Belief in Jesus alone for salvation [Archive]

Matthan

10th November 2004, 01:11 AM

Your pastor is right on the money with his pronouncement. He is paraphrasing John 3:16, which is quite possibly the most famous and yet the most ignored verse in Scripture. Think about it for just a moment. Jesus Himself told us a promise from God. It is the singular most important promise contained in Scripture. For whosoever believes in Him (Jesus, the only begotten Son of God) will receive eternal salvation. That is all that is required for eternal life -- simple yet heartfelt belief in Jesus being the Son of God!

Now, since Jesus spoke those words, man has taken it upon himself to add various other requirements for salvation. That is one of the main reasons we have so many denominations. But, if Jesus tells us so clearly that simple belief in Him is all that is required for our salvation, who are we to doubt Him or doubt exactly what He tells us? Furthermore, if you read the entire 3rd Chapter of John, you will find at least four times that He tells us EXACTLY the same thing -- our simple belief leads to our salvation. (See John 3:15, 16, 18 and 36) he even explains why this is so in that Chapter.

I hope this helps.

Matthan

aReformedPatriot

10th November 2004, 01:15 AM

Matthan

10th November 2004, 01:31 AM

That's right, Envoy. Our pastor usually calls a pause in our last hymn, between the next to last and last verses, and asks if anyone has been touched by the Holy Spirit and wants to come forward. Same thing, so I'd say the paster in question in this thread is right on the money. Wouldn't you?

Matthan

aReformedPatriot

10th November 2004, 01:32 AM

Oh yea totally - I cant imagine not proclaiming the Lord's salvation at the end of a service meant to worship him. It should be done.

Matthan

10th November 2004, 01:39 AM

The Book of John is full of reminders about simple belief. Even as he started his Gospel, he mentioned it. Check out John 1:12 to see what I mean.

Matthan

JPPT1974

10th November 2004, 01:39 AM

Jesus is the one and only way to salvation. And he is the one and only way to his Father God. As if you repent and accept him into your heart as Savior and Lord.

SonOfThunder

10th November 2004, 01:40 AM

aReformedPatriot

10th November 2004, 01:46 AM

ok, thank you for replying.

Is it as simple as belief in Jesus? and what is receiving HIM?

I grew up as one of Jehovah's Witnesses and believe in Jesus. When I was searching out Scripture and asking in this forum about various things my beleif was not sufficient. So how precise does belief in Jesus have to be and what is receiving HIM?

James
Recieving him is as simple as inviting him into your heart. Do you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and have you confessed with your mouth that he is your Lord? If you have you are saved because it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and its with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Open the door and Invite him in :D

SonOfThunder

10th November 2004, 03:33 AM

Recieving him is as simple as inviting him into your heart. Do you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, and have you confessed with your mouth that he is your Lord? If you have you are saved because it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and its with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Open the door and Invite him in :D

when I was coming to this forum asking things I couldn't post in this section as I didn't or couldn't believe in trinity and still dont understand fully after extensive studies. I do believe I am Christian without that but I think even though you say it is belief alone that their are conditions.

if someone new came to the church i go to and heard that message at the end of the servie and thought "well hey I know who Jesus is because of Easter or Christmas" they could put up their hand.

Jehoavh God demands more than that I think so I wonder why this tradiditon has come about and why? Isn't Biblical knoweldge important? you cant expect eternal life from putting up your hand if you believe in Jesus and get it on that alone can you?

James

aReformedPatriot

10th November 2004, 04:06 AM

when I was coming to this forum asking things I couldn't post in this section as I didn't or couldn't believe in trinity and still dont understand fully after extensive studies. I do believe I am Christian without that but I think even though you say it is belief alone that their are conditions.

if someone new came to the church i go to and heard that message at the end of the servie and thought "well hey I know who Jesus is because of Easter or Christmas" they could put up their hand.

Jehoavh God demands more than that I think so I wonder why this tradiditon has come about and why? Isn't Biblical knoweldge important? you cant expect eternal life from putting up your hand if you believe in Jesus and get it on that alone can you?

JamesGood Stuff... *Opens Bible*

Jehova God, does demand more. Faith is a word of action not an inactive adjective. (say that 10 times fast)

I take it you are referring to works my friend, what must I do? It is important to note that Faith is the cornerstone of all things Christian. We place Faith in Jesus' death and ressurection. We believe these things because the Bible testifies about them, none of us personally lived and witnessed these events.

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Next we must look at what we must do as a Christian. Since Faith, is both belief and also a lifestyle, it will effect our every action, or at the very least should. These works that we are to do are a byproduct of our faith. We don't do them to earn what God has to give us IE salvation or a blessed life. In truth, this is sometimes a hard concept to live by.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

What's it say? It says, by Grace we are saved, through our faith (see Rom 10:9-10) not as a result of what we do for him, but because salvation is a free gift. Now that we are Born Again (John 3:3) and because of our Faith in Christ, we are a new Creation and his workmanship. For the purpose of ultimatley carrying out his mission which is:

Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

To sum it up:

Faith will encompass everything you do my friend. It will also open you up to doing the good works Christ has for you. Remember that faith produces works, not vice versa. We are also called to know God's word. This is so because it will enable you to know what the Lord's will is, but also it will keep you out of trouble. My adivce to you would be to meditate and memorize this verse, then go from there:

Psa 119:11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

Also, do you have a clear understanding of the word Grace?

rural_preacher

10th November 2004, 09:43 AM

WOW! Great post Lord's Envoy!

I always tell my congregation: Salvation is free; but it will cost you everything.

True faith in Jesus Christ will bring true repentence (turning away from sin and worldliness to face and following Jesus).

It's FREE: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" Titus 3:5.

But it Costs you Everything: "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God" Hebrews 12:1, 2.

10th November 2004, 09:54 AM

Awesome post Envoy! :)

SumTinWong

10th November 2004, 10:15 AM

Along with rural preachers post:
John 8:36 is a very powerful verse. "So if the son[/url] sets you free, you will be really free." I would suggest reading 8:31-8:38. Powerful stuff. Then after reading that read Romans 8:2

J8:36"So if the son (joh8_notes.htm#877) sets you free, you will be really free..."
R8:2"For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you[url="rom8_notes.htm#83"] (rom8_notes.htm#82) free from the law of sin and death."

Great balls o fire, that preacher is trying to set the captives, and slaves free.

Say AMEN!!!

10th November 2004, 10:17 AM

AMEN! :clap: :amen: :clap:

SonOfThunder

11th November 2004, 12:59 AM

Good Stuff... *Opens Bible*

Jehova God, does demand more. Faith is a word of action not an inactive adjective. (say that 10 times fast)

I take it you are referring to works my friend, what must I do? It is important to note that Faith is the cornerstone of all things Christian. We place Faith in Jesus' death and ressurection. We believe these things because the Bible testifies about them, none of us personally lived and witnessed these events

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Belief in Jesus is indeed important, and so very vital. Without Jesus there would be no Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe in Jesus Christ and I know without Him my faith is dead, for it is through Him I have a way to The Father.

Next we must look at what we must do as a Christian. Since Faith, is both belief and also a lifestyle, it will effect our every action, or at the very least should. These works that we are to do are a byproduct of our faith. We don't do them to earn what God has to give us IE salvation or a blessed life. In truth, this is sometimes a hard concept to live by.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

What's it say? It says, by Grace we are saved, through our faith (see Rom 10:9-10) not as a result of what we do for him, but because salvation is a free gift. Now that we are Born Again (John 3:3) and because of our Faith in Christ, we are a new Creation and his workmanship. For the purpose of ultimatley carrying out his mission which is:

Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

To sum it up:

Faith will encompass everything you do my friend. It will also open you up to doing the good works Christ has for you. Remember that faith produces works, not vice versa. We are also called to know God's word. This is so because it will enable you to know what the Lord's will is, but also it will keep you out of trouble. My adivce to you would be to meditate and memorize this verse, then go from there:

Psa 119:11 I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

Also, do you have a clear understanding of the word Grace?

Faith does produce works, there is no doubt. If you love The Father and see others without faith you desire to share it with them for two reasons. One being our very purpose here as humans and the other being a desire to tell others about The Good News. Faith produces a change of the inner person with the help of The Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear on the renewing of our minds, an attitude of servanthood, and obedience and being not of this world but a spirit creature. We are to adopt a humble approach and first of love..love.

Somehow man mixes this up into rituals and conditions which is why I posted this in the first place. To work out why the Baptist church I am going to do this ritual of hand raising at the end of a service.

In previous posts I asked why Jehovah's Witness are not considered Christian and in this forum they are relegated to the non Christian area as they do not declare that Jesus is God. The Nicene creed set out a format as to what a 'Christian' must know. How can someone new at church know that? they might know about Jesus through their community or through that one message or even through tradiditons of man i.e. Christmas or Easter, is raising their hand enough? do they attain eternal life?

Right now through confusion and growing up as a Jehovahs Witness I dont know where I stand and yet have simple belief I am Christian because I love Jehovah God and the fact He gave (his created) John 1:10,11. His Son Jesus to be our ransome sacrifice to redeem us from sin. In many a previous post it was pointed out that unless I can declare that Jesus is God, and believe it by faith, I cannot be Christian.

I decided to post in this area with this icon falsly really, as I just plain dont know. My salvation should not depend on me or a declaration that I understand trinity. My salvation stands on what our Great God did in giving us His Son Jesus Christ.

I sure hope Jehovah God knows my heart and I fear for those that might raise their hand without any knowledge as I fear for myself also.

Thankyou for replying 'The Lord's Envoy"

Grace is given, it is a gift. Do the traditions of man limit the grace of Jehovah God to their interpretations?

James

aReformedPatriot

11th November 2004, 05:09 AM

In previous posts I asked why Jehovah's Witness are not considered Christian and in this forum they are relegated to the non Christian area as they do not declare that Jesus is God. The Nicene creed set out a format as to what a 'Christian' must know. How can someone new at church know that? they might know about Jesus through their community or through that one message or even through tradiditons of man i.e. Christmas or Easter, is raising their hand enough? do they attain eternal life?
The new Christian does not know the nicene creed, and or what it may mean. The Nicene Creed basically outlines what Christians have traditionally believed since Christ died. Its a statement of beliefs nothing more.

Right now through confusion and growing up as a Jehovahs Witness I dont know where I stand and yet have simple belief I am Christian because I love Jehovah God and the fact He gave (his created) John 1:10,11. His Son Jesus to be our ransome sacrifice to redeem us from sin. In many a previous post it was pointed out that unless I can declare that Jesus is God, and believe it by faith, I cannot be Christian.
Thats right.

I decided to post in this area with this icon falsly really, as I just plain dont know. My salvation should not depend on me or a declaration that I understand trinity. My salvation stands on what our Great God did in giving us His Son Jesus Christ.
I whole heartedly agree. The trinity is a mystery of our lord. It is not specifically mentioned in scripture. However we know that there is 1 God, not 3. We have God the Father, Christ his Son, and the Holy Spirit. All 3 are 1 and the same yet not. Truley a mystery. Perhaps someone more understanding then myself would care to chime in.

I sure hope Jehovah God knows my heart and I fear for those that might raise their hand without any knowledge as I fear for myself also.
I know for a fact the Lord knows your heart. The hand raising is basically openly acknowledging that you want to accept Christ which to me sounds like you already have. Talk to the pastor of that church, he'll be more than happy to explain it.

Thankyou for replying 'The Lord's Envoy"
Your welcome, and please Call me Mark.

Grace is given, it is a gift. Do the traditions of man limit the grace of Jehovah God to their interpretations?
No, the traditions of man must be checked by the confines of scripture. Tradition cannot save you.

James
May Jehova God continue to guide you Brother James.

- Mark -

11th November 2004, 10:47 AM

I just wanted to chime in for a brief moment about the ritual of hand raising... I don't believe that it is a ritual at all. When the pastor is asking for anyone who wants to accept Jesus as their savior to raise their hand... it is so he can identify someone who is accepting Jesus for the first time or to rededicate their life to Christ. Most churches I attend follow that by asking the people who raised their hand to come up to the altar or to meet with the pastor after the service.

This happens so that the leaders of the church can meet with the person who is making their declaration of faith and help them by praying with them... answering questions and often times giving them some literature to read about what they have done in taking the first step in faith.

Do you have to go to church and raise your hand to be saved? Of course not... All you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart... Accept the gift of salvation... It is as simple as that! No ritual needed... Attending church isn't necessary for salvation. I personally enjoy attending church... and agree that it certainly helps me learn more about my faith... and the fellowship with other Christians is great... but the bottom line is, churchs don't save people... pastors don't save people... our great God saves us all by His grace.

I just wanted to be clear about why people are asked to raise their hands... or talk to the pastor after the service... Salvation happens the moment that we accept Jesus into our hearts... Raising your hand really has no bearing on that.

GreenEyedLady

11th November 2004, 11:44 AM

Right now through confusion and growing up as a Jehovahs Witness I dont know where I stand and yet have simple belief I am Christian because I love Jehovah God and the fact He gave (his created) John 1:10,11. James
This popped out at me. Jesus Christ was not created by the Father, James. Jesus Christ always was. He is the beginning and the end.
Is this what you meant when you wrote "his created"? This is something that you have been struggling with and it might just take some time to let the word penetrate you. My husbands life verse is
Proverbs 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.
After losing our sweet little daughter, he meditated upon this verse. His brain kept telling him one thing, and his heart another. As he learned to commit his works to the Lord, the Lord gave the wisdom so that he stopped analiyzing God's Word and just trusted HIM to give him understanding and obeyed. After awhile, his thoughts became establishted and the Lord answered many many questions and prayers.

Most the reason why Baptist give an "invitation" (that is what it is called) is because the church does not want to miss any oppurtunity nor hinder anyone for accepting Christ at that moment.
Many at my church have walked the isle and asked someone to show they from the bible how to be saved, then later accepted Christ as thier savouir.
When they say recieving Christ, I think that you have to lay everything down, your religion, pride, any material things, doubt, money anger etc, and recieve Him as YOURS alone. Some people have one hand on Christ holding it, and then holding on to something else (one of the above listed).
Remember in the scriptures, Christ states, give everything away and follow me. We have to let go of all and follow Him where ever He leads you. Many are trying to lead Christ where they want to go. Receiving Him is saying, I will follow your way, not my way.
Hope this helps
GEL

SumTinWong

11th November 2004, 12:39 PM

Belief in Jesus is indeed important, and so very vital. Without Jesus there would be no Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe in Jesus Christ and I know without Him my faith is dead, for it is through Him I have a way to The Father. Amen.

Faith does produce works, there is no doubt. If you love The Father and see others without faith you desire to share it with them for two reasons. One being our very purpose here as humans and the other being a desire to tell others about The Good News. Faith produces a change of the inner person with the help of The Holy Spirit. Again, amen!

The Bible is clear on the renewing of our minds, an attitude of servanthood, and obedience and being not of this world but a spirit creature. We are to adopt a humble approach and first of love..love. Amen!

Somehow man mixes this up into rituals and conditions which is why I posted this in the first place. To work out why the Baptist church I am going to do this ritual of hand raising at the end of a service. I don't know that it is so mucha ritual or just something that a pastor does to provide the opportunity to act on what a persons heart tells them to do. I know my pastor will ask for every eye closed and every head bowed and then he will ask if there is anyone who wants to recieve Jesus. At this point some will raise hands and he will lead them through prayer. Now that prayer does not save them, nor does raising the hand, but it does give people the chance to make the choice and gives them the opportunity to pray to God for the faith and grace they need.

In previous posts I asked why Jehovah's Witness are not considered Christian and in this forum they are relegated to the non Christian area as they do not declare that Jesus is God. The Nicene creed set out a format as to what a 'Christian' must know. How can someone new at church know that? they might know about Jesus through their community or through that one message or even through tradiditons of man i.e. Christmas or Easter, is raising their hand enough? do they attain eternal life? Well I think they use the Nicene creed as a bench mark. People can look back at what this creed says and will be able to say okay, yeah that is what I believe as well. Of course it takes study and time to come to that understanding, just as it took time to once believe that Jesus was really Michael the angel. No one who walks into a Kindom Hall will immediatley believe that Michael was Jesus they have to be taught that way. I am sure it is hard to un-learn what you have learned but keep fighting, and if you have questions ask away. We love you man!

Right now through confusion and growing up as a Jehovahs Witness I dont know where I stand and yet have simple belief I am Christian because I love Jehovah God and the fact He gave (his created) John 1:10,11. His Son Jesus to be our ransome sacrifice to redeem us from sin. In many a previous post it was pointed out that unless I can declare that Jesus is God, and believe it by faith, I cannot be Christian. It is hard for even the most savvy theologian to grasp that God cannot be created and yet He was able to incarnate/create Himself into human form here on earth and still retain His godship above. People have tried to explain this over the years and for the most part they have done it badly. Faith requires you to except things on the basis of hope and trust rather than on having them all explained to you. There are a great many things I do not understand, and a great many so called doctrines or dogmas that I flatly deny. Some will say that I am a heretic because of it, and others will declare me a saint. But what should interest us is what God tells us through our heart. Here is the question you need to ask yourself. Was Jesus really Michael? If so why was there never a mention of it in the Bible?

I decided to post in this area with this icon falsly really, as I just plain dont know. My salvation should not depend on me or a declaration that I understand trinity. My salvation stands on what our Great God did in giving us His Son Jesus Christ. I am so glad you felt the need to be truthful. The truth can set you free. Now here is where I want to get excited. You said what God did through His Son, Jesus Christ. The Son is in fact Jesus the Christ, and in order to be His Son, he would have had to have been part of Him in some way. They share genetic code, just as a son shares dna with a human father, so Jesus must be God.

I sure hope Jehovah God knows my heart and I fear for those that might raise their hand without any knowledge as I fear for myself also. The actual change takes place in your heart not your hand.

Grace is given, it is a gift. Do the traditions of man limit the grace of Jehovah God to their interpretations? Sometimes yes. God's grace is there for the taking, and His help is there for all who ask, and yet some will not seek or ask for help, so yes we can limit God.

I love you as a brother in the Christ Jesus, and I am here if you need to chat.

RED that's ME

11th November 2004, 03:20 PM

Several people has brought out Romans 10:9-10 and you can also use verse 13. Even Satan believes in Jesus we need to also confess him as our Savior and Lord. Confessing Jesus as Lord means humbly submitting to His authority.

Philippians 2:10-11
Believing that God has raised Him from the dead involves trusting in the historical fact of His resurrection--the pinnacle of Christian faith and the way the Father affirmed the deity and authority of the Son . Romans 1:4; Acts 17 30-31
True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is more than simply being sorry for sin. It is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin and pursue holiness ( Isaiah 55:7). Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15); and "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. Their faith is not genuine. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Jesus is the sovereign Lord. When you obey Him you are acknowledging His lordship and submitting to His authority. That doesn't mean your obedience will always be perfect, but that is your goal. There is no area of your life that you withhold from Him.

http://www.choiceshirts.com/images/A8/15/A8150E-md.jpg

SonOfThunder

12th November 2004, 06:38 AM

This popped out at me. Jesus Christ was not created by the Father, James. Jesus Christ always was. He is the beginning and the end.
Is this what you meant when you wrote "his created"? This is something that you have been struggling with and it might just take some time to let the word penetrate you. My husbands life verse is
Proverbs 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

Dear Green Eyed Lady, I think you misunderstood me, ;) I was quoting

John 1:10-1110 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not

I have often thought about this verse in terms of Jesus coming to the Jews and them not knowing Him. What I do think is that Jesus came to His own created as He knew that He came for all the world, it wasn't an afterthought.

After losing our sweet little daughter, he meditated upon this verse. His brain kept telling him one thing, and his heart another. As he learned to commit his works to the Lord, the Lord gave the wisdom so that he stopped analiyzing God's Word and just trusted HIM to give him understanding and obeyed. After awhile, his thoughts became establishted and the Lord answered many many questions and prayers.
Proverbs 16:3 fits what you said about surrender. Thank you for sharing that, I often wonder why we seem to struggle in areas of surrender and wondered why we have free will at times as believers. My head gets consumed with Scriptures and what they mean, and reading the whole Bible alone for the first time in my life opened up more questions that I can deal with, hahaha
:) :scratch:

Most the reason why Baptist give an "invitation" (that is what it is called) is because the church does not want to miss any oppurtunity nor hinder anyone for accepting Christ at that moment.
Many at my church have walked the isle and asked someone to show they from the bible how to be saved, then later accepted Christ as thier savouir.
When they say recieving Christ, I think that you have to lay everything down, your religion, pride, any material things, doubt, money anger etc, and recieve Him as YOURS alone. Some people have one hand on Christ holding it, and then holding on to something else (one of the above listed).
Remember in the scriptures, Christ states, give everything away and follow me. We have to let go of all and follow Him where ever He leads you. Many are trying to lead Christ where they want to go. Receiving Him is saying, I will follow your way, not my way.
Hope this helps
GEL
I'm watching this every week and wondering about it a lot. Even if I was to put up my hand with the confusion I have at the moment I dont think salvation will be given to me. If a total new comer to church came with no Bible knowledge or even teachings on laying down 'self totally' and all the Biblical concepts being in place, They dont know that ....they only know that Jesus died for them and then on that and that alone they accept it. They haven't gievn anything away to follow Jesus at this stage of raising their hand, they don't know Bible but they do want to say they believe in HIM. It's just different and I ask only because it is new to me

Thankyou for replying

James

GreenEyedLady

12th November 2004, 03:35 PM

[/i][/b]

I'm watching this every week and wondering about it a lot. Even if I was to put up my hand with the confusion I have at the moment I dont think salvation will be given to me. If a total new comer to church came with no Bible knowledge or even teachings on laying down 'self totally' and all the Biblical concepts being in place, They dont know that ....they only know that Jesus died for them and then on that and that alone they accept it. They haven't gievn anything away to follow Jesus at this stage of raising their hand, they don't know Bible but they do want to say they believe in HIM. It's just different and I ask only because it is new to me

Thankyou for replying

James
James,
It is really more simple than you think. Just trusting Jesus without any bible concepts will save you right then and there. Imagine back in the day, the Gentile believers who knew no scriptures, they were made whole immediatley upon accepting Him as Lord.
Remember, He did all the work for us. I think we as humans just think we are not good enough, or worthy enough to recieve Him, therefore our minds try to tell us that we must do something! But, Gods word is clear, we DON'T deserve it and the gift it free.
PRAISE GOD for HE is so good.
Each day I turn the page of the bible, I fall in love with Him even more.
GEL

ZiSunka

12th November 2004, 04:09 PM

I'm watching this every week and wondering about it a lot. Even if I was to put up my hand with the confusion I have at the moment I dont think salvation will be given to me. If a total new comer to church came with no Bible knowledge or even teachings on laying down 'self totally' and all the Biblical concepts being in place, They dont know that ....they only know that Jesus died for them and then on that and that alone they accept it. They haven't gievn anything away to follow Jesus at this stage of raising their hand, they don't know Bible but they do want to say they believe in HIM. It's just different and I ask only because it is new to me
Every week in my line of ministry I come across people who came to faith in Christ without ever even seeing a Bible. No Bible knowledge is necessary at all. All you have to know is that you are a sinner who needs to be saved, Christ lived and died to save you and wants you to be forgiven, and forgiveness is free for the asking from Jesus Christ. He has the total authority to save you and he wants to save you if only you will ask in faith.

MbiaJc

12th November 2004, 11:48 PM

Just my two cents worth:

There is some basic knowledge a person hast to have. The Holy Spirit can't draw you if you have no knowledge of God and our Lord Jesus. The Bible says if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved. So a basic knowledge of our Lord is necessary. However it is not our faith that saves us it is His faith. Grace is a free gift given freely, faith is that of Jesus Christ so there is nothing on our part that earns salvation. All that is required of us is to confess the Lord Jesus and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead. Salvation is totally by God's grace and the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ. As already stated works is a by prodict of our free gifts that we have already recieved.

SonOfThunder

13th November 2004, 01:55 AM

I don't know that it is so mucha ritual or just something that a pastor does to provide the opportunity to act on what a persons heart tells them to do. I know my pastor will ask for every eye closed and every head bowed and then he will ask if there is anyone who wants to recieve Jesus. At this point some will raise hands and he will lead them through prayer. Now that prayer does not save them, nor does raising the hand, but it does give people the chance to make the choice and gives them the opportunity to pray to God for the faith and grace they need.That seems to be what I thought, that they make a stand and ask for the faith and the grace that only Jesus can give. Right then and there is not salvation surely?

Well I think they use the Nicene creed as a bench mark. People can look back at what this creed says and will be able to say okay, yeah that is what I believe as well. Of course it takes study and time to come to that understanding, just as it took time to once believe that Jesus was really Michael the angel. No one who walks into a Kindom Hall will immediatley believe that Michael was Jesus they have to be taught that way. I am sure it is hard to un-learn what you have learned but keep fighting, and if you have questions ask away. We love you man!

It is hard for even the most savvy theologian to grasp that God cannot be created and yet He was able to incarnate/create Himself into human form here on earth and still retain His godship above. People have tried to explain this over the years and for the most part they have done it badly. Faith requires you to except things on the basis of hope and trust rather than on having them all explained to you. There are a great many things I do not understand, and a great many so called doctrines or dogmas that I flatly deny. Some will say that I am a heretic because of it, and others will declare me a saint. But what should interest us is what God tells us through our heart.Belief in the nicene creed seems to be vital to man in order to call yourself Christian. I have studied it as best I can, the study took weeks and I still cannot say either way about Jesus being God. I have been raised in a religion that denounces it so that is pretty ingrained I agree. However, when it was studied I really asked Jehovah God to help open my mind to His word. Now the study is over I think WOW, I thought I had reasonable intelligence so why can't I grasp it? am I unwilling to? do I seek truth really? Is it fear because the words of elders/family/friends/publications ringing in my ears? Are all believers declaring they are christians knowledgable in this area? or do they just accpet what they have been taught?

When a new comer came into the Kingdom Hall with no knoweldge we would show them and have Bible study until they were ready to commit to baptism. I am sure that happens in most churches as well and people blindly sit opposite another and except what is being taught as they have an open Bible in front of them. Its scary how man is able to twist and distort the word of God and certainly very very difficult to undo. Far harder for me than a new comer to this Baptist church.

Here is the question you need to ask yourself. Was Jesus really Michael? If so why was there never a mention of it in the Bible?DAN 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

This shows that Michael was one of the chief princes.

JUDE 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Here we see that Michael had no authority to rebuke satan, when Jesus face any occation that required rebuking He did not hesitate at all, nor did He pass it onto anyone else.

This topic was one of three major ones I did before leaving The Jehovah's Witness organistion.

This is a Scripture I love from Daniel,

DAN 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

On my own I can't do it but I have confidence that Jehovah God can and will deliver us.

I am so glad you felt the need to be truthful. The truth can set you free. Now here is where I want to get excited. You said what God did through His Son, Jesus Christ. The Son is in fact Jesus the Christ, and in order to be His Son, he would have had to have been part of Him in some way. They share genetic code, just as a son shares dna with a human father, so Jesus must be God.Will have to think about that, interesting comment

JOHN 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The actual change takes place in your heart not your hand.Yes, if we don't have it in the heart it is just head knowledge. So Baptists believe in actually raising hand then study and then true salvation?

I wrote this once before, but much much more, when I used the Bible search up above on the task bar I lost all the reply so I'm sorry, do you want to ask me anything in particular again?

Thankyou so much for replying

James

CFoster

13th November 2004, 08:06 AM

I am a member of a Baptist Church, and our pastor does it a little different. There is no hand raising. At the end of his sermon, he will ask the congregation if anyone wants to come up and get saved, or come up and give their heart to the Lord Jesus Christ, or come up if you want to know the Lord Jesus. This gives visitors an opportunity to come up and pray a prayer of salvation with our pastor. The church will then ask the new member, if they have not already done so, to get baptized. As our pastor tells everyone, these rituals, or whatever you want to call them, are just acts of obedience to God. These acts of obedience are just the first steps in walking with the Lord Jesus by faith. It is up to the individual to take it from there, and my prayer is that they do.

rural_preacher

13th November 2004, 09:42 AM

SumTinWong

13th November 2004, 11:14 AM

That seems to be what I thought, that they make a stand and ask for the faith and the grace that only Jesus can give. Right then and there is not salvation surely? Yes that is when salvation begins anyway. They make the choice to believe and God does the rest over the course of your lifetime.

Belief in the nicene creed seems to be vital to man in order to call yourself Christian. I have studied it as best I can, the study took weeks and I still cannot say either way about Jesus being God. I have been raised in a religion that denounces it so that is pretty ingrained I agree. However, when it was studied I really asked Jehovah God to help open my mind to His word. Now the study is over I think WOW, I thought I had reasonable intelligence so why can't I grasp it? am I unwilling to? do I seek truth really? Is it fear because the words of elders/family/friends/publications ringing in my ears? Are all believers declaring they are christians knowledgable in this area? or do they just accpet what they have been taught? I don't know of many of my Baptist church member who have ever heard the Nicene creed and yet they are Chrisitans. We hold to the beliefs of the creed, not the creed itself. Why are you not willing to accept it? That is a hard thing to understand. Obviously it could one of the many things you outlined, and it could just be that you are not taking time to be still and know that He is God. ne of my favortie versus translated into the NLT says even though all men be liars God is true, and on more than one occasion Jesus says He is one with the father. Meditate on the versus that show who Jesus was and His relationship with God, and let the Spirit of truth show you.

Read Acts 16:16-40 when you get a chance and see what Paul told the guaard about all that was needed. It was belief that mattered, the rest were outward signs of obedience and trust that what they had accepted was true. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith to say, okay, I believe it, and let the Spirit flow.

When a new comer came into the Kingdom Hall with no knoweldge we would show them and have Bible study until they were ready to commit to baptism. I am sure that happens in most churches as well and people blindly sit opposite another and except what is being taught as they have an open Bible in front of them. Its scary how man is able to twist and distort the word of God and certainly very very difficult to undo. Far harder for me than a new comer to this Baptist church. It happens here as well. We have counseling and the Deacons make sure that they know what it is they are doing. We also invite them afterwards to study the word themselves. We tell everyone to make sure that what the pastor is saying is true, do not rely on what he says, prove it to yourselves. In that way no one is following mindless name it and claim doctrines or doctrines that promise health and wealth with no backing.

You are very right, the Church has done a wonderfully sick job of carving up the scriptures like a turkey dinner. I was a Pentecostal kid and today I still have to resist the urges to believe some of the word of faith promises, so I know what you mean.

Here we see that Michael had no authority to rebuke satan, when Jesus face any occation that required rebuking He did not hesitate at all, nor did He pass it onto anyone else. Dude that is awesome! Thank you for that, I never thought of that!!!

On my own I can't do it but I have confidence that Jehovah God can and will deliver us. Amen. He can and he will!

Yes, if we don't have it in the heart it is just head knowledge. So Baptists believe in actually raising hand then study and then true salvation? Yes and no. There are some who when they here the message of the cross right away they say yes I want that, God help me I am a sinner. There are others who need more teaching to understand it fully. Some here and believe it and yet reject it. But in most cases it is message, response and study to show oursleves approved.

I believe salvation is a journey. I believe it is a process. I am saved, I will be saved and I am being saved daily.

I wrote this once before, but much much more, when I used the Bible search up above on the task bar I lost all the reply so I'm sorry, do you want to ask me anything in particular again?

Thankyou so much for replying James, I am glad you asked those questions, and all though I am not happy you are struggling with your faith, just know you are not alone. We all struggle with things, because we don't have all the answers. When you and I are sitting on a boat and fishing in heaven one day we will sit back and laugh at how we were both bumbling humans. Then that will give us yet another reason to praise God.

Lynn73

13th November 2004, 04:20 PM

Right now through confusion and growing up as a Jehovahs Witness I dont know where I stand and yet have simple belief I am Christian because I love Jehovah God and the fact He gave (his created) John 1:10,11. His Son Jesus to be our ransome sacrifice to redeem us from sin.

Jesus Christ isn't a created being. He has always existed and is God. See Colossians 2:9 Remember when Jesus said to the person who said to him "you aren't yet 50 years old and you've seen Abraham?" Jesus replied "before Abraham was, I am." There was never a time when He didn't exist. Who was God talking to in Genesis when He said "Let us make man in our image?" The Son and the Holy Spirit.

SonOfThunder

14th November 2004, 07:51 AM

Jesus Christ isn't a created being. He has always existed and is God. See Colossians 2:9 Remember when Jesus said to the person who said to him "you aren't yet 50 years old and you've seen Abraham?" Jesus replied "before Abraham was, I am." There was never a time when He didn't exist. Who was God talking to in Genesis when He said "Let us make man in our image?" The Son and the Holy Spirit.

Your the second one that took my (badly worded) post the wrong way, I replied in post 23 in this thread to Green eyed lady, May I ask you to read it also please?

James

SonOfThunder

17th November 2004, 12:23 AM

Am I a Christian? You have seen my posts, know my position so because I haven't put up my hand does that mean I am not Christian?

aReformedPatriot

17th November 2004, 01:00 AM

Am I a Christian? You have seen my posts, know my position so because I haven't put up my hand does that mean I am not Christian?
Not at all. From what I read from you, is that you've accepted Christ into your heart. Its truly beautiful, and I know that there are some things your confused about but thats ok, we all were when we were first born again.

1Pe 2:2-5 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation-- if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/customavatars/avatar77235_2.gifDrink up.

SumTinWong

17th November 2004, 10:23 AM

SonOfThunder

18th November 2004, 12:49 AM

One thing I read today might help the situation as well:
"Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. " Romans 4:9-10

So does Jesus come at the moment we raise our hand or the minute we decide to except the Christ? Was it the raising of the hand or when we made the decision?

The point of receiving/believing Jesus is the Son of God is the point that Jehovah God recognises and therefore acts on as we see in this Scripture.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

1Pe 2:2-5 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation-- if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ

I love that Scripture, we are being fashioned as we grow Spiritually, being a believer is a renewal of the mind and of your 'old self', The Scripture above does give me thought on a couple of words which I will highlight now.

'that by it you may grow up to salvation'

words like this crop up like your salvation is not certain or set? 'Enduring to the end' is another couple of words that bother me, not sure if it is from what I have been taught but wondered if I might ask your opinion on these words please.

James

Cright

18th November 2004, 01:15 AM

James,

I have had many questions over the last year that I've had to research. I know how much of a struggle it can be and I assure you you will always have questions.. and they start getting easier. It is a long journey.

To answer 1/2 of your most recent question, I see it like this...

When you believe that the Lord Jesus died for your sins and the sins of all who believe in him you are a Christian who is saved... and when someone learns that another died for them (amazing truly! I can't say that there's many people I'd die for, honestly, but selfishly speaking) then it's normal to want to learn how, why, and the details! This man that lived 2000 years ago died.. just for us! This is growing in your salvation. (not for salvation, but IN salvation!) At this point you are saved.. the assurance is in the fact that you continue to try to learn about and please the Lord. (I have a good vs on this I'll have to look up and I'll get back to you on).

I don't know what translation was being used by The Lord's Envoy, but I don't care for it (no offence ment), looking at the wording in the following translations (and others) is clearer for me.

Here's KJV:
1 Peter 2
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
and here's NIV:

1 Peter 2
2Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

The Living Stone and a Chosen People

4As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Hope that helps some... :)
God Bless,
Carina