service aimed at reaching and teaching the youth… Now I certainly wont object to your dis-satisfaction with the pastors sermons- verbally bashing non-creationists in a church only makes things messy, and I have no problem with people being theistic Evolutionists, but I think its important to remember that going to church isn’t just about being served, but serving, thus I reckon that unlike Paladin said you should stick it out at that church… you could certainly go to a more traditional service in the morning, but being there at that service could be your opportunity to serve… you clearly seem to be a very intelligent person who understands the gospel well…thus you can be an encouragement to less informed christians and even be there if new people come along… that’s the reason why I stick it out at my evening service, along with the fact that its where I can have fellowship with other people my age and be encouraged by them…. Hopefully I might have helped in some way, and I pray that God may bring you to situation which brings him the most glory.



Your Brother in Christ



Chris

[AveMaria]

Thanks for the update, Timothy, and I'm glad to hear that some liturgy is being used.

Out of curiosity, what's the breakdown of the rest of the group? I'm guessing it's mostly ECP? How do others feel about the way services are run? How did they react to the inclusion of the Creeds, etc?

And how are you feeling about the changes? Do you feel more comfortable? Are your spiritual needs being met, more?
I'd disagree with your youth pastor that "sermon = most important, central part". I'd have to vote for the Gospel reading (done in Procession, of course!), then followed by Eucharist.

[CSMR]

he said that the sermon was totally necessary--the focal point of every service, as it was 'God's Word'. Anyone know where that idea comes from, folks?
If he said that his words are God's Word that would be very unusual! To interpret and explain the Word in the read bible passage, and to relate it to the congregation's life, is the important function of the sermon. Hopefully the person giving the sermon has had time to study the passage in depth, and has a good understanding of the faith, and is so able to explain the meaning to his congregation. Personally I would often be happy to have thirty minutes silence to meditate on the passage instead of a sermon, but I wouldn't impose this idea on anyone else!

[PaladinValer]

I would no longer attend Youth Group with this youth "pastor" and I would speak to your priest about your parish's involvement in it. No Anglican should put up with such absolute nonsense that is in direct violation with our official doctrine of STR, notably the T part.

You can do so much better than that nonsense.

My prayers and thoughts are for and with you as you endure this wretched suffering. I hope and pray it ends soon and you can be pastored by someone respectable enough.

[AveMaria]

I second what PaladinValer said - I, too, would no longer attend that group and would speak to my Rector about my concerns.

However, I do realize there's a difficult decision to be made: would you rather suffer through services that are contrary to your spiritual beliefs and have fellowship with your peers or no longer attend those services and not have that fellowship any longer. I've been in similar situations, and it was always a very difficult decision to make. I wish you the best of luck.