Are you a skeptic?

[5solas]

Once upon a time there was a guy called Josh McDowell who wanted to prove that the Bible is wrong and full of contradictions. Now he is a believer!

Here is his website: http://www.josh.org/apologetics/skeptical.asp

Are you a skeptic?
by Josh McDowell
I was a skeptic too until I took a good hard look at the claims of Jesus Christ. In college I met several students who challenged me to take a closer look, to study and examine the Christian faith.

I took the challenge, feeling certain I could prove Christianity to be false, a religion built on nice stories that couldn't stand up to the test of truth.

But as I dug deeper and deeper into the claims of Christianity, I was shocked. I found facts, not fiction. I found so much evidence that I could only come to one conclusion Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was crucified, He died, and He was resurrected on the third day.

Soon after this discovery, I accepted Jesus as my Savior and Lord. That was 39 years ago. My life has been completely changed because I have a personal relationship with Christ.

As a skeptic, you've probably heard this before, but don't just shrug it off I challenge you, as those students challenged me examine the claims of Jesus Christ for yourself. If there's even the slightest chance that He truly is the Son of God, shouldn't you be willing to find out?

To get started, why not order a copy (http://www.josh.org/search/default.asp?numinlistgroup=10&groupnum=0&myhomepage=http://www.josh.org&keysearch5=carpenter) of More Than a Carpenter. Or check out the Apologetics Resource Center (http://www.josh.org/search/default.asp?numinlistgroup=10&groupnum=0&myhomepage=http://www.josh.org&keysearch2=Apologetics%20-%20Evidence%20for%20faith).

[Avaya]

He is an awesome speaker!

[JBrian]

Once upon a time there was a guy called Josh McDowell who wanted to prove that the Bible is wrong and full of contradictions. Now he is a believer!

Here is his website: http://www.josh.org/apologetics/skeptical.asp

Are you a skeptic?
by Josh McDowell
I was a skeptic too until I took a good hard look at the claims of Jesus Christ. In college I met several students who challenged me to take a closer look, to study and examine the Christian faith.

I took the challenge, feeling certain I could prove Christianity to be false, a religion built on nice stories that couldn't stand up to the test of truth.

But as I dug deeper and deeper into the claims of Christianity, I was shocked. I found facts, not fiction. I found so much evidence that I could only come to one conclusion Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was crucified, He died, and He was resurrected on the third day.

Soon after this discovery, I accepted Jesus as my Savior and Lord. That was 39 years ago. My life has been completely changed because I have a personal relationship with Christ.

As a skeptic, you've probably heard this before, but don't just shrug it off I challenge you, as those students challenged me examine the claims of Jesus Christ for yourself. If there's even the slightest chance that He truly is the Son of God, shouldn't you be willing to find out?

To get started, why not order a copy (http://www.josh.org/search/default.asp?numinlistgroup=10&groupnum=0&myhomepage=http://www.josh.org&keysearch5=carpenter) of More Than a Carpenter. Or check out the Apologetics Resource Center (http://www.josh.org/search/default.asp?numinlistgroup=10&groupnum=0&myhomepage=http://www.josh.org&keysearch2=Apologetics%20-%20Evidence%20for%20faith).
Good stuff!!

[LegomasterJC]

The Case for Christ is similar.

[goodoldboy]

When I was in college, I met Christians from Campus Crusade for Christ. They handed me a free booklet by Josh McDowell named Skeptics Who Demanded a Verdict. I read it and I still keep it on my bookshelf.

The booklet has writings from three people--Charles W Colson, C. S. Lewis, and Josh McDowell. I heard a lot of good things about McDowell from Christians, so I read the book. The nine-page chapter written by McDowell tries to convince me that Jesus is Lord because he was neither a liar nor a lunatic. It is the familiar "trilemma" introduced by C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity.

McDowell did not contend with the more popular contention among skeptics including myself--that Jesus is primarily neither liar, lunatic nor Lord, but rather mostly myth.

I heard more about McDowell from real skeptics who read his books. McDowell seems to be a writer for Christians instead of non-Christians. Christians don't normally consider the possiblity that Jesus is wrong, so they don't think of the possibilty that Jesus is myth unless someone mentions it to them. McDowell strengthens the faith of unskeptical Christians, but non-Christian skeptics who investigate are not moved.

On a tangent, I find that the people like McDowell and C.S. Lewis claimed to have been are few. The people who investigate the Christian religion with a reasoned and truth-seeking intent are more likely to distance themselves from the Christian religion. At least that is the way it seems from my perspective. McDowell wants to make you believe that the divinity of Jesus is the natural conclusion of reasonable judgment. That doesn't seem to be true from where I stand.

[5solas]

McDowell did not contend with the more popular contention among skeptics including myself--that Jesus is primarily neither liar, lunatic nor Lord, but rather mostly myth.
What does mostly myth mean?
Do you agree that there was a person called Jesus who lived in Israel about 2000 years ago - or do you think that most things written in the NT are just myths? Because you wrote "mostly" I suppose that you take certain things as historical facts.... ;) What are those things and WHY? (... and why not...)

[Jedi christian]

That's Awesome!

[MinDach]

At least that is the way it seems from my perspective

Your perspective is from what you see & feel around you at the moment. If you knew there was a way to heaven, but would not even try to get there..........Because your feeling are telling you its a myth. Don't believe your feeling.........they change from night to day at the drop of a hat. Would you believe with Hard facts? The Bible has been proven over and over again. Read it for your self. Then if you do not find Christ, then live your life. God is a Spirit, they who find him, will worship in Spirit & Truth.

[goodoldboy]

What does mostly myth mean?
Do you agree that there was a person called Jesus who lived in Israel about 2000 years ago - or do you think that most things written in the NT are just myths? Because you wrote "mostly" I suppose that you take certain things as historical facts.... ;) What are those things and WHY? (... and why not...) Speaking only for myself, I believe that Jesus existed, but the way his character is portrayed in the New Testament contains an excessive amount of distortion and embellishment. If I eleborate on that, I'll get in trouble with the mods. But my point is that most skeptics of Christianity contend that Jesus is at least mostly just myth (many think that he is wholly myth), and McDowell ignored that in the little booklet. Instead, McDowell focused on the much less popular contentions that Jesus is a liar or a lunatic.

[goodoldboy]

Your perspective is from what you see & feel around you at the moment. If you knew there was a way to heaven, but would not even try to get there..........Because your feeling are telling you its a myth. Don't believe your feeling.........they change from night to day at the drop of a hat. Would you believe with Hard facts? The Bible has been proven over and over again. Read it for your self. Then if you do not find Christ, then live your life. God is a Spirit, they who find him, will worship in Spirit & Truth. You don't understand. It is not just my feelings that tell me that there is no heaven or God or stuff like that. It is the whole of my thinking faculties. I am not trusting feelings here.

[BlessedVegan]

Shoot I'm still a skeptic! I am a Christian now but I'm still skeptical of many things in life. But reading that sort of thing is what brought me to Christ. In a way I'm glad it worked out how it did...I feel very strongly now because my faith didn't come easily...I have no problems defending it because I believe it so strongly. :liturgy:

[MinDach]

thinking faculties

What your saying then is what you have been taught. People are taught wrong things all the time. This day and age, its hard to tell whats real any more. Thats why you have to dig real deep for the truth. If you can do that, then you will find God. There is no other person any where in the whole world who did what Christ did just for (you). and he would do it all again, even if you were the only one he died for.

[rapturefish]

Speaking only for myself, I believe that Jesus existed, but the way his character is portrayed in the New Testament contains an excessive amount of distortion and embellishment. If I eleborate on that, I'll get in trouble with the mods. But my point is that most skeptics of Christianity contend that Jesus is at least mostly just myth (many think that he is wholly myth), and McDowell ignored that in the little booklet. Instead, McDowell focused on the much less popular contentions that Jesus is a liar or a lunatic.

Hi there goodoldboy,

From where I stand, I find testimonies more powerful than reasoned arguments. There are truths or principles contained in the bible that, when believed upon and acted upon, will bring out the very things promised. The problem that some people have though is a "let me see and I'll believe" approach. However, the principles work only on a "believe and you will see" basis. This is not a cop-out, but merely the way that God made faith to work. Because faith requires trust in a God as real, only the truly trusting person will benefit and begin a relationship with God that is based fully on trust.

I believed God was real because God reached out to me. In a world where there is much confusion and where we cannot see God, God has to reach out to us. We need an encounter with God to know the unknowable. he spoke to me that whatever the problem was, He was the answer. When I gave my life over to Him, something changed in me that was real and in the core of my being. It involves a change of mindset, but at the end of the day when it happens you end up knowing God is real as sure as you know the sky is blue.

There are numerous things in my life that have to be of God. Nothing makes sense without God. There is a presence in me that fills the void in me, and God has enabled me to speak in a spiritual language, a language that I do not understand but when I use it something in me is filled up and I am full of a renewed desire to praise God and not desire the things that are of the world. He has provided for me when I needed help, he has miraculously healed me of an emotional hurt overnight, one that should have taken a decade just to move on from. I prayed once when I got into a taxi and wasn't sure I had enough money. I decided not to panic and trusted God would provide. Just when I thought I'd run out of money the taxi stopped and I emptied all I had. It was the exact amount, not a penny more. This happened when I trusted God with the provision.

When people are not willing to believe in what God has said about himself, then no promise is claimed or believed on, no faith is present and nothing happens. but if God speaks to a person, either through the bible or otherwise, and that person chooses to believe and commit their life to Him, then the promise is acted upon because the truth is believed in and faith is exercised. And the promise comes true. It is a risk, it is costly to the person who has to make that choice. But as someone on the other side I can say that there is a God who loves you, is as real as anything and He is longing to give you life, a full one that will completely change your world for something wonderful.

I cannot do better than tell you my story. If you are doubtful about the things about Jesus in the bible, evidence can be given to show that Jesus was not only a myth. Myths are not specific about details of place, time and other information. The Greek and Roman gods were of this nature. The timing of Jesus' life and genealogy was specified as to his birth, the context of his life, the ruling people in his day and the nature of his death. All details about these things have been evidenced as to the information we know about Roman times.

Another point is that the gospels are not pure history books. Each writer used a style of writing that was considered perfectly acceptable in their day. They used the selection and ordering of events to communicate a purpose, ie they used the miracles in Luke and the genealogy to show that Jesus came for the gentiles; they used the scriptures and a different genealogy to show that Jesus was credible as a Jewish messiah and a fulfilment of prophecy. The gentiles were not concerned so much with prophecy but the Jews were so you will see much more prophecy in Matthew, and the genealogy is ordered and not complete in Matthew for the possible purpose that God ordered and purposed Jesus' coming. Neither account has embellished details, but both have selected the information available to speak to different audiences.

A myth may begin in a known place. But often the time is not specific, and the level of detail is not great. The four gospels are credible as far as eyewitness accounts go. If the information from all four corroborated 100% it would in police terms be false. People by nature will give slightly varying accounts if the event that occurred were true, as different people will come away with different impressions.

At the end of the day though, one needs to make a choice to believe or not. Some may be convinced enough by the weight of evidence and that is good to investigate; but beyond a certain amount of investigation one can only choose, for you can go on investigating forever and it will still leave you with a choice to make. Only when you trust God and take that step to believe in what he claims will you really find out how real those promises are. And I tell you, you will not disappointed if your faith is sincere and placed in those truths.

cheers,

RF :D <><

[BlessedVegan]

That's a great post rapturefish! You're very convincing!

[goodoldboy]

rapturefish, I know you will hate to hear this, but I have done the thorough investigations. The New Testament contains lots of factual detail just as The Odyssey I read in high school contains lots of factual detail. I have decided that both are myths. One is motivated by storytelling, and the other is motivated by religion.

And so you say that I must believe in God before I can truly find God. That is unfortunate for me, because the evidence must convince me before I believe it. If I start to believe in God just because I want eternal life and a heavenly father who protects me, answers my prayers, and rules the whole world, then I may just believe I have the evidence when there really is none, and I will continue to believe in God even when there is no God.

So I will not believe in God before I see him personally. If God seems to reveal himself only to those who believe in him first, then he has that characteristic in common with a whole variety of hoaxes and superstitions and other things that are not real, and I am doomed to disbelief and whatever that might bring upon me.

[5solas]

And so you say that I must believe in God before I can truly find God. That is unfortunate for me, because the evidence must convince me before I believe it.
So I will not believe in God before I see him personally. If God seems to reveal himself only to those who believe in him first,Dear goodoldboy,
I just recommend that you read the following verses and think about them (dont's say: "I am not going to believe them, they are just bible verses" - I am not asking you to believe them but to read and think about them. You should be able to do this, at least you have an icon with a black brain in a grey head...;) )

Act 17:21-28 Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new. So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for "'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, "'For we are indeed his offspring.'

(The Apostle Paul writing): Rom 1:16-32 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith." For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

[Asar'el]

The book that started me (back then, when I was an atheist), was called, I think, 'Who rolled the stone?'. There was also a gentle challenge from a (now dear) friend, to re-examine what I believed, and why.

Many times I have heard the argument 'You only believe because that's how you were raised up', or along those lines. Like Josh, I am living proof that skeptics, and yes, convinced atheists, can also find the truth. God's ways are wonderous indeed.

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

The people who investigate the Christian religion with a reasoned and truth-seeking intent are more likely to distance themselves from the Christian religion. At least that is the way it seems from my perspective. McDowell wants to make you believe that the divinity of Jesus is the natural conclusion of reasonable judgment. That doesn't seem to be true from where I stand.

Hm. Do you suppose they are looking it from a reasoned and truly truthseeking perspective, or do you suppose they are ignoring a subconscious bias?

[rapturefish]

Hi there goodoldboy,

rapturefish, I know you will hate to hear this, but I have done the thorough investigations. The New Testament contains lots of factual detail just as The Odyssey I read in high school contains lots of factual detail. I have decided that both are myths. One is motivated by storytelling, and the other is motivated by religion.

I'm glad you have done some thorough investigation into the matter. I do agree that one should know who they're getting into and it's fine to check the evidence. However, beyond a certain point of investigation there comes a time when you realise that you have to choose to believe or not because there is more than one voice in the evidence that one looks at and ultimately it is confusing.

There is no doubt that the disciples of Jesus would write their testimony of Jesus based on what they have seen and what they believe. They never set out to simply be historical. They had an agenda, a clear one that they lived and breathed to their dying day. Of all the four gospels, Luke was the first-rate historian regarded by scholars both secular and christian. Yet he too was about communicating that Jesus is the Christ and that his life backed it up. It is not reasonable to put a mandate on a text that the text itself did not set out to do itself.

There is the question though - if the disciples wanted the best possible argument for their case that Jesus was the Christ, then why would the accounts contain stories that speak against the disciples themselves? If it really was a myth of propaganda there would be no mention of Peter and his denial of Christ, the mention of all the disciples deserting Jesus, of Jesus humiliated and shamed like a criminal, etc. These are the types of incidents a myth would seek to omit. From a logical standpoint the way to support Jesus in human terms would be to hide all the dirt and simply paint a picture devoid of any incriminating events. Yet freely the accounts mention not only the otherwise unforgivable errors of the disciples but also the faults of the disciples after Jesus arose. In Acts Paul has an argument with his missionary partner, Barnabas. Peter makes the mistake of separating himself from his gentile brothers, and Paul reubukes him publicly. In other words, myths do not show the bad as well as the good, and in such detail.

And so you say that I must believe in God before I can truly find God. That is unfortunate for me, because the evidence must convince me before I believe it. If I start to believe in God just because I want eternal life and a heavenly father who protects me, answers my prayers, and rules the whole world, then I may just believe I have the evidence when there really is none, and I will continue to believe in God even when there is no God.

I am for you in looking for evidence. But once there is sufficient evidence to support the validity of the gospel accounts and the claim that Jesus is the son of God and died for your sins, then the decision has to be made with a measure of faith. God intentionally did not let it be spelt out so clearly that you had no choice but to believe. You have to want that life with God for yourself. And if you make that choice, it will be a choice made out of your desire to believe and not having the evidence compelling you and eliminating any chance to exercise faith.

As someone on the other side, I can tell you that when one believes the assurance comes by way of the Holy Spirit. Not only is the evidence in word, but the presence of God himself is experienced in the person. That assurance means that one is as sure of the reality of God as they are sure of their humanity. It means the faith is not a 'brainwash' of mindset but a reality backed up by an assurance that is supernatural and not theoretical.

So I will not believe in God before I see him personally. If God seems to reveal himself only to those who believe in him first, then he has that characteristic in common with a whole variety of hoaxes and superstitions and other things that are not real, and I am doomed to disbelief and whatever that might bring upon me.

God has already revealed himself to you in creation, in the fact that you even look for meaning like no other creature on earth. The bible exists to testify about Jesus, and the historical record backs up that a Jesus existed, that the factual data surrounding the time of Jesus and the rest of the bible were real and credible. The internal evidence of the gospels themselves are consistent with four people who have witnessed and recorded and collated events to testify to Jesus. The choice now is whether to believe them or not.

God wrote the rules of living here on earth, saying that whoever seeks me shall find me. There has to be an openness to the possibility that God is real, and there must be a yearning in the heart to look for God. If that promise of God is real, just ask God, "God, I want to know if you're real. If you're real, show yourself to me." Now God has spoken to people who have said that in sarcasm, that's how gracious he is. But he seeks people who are genuinely looking for him. If you ask God that when your heart is proud and desiring that God centre his ways around yours, then it probably won't happen. But a heart that genuinely cries out for him will be found by him.

As I said earlier, there are many voices out there. God has spoken, and yet there is Satan who loves to confuse people. For every evidence there is about God, there will be a voice that tries to extinguish it, and that confusion means that sometimes people will take the many voices to be one voice, and that it is confusion. And confusion only leads down the path of giving it all up and saying if it doesn't all make sense, there's nothing there. We cannnot discover the truth through our study and searching in the end. You will find sufficient evidence there of God, but in the end there has to be a choice to call out to God to reveal himself in all the confusion.

The scientific method is to test a hypothesis. Why not try and test out what a personal God is saying, that whoever seeks him will find him when they seek with all their heart? You have nothing to lose. The worst that can happen is that you were mistaken and no-one has to even know about it.

Thanks for your posts, it's always good to discuss these issues and I hope you will benefit much from it all, as i am encouraged by your questioning.

cheers,

RF :D <><

[goodoldboy]

Dear goodoldboy,
I just recommend that you read the following verses and think about them (dont's say: "I am not going to believe them, they are just bible verses" - I am not asking you to believe them but to read and think about them. You should be able to do this, at least you have an icon with a black brain in a grey head...;) ) OK, 5solas, I read those verses. Are there any other verses you would like me to read? If so, then I have a few selections of literature that I would like you to read in exchange.

[goodoldboy]

Hm. Do you suppose they are looking it from a reasoned and truly truthseeking perspective, or do you suppose they are ignoring a subconscious bias? I don't know. It is hard to escape those ever-prevalent biases.

[goodoldboy]

The book that started me (back then, when I was an atheist), was called, I think, 'Who rolled the stone?'. There was also a gentle challenge from a (now dear) friend, to re-examine what I believed, and why.

Many times I have heard the argument 'You only believe because that's how you were raised up', or along those lines. Like Josh, I am living proof that skeptics, and yes, convinced atheists, can also find the truth. God's ways are wonderous indeed. I haven't read Who Moved the Stone yet. I read from a critic that the author reaches the conclusion that the Gospels are perfectly true only by starting with the assumption that the Gospels are perfectly true. I don't know if that criticism is true since I haven't read the book. But now that I think about it, even the title of the book seems to confirm that criticism. There is little use asking, "Who moved the stone?" to provide evidence for the truth of the Gospels when we don't know anything about the stone except from the Gospels in question.

But we don't have to talk about that with your permission. Tell me about that time when you were an atheist. In exchange, I will tell you about the time I was a believer in Christ.

[goodoldboy]

rapturefish, that is really very generous of you to write all that. I have trouble deciding what to say in return. I could argue with you further about whether or not the Gospels are true, but I know that there is no use in that since Satan is confusing me and I really just need to have faith and everything will become clear and whatnot. If you want to talk about why I think the Gospels are hoaky despite Luke being a first-rate historian and the disciples being incriminated by their own words and Jesus being portrayed as a criminal, then I will, but only with your willingness.

Instead, how about talking about your scientific experiment. Your proposal was, "Why not try and test out what a personal God is saying, that whoever seeks him will find him when they seek with all their heart? You have nothing to lose. The worst that can happen is that you were mistaken and no-one has to even know about it."

Well, once again I run into another dead end. You see, there was a time in my life when I did seek God with all my heart. I spent years like that. Many Christians tell me that I wasn't truly seeking with all of my heart, but they only say that because they are certain about how God really works, and their gut feelings, or whatever they heard in church, tell them that God reveals Himself to people who truly seek after God. I can't convince them that I truly sought after God because I have no evidence to show them, which is an unfortunate thing for science, but I know the truth personally for myself. Maybe I didn't believe the right thing and I got the spiritual formula all wrong or something. But I thought I had it all. I believed that Jesus died and rose again to save me from my sin, and I asked Jesus to forgive me for my sin so that I can have a personal relationship with Him. I read the Bible so that I could learn to live my life for God.

And then the doubts crept in. Maybe it is Satan, but, really, I think it is more likely that my nature as a truth-seeker caused me to realize that I was closing my mind at the potential expense of the truth, so I decided to open my mind. Well, that got me a little worried. I slowly found out that my faith was built on sand, as Jesus would put it. I never saw or experienced God enough to make myself truly sure of God. It took me two years of searching for something to make me sure of Christianity. I called out to God in worried prayers at night and asked Him to give me some physical sign, like the signs granted to the people of the Bible and those I hear from in church. I got nothing from God. Not a blessed thing that I could identify. I finally assembled all the pieces together after years of investigations and arguments with believers and non-believers. I concluded that there is no God.

That isn't to say that I will always disbelieve in God for sure. But I have resolved that I will stop knocking on God's door. I have knocked, banged, kicked, shoved, and screamed at that cursed door for too long. So, instead, I will wait for God to knock on my door. When God knocks on my door, I will invite him in for a drink or two, and we will have a long pleasant conversation together. I will inroduce him to my friends. And I will ask him lots of questions. If he seems to be really God, then I will finally believe that God is real. Then I will do what God thinks is best for me.

[5solas]

OK, 5solas, I read those verses. Are there any other verses you would like me to read? If so, then I have a few selections of literature that I would like you to read in exchange.of course the best thing would be if you read the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation - possibly you have done this already (you just wrote in one of your posts that you were a believer in Christ...) . In that case I would recommend Calvin's Institutio... this will give you a new perspective ;)


well, I just wonder what kind of literature you would recommend me to read (perhaps I even got some of that stuff; you know, I had a "former" life..... :blush: [and I would never ever want to go back to it!])

looking forward to seeing your list.... :cool:

[goodoldboy]

of course the best thing would be if you read the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation :D :P - possibly you have done this already (you just wrote in one of your posts that you were a believer in Christ...) . In that case I would recommend Calvin's Institutio... this will give you a new perspective ;)


well, I just wonder what kind of literature you would recommend me to read (perhaps I even got some of that stuff; you know, I had a "former" life.....) ^_^

looking forward to seeing your list.... :cool: OK, that's great! You can start with Why I Am Agnostic by Robert Ingersoll. It is a 26-page book, but you don't have to borrow the book. You can find it all online, just do a Google search (the mods won't let me link to atheist websites). Read that and I will agree to read anything of roughly-equivalent length.

[5solas]

hi goodoldboy

I found the book - and I am going to read it, promise :thumbsup:

(I hope the admins and mods are not going to censor this!)For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.....

Well, what do I say for a start? My belief is not an inheritance - not at all! It is a discovery, a personal encounter (figuratively speaking of course!!) with Jesus Christ - after a long journey - and thanks to God's grace alone!

anyway, .... I am gonna read it

perhaps this book might interest you - or challenge you (as it certainly would many Christians as well ...):

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm
(though it has more than 26 pages, but it's not like Calvin's institutio, which is a bit voluminous...)

[rapturefish]

Dear goodoldboy,

Thank you for writing such a thoughtful and personal response, I really do feel for your situation. From what you've told me, you did become a christian. You made a commitment to Christ. I'm glad you talked about this aspect because I think it gets closer to the heart of it.

I know for myself that I've had doubts at different times in my life with God. There were times early on in my walk that I had doubts, even though looking back on the time I prayed and gave my life to God I knew that it was a real event and that everything did change. Somehow I made it through those doubts, as people reminded me of the promises of God and I believed them afresh. Looking back I guess it was a matter of choosing to believe the word of God or believing the doubts that crept into my mind.

The other major times I had a crisis of faith were when I had a church conflict and my grandma died all in the same period of time. At that time I had been a christian for some years. It was a real blow: I had been trying to witness to her in cantonese (I am asian but my cantonese is only so-so) and had joined an evangelism course just to do that. I took a step and stretched myself in trying to tell the gospel in another language, but the person training me was a woman with issues with men hurting her in the past.

We weren't working well together so I quit. This sent her into a rage and she rang me daily just to vent her anger at me and I was psychologically traumatised to a degree. Eventually I had to leave the church out of sheer self-preservation. I was angry at God for not coming to my defense. I felt he had let me down, that I was unjustly treated by being the one who had to leave the chuch and not her. And then my grandma died, unsaved. i hadn't had a close relative die before, and yet I felt I had done all I could to tell her about Jesus. I felt absolutely hopeless about it.

The pain of the church conflict meant I seriously didn't want to pray, read the bible or do anything with church again. It was ironic - the very things you want to run to are the things that remind you most of the pain. If there was a time I had cause to quit, this was it.

But I didn't. Somehow, even though i was angry as anything at God, I also knew that I couldn't live without him. My life would have no purpose without him. I don't know how, but I started to look for another church. At that time I thought, "I don't care what the church is, as long as God is in it." So I went to a couple of churches that were of a style I was used to, but God was not there. It was dead to me. Then, taking a risk, I went to a charismatic church. It was amazing. There was a presence of God in that church and a warmth in the welcoming people that I hadn't experienced in other churches. At the same time I knew that this was a real departure for me. I had never been to a charismatic church, they were the ones who spoke in tongues and had spiritual gifts like prophecy and so on. I had traditionally been brought up away from all of that.

To cut a long story short, God healed me of that emotional hurt in me from the conflict. It happened at a time when the pain had me almost unable to speak and I had moved past anger at God to just wanting to be free. At a rally I prayed to the point of tears to God, saying that I was willing to forgive that woman but I just had nothing left in me at all to be able to do it. So I prayed for God to give me the strength. The next day the burden had miraculously left! I had reached a turning point. I understood now why God wanted us to forgive others. It was for our healing. And it brought my relationship with God back to full health. I hadn't been excited about prayer or the bible in a long time.

I realise now that even though we pray that prayer and are saved by God's grace, a connection between us and God has to remain open so that God's goodness can flow through us and our life with God remains alive. We are attached to the vine that is God when we are saved. But the have to remain in the vine and that means we need to keep choosing God even when it seems there is no apparent word from God.

There is one more thing. After that healing it led me to seeking more of the Holy Spirit. I knew that the conflict had actually exposed the inside of me, and I realised my dryness spiritually and that the incidents of that year basically told me that I was bankrupt. There had to be more. I realised that the fruits of the Spirit were not in me, that somehow I had hid that behind a mask that even I didn't know existed. By having to confront my lack of forgiveness of others God removed the roadblock that would have prevented what happened next.

I thought, if God could heal me of a hurt that should've taken a decade to heal, then what else could he do? I read a lot of books about this Baptism of the Holy Spirit and about speaking in tongues. At first I feared tongues (what was it for?) but as I read more and read the bible afresh without the blinkers I once had I was convinced that tongues were real and that there was indeed more.

I received tongues months later, and I knew that the fullness I felt as a new christian many years ago was back, but this time it wouldn't leave. It was as if I'd jumped from a 2-D movie screen to real life in 3-D. It was and still is a wonderful blessing to receive such a gift of prayer, praise and building up my spirit with the Holy Spirit's power. I had lived my life in Jesus without power for so long I was starved and it was a rebirth for me to have God so near and that I really did have a new desire to be like Jesus that was so natural! I knew that I could not have received it if I had still been unforgiving in my heart, and laid down my way of doing things.

I'm not sure what happened when God didn't seem to speak to you, goodoldboy. But whatever has happened has happened, and something still doesn't fit in your life for you to be here, asking. I knew for myself that there were things in my heart that prevented God from working in my life, and only when I took a step of faith did everything go wrong and the worst of me was exposed. That was a terrible time, but once I realised how empty I was as a person and gave it up to God, and the issues of unforgiveness and anger against God dealt with, the Spirit of God could flow through me again. And the work of the Holy Spirit ensured that God's presence could remain near and that I could finally live the christian life super-naturally with a renewed natural desire and with power.

Maybe there are things in your heart that need giving up to God. Or maybe you just need to recommit your life to Him. Maybe Satan did come in and cloud your vision of God by getting you to focus on the tangible and forget the things unseen. Only you know what goes on in your heart, what things that may get in the way of God working in you. I feel that in holding onto the mindset that believes that "to believe in God wholly is to close one's mind" has become a snare for you. When you choose the life with God, you cannot hold onto that life and hold onto a back door in case you were wrong. That is not living by faith. As it says in James, he who believes and doubts is like a double-minded man, tossed here and there by the waves.

I think there is a tug-of-war going on for your life. The life with God is a life of freedom. With God, by faith you can do all things. Satan loves to confuse people, and the idea of beeing a freethinker appeals to objectivity as opposed to an apparent delusion. But one can only search so much. One can only know as much of the picture as God reveals. No-one can search out the whole truth when so much is hidden, out of the reach of the world of the five senses. God has to reveal it to us from outside to shed light on the truth.

I have lived through that crisis in my life and have come through stronger only because I gave in to God and trusted him. My faith is stronger through that, and I can claim no credit, it was God working in me when I let him. I had to make a choice to believe him, and no holding back. I feel that this is the choice you need to make. You can believe God is real and give your life to him again completely, or hold onto the freethinker mindset that holds you back from God. I am not saying you leave your thinking faculties behind, but you have to trust God again and this time without reservation. This begins in the mind and it is a choice, a journey that you must work through.

I also feel that the type of christianity you lived before didn't come with power. The early church in Acts had the Holy Spirit working through in everything. Maybe you need to find a church that believes in the work of the Holy Spirit for today, because there is a great need to live the life of God by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit assures me of God's reality and I cannot go through each day without leaning on God's power.

If there is more that God impresses upon me I'll post further. Thanks again for your post and hear from you soon,

RF :D <><

[goodoldboy]

rapturefish, once again you have blessed me with such a long testimony. I would like to hear more about your experiences in church. Describe in detail what normally happens week-to-week. I have been to a charimatic church only once in my life (it was in your country of Australia coinidentally). Besides that, I have only heard this and that about charimatic churches from other sorts of Christians, and I would like to get the lowdown from someone who is part of one. You can tell me about how your own feelings, but I am especially interested in how it would look if a robot were to go in to your church and videotape.

How do they preach? Do they use plenty of arm movements? Do they vary the volume of their voices, are they often quiet and then become loud? Do they often walk among congregation? Do they often have music accompanying their preaching?

What do they preach? What do they say about Satan? What do they suggest to do to fight him? What sort of Bible verses are most important to them? What do they say about reason? What do they say about emotion?

How do they dress? Do those in front dress strikingly different from everyone else?

How is the music? Does it often arouse elatedness? Is it loud? Does it involve much dancing, waving and shouting?

How does the congregation react to the preaching? Do they shout? Speak in tongues? Faint? Have visions?

This is all part of my journey of gatheiring knowledge. Christians seem to have the most intense spiritual experiences in charismatic churches, and I would like to discern why. Charismatic churches also seem to have lots of enemies in Christianity. Do the preachers say anything about their critics in other churches?

[rapturefish]

Dear goodoldboy,

Within Pentecostal and charismatic churches there is still a variety of worship styles. I have been to a Vineyard church where the worship was quite gentle and the use of spiritual gifts was done in a sober and orderly way. I have also been to Hillsong, and the worship there can be quite loud and the energy quite high. But they also have quieter worship. I’ve been to a charismatic church, the one I mentioned earlier and that was a curious mix of Anglican readings and “on fire” worship.

Where shall I start? If you entered my current church, a Pentecostal church, you would be greeted at the door by people and you would be at a rented school hall. The worship team would be mostly asian, in fact the congregation is mostly asian and they would be practising a few worship songs, sometimes they would be using the latest songs to come out of Hillsong or other worship material. Five minutes before the service the worship team gets in a circle and prays not in turn but all at once, tongues or no tongues. The service starts by our pastor welcoming everyone and asking everyone to turn to five people and saying something like, “God is good all the time” or anything. As they do that, the worship team plays some music and after a few minutes they begin the worship music time. Usually we have about three songs, and some people in the congregation will raise their hands, other not, many are either singing with their eyes closed or looking at the words on the digital overhead projector. There are a small few who will dance on the spot if the music is lively enough. The music can be loud, bold and lively or slow, reflective and worshipful. We have guitars, bass, drums, percussion, singers, keyboard and I play flute or recorder.

As the worship ends the pastor is up there. The pastor may spontaneously begin singing another song or two if he feels the worship should go longer, and the band improvise accordingly. Usually our pastor will use a hymn or a well-known worship chorus but it’s never sung in any way but full of life. There is some variation as to what happens next. The pastor may call for the ushers to come to carry out communion or offertory, and the pastor’s wife (also a pastor) will make the announcements. Sometimes there is a skit, a dance item or something else by one of the church groups – the dance items are usually done by the Sunday school, they have a couple of girls who learn dancing and they’re very good. Another Sunday school girl has an excellent voice too.

Then we have the message. Our pastor comes from India, and he comes from a line of Christian church pastors. The way he preaches is animated, and he has several different body and hand movements that he falls into. He likes to get us to say things to our neighbours at various times and will often say “Amen?” at the end of a sentence, implying a response from us to say “Amen” back, and since a lot of us used to be in conservative chuches and since we are asian it’s not always easy for us to respond naturally! But we do try, and sometimes our pastor asks (in passing) why we’re so quiet. He likes to be preached back to, so to speak. He is young, only 28 but his maturity is great – he grew up surrounded by church life and had the opportunity to learn under many pastors, as well as being preaching full-time when he was 18. He has always been serving in the church. He still has a quirky sense of humour that seems almost child-like. He’s not perfect, and sometimes if he gets too excited there are one or two illustrations that have us cringing. But its his spirit and the principle that we catch, and that edifies us.

The message format varies too. Our pastor creatively adds visual illustrations at times. One time he had this veil and he put it on his head to convey the idea that when we take our eyes off God our vision becomes clouded and he proceeded to preach for a while with that veil on him. It looked silly but he knew we wouldn’t forget it. He’s brought me up onstage for illustrations and moved me around to make a point. Recently he’s stopped in the middle of his sermons and a member of the congregation gets up to share his testimony, which is relevant to the topic preached.

As Pentecostal churches go we are not extremely “out there” as other churches are, but we are lively and looking in that direction. At times we will pray as a congregation for people and sometimes people will come out and lay their hands on someone to pray for them. The word of God is an important part of the service, and the way the message is preached is usually on the basis of principles. For example, we are going through a series on faith. The message is made up of principles on faith and the bible passages used illustrate this principle, even if only in a small part of the bible. It is not an academic in-depth bible lecture, but the pastor will speak in relation to everyday life when it comes to applying these principles. And we catch the idea. The service may end pretty much after the message. Sometimes the worship team will end off on one song, it depends on the pastor’s discretion.

This is how it is now, and we’ve only been around about 8 months. The nature of our church is that the pastor looks after the feeding and teaching of the word to the congregation. The ministries are mostly started up by people in the congregation who have a burden for it, and the pastor doesn’t run it. He keeps in communication with the leaders but they are pretty free to run the ministries as they see fit. The idea is that if people are led by the Spirit of God, then you don’t have to worry about the way they do things so much. We have a lot of ministries sprouting up, from worship to community outreach to drama, dance, men’s and women’s ministries, etc. The format of the church service is easily flexible and not defined by a routine, or won’t be… we set up a routine to start off with but we will be gradually moving to do things differently. We’re always changing things to make it better, and we’re not about tradition at all.

In terms of dress, we dress the way all normal people do. We dress smart casual, the youth dress however and only the worship team and pastors have more of a dress code. The pastor is always in a black suit, and the worship guys need collared shirts, long pants and good shoes, no sneakers.

When it comes to spiritual gifts, at the moment what we see is tongues mainly. People are free to worship in tongues or not, we are open and have no hang-ups about that. Sometimes when the Spirit impresses upon the pastor he will give a prophetic word to certain people and sometimes pray for them. We use tongues mainly for between us and God when praying or singing, even when we pray in a group it’s us all praying to God and not needing to be understood by each other. I’ve been in other churches where messages in tongues were given, and then interpreted and these have encouraged everyone present because the message was for them. We don’t seem to operate in the other supernatural gifts much apart from that at the moment, but we certainly believe in them. There is one guy in the church who does receive words from God and he shares them with the appropriate people. He did approach me once and said God had given him the message to pass on to me that he was pleased with my worship that day because it was from the heart, and I hadn’t always been worshipping with the worship team that way. That encouraged me. I guess I’d been kinda waiting for the rebuke or prod from God, but he waited for a time to encourage me instead. cont'd

[Asar'el]

I haven't read Who Moved the Stone yet. I read from a critic that the author reaches the conclusion that the Gospels are perfectly true only by starting with the assumption that the Gospels are perfectly true. I don't know if that criticism is true since I haven't read the book. But now that I think about it, even the title of the book seems to confirm that criticism. There is little use asking, "Who moved the stone?" to provide evidence for the truth of the Gospels when we don't know anything about the stone except from the Gospels in question.
It has been a long time since I read the book; but for me, what it did was lead me to examine the things I thought were true. It is not that he used the question 'Who moved the stone?' to prove the gospels were true - rather, I remember it making a strong argument that there was a stone, and one Jesus Christ that was burried, and whose body was no longer in the tomb. And for a variety of reasons, the explanations of the gospels is the only valid one.

But we don't have to talk about that with your permission. Tell me about that time when you were an atheist.
I was born in a socialist country, where religion was widely discouraged (if not actively persecuted). For a long time I believed science had all the answers, and religion was a weird phenomenon I could not reasonably explain - but it didn't bother me.

In exchange, I will tell you about the time I was a believer in Christ.
I find it mildly amusing when people talk of being 'former Christians' who have 'found the truth', especially when they ridicule the concept of 'former atheists' who 'find the Truth'.

Forgive my bluntness: but, the way I see it, I am in a very different boat; I know what it is to be an atheist (and it's not difficult). I do not believe a true Christian can loose salvation - therefore, noone is trully a 'former Christian'.

There we can never quite be the same; for while it is easy to be an atheist and convert, I hold it to be impossible to be a Christian, and fall away; I hope, if you wish to talk about this, that we won't go along that road.

[goodoldboy]

Asar'el, what was your former country?

[rapturefish]

The important thing about the service and the church is that the Spirit is welcomed in the church. To us the Holy Spirit is a person, is real and we live and breathe in his presence and power all the time. People have been trusting God in more and more things and God has provided for people. He led one couple to find the right house after a previous offer suddenly closed off on them. Another person prayed for a new job and he had this sense that God would give him a job that week. He told his fiancé that he would get a job that week and he got one right on the last day, one that was hard to get. Another man was healed of leukaemia, another man’s diabetes was halted and his blood sugar levels dropped dramatically. All these things have been shared to the whole congregation and with no directive from the pastor other than “Could you share something this Sunday?”

We don’t often talk about non-charismatic churches. Our conversations tend to focus on the things God is doing in our lives and we just can’t get enough of him. For me, I’ve been through that stage of charismatic versus non-charismatic and now being what is called Spirit-filled is pretty normative. I have friends from my previous church and they are still curious about the phenomenon and I tell them my story and what I know, but it’s really up to them whether they want to know more. I don’t press any agendas. I am fully aware of their hang-ups – they are used to not raising their hands or speaking in tongues and are quite unsure of what to make of it all. Some think that it’s a style, others think that charismatics get carried away with the emotions of the moment and have no brain. What I tell them patiently is that it’s all one thing – the Spirit of God has renewed by desire and it’s natural for me to raise my hands and speak in tongues because the Spirit in me gives me the desire to do so. To have the Spirit of God alive, near and so close is the kind of God I’ve always hungered after, and these last few years have been just full, full of that kind of relationship.

To us, Satan is a defeated person. He cannot actually do much now that Jesus broke the power of death over our lives. But he doesn’t go down without a fight. If he’s lost the battle for our life in Jesus, he will do anything to discourage us, make us doubt and make us think we’ve lost even though we have won. Whenever we are set upon by something discouraging, a situation, an calamity or some doubt, we choose to respond to it by speaking the promises of God. There is a constant battle for truth in our lives and it will never stop until we leave this life and be in heaven with God. Satan has been given a measure of freedom to roam in this world, but his time is doomed. We have the word of God to counteract any lie that he tells us. And as we worship by focusing on God’s character and his deeds for us, we get a truer perspective on how things are in the spiritual realm. Because Satan is one angel who fell and God is GOD, we need to have that vision clear in our minds. Satan can make it distorted such that God appears distant and he the powerful one. Once we set our minds to reject that and believe what God says instead, Satan is exposed and we win.

I believed this sort of thing before I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues. But I never had a sense of victory or that I had the power to win until the Spirit baptism came along. Only then did those principles actually have power and I didn’t feel I ran on empty. I still make mistakes and fall into sinful habits – having the Spirit doesn’t mean I’m spiritually more mature – but once I come back to God and worship him, repent of my sin and believe again that I am forgiven as God has promised, the reality is restored and the guilt and shame go away.

Living a life with God should by default be supernatural. We need to believe that God is bigger than what we can conceive and that he can do things through us that we could not dream of doing in our limited humanness. It is a life where steps of faith are always to be made, being saved is just the first in a lifetime of steps made in the same way. You believe the promises of God. Your mindset changes to accept it and you take that step forward and act on it. And God comes through as he promised. Any obstacles to faith must be removed for it to work. Sin gets in the way. Doubting, not letting go of other issues, unforgiveness, etc. can all impede the work of the Spirit in a person.cont'd

[rapturefish]

Verses such as Jeremiah 29:11, Psalm 91 and "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" (in Philippians somewhere) are just two of many verses that come up often.

I have been to other charismatic meetings where a lot of other things have occurred. I attended one meeting outside church prior to receiving tongues where a woman came and gave a message, she was said to have a prophetic gifting. The worship before that message went on for a very long time and I enjoyed it. The music was very lively and everyone was hands raised, dancing and singing, there was also this mad recorder player who could play by ear.

Once the message was given (it was on Mary and Martha) we were invited to come up to receive if we wanted to. EVERYONE got up except for two of us, and the other person was from my church. As the woman laid hands and prayed for people (quietly I might add), people either fell down, broke into fits of laughter of shook on the floor. The recorder player was on the edge of falling over even before having hands laid on him. It was all very surreal. I should have been irked but in fact I was totally at peace about it. I just sat there watching and praying and just felt really at peace watching all this, even though I couldn’t get it.

In the Vineyard church, the format is worship with lights turned low for an intimate feel. After three songs, the worship team stops and everyone waits in silence. Then people from the congregation will stand up in turn and share a picture or a word or a tongue that God has impressed upon them to share. After a few of those, the cycle starts again, three worship songs, stop, sharing a word, etc. Then comes a pretty biblically sound message and after that people either pray for others or are prayed for themselves. Often they will have one person pray for a person by laying hand on them, while another will pray in tongues quietly, waiting for God to lead them as to how to pray. It’s all very gentle, and the encouragement is wonderful.

At Hillsong it’s several songs, then watching church news on video, then a message about tithing as the offertory is quickly collected, then an awesome, animated message. Then worship to finish off. Anybody wishing to stay for a healing service afterwards is welcome to stay. That’s where all the tongues and praying for each other, prophetic words and so on happen, seperate from the main service.

At another charismatic church they worship with a few songs and then they have a coffee break (we all sit at coffee tables) before having a pretty solid but alive biblical message. Then worship at the end.

In one or two of the charismatic churches I went to they always had banners with a name for God or a slogan or bible verse on it. They changed these banners every week or few weeks, they had so many of them. The preacher loved to preach and so the services blew out to over two hours. Our current church also goes to two hours and it’s quite normal. It doesn’t tend to feel long the way we worship, but others may think otherwise.

Sorry that I've written so very much! Hopefully that can give you more of an idea of how charismatic churches are. They can be different between each other but they tend to have that presence of the Spirit in them, just something in the air that says that God is here.

blessings,

RF :D <><

[Asar'el]

Asar'el, what was your former country?
Romania

[Machiavelli]

Hi Goodoldboy,

I'm not sure if I'm unique in making these comments in this thread, but I'd have to agree with you on your comments about McDowell. I just don't think that he's very good. I've heard of other Christians sing his praises and I just end up confused - the guy is truly mediocre as an apologetic writer.

Because I'm trained in philosophy (as you may have guessed from my handle), and am currently completing the last eighteen months of a law degree, I've been systematically taught to question, and question vigourously. I've also been taught to doubt and to find logical errors in various pieces of writing. In that respect, I've come to regard most Christian apologetics as pretty poor. Of course, I feel that the same criticism can be levelled at much of the freethought literature around. Maybe I'm simply a more skeptical person who demands a higher burden of proof and no fudging of the logical process.

In all of my reading only ever found one Christian apologetic writer that I can truly recommend while retaining any sense of intellectual integrity - Ravi Zacharias. The only problem is that his strong point is a philosophical defence, rather than a scientific or a historical defence of the Christian faith, which means that he doesn't really address the pertinent questions involving the resurrection of Jesus, or not to my knowledge, anyway.

Stay in touch,
Machiavelli

[goodoldboy]

Romania I checked the CIA World Factbook and I gave myself a brief education on Romania. Apparently, communism was stamped out of the government only as recently as 1996. Then I looked at the religious demographics of Romania. It said:
Eastern Orthodox (including all sub-denominations) 87%, Protestant 6.8%, Catholic 5.6%, other (mostly Muslim) 0.4%, unaffiliated 0.2% (2002)If atheism dominated Romania at the same time communism did, that would mean atheism was tossed out the door like a jug of spoiled milk by all but 1 in 500 Romanians. Is that true?

[goodoldboy]

Hi Goodoldboy,

I'm not sure if I'm unique in making these comments in this thread, but I'd have to agree with you on your comments about McDowell. I just don't think that he's very good. I've heard of other Christians sing his praises and I just end up confused - the guy is truly mediocre as an apologetic writer.

Because I'm trained in philosophy (as you may have guessed from my handle), and am currently completing the last eighteen months of a law degree, I've been systematically taught to question, and question vigourously. I've also been taught to doubt and to find logical errors in various pieces of writing. In that respect, I've come to regard most Christian apologetics as pretty poor. Of course, I feel that the same criticism can be levelled at much of the freethought literature around. Maybe I'm simply a more skeptical person who demands a higher burden of proof and no fudging of the logical process.

In all of my reading only ever found one Christian apologetic writer that I can truly recommend while retaining any sense of intellectual integrity - Ravi Zacharias. The only problem is that his strong point is a philosophical defence, rather than a scientific or a historical defence of the Christian faith, which means that he doesn't really address the pertinent questions involving the resurrection of Jesus, or not to my knowledge, anyway.

Stay in touch,
Machiavelli Thanks, Machiavelli. I haven't read anything from Ravi Zacharias, but I am a quarter of my way through The Prince & the Discourses, which I find to be interesting and educational. There is reason in it that can explain why the war against rebellious Muslims is failing.

What is your most recommended literature by Ravi Zacharias?

[goodoldboy]

rapturefish, thank you very much. I have received an education from you about charismatic churches. It seems to reflect what I have seen in my one experience in a charismatic church, and it even has many of the elements of my old church.

Just for a great thinking challenge, I am going to make make a hypothetical question for you. I am going to describe a church. It isn't your church, although it is much like your church. Here is that church:


As you walk in on Sunday morning, people greet you at the door.
The pastor tells the congregation to say something encouraging about God or the Holy Spirit to one another before beginning the service.
There is an overhead projector to help you with the lyrics of the songs of worship to God.
There is a variety of skilled musicians and a good sound system.
The pastor sings.
His preaching is accompanied by appropriate music.
There are entertaining skits and dance performances.
The pastor asks for enthusiastic agreement at the end of each important point.
The pastor asks why you don't agree loudly enough.
The pastor is very suave, well-dressed and likable.
The pastor makes use of props.
The congregation lays down their hands on someone to pray for them.
The congregation raises their hands, dances, and shouts during the singing.
The congregation is fully convinced that the Holy Spirit is filling the room.
The most-oft repeated verses are ones that give encouragement and a sense of victory over the Devil.
There is a lighting system that helps control the mood of the congregation.
There are banners with slogans that reflect the pastor's teaching.
The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the church. It is far, far away. Nobody in the church has any contact with the Holy Spirit. God has forsaken this church and left it to its own devices.
Now here is your question: if you went to such a church, would you be able to discern that the Holy Spirit is nowhere about?

[Asar'el]

I checked the CIA World Factbook and I gave myself a brief education on Romania. Apparently, communism was stamped out of the government only as recently as 1996.
Well, depends on what you believe, lol; I myself was out of the country by that time; but from what I hear, the government changed name, but a lot stayed the same...

Then I looked at the religious demographics of Romania. It said:
If atheism dominated Romania at the same time communism did, that would mean atheism was tossed out the door like a jug of spoiled milk by all but 1 in 500 Romanians. Is that true?
Religion (especially the offical orthodox) was never persectued, per se in the communist regime; it was just... discouraged... (suppressed, though that can bring up too negative a view...)

Political education classes taught at the time, however, were quite clear on the teaching of religion as opium for the masses...

I understand religion is a lot more free these days, back in the 'ole country... at least people aren't as apprehensive about declaring religious beliefs. I have no idea what the schools teach there now...

At the time, as I say, the religion of my parents (nominal orthodox, ie. they were not practicing, just an understanding that they believed in God...) was completely eliminated in me in school. Science was my answer to everything...

[rapturefish]

Hi goodoldboy,

It depends on whether the connection between myself and God is "in tune" and whether God reveals it to me or not. As said previously, there are factors that nurture that flow of the Holy Spirit and others that impede it. Regardless of that though, God is gracious and may speak at any time no matter where I am with Him.

Actually, something like this has happened to me. Earlier this year my previous church had a sudden split that occurred between the pastors and it was pretty confusing. In the end I didn't know what to do, whether to stay at my current chuch or join the new one. So I decided to stick with the old church for the time being and see what happened.

I dealt with the anger and pain by surrendering it to God, and the healing took a lot less time than it would have otherwise. Thanks to previous conflicts I was better able to know what to do. Once that was surrendered though, I found that I could not worship as I could normally do for the next three Sundays.

The usual service was there, and there was still enough of a full worship team, the same message, the same everything minus half the congregation that had gone over to the new church. I couldn't work it out. Somehow I felt an emptiness there, a lack of presence.

I shared this with a friend who had just decided to go over to the new church. I was surprised when she told me, "if that happens, then perhaps think that it might not be you?" It turned out that she felt the same way, and it was not physically discernible. But once she joined the new church, things went really well. I did visit the new church one week as they had their official opening, and it just felt like the other half of the church only the presence of God was strong there. It's just something from within that you sense with, for lack of a better description. i can't claim to always have been spot on with these spiritual sensings, but I do remember the times I have been spot on, and it's all God's doing.

I liken this relationship with the illustration of the vine and the branches in John 17 or thereabouts. If we remain in the vine, then we will bear fruit. We cannot lose our salvation on the basis of our works, neither can we gain it. But I do believe that when we choose to disconnect with the Lord, our life will fade much as a branch dies if the connection is impeded or cut from the vine. It may not happen immediately, but our spiritual life will fade as our disconnection (or dysconnection) continues. We are saved by the free gift of God, but our refusal of the blessings of that gift is ours to make.

Even as a non-Spirit-filled christian I could tell there was a power in the charismatic church I entered when I was still suffering from that conflict. And I could feel a complete lack of that presence when in another church that was more conservative. Now this is not to say this is the same for all churches of respective denominations, but that was my experience.

I will add that there are no perfect churches, and even charismatic churches are not the exception here. Sometimes the Spirit is sought after at the expense of a loving and gracious attitude, and has been guilty of treating non-Spirit-filled christians as second-class. Still, the fact remains that the Holy Spirit's active and living work in the life of the christian was always meant to be. And this has an intertwining relationship with the word of God.

That was a good though-provoking scenario. Thank you.

blessings,

RF :D <><

[rapturefish]

As an addendum, I also visited a few other charismatic churches in the evenings on those three Sundays I went to my old church, and could worship fine at all of them. So I concluded that the problem lay in that one church and not my own issues with dealing with forgiving that church.

cheers,

RF :D <><

[Saruman]

Once upon a time there was a guy called Josh McDowell who wanted to prove that the Bible is wrong and full of contradictions. Now he is a believer!
What a beautiful story...Isn't it strange the ways God works?

[goodoldboy]

Hi goodoldboy,

It depends on whether the connection between myself and God is "in tune" and whether God reveals it to me or not. As said previously, there are factors that nurture that flow of the Holy Spirit and others that impede it. Regardless of that though, God is gracious and may speak at any time no matter where I am with Him.

Actually, something like this has happened to me. Earlier this year my previous church had a sudden split that occurred between the pastors and it was pretty confusing. In the end I didn't know what to do, whether to stay at my current chuch or join the new one. So I decided to stick with the old church for the time being and see what happened.

I dealt with the anger and pain by surrendering it to God, and the healing took a lot less time than it would have otherwise. Thanks to previous conflicts I was better able to know what to do. Once that was surrendered though, I found that I could not worship as I could normally do for the next three Sundays.

The usual service was there, and there was still enough of a full worship team, the same message, the same everything minus half the congregation that had gone over to the new church. I couldn't work it out. Somehow I felt an emptiness there, a lack of presence.

I shared this with a friend who had just decided to go over to the new church. I was surprised when she told me, "if that happens, then perhaps think that it might not be you?" It turned out that she felt the same way, and it was not physically discernible. But once she joined the new church, things went really well. I did visit the new church one week as they had their official opening, and it just felt like the other half of the church only the presence of God was strong there. It's just something from within that you sense with, for lack of a better description. i can't claim to always have been spot on with these spiritual sensings, but I do remember the times I have been spot on, and it's all God's doing.

I liken this relationship with the illustration of the vine and the branches in John 17 or thereabouts. If we remain in the vine, then we will bear fruit. We cannot lose our salvation on the basis of our works, neither can we gain it. But I do believe that when we choose to disconnect with the Lord, our life will fade much as a branch dies if the connection is impeded or cut from the vine. It may not happen immediately, but our spiritual life will fade as our disconnection (or dysconnection) continues. We are saved by the free gift of God, but our refusal of the blessings of that gift is ours to make.

Even as a non-Spirit-filled christian I could tell there was a power in the charismatic church I entered when I was still suffering from that conflict. And I could feel a complete lack of that presence when in another church that was more conservative. Now this is not to say this is the same for all churches of respective denominations, but that was my experience.

I will add that there are no perfect churches, and even charismatic churches are not the exception here. Sometimes the Spirit is sought after at the expense of a loving and gracious attitude, and has been guilty of treating non-Spirit-filled christians as second-class. Still, the fact remains that the Holy Spirit's active and living work in the life of the christian was always meant to be. And this has an intertwining relationship with the word of God.

That was a good though-provoking scenario. Thank you.

blessings,

RF :D <>< Hey, RF, thanks again.

I am most curious about whether or not you are mistaken about the presence of the Holy Spirit. It seems like the sort of church services you describe has a lot of emotional mechanisms accompanying them. I don't know if you have ever seen Leap of Faith. It is a movie about a con-man, Steve Martin, who runs a touring ministry, and he goes from town to town holding charismatic-like services and fooling people into believing that he performs miracles so he can collect money from them. Now I am not saying that your church is a con operation, but I do suspect that there is a lot of emotional influences that can corrupt one's ability to reason properly. If the Holy Spirit is in your church, then why does the Holy Spirit need the help of a band of skilled musicians, an expensive sound and lighting system, a pastor who speaks eloquently in varying pitches asking for amens, and all the other things you told me about? If the Holy Spirit was there, then would you need all of that to make you feel elated and filled with the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't you feel the same even if the Holy Spirit WASN'T there at all?

You didn't feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in a church that you already had a suspicious grudge against, but you had a positive feeling in other charismatic churches. And you DON'T feel the Holy Spirit in more emotionally-contained conservative churches. Shouldn't that tell you the same thing I am thinking?

[goodoldboy]

hi goodoldboy

I found the book - and I am going to read it, promise :thumbsup:

[/i][/font]

Well, what do I say for a start? My belief is not an inheritance - not at all! It is a discovery, a personal encounter (figuratively speaking of course!!) with Jesus Christ - after a long journey - and thanks to God's grace alone!

anyway, .... I am gonna read it

perhaps this book might interest you - or challenge you (as it certainly would many Christians as well ...):

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm
(though it has more than 26 pages, but it's not like Calvin's institutio, which is a bit voluminous...)


Hey 5solas, I am reporting back to you that I have read the first three chapters of The Sovereignty of God and I have skimmed the fourth one. That is about the equivalent length of Why I Am Agnostic. I don't think I will manage to get through the whole book. I confess that it is difficult for me to read because it is repetitive and uninspiring to me. The author answers the toughest questions of God--why He creates some people fortunate but not others, why he chooses some to be saved but not others--by saying that God is powerful, has authority over the rest of us, and therefore does exactly as He pleases. I am left with the impression that there is no explanation for the sovereign will of God except that it is like the willy-nilly whims of a child. But the reading did expand my vocabulary somewhat.

Maybe you can suggest something else to read, and I will suggest something else for you to read.

[rapturefish]

Hey, RF, thanks again.

I am most curious about whether or not you are mistaken about the presence of the Holy Spirit. It seems like the sort of church services you describe has a lot of emotional mechanisms accompanying them. I don't know if you have ever seen Leap of Faith. It is a movie about a con-man, Steve Martin, who runs a touring ministry, and he goes from town to town holding charismatic-like services and fooling people into believing that he performs miracles so he can collect money from them. Now I am not saying that your church is a con operation, but I do suspect that there is a lot of emotional influences that can corrupt one's ability to reason properly. If the Holy Spirit is in your church, then why does the Holy Spirit need the help of a band of skilled musicians, an expensive sound and lighting system, a pastor who speaks eloquently in varying pitches asking for amens, and all the other things you told me about? If the Holy Spirit was there, then would you need all of that to make you feel elated and filled with the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't you feel the same even if the Holy Spirit WASN'T there at all?

All those "bells and whistles" are expressions of the Holy Spirit in people, and they also help to edify the congregation. The service is all about getting a focus on God, and he has graciously provided worship, dance, messages, etc. all for that purpose. There is everything right about doing this. King David danced to see the ark return, it was his expression as motivated by the Spirit of God. The psalms he wrote were often written in times of oppression and despair, expressions of his circumstances shifting to a focus on the promises of God and his character. Those Psalms may have been motivated by a need for the Holy Spirit's presence, and composing a psalm itself also helped to bring that focus as opposed to remaining focused on his circumstances. There is a sense in which it works both ways.

I have already said that I was part of a church that had all those vehicles of worship in place. Yet when trying to worship at one stage the presence wasn't there. I could well have had grudges against both churches equally, both those issues had been dealt with. If I still held anything against those churches I would not have been able to worship at either, much less likely other churches, charismatic or not. I didn't like my choices when the church split so I should have been unable to worship at either church if I had issues of forgiving the church. But the fact that I could worship at all the charismatic churches I visited around that time except for this one church showed that the issue likely lay with that church.

Worship works to put people in a mindset of worship. That focus as a body has an effect on the Spirit within us to build. It doesn't have to be all those fancy gadgets at all. I was in Papua New Guinea twice in the last year period and they don't have more than an out-of-tune guitar at times. But the presence of God is still there; the people worship right from their hearts and it flows out.

There have been times when I've been at Hillsong and my heart wasn't in the right frame of mind to worship. That resistance made for less effective worship on my part. A receptive heart is needed for worship. It's interesting that the first time I went to Hillsong I was very much an overly critical thinker and all I got was noise. Since being Spirit-filled the effect of the worship there has changed on me and I can worship now. It's still as loud as ever, I can tell you, but something in my spirit can worship.

[QUOTE] You didn't feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in a church that you already had a suspicious grudge against, but you had a positive feeling in other charismatic churches. And you DON'T feel the Holy Spirit in more emotionally-contained conservative churches. Shouldn't that tell you the same thing I am thinking[QUOTE]

It tells me that where the Spirit is not welcomed, the worship suffers, whether the music or whatever is good or not. I mentioned before the Vineyard church, whose worship style traditionally is quite gentle and deliberately so in order to worship in an orderly manner. They take that to mean a very sober atmosphere of worship and the pauses between sets of songs means there is no flow that gets emotionally "charged up". Interestingly, the presence in the Vineyard church I went to was pretty strong and the use of gifts was not only edifying, but some of the pictures and words spoken actually spoke to my situation.

As for the movie "leap of faith" (I believe it was based on the ministry and person of Benny Hinn) - no, I haven't seen it but I have heard of it. I have said before that it is possible that some might be carried away by the atmosphere generated by the scenario described in previous posts. But there is as great a danger in conservative churches that a complete lack of atmosphere is stifling to worship. We are always encouraged to be discerning by way of the word, and that is why a good grounding in scripture is to be emphasized. A preacher may say the wrong thing, and people may make mistakes, but as long the word is there in us we can sort it out. Our pastor says himself, if you don't agree with what I am saying, go ahead. And the fact is, I do disagree on some things he's said. But we do have a relationship with the same Jesus and that is the important thing.

It is part of the ongoing debate of church worship that engages with the issues you've mentioned. Certainly we need to let the Holy Spirit be present in the church when we worship. And place must be given for the word. I'm not saying charismatic-styled worship is perfect, though it has a lot of great things about it. But, compared to the lack of the Spirit's presence in some conservative churches (as far as I've experienced at least) I'd rather be in a church that is alive.

cheers,

RF :D <><

[Telrunya]

Josh McDowell is great. I love his writtings and hope to hear him speak sometime. I get more milage though from Lee Stroble's works "A Case for Faith" and "A Case for Jesus" when talking with non believers who want proof. I think Stroble covers more angles to the issues than McDowell does and it's in an easier to read format of discussions with various Phd's.