Why do we choose not to depict

[aReformedPatriot]

Why do we choose not to depict Christ on the cross like the RC do?

[SumTinWong]

It was told to me that we don't have them because Jesus is not on that cross anymore. On the other hand why don't we wear empty tombs around our necks, since he aint there either?

[ZiSunka]

Yep, because he's no longer on the cross, the work is done, we are free and he is alive!

[aReformedPatriot]

Thats what I was thinking, i couldnt be sure. Thanks! Now on the reciprocal, why do they depict him on the cross?

[Sword-In-Hand]

I would have less of a problem if the true tragedy of the cross was depicted on an emblem. This picture of Jesus with unscarred skin and blood not flowing down is just a pretty image. Jesus on the cross was a gruesome sight. The cross is a catch-22 subject. We as Christians love it because if not for the cross and Jesus' crucifixion we are without hope, but in the same manner we hate it because it is where our Lord was tortured for our sins. If someone wants to depict Jesus on the cross, then show the true aspect of it. That's why I think it is less depicted in other places besides the RC. In most cases, it's not shown accurately.

[ZiSunka]

Thats what I was thinking, i couldnt be sure. Thanks! Now on the reciprocal, why do they depict him on the cross?
Go to OBOB and ask. We could speculate, but not give the best answer.

[SumTinWong]

I agree with Sword. If the crosses had the beaten up images I saw at the end of the Passion, that might be at least soemthing to refelct on, that he did it all for us.

I also agree with lambslove, and the best way to get that answer is to go to the source :)

[aReformedPatriot]

Asked: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=10366413&postcount=1

[Archbishop 10-K]

Lord's Envoy and other Baptist brethren:

I just dropped by to thank you guys for coming to OBOB and asking us! I thought I'd throw this in here: I love both the cross and the crucifix. For me, though, the crucifix has a deeper meaning, because it shows me how much Our Lord loved us and how much pain He was willing to go through for us. It's kind of how Mel Gibson's film left a deep impact on many Christians who were not otherwise exposed to the image of the crucifix (and even some who were.)

[pressingon]

Why do we choose not to depict Christ on the cross like the RC do?Having grown up Catholic, and eventually ending up a Baptist, I had wondered that myself. Aside from answers already given here, I'd also heard another... that some Baptists believe depicting Christ in any form at all is sinful (idolatry), based on understanding of the second commandment (Exodus 20:4). Take Christ off the crucifix, and you've got a cross.

Personally, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's sinful, although I can see how the crucifix could become an idol for some. (For that matter, I guess the cross could become an idol for some as well.)

[SonOfThunder]

Having grown up Catholic, and eventually ending up a Baptist, I had wondered that myself. Aside from answers already given here, I'd also heard another... that some Baptists believe depicting Christ in any form at all is sinful (idolatry), based on understanding of the second commandment (Exodus 20:4). Take Christ off the crucifix, and you've got a cross.

Personally, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's sinful, although I can see how the crucifix could become an idol for some. (For that matter, I guess the cross could become an idol for some as well.)

Jehovah was very clear through The Bible about our passion to have something tangible and look to it as an idol. He knows us better than we know ourselves, Humans naturally relate to suffering with deep compassion, this becomes very real to us if we have something representing the suffering of Jesus Christ. We do tred a fine line mentally between using 'things' to worship and looking on the suffering ONLY.

Our relationship with Jehovah God has to grow past this need for visual proof. Jesus is risen and in His Glorious state.

James

[Matthan]

I agree, at least for the most part, with all of the posts on this thread. Yes, God does not want us to have (or use) anything physical as a crutch for our faith. Paul says it best when he tells us, "For we walk by faith, not by sight. That is the pure essence of a true Christian.

Matthan

[Archbishop 10-K]

I agree with SonofThunder that we don't "need" visual proof, however, it does help us better understand our faith (case in point is, once again, "The Passion of the Christ.") In the medieval period, most people couldn't read, so craftsmen created stained-glass windows and later, frescoes, to depict Biblical scenes and figures. I believe that God gave us the power to create art, and that the best thing we can do with it is use it to glorify God. Since this is a Baptist board, I won't heckle y'all with debating the issue of idolatry, but I've never seen a Baptist who didn't have at least one picture of Jesus lying around, and you can rest assured that I'm fully aware that my crucifix is just wood and metal, and is not deity in itself. For me, it's just a visual reminder of my God's love for me.

[Matthan]

By the way, Son of Thunder, congratulations on finding God's Truth. I was born into a loving Baptist family, and I have known that wonderful blessing all my life. I have often felt so very sorry for Catholics who have been so misguided by the very church they have placed their faith in (This IS NOT an attempt to bait any Catholics, so please do not take it that way!) I want to jump for Christian joy whenever I hear of someone such as yourself who has been freed from the tentacles of sinful man.

That's right, Thunder. You did not free yourself, you were freed by God. And that logically means He has other plans for you. So, grab onto the seat of your pants, hold on tight, and get ready to do His will at some point in your life. You are truly blessed by this special gift.

Matthan

[Matthan]

Archbishop 10-K, I find your "message" at the end of your post interesting. You wrote,

Proud member of the Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club: "Putting the SMACKDOWN on heresy since 1981!" Shouldn't that read "since the 10th Century?" Oh, I realize the office of the holy inquisition was not "officially" created until the 13th Century, but the RCC started persecuting "heretics" a long time before that non-august beginning. What ever happened to just rejecting heretics as Paul taught us?

Matthan

[Y_Cathol]

I don't know if this is the way that everyone else sees it, but the way that I see it is this: It was not an empty cross that saved us, It was Christ who died on that cross. To me, takeing the body off of the cross is removing the real point of the cross: Jesus' suffering for our sins. Yes, He is raised, but He suffered, immesurably, and to take the body off is to me, a way to try to forget His suffering, and the cruelty of our indifference when we sin. - The way I see it is: Each time we sin, we participate in the scourging, and the crucifixion.

- And thanks for coming to us and asking! It means a lot.:)

[Archbishop 10-K]

Archbishop 10-K, I find your "message" at the end of your post interesting. You wrote, Shouldn't that read "since the 10th Century?" Oh, I realize the office of the holy inquisition was not "officially" created until the 13th Century, but the RCC started persecuting "heretics" a long time before that non-august beginning. What ever happened to just rejecting heretics as Paul taught us?

MatthanAww, ya shoulda PM'd me! I don't particularly like debating on denominational boards (either I get warned or the thread gets locked), but I guess I set myself up for that one, eh? Well, anyway, Cardinal Ratzinger has been in office since 1981, hence the given date. And rejecting heretics is pretty much all the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith or "Inquisition" does nowadays (and besides, we don't mess with you guys anymore either.) I'd agree that execution is going over the line, but I'm not holding a grudge against Protestants for Henry VIII, Elizabeth, and Cromwell killing my Catholic ancestors. Those are human failures. So please don't hold a grudge against us, either.

[FreeinChrist]

Why do we choose not to depict Christ on the cross like the RC do?

Because we serve a Risen Saviour, one who conquered death and sits at the right hand of God. The cross isn't the end of the story .... :)

[aReformedPatriot]

Matthan, Archbishop 10-K

No need to get Hostile now gents.

[SonOfThunder]

By the way, Son of Thunder, congratulations on finding God's Truth. I was born into a loving Baptist family, and I have known that wonderful blessing all my life. I have often felt so very sorry for Catholics who have been so misguided by the very church they have placed their faith in (This IS NOT an attempt to bait any Catholics, so please do not take it that way!) I want to jump for Christian joy whenever I hear of someone such as yourself who has been freed from the tentacles of sinful man.

That's right, Thunder. You did not free yourself, you were freed by God. And that logically means He has other plans for you. So, grab onto the seat of your pants, hold on tight, and get ready to do His will at some point in your life. You are truly blessed by this special gift.

Matthan
I did not grow up a Catholic, I did find what I was in was false in major areas and do not profess to have truth myslef, in fact quite the opposite. Life is full of confusion on who has truth and if my salvation is secure.


James

[ZiSunka]

I did not grow up a Catholic, I did find what I was in was false in major areas and do not profess to have truth myslef, in fact quite the opposite. Life is full of confusion on who has truth and if my salvation is secure.


James
I'll be praying that you will find Truth and security in the Lord.:prayer:

[GreenEyedLady]

I don't know if this is the way that everyone else sees it, but the way that I see it is this: It was not an empty cross that saved us, It was Christ who died on that cross. To me, takeing the body off of the cross is removing the real point of the cross: Jesus' suffering for our sins. Yes, He is raised, but He suffered, immesurably, and to take the body off is to me, a way to try to forget His suffering, and the cruelty of our indifference when we sin. - The way I see it is: Each time we sin, we participate in the scourging, and the crucifixion.

- And thanks for coming to us and asking! It means a lot.:)
Many many many men were scrouged and hung on a cross. Christ was not the only man that this happened to. He was not the only one beated, spit on, stripped naked and nailed. This is probally the biggest reason why Christ is not on our cross in the church. Its not that he died on the cross, its that HE BEAT DEATH, HE WON THE VICTORY!!!!
Yes, his death paid for our sins, but its the fact that he was God manifested in the flesh, its the glory of his resurrection that gives us evidence to call him Messiah.
GEL

[FreeinChrist]

oops...:)

[Y_Cathol]

Many many many men were scrouged and hung on a cross. Christ was not the only man that this happened to. He was not the only one beated, spit on, stripped naked and nailed. This is probally the biggest reason why Christ is not on our cross in the church. Its not that he died on the cross, its that HE BEAT DEATH, HE WON THE VICTORY!!!!
Yes, his death paid for our sins, but its the fact that he was God manifested in the flesh, its the glory of his resurrection that gives us evidence to call him Messiah.
GEL
And by the same token, Christ is God. Christ died on that cross, so it is not an empty cross that saved us, but Christ who suffered the scourging, and died on that cross who saved us, hence the reason why the Body is on the cross.

[ZiSunka]

And by the same token, Christ is God. Christ died on that cross, so it is not an empty cross that saved us, but Christ who suffered the scourging, and died on that cross who saved us, hence the reason why the Body is on the cross.
Not wishing to engage you in an illgeal debate, but the work is all done on the cross, Christ was tortured and did die on the cross, but then he arose and showed us that death is not the victor, that Christ is. That is why we depict the cross empty, because death doesn't get to win, Christ overcame death! :clap:

It's not his time on the cross that saves us, it's his death and resurrection that paid for our sins.:)

[Archbishop 10-K]

Since there are good arguements for both sides, I suppose it's just a matter of personal preference. I guess we Catholics are biased towards the crucifix because we focus more on the passion and sacrifice of Our Lord for our iniquities, while you Baptist guys focus more on the resurrection and the hope of the life of the world to come. Both are very big theological points, expressed by two symbols. I suppose it would be ideal if we could find a balance between the two. For this reason, I use both symbols interchangably (and for one thing, the cross is easier to draw.)

I do think there is one main benefit about the crucifix not yet mentioned: in my generation, at least, the cross has been transformed into a mainstream fashion statement, so that even the pagans and atheists at my school wear the cross. When I wear the crucifix, though, it is unmistakably Jesus Christ, and thus, gives off the message "hey! This is a Christian symbol!" You know what I mean?

Just my two cents......

[SumTinWong]

Great points archbishop!

[Y_Cathol]

Since there are good arguements for both sides, I suppose it's just a matter of personal preference. I guess we Catholics are biased towards the crucifix because we focus more on the passion and sacrifice of Our Lord for our iniquities, while you Baptist guys focus more on the resurrection and the hope of the life of the world to come. Both are very big theological points, expressed by two symbols. I suppose it would be ideal if we could find a balance between the two. For this reason, I use both symbols interchangably (and for one thing, the cross is easier to draw.)

I do think there is one main benefit about the crucifix not yet mentioned: in my generation, at least, the cross has been transformed into a mainstream fashion statement, so that even the pagans and atheists at my school wear the cross. When I wear the crucifix, though, it is unmistakably Jesus Christ, and thus, gives off the message "hey! This is a Christian symbol!" You know what I mean?

Just my two cents......
:clap: There is the other thing... I see a lot of ppl wearing a plain cross, more as a fashion statement, and so it is difficult to tell whether the person is a Christion or not. - Crucifix is a definite answer...

but, i suppose that both are fine to wear :D

[aReformedPatriot]

:clap: There is the other thing... I see a lot of ppl wearing a plain cross, more as a fashion statement, and so it is difficult to tell whether the person is a Christion or not. - Crucifix is a definite answer...

I definitly wouldnt say anyone depicting the crucified savior around thier neck is a hands up christian. Most of the people I know now dont wear jewlery but when i was in high school I had several "christian" friends engaging in the same pagan practices as me bearing that symbol. If they were true Christians I might as well lighten up and go have a goooood time ;)

[Garuda]

I spend a lot of time on the streets as a law enforcement officer. I really just want to say that it really goes both ways - i see about equal amounts of bling bling crosses and crucifixes nowadays.

[Y_Cathol]

I spend a lot of time on the streets as a law enforcement officer. I really just want to say that it really goes both ways - i see about equal amounts of bling bling crosses and crucifixes nowadays.
It is actually sad that it happens, but it is meant to be a symbollic profession of faith...

[aReformedPatriot]

It is actually sad that it happens, but it is meant to be a symbollic profession of faith...
Sad yes. I find myself wanting to rip it off peoples necks and ask why they are wearing it

[Y_Cathol]

I definitly wouldnt say anyone depicting the crucified savior around thier neck is a hands up christian. Most of the people I know now dont wear jewlery but when i was in high school I had several "christian" friends engaging in the same pagan practices as me bearing that symbol. If they were true Christians I might as well lighten up and go have a goooood time ;)
I don't mean whether a person is living their faith or not, I mean baptised, or unbaptised... but as someone above so eloquently put it, both are becoming "bling bling":)

[aReformedPatriot]

I don't mean whether a person is living their faith or not, I mean baptised, or unbaptised... but as someone above so eloquently put it, both are becoming "bling bling":)
haha yea.

What does baptism have to do with anything?

[Y_Cathol]

haha yea.

What does baptism have to do with anything?
Baptism is the first step in Christianity. To be baptised is to be a part of the family of Christ.

Now my point was that I found it more difficult to see who they are with a cross, where a crucifix is easier... because those that are not baptised Christians wear the cross merely as decoration. :)

[John 15:13]

Yep, because he's no longer on the cross, the work is done, we are free and he is alive!
Thank God He is risen! Because He lives, I have power and authority!

[SumTinWong]

Baptism is the first step in Christianity. To be baptised is to be a part of the family of Christ. I thought belief in the Christ was?

[Lynn73]

Baptism is the first step in Christianity. To be baptised is to be a part of the family of Christ.

Now my point was that I found it more difficult to see who they are with a cross, where a crucifix is easier... because those that are not baptised Christians wear the cross merely as decoration. :)The first step in Christianity, if that's how you want to word it, is to believe on Christ as Savior. One cannot become a Christian without doing so. To be born again, spiritually, if you will. A person can be dunked in water and still not know Christ as Savior. If you're talking about spiritual baptism where Christ adds to His church daily those who are being saved, I could agree. But I can never believe that putting someone in water will save them if there's been no change in their heart.

P.S. Even if I had never been baptized, the wearing of the cross for me would NOT be as decoration.

[Y_Cathol]

The first step in Christianity, if that's how you want to word it, is to believe on Christ as Savior. One cannot become a Christian without doing so. To be born again, spiritually, if you will. A person can be dunked in water and still not know Christ as Savior. If you're talking about spiritual baptism where Christ adds to His church daily those who are being saved, I could agree. But I can never believe that putting someone in water will save them if there's been no change in their heart.

P.S. Even if I had never been baptized, the wearing of the cross for me would NOT be as decoration.
Maybe I should rephrase... those who are baptised receive their second birth, their birth in Christ - and are recieved into the Church. - and Yes, your heart is important... ie. if I am baptised, but don't live as I should, but call myself a christian, then I am living a falsehood - the next step is the Confirmation... A maturity in the Church (But not necessarily Spiritually)... But once again, the way I act is important - "And so, by their fruits, you will know them...". And I speak of Non Christians that wear it for decoration... not Christians.

[Y_Cathol]

Look... in NO way was I trying to insult or "flame" anybody here - (It seems that certain members are upset at my arguments... My arguments (Aside from the one where I stat why I choose as a Catholic to wear the crucifix) Were not meant to be theological... nor were they to downplay anybody.... My point is merely this:

It is sad that the symbol of faith that we, as Christians, wear around our necks is to many people merely a decoration, which makes it sometimes difficult to distinguish them... (Which may be a little off topic;) )

But I sincerely appologise if I have been misunderstood... because my intention was never to offend anybody!:blush:

[SumTinWong]

Look... in NO way was I trying to insult or "flame" anybody here - (It seems that certain members are upset at my arguments... My arguments (Aside from the one where I stat why I choose as a Catholic to wear the crucifix) Were not meant to be theological... nor were they to downplay anybody.... My point is merely this:

It is sad that the symbol of faith that we, as Christians, wear around our necks is to many people merely a decoration, which makes it sometimes difficult to distinguish them... (Which may be a little off topic;) )

But I sincerely appologise if I have been misunderstood... because my intention was never to offend anybody!:blush: I don't see anyone getting upset or saying that you flamed anyone. You stated your position and we asked to clarify. No big deal. :)

[Y_Cathol]

I don't see anyone getting upset or saying that you flamed anyone. You stated your position and we asked to clarify. No big deal. :)
:) Thanks... The reason I thought that ppl were getting upset is that the theology of Christianity was getting pulled in... "The first step in Christianity..." - not meaning to be 100% accurate ie. Not trying to put a catechism on here, I wrote that... and then got corrected... :D

It would take a lot more than a line to show the entire Christian journey!!! ;)

[SumTinWong]

Amen :)