The Doctrine of Election?

[KagomeShuko]

I don't believe in this, but when I posted in one of my journals:


I also believe that God loves everybody. I believe he sent Jesus to save us. I believe we are all born with a sinful nature, but when we decide to receive the gift of salvation given to us that Jesus sees us as righteous even though we are in a constantly sinful state. I also believe that God gives the gift of salvation to all, but we must accept it. It is available to all. It is not or our works that we are saved, for even when we doubt, God has the gift of salvation. It is just that we must accept it. When we accpet, God rejoices. We are the sheep that returns to the shepherd's flock. We are the coin that the finder finds.




http://pics.greatestjournal.com/userpic/8365129/176561 A friend replied:



Hmmm... that I disagree with. Scripture speaks clearly on the doctrine of election - that not all are chosen. Only those chosen (predestined) will be saved. It is true that all who accept His gift will be saved, but God chooses us before we choose Him. A casual reading of John or Romans makes these points clear.

Where in John or Romans would one find such things? :confused: No verses were given and I've read John and Romans. I already has a discussion with a friend here about not accepting this view and giving verses supporting that (though more are always welcome!) :D

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[WesWoodell]

According to the Word of God, everyone has the ability to choose whether to accept the free gift of salvation or to reject it.

We serve a loving God - He would not create anyone simply to destroy them. God is love. :) It is our choice.

[peach16_4u]

Romans 8:29-30

[peach16_4u]

Romans 8:29-30
for those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

This is not saying that God chooses us and nothing we can do changes that. Rather it's saying because God knew ahead of time who would come to believe him through the choices that they made that he set them on the track they would need to be one to come to make those desisions. It doesn't say that God only picks out the "good" ones or the ones he likes, he just knows who will come to put their trust in his son and those people he puts on a path to him and helps us out that's why Romans 8 goes on to say

If God is for us who can be against us?

God isn't out to get us or send some of us to hell, he wants to come to repentence through his son.

1 Thess. 5:9 says
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Obviously God wants everyone to be with him for eternity, and to top it off we have the choice, and to that I say praise God:clap:

[KagomeShuko]

Romans 8:29-30
for those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

This is not saying that God chooses us and nothing we can do changes that. Rather it's saying because God knew ahead of time who would come to believe him through the choices that they made that he set them on the track they would need to be one to come to make those desisions. It doesn't say that God only picks out the "good" ones or the ones he likes, he just knows who will come to put their trust in his son and those people he puts on a path to him and helps us out that's why Romans 8 goes on to say

If God is for us who can be against us?

God isn't out to get us or send some of us to hell, he wants to come to repentence through his son.

1 Thess. 5:9 says
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Obviously God wants everyone to be with him for eternity, and to top it off we have the choice, and to that I say praise God:clap:
I now understand how they get such ideas, but there are so many other things that say ALL have the ability to receive salvation, so the whole "foreknew" thing would be that he knew some would believe and others wouldn't, I'd imagine. . .or certain ministry callings, even. God knows us before we are even born, but it doesn't make sense that he'd have it planned out that certain people will believe and others won't.. .that comes into freewill. .in other words, I think I'm agreeing with you from what you've posted - that God wants all to be saved.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Iosias]

Where in John or Romans would one find such things? :confused: No verses were given and I've read John and Romans. I already has a discussion with a friend here about not accepting this view and giving verses supporting that (though more are always welcome!) :D

Stein Auf!


Bridget
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Ephesians 1
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Read http://www.epc.org.au/wcf/ starting with Chapter 3 :)

[Reformationist]

According to the Word of God, everyone has the ability to choose whether to accept the free gift of salvation or to reject it.
Really? What verses say such a thing? :confused:

We serve a loving God - He would not create anyone simply to destroy them. God is love. :) It is our choice.
Your salvation is the product of you choosing to be saved? Where does the Bible say such a thing? Salvation is by grace, not by choice.

there are so many other things that say ALL have the ability to receive salvation
Where does the Bible say this? :confused:

the whole "foreknew" thing would be that he knew some would believe and others wouldn't
So you contend that God sees what choice you will make of your own natural volition and then saves you/predestines you based on that? The Bible plainly states that our salvation is by the grace and mercy of God, not of works. Some will interpret this to mean that His choice isn't based on works we have already done but is based on works He knows we will do. This is clearly contrary to the Gospel. If God chose you based on His knowledge that you'd choose Him then you do, despite what the Bible says, have a reason to boast. After all, you made the right choice.

God knows us before we are even born, but it doesn't make sense that he'd have it planned out that certain people will believe and others won't.. .that comes into freewill.
What is "free will?"

God wants all to be saved.
If God wants all to be saved then what stops God from achieving His desire?

God bless

[WesWoodell]

First show me where it doesn't (I know it does). I'm too tired to get into a debate with you right now. ^_^

[Reformationist]

First show me where it doesn't (I know it does).
Um...no. You're contending the affirmative, not me. It is on you to prove your assertion that "everyone has the ability to choose whether to accept the free gift of salvation or to reject it."

I'm too tired to get into a debate with you right now. ^_^
I would prefer not to debate either. I'd just like to know where the Bible claims such a thing. A lot of Christians will make that claim but not be able to provide Scriptural evidence. I was hoping you aren't one of them.

God bless

[KagomeShuko]

Where does the Bible say this? :confused:
despite what the Bible says, have a reason to boast. After all, you made the right choice.


If you are going to say such things, and especially bring works into the discussion when that is not what was being discussed, why would I even want to get into this?

I've seen enough of your posts to know that I have no desire to debate things with you.

I see lots of "baiting" for debates of beliefs in all of your posts. Why do you do this?

[Reformationist]

If you are going to say such things, and especially bring works into the discussion when that is not what was being discussed, why would I even want to get into this?
What are you talking about? :confused: You are discussing works. You said, point blank, there are many verses in the Bible which say that we have the inherent ability to receive salvation. You also said, point blank, that you didn't believe in the doctrine of election, although the Lutheran church teaches the doctrine of election, and you said that all men have the ability to choose whether to accept or reject the free gift of salvation, and you said, point blank, God merely foreknew who would, of their own free will, believe and that that is what the "foreknew thing" spoken of in the Bible is about. You can say all you want that you're not discussing works but everything you've said up to this point makes believing and accepting God's grace a meritorious work.

I've seen enough of your posts to know that I have no desire to debate things with you.

I see lots of "baiting" for debates of beliefs in all of your posts. Why do you do this?
You know what KagomeShuko, if you don't want to debate then you shouldn't post a public thread in a public DEBATE forum. If the problem is that you can't see that you're ultimately attributing salvation to a choice we make, despite the fact that the Lutheran denomination states clearly that post-Fall man, apart from God's grace, is only capable of choosing to reject God then don't blame me and don't be so defensive.

[BBAS 64]

According to the Word of God, everyone has the ability to choose whether to accept the free gift of salvation or to reject it.

We serve a loving God - He would not create anyone simply to destroy them. God is love. :) It is our choice.
Good Day, WesWoodell

Would you please provide the verse where the Scripture Says:

"everyone has the ability to choose whether to accept"

I have searched the english and the Greek can not find that quote.

Peace to u,

Bill

[Reformationist]

According to the Word of God, everyone has the ability to choose whether to accept the free gift of salvation or to reject it.
Do we have that ability apart from the grace of God Wes?

We serve a loving God - He would not create anyone simply to destroy them. God is love. :) It is our choice.
You see, the biggest problem with this view is that you think you are in a position to determine what God must do, or must not do, to remain a good and loving God. You clearly feel that unless God gives you a will that is not only free but autonomous God is not loving. I am fully aware that the idea that God creates some for dishonor and destruction is a jagged pill that many cannot swallow, despite the fact that the Bible clearly states it.

It is also very telling that you want the choice to be yours. I am very curious why that is. Do you feel that you will make a choice to obey God? And, if you did, would you then merit salvation? You see, you keep claiming that "it's our choice." What is our choice Wes? Whether or not we're saved? Is it truly your contention that you think you can approach the majesty of God and tell Him you've decided to be saved? It's not your choice Wes. Salvation is something done to you, not with you. If this was a synergistic work then all of the aposolistic and divine warnings about boasting would be for naught. You could easily claim that the reason you're saved is because you did your part, you "chose" to be saved.

I, too, would love to see the verses that insinuate that man has the inherent ability to choose whether or not to be saved.

God bless

[andy153]

Dear Reformationist,

I am fully aware that the idea that God creates some for dishonor and destruction is a jagged pill that many cannot swallow, despite the fact that the Bible clearly states it.
God blessThis is a new and strange doctrine for me. I would be grateful if you could show or explain to me where this doctrine is stated in the bible. If you prove it I'll swallow it.

with love and respect, andy153

[Asaph]

Rom 9:14-10:1

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea:
"I will call them My people, who were not My people,And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,'You are not My people,'There they shall be called sons of the living God."
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,The remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth."
29 And as Isaiah said before:
"Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed,We would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah."
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

NKJV


Asaph

[andy153]

Rom 9:14-10:1

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea:
"I will call them My people, who were not My people,And her beloved, who was not beloved." 26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,'You are not My people,'There they shall be called sons of the living God."
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,The remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth."
29 And as Isaiah said before:
"Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed,We would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah."
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
"Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

NKJV


AsaphGod does not create to destroy. However, God does destroy that which has been created, there is a difference. As the above scriptures imply God allows the tare to be raised up with the wheat for his own purpose and his own Glory. God however did not sow the tare.


Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory
The above verses state that God prepared the vessels of mercy for glory, they do not say that God prepared the vessels of wrath for destruction. They were prepared for destruction (ripened) but not created for destruction by God.


21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
Yes indeed God does raise up some for honour and others dishonour, this does not imply that God creates someone with the sole purpose of their destruction. The potter only rejects the clay if it is marred.

With love and respect, andy153

[BBAS 64]

God does not create to destroy. However, God does destroy that which has been created, there is a difference. As the above scriptures imply God allows the tare to be raised up with the wheat for his own purpose and his own Glory. God however did not sow the tare.

The above verses state that God prepared the vessels of mercy for glory, they do not say that God prepared the vessels of wrath for destruction. They were prepared for destruction (ripened) but not created for destruction by God.

Yes indeed God does raise up some for honour and others dishonour, this does not imply that God creates someone with the sole purpose of their destruction. The potter only rejects the clay if it is marred.

With love and respect, andy153

Good Day, Andy

Is not the Clay an substance on which the potter works, is not the clay only marred at the hand of the potter consider;

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Does not the potter work clay as it seems good to the potter to make it? So that he can make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of mercy, is that not good?

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory



Peace to u,

Bill

[Asaph]

Well, actually I was just trying to answer your question about which scripture was being referenced. (You notice I posted nothing but scripture. No commentary at all).

God does not create to destroy.
Where do you see this in scripture, that God does not create to destroy?

However, God does destroy that which has been created, there is a difference. As the above scriptures imply God allows the tare to be raised up with the wheat for his own purpose and his own Glory. God however did not sow the tare.

The above verses state that God prepared the vessels of mercy for glory, they do not say that God prepared the vessels of wrath for destruction. They were prepared for destruction (ripened) but not created for destruction by God.

Yes indeed God does raise up some for honour and others dishonour, this does not imply that God creates someone with the sole purpose of their destruction. The potter only rejects the clay if it is marred.

With love and respect, andy153

I think I totally disagree. A clear reading of the scripture disagrees as well:

Rom 9:14-17
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
NKJV

It is obvious from the narrative that those who are not the recipients of said mercy are doomed to destruction. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, therefore; those who have not been shown mercy are predestined for destruction.

That's really not so hard to see is it? It's God's universe, He can do however He pleases with it can't He? Doesn't He have the right to make the rules with His own creation?

Asaph

[andy153]

Dear friends,

Well, actually I was just trying to answer your question about which scripture was being referenced. (You notice I posted nothing but scripture. No commentary at all).


Where do you see this in scripture, that God does not create to destroy?

From the beginning to the end. God's creation was good in the beginning yet he destroyed it. Was that his intention ? No, he was grieved to destroy the earth.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

I think I totally disagree. (That's fine) A clear reading of the scripture disagrees as well: (not so)

Rom 9:14-17
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
NKJV Nothing here of God creating to destroy

It is obvious from the narrative that those who are not the recipients of said mercy are doomed to destruction. Yes All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, therefore; those who have not been shown mercy are predestined for destruction. Not so, all who are born are free to accept Christ, yet God will save whom he will save.

That's really not so hard to see is it? It's God's universe, He can do however He pleases with it can't He? NO Doesn't He have the right to make the rules with His own creation? Yes and he must abide within them

AsaphGood Day, Andy

Is not the Clay an substance on which the potter works, is not the clay only marred at the hand of the potter consider;

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Does not the potter work clay as it seems good to the potter to make it? So that he can make known the riches of His Glory on the vessels of mercy, is that not good?

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory


The potter did not make the vessel to destroy it. It was when the clay would not mould to the masters hand that the clay was remoulded. It is only when the clay is useless that it is destroyed.

Tell me if you can who are these people who are doomed before they are even born with no hope of salvation ?

With love and respect, andy153

[Asaph]

andy153,

Please do not respond to my posts within my posts in that way. It makes it very difficult to then respond directly to what you have said. Can you redo your post so I have the opportunity to respond directly without having to retype your post please?

This is important. One of your responses indicated that you think God does not have the right to do as He pleases with His own universe and I would really like to respond to that farce directly.

Thank you, God bless,
Asaph

[andy153]

andy153,

Please do not respond to my posts within my posts in that way. It makes it very difficult to then respond directly to what you have said. Can you redo your post so I have the opportunity to respond directly without having to retype your post please?

This is important. One of your responses indicated that you think God does not have the right to do as He pleases with His own universe and I would really like to respond to that farce directly.

Thank you, God bless,
AsaphDear Asaph,

Hope this makes it easier for you, You said :

It's God's universe, He can do however He pleases with it can't He?

I said NO

God is bound by his own word. The world is not God's plaything to pick up and disregard as he chooses.

with love and respect, andy153

[Asaph]

Dear Asaph,

Hope this makes it easier for you, You said :



I said NO

God is bound by his own word. The world is not God's plaything to pick up and disregard as he chooses.

with love and respect, andy153
Very good. God is bound by nothing. Everything He has created is under His dominion. You, me, the air, the planet, the entire universe is under His sovriegn dominion. Surely you can agree with that right?

Great, then I'm sure that you will agree that the English language, the German language, Latin, and even Aramaic is something that is created, correct? Doesn't even the language we created humans speak fall under the dominion of the Almighty? Do you see where I'm going with this? It is only a humans pride and arrogance that would suppose that God is restricted by what that human thinks he understands because of the words that human has read or heard.

Who is the "Word"?

Asaph

[andy153]

Dear Asaph,

Very good. God is bound by nothing. Everything He has created is under His dominion. You, me, the air, the planet, the entire universe is under His sovriegn dominion. Surely you can agree with that right?err, actually no I cant. God gave dominion to Adam which was lost and then regained by Christ.


Colossians 1:16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Great, then I'm sure that you will agree that the English language, the German language, Latin, and even Aramaic is something that is created, correct? Doesn't even the language we created humans speak fall under the dominion of the Almighty?

No again I'm afraid, man has dominion over his own tongue and must learn to tame it.

Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips

Most tongues and language are under the influence and dominion of satan.

Do you see where I'm going with this? yes I do


It is only a humans pride and arrogance that would suppose that God is restricted by what that human thinks he understands because of the words that human has read or heard.
By this I asume that you mean mine ?

Who is the "Word"?John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You say :

It's God's universe, He can do however He pleases with it can't He? Doesn't He have the right to make the rules with His own creation?
I say all that God has spoken shall come to pass and that the destiny of this earth and all those who live upon it are in his hands. The Word was prepared from the foundation of the world and God is bound to deliver all that he has promised.

with love and respect, andy153

[Asaph]

Dear Asaph,

err, actually no I cant. God gave dominion to Adam which was lost and then regained by Christ.
Colossians 1:16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.I agree that man was given a certain creature dominion, but I disagree with the implication that that dominion superceds the sovreignity of God. This is one of the primary themes of the book of Job and is in Psalms and Isaiah clearly as well. (I can post the scriptures if you would like, but there is an awful lot of them.)

No again I'm afraid, man has dominion over his own tongue and must learn to tame it.

Romans 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips

Most tongues and language are under the influence and dominion of satan.You misunderstood what I was trying to say, which is partly my fault and partly the fault of this corrupted means of communication we call "language". Which is my point in a nutshell....:D

yes I do Well, actually, no you didn't but that is my fault for not taking the time to make myself clear. My apologies.

By this I asume that you mean mine ?NO! I didn't mean to imply that at all. I was speaking more to the total depravity of mankind.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


I say all that God has spoken shall come to pass and that the destiny of this earth and all those who live upon it are in his hands. The Word was prepared from the foundation of the world and God is bound to deliver all that he has promised.

with love and respect, andy153I absolutely agree with this. I just try to remember that God's ways are not our ways. His ways are higher than our ways. Which is also my point about the sovreignity of God. That He is beyond a mere creations capacity to fully understand in this lifetime.

Grace, Mercy and Peace to you today,
Asaph

[andy153]

Dear Asaph,

thank you again for your response. I do not wish you to think that I deny God's sovereignty or power, I don't.

God gave Adam dominion over 3 of the elements. Air, Earth and Water

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.The 4th element of FIre is from where God reigns and is refered to in scripture as the heaven of heavens. God never gave man dominion over the Kingdom of Fire.

The Earth is where man rules not God.

Psalm 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this earth, why, because neither he nor his father rules over it. Man has been given stewartship over the earth and all that is contained therein. Jesus said to Pilate that he had no power over the son of man except it be given from above.


John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.God cannot do as he chooses and go back on his word, once he has spoken it must come to pass. That is why we can trust him completly because he dosen't arbitrarily please himself.

My original question was where does it say in scripture that God created with the prime purpose of destroying? I do not see this in the scriptures you provide. I believe that man is the creator of his own destruction not God. He achieves this by misusing the stewatship that God has given him.

I believe it is God's desire to save man from eternity to eternity not destroy him from his creation.

I thank you for the debate and say God bless you brother, in the name of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.

with love and respect, andy153

[James1979]

By nature all men are on their way to everlasting punishment in the lake of fire unless God intervne for them and save them according to God's good pleasure. Remember in scripture it says that Jesus has been given all power over heaven and earth. So yes God can do what he pleases. He can send someone to hell even if the person wants to be saved, if God has declared that person is not his sheep, that indiviual will pay for his sins for an eternity even though he has the desire to become saved. It's hard to swallow but it is true. Just like Judas who betray Jesus, God left his heart unregenerated, and never had the intention to give Judas a new heart and a new spirit.

[andy153]

Remember in scripture it says that Jesus has been given all power over heaven and earth. So yes God can do what he pleases. He can send someone to hell even if the person wants to be savedShow me an example in scripture where someone requests salvation and is turned away ?


Just like Judas who betray Jesus, God left his heart unregenerated, and never had the intention to give Judas a new heart and a new spirit.
Judas chose Satan instead of God, he allowed Satan in. God never placed Satan in Judas heart if this is what you are trying to say ???

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
I disagree with your post 100%

I feel I have said enough on this issue and leave you to your beliefs.

with love and respect, andy153

[BBAS 64]

Dear friends,



The potter did not make the vessel to destroy it. It was when the clay would not mould to the masters hand that the clay was remoulded. It is only when the clay is useless that it is destroyed.

Tell me if you can who are these people who are doomed before they are even born with no hope of salvation ?

With love and respect, andy153



Good day, Andy

What is the cause of the clay being Mared? If clay will not mould to the hands of the potter, how can the potter remould. Clay useless, clay only becomes useless under the hands of a poor potter. God is not a poor potter, all vesels Mared or not of the Potter serve the purpose of the potter.

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

Show me an example in scripture where someone requests salvation and is turned away ?

Judas chose Satan instead of God, he allowed Satan in. God never placed Satan in Judas heart if this is what you are trying to say ???


I disagree with your post 100%

I feel I have said enough on this issue and leave you to your beliefs.

with love and respect, andy153
Good day, Andy

"Show me an example in scripture where someone requests salvation and is turned away ? "

Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Joh 6:34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Peace to u,

Bill

[andy153]

Dear BBAS 64,

Good day, Andy

What is the cause of the clay being Mared? If clay will not mould to the hands of the potter, how can the potter remould. Clay useless, clay only becomes useless under the hands of a poor potter. God is not a poor potter, all vesels Mared or not of the Potter serve the purpose of the potter.

Peace to u,

BillThe cause of the clay being marred is sin. Which can only be removed by the nail of God as it being turned on the wheel. The clay cannot be remoulded until the fleck has been removed. Clay can indeed become useless if allowed to harden not even the master potter can remould clay once it has been allowed to set.

To make a vessel fit for the kingdom of heaven it must pass through the water and then the fire. We must make the same journey that the potters vessel makes from the watery clay to the firey kiln where it is then set.

As far as reference to the bread of life is concernd I am not sure what you mean by this ???. If you are implying that these people asked for salvation and then were rejected ??? I disagree.

They rejected the only means of salvation Jesus Christ.

They "believed not" that is why they rejected Jesus, God did not reject them.

I feel I should not post on this thread anymore as I do not wish to offend anyone or go round in circles.

Just for the record then. I do not believe that God can do as he chooses, I believe he is bound by his own law and by his own word. Neither do I believe that God created anyone with the sole purpose of sending them to hell.

Peace to u as well, andy153

[BBAS 64]

Dear BBAS 64,

The cause of the clay being marred is sin. Which can only be removed by the nail of God as it being turned on the wheel. The clay cannot be remoulded until the fleck has been removed. Clay can indeed become useless if allowed to harden not even the master potter can remould clay once it has been allowed to set.

To make a vessel fit for the kingdom of heaven it must pass through the water and then the fire. We must make the same journey that the potters vessel makes from the watery clay to the firey kiln where it is then set.

As far as reference to the bread of life is concernd I am not sure what you mean by this ???. If you are implying that these people asked for salvation and then were rejected ??? I disagree.

They rejected the only means of salvation Jesus Christ.

They "believed not" that is why they rejected Jesus, God did not reject them.

I feel I should not post on this thread anymore as I do not wish to offend anyone or go round in circles.

Just for the record then. I do not believe that God can do as he chooses, I believe he is bound by his own law and by his own word. Neither do I believe that God created anyone with the sole purpose of sending them to hell.

Peace to u as well, andy153
Good Day, Andy

I am sorry :cry: that you have decided not to participate in this thread. I just want to assure you that you have not offended me Brother. Though I do not understand some of the things that you have put forward in this thread... it could just be me.

Peace to u,

Bill

[brotheralex]

John 3:16