What do you think about drums in the church?

[GasTank]

I don't exactly know what to think about the subject. So speak on.
-GasTank-:)

[New_Wineskin]

I don't exactly know what to think about the subject. So speak on.
-GasTank-:)
Naw ... people are the Church . No drums . ;)

But , while meeting together , whatever the Lord leads the group to do is fine by me . I don't mind them . A couple of the groups that I associated with on a semi-regular basis had some drums - pretty good .

[twistedsketch]

I don't exactly know what to think about the subject. So speak on.
-GasTank-:)
They need double bass pedals.

[Julesy]

loud

[wfcamb]

I think if the talent you have is playing the drums, then why not use them in a godly manner? I say yes. Whatever your talent may be (music wise), we are to use it for God's glory, and to bring others into a place of worship towards God. Sometimes drums plus other instruments played together equals a congragation in place of worship.

My answer is yes. Drums should be in the church if available. However, I do not believe it is required for every church to have them.

[InigoMontoya]

I'm honestly unsure, its one of the things that I'm cautious about but not overtly dogmatic.

[NacDan]

I don't exactly know what to think about the subject. So speak on.
-GasTank-:)I think I need more snare & kick in my monitor!

:P Danny

[Lynn73]

Why not? It's another instrument for praising the Lord. We have drums, guitars,a trombone to name a few. Tamborine, too!

[muffler dragon]

The only time that drums might not be a 'hot' item in the church is during a funeral/viewing. And even that is up to the will of the deceased. :D

[jesusfreak10537]

Drums in the church are fine as long as you are not playing hard rock things.

[GW_in_04]

Drums in the church are fine as long as you are not playing hard rock things.

and the basis for that is?

come one lots of great hard rock and even metal Christian music out there.

[wfcamb]

I think the church is a place to worship God. I don't think it should be a place for Christian entertainment. I've had someone say that they can worship to hard rock. How? I mean, that's not worship. How can you "worship" to rock? They are two totally different styles of music. I think we as the church need to define the difference between rock music and worship music and have a boundary set. We should only worship God in the church, not just fulfill our emotions.

[talitha]

Worship seems kinda draggy when we don't have drums. Even in our non-mic'ed harpnbowl style meetings, there's usually at least a jimbe. Usually we have a kit, the bongos, and auxiliary.

blessings
tal

[New_Wineskin]

Drums in the church are fine as long as you are not playing hard rock things.
That would depend on the group . I know of a group or two that worship with it .

[New_Wineskin]

I think the church is a place to worship God. I don't think it should be a place for Christian entertainment. I've had someone say that they can worship to hard rock. How? I mean, that's not worship. How can you "worship" to rock? They are two totally different styles of music. I think we as the church need to define the difference between rock music and worship music and have a boundary set. We should only worship God in the church, not just fulfill our emotions.
Your not knowing how does not mean that it isn't done . You are correct ... each group would be wise in defining their own styles .

[drumbum]

how'd i miss this thread?:scratch: as a drummer, i have to say that drums are a necessity. but, that's coming from a biased opinion. i honestly don't see what drums have to do with worshipping God. it's not going to take away from worshipping Him or, rather, it shouldn't take away from you worshipping God. drums add so much to the musical element of worship. obviously, if you are singing hymns, then you don't really have a place/need for drums. i think that if you have a problem with the drums it's because a drummer you heard is playing too loud, or the wrong style for the worship music. good drumming can't go wrong. but, then again, i attend a mexican pentecostal church, so we HAVE to have drums...:D

[drumbum]

by the way, i agree and disagree on the rock thing. i've heard really good worship songs that were done by christian rock bands. when you say rock, what do you mean? southern rock? hard rock? metal? if you don't like a style of music, you cannot say that worship music in that type of genre is wrong. you can only make the statement "i don't like how worship music sounds in that type of music" or "i don't like that style of music" but you cannot say "that is not worship music". what is worship music? if the musicians that wrote the song were definately worshipping God, who's to say that the music they play is not worshipping God (remember, God looks at the HEART)? but then again, it's a slippery slope. where do you draw the line? gangster rap? godcore? christian death metal? christain goth?:scratch:

[PaladinGirl]

I don't see anything wrong with drums in church.

[Asaph]

I think I need more snare & kick in my monitor!

:P Danny
I knew there was something agreeable about you Dan! :D

You see, Asaph was a drummer. :thumbsup:

Asaph

[muffler dragon]

I've had someone say that they can worship to an organ. How? I mean, that's not worship. Sometimes it sounds like a cat screeching. How can you "worship" to an organ? They are two totally different styles of music. I think we as the church need to define the difference between rock music and worship music and have a boundary set. We should only worship God in the church, not just fulfill our emotions. Because worship is not an emotional experience. It is strictly based on the intellect. No one should get any enjoyment out of worship, because we know G-d sure doesn't. He only delights in our displeasure.

*changed for my own enjoyment*
*please forgive the sarcasm*

My reason in doing what I did above was to prove a point. Worship is an individual thing. There are no particular guidelines, rules, regulations...

Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill. People worship in many different ways. That's one of the great things about it.

[Lynn73]

I think the church is a place to worship God. I don't think it should be a place for Christian entertainment. I've had someone say that they can worship to hard rock. How? I mean, that's not worship. How can you "worship" to rock? They are two totally different styles of music. I think we as the church need to define the difference between rock music and worship music and have a boundary set. We should only worship God in the church, not just fulfill our emotions.
We are worshippin God and we're singing praise music, not rock. Instruments are just inanimate objects, it's what you use them for that's important. There's not a thing wrong with drums and I don't get what people think the big deal about it is. :scratch:

[Iosias]

I don't exactly know what to think about the subject. So speak on.
-GasTank-:)
You would be importing the world into the House of God...keep them out!

[muffler dragon]

You would be importing the world into the House of God...keep them out!
Now, come on there AV. :D

Outside of opinion, what do you have to support that?

[Iosias]

Now, come on there AV. :D

Outside of opinion, what do you have to support that?
My opinion was asked for...there it is. There is no evidence that music is scriptural for the church meetings. Remember:

John 4
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[muffler dragon]

My opinion was asked for...there it is. There is no evidence that music is scriptural for the church meetings. Remember:

John 4
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Dearest AV:

I hope you don't think I was being inciteful with my statement. I enjoy the few discourses we have had.

I asked what I did to see if it was your opinion or a doctrinal assertion. You have answered such in the second post.

By the way, how does one worship in Spirit? And how does one worship in truth?

Don't take these as rhetorical. I would like to hear your comments.

[Iosias]

how does one worship in Spirit? And how does one worship in truth?
Through prayerful worship and quiet reflection upon Christ. Note I am not against singing in the assembly but I dislike music in the assembly.

Ephesians 5
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

What are your thoughts?

[Iosias]

You Have Heard It Said,
"Instruments Of Music In Worship Is A Matter Of Opinion"

by: Bill Cantrell

The church of the Lord is facing difficult and trying times. Liberalism on the one hand, and in some cases perhaps even an over reactionary attitude on the other. However, we must continue to pray fervently (I Thess. 5:17; Phil. 4:6; I Peter 3:12; James 5:16), and lovingly (Eph. 4:15), yet, remain very firm in our opposition to error and the efforts of the change agents which are among us. We must strive to keep a solid Biblical balance, our vision and mission clear, and our hearts and lives pure. In spite of the present efforts of some to make the church like the denominations around us and to lead the precious body of Christ astray, there are many brethren who have not bowed the knee and will not, and who stand willing to try the spirits whether they be of God (I John 4:1). We can gain confidence and take comfort in the fact that God is in control, and that there are many brethren and congregations who will continue to stand firm and that the church will weather this storm, as it has those before it, for God has promised that it will never be destroyed (Dan. 2:44).

The topic presently under consideration is the matter of "Mechanical Instruments Of Music In Worship Being A Matter Of Opinion." The word opinion is defined as:

1. A belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge, but on what seems true, valid or probable to one’s own mind; what one thinks: judgment.
2. An evaluation, impression or estimation of the quality or worth of a person or thing.
3. The formal judgment of an expert on a matter in which his advice is sought. 4. In law the formal statement by a judge, etc. of the law bearing on a case. 5. Opinionativeness, conceitedness, obstinacy in a belief (Webster’s New Twentieth Century Unabridged Dictionary, 1254).

Consider the definitions 1 and 5 in relation to the change agents. It appears that the change agents are contending that the opposition to mechanical instruments of music is a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge, but rather what has appeared to be true and that those opposed to mechanical instruments have been opinionated, conceited and obstinate in their stand against it.


It does indeed seem strange that the very issue that arose among the churches of Christ as early as 1851, (which was quickly suppressed), did not come to the surface again until about eight or nine years later around 1859 to 1860. For about 45 years this was a battle ground in the Lord’s body, resulting in a clear recognition of division in 1906. This issue has now surfaced again and has become a real point of contention. My earnest prayer is that few congregations be lost to this liberal agenda, that congregations and faithful children of God stand in firm defense of the faith, and that the men who believe and advocate that mechanical instruments of music in worship is a matter of opinion would repent or defend their positions on the use of the instrument. My beloved brethren, it is a serious and sinful thing to cause division in the precious body of Christ, and those who do so are to be marked and avoided.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple (Rom. 16:17-18).

In consideration of the subject at hand, consideration will be given to: 1. Necessary consequences if "Mechanical Instruments Of Music" is a matter of opinion, 2. Arguments used to justify Mechanical Instruments Of Music, 3. What the New Testament authorizes, and 4. What must be done in dealing with the problem. This study will focus specifically on whether the use of mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is a matter of opinion.

Necessary Consequences If Mechanical Instruments Of Music
In Worship To God Is A Matter Of Opinion
There seems to me to be obvious consequences, if one takes the position that mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is a matter of opinion. The Christian Church and denominationalism has for years contended that they (instruments) were aids or expediencies and that one could worship God acceptably with or without their use. There may have been and may continue to be a few who contend that one cannot worship God acceptably without their use, but this position is the exception and not the rule. In this present time men have arisen from among US teaching perverse things and drawing away disciples after themselves (Acts 20:30). The time has come when some people no longer endure sound doctrine, but after their own lust they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears and are turned away from the truth and turned to fables (II Tim. 4:3-4). Any person who takes a position, should consider carefully the consequences of the position taken. In consideration of the present teaching among us regarding the instrument careful consideration should be given by all who are ready to take up arms with these change agents regarding the consequences of their alliance.
If mechanical instruments of music is a matter of opinion, then it follows that the church of Christ has no basis of opposition. The body of Christ is to oppose and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them (Eph. 5:11).

To oppose that which is permitted or falls within the realm of opinion is to be guilty of promoting a doctrine of the devil.


Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth (I Tim. 4:1-3).

In consideration of the passage, note that it is discussing that which is a matter of opinion. Marriage and the eating of meat are matters of opinion. One is not commanded to marry or eat meat; one has the right to do either if he or she chooses. Further consider that to forbid that which a person has the right to do is a doctrine of the devil and constitutes a lie (to teach that something is forbidden, when in reality it is permitted constitutes a falsehood or lie in teaching). Paul further observes in relation to the eating of meats in Romans 14, that one should not forbid nor condemn that which a person had the right to exercise. If the mechanical instrument falls within the realm of opinion, the church of Christ has no basis to oppose it and to do so would make it guilty of the very thing the ultra conservatives are guilty of in opposition of the orphan home, cooperation, and benevolence; that of making laws where God has not made them. Are the opponents of the instrument willing to accept the conclusion?

A further consequence of saying that mechanical instruments are a matter of opinion is that the non-instrument church of Christ is the cause and culprit in the division over mechanical instruments of music in worship to God. This is by no means an insignificant charge. This would make the church of the Lord the one who disrupted that which sacred Scripture declares to be good and pleasant.

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! (Psalm 133:1).

It further makes the church of Christ the barrier in the Lord’s prayer.


Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me (John 17:20-21).

The church also becomes guilty of violating Paul’s inspired injunction for unity.

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (I Cor. 1:10).

It also forces the conclusion that the church has not endeavored to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:1-3).

Will the change agents accept this conclusion? It is indeed interesting that some would accept a position that would imply this conclusion, not withstanding the fact, that the church of Christ has pleaded for unity throughout the controversy. The church of Jesus Christ is not the problem! The instrument is the problem and will continue to be the problem until it is removed from the worship of God.


A further obvious conclusion of the position is that the church has made and taught for doctrine the commandments of men.

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (Matt. 15:8-9).

If mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is permitted without it constituting sin, then to teach that mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is sinful would be to teach for doctrine the commandments of men. Does our teaching the sinfulness of it also render our worship vain? Is this a conclusion they are willing to accept?


Another consideration is, if mechanical instruments of worship to God is matter of opinion, then all those who have taught and continue to teach the sinfulness of the mechanical instrument in worship to God, are guilty of sin and stand in need of repentance. Can a person or a congregation be the cause of division, teach for doctrine the commandments of men, and make laws that God never made, and it not constitute sin? If it can, in how many areas can it be done before it becomes wrong? If it is sinful and wrong, then the church of Christ is guilty and stands in need of repentance. We are to confess our sin when we are guilty of it.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:16).

When the churches were in sin, God, through the apostle John, called them to repentance (Rev. 2-3). Will they affirm publicly that mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is a matter of opinion and that all who oppose it are teaching for doctrines the commandments of men and are guilty of division, being therefore guilty of sin and in need of repentance?

A further conclusion that seems to follow is that the church of Christ has become the very thing it has condemned, sectarian (narrow or bigoted). This accusation has floated around among the change agents for some time. In consideration of this point, let it be remembered that before the church can be classified sectarian regarding the instrument, it must first be proven that mechanical instruments is a matter of opinion. This has never been done, is not presently being done, and will never be done. If claims are to be made that the church of our Lord is sectarian, let those come forward and defend the mechanical instruments who make such claims. This I do not believe they are willing to do.

If the mechanical instruments of music is a matter of opinion, the door swings open for almost every thing. If it can scripturally be contended that mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is a matter of opinion, in view of the fact the Bible does not condemn it, even though it is clearly evident that singing is the only form of music authorized, then why cannot the same line of reasoning be used in connection with infant baptism, sprinkling, counting rosary beads, etc? If because the Bible does not specifically condemn mechanical instruments makes it a matter of opinion, then why does not the same reasoning make rosary beads, sprinkling for baptism, and infant baptism a matter of opinion? My dear friends we are to do in religious matters only that which is authorized in the Scriptures.

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him (Col. 3:17).

It seems to me that the instrument, infant baptism, sprinkling, etc., stand or fall together, if not, why not?


Another evident conclusion in this: if the mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is a matter of opinion, then the church of Christ is guilty of hypocrisy. It is guilty of hypocrisy because it claims to promote unity, yet is the cause of division. It claims to abide in the doctrine of Christ, yet is in violation to the doctrine of Christ by its divisiveness, and binding what God has liberated. The Scriptures clearly condemns this practice:

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron (I Tim. 4:2).

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye (Matt. 7:5).

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 24:51).

[Iosias]

If opposition to the use of instrumental music in worship is the doctrine of men, the cause of division, binding laws that God has not bound and is hypocritical, would you please tell me what the consequences would be?


The fact of the matter is, that the church of Jesus Christ is absolutely correct in its stand against mechanical instruments in worship or any other practice which is without scriptural sanction or authority. It has, over the years, stood firm upon the authority of the Scriptures and by no means should abandon it now, unless sufficient proof be given for doing so. May the Lord continue to give us the courage, wisdom, and love of the truth to continue contending for the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3). My dear friends we need unity in the religious world and in the church of the Lord, but it must be based on truth (II John 9-11) not on the principle of compromise. Let us "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good" (I Thess. 5:21).

Arguments Used To Justify The Use Of Mechanical Instruments
Of Music In Worship To God
There have been numerous arguments advanced in an attempt to show that mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is simply a matter of opinion, and the opposition to such is an expression of legalism. These arguments have been weighed in the balance and found wanting. A consideration will be given to some of the efforts made to support the idea that mechanical instruments in worship to God is a matter of opinion.
One argument advanced in favor of mechanical instruments in worship is the idea that God commanded them in the Old Testament.


And he set the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king’s seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the Lord by his prophets (II Chron. 29:25).



If it be granted for arguments sake that such is indeed the case, it still falls far short of proving that mechanical instruments of music in worship to God is a matter of opinion in the New Testament. A few considerations to be made in this connection are:


To prove that instruments of music were commanded in the Old Testament proves nothing in connection with them being permitted in New Testament worship. Does the fact that God commanded the offering of animal sacrifice in the Old Testament make it an option in the New Testament?
The law of Moses was abolished or removed by the cross.


Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross (Col. 2:14).



Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace (Eph. 2:15).



Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God- ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ (II Cor. 3:1-14).



Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Gal. 3:24-25).



Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God (Rom. 7:4).



For one to revert to the Old Testament to gain authority for a practice in the New Testament is to handle stolen goods, by this is simply meant that one is taking that which he has no right. Further, if one is going to take the position that the instrument can be used in worship of God today because it was commanded in the Old Testament, then it appears that one would be forced into the position that all things that were commanded in the Old Testament, are things which may be used in worship of God today. Will consistency prevail and this position be taken? I would seriously doubt it!


Another effort to justify the instrument being a matter of opinion is the use of Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

The argument is advanced that God has never objected to mechanical instruments of music, thus there is no law forbidding them, and where there is no law, there is no transgression. The basic premise of this argument is, all things not specifically condemned by God are things which are permitted. Just a little thoughtfulness along this line will show the weakness of the position. To my knowledge God has never specifically condemned burnt offerings, burning of incense, having coke and cake on the Lord’s table, counting of beads in worship, etc. Are these things therefore permitted? Are they a matter of opinion? My friends, the fact of the matter is, the Bible does not have to specifically forbid something for it to be condemned. All God has to do is specify what He wants done. If all we do is to be by the authority of Christ (Col. 3:17), and instruments of music are not authorized, they are thereby forbidden. This is the same basis that prohibits infant baptism and sprinkling. They are not authorized! God has nowhere specifically forbidden sprinkling or infant baptism, but He has specified who are to be baptized (Mark 16:16) and how they are to be baptized (Rom. 6:4).

Efforts are further made to justify the right to use mechanical instruments in worship to God by equating them with song books, pitch pipes, and tuning forks. The reasoning is that the song books, pitch pipes, and tuning forks are aids to our singing and are optional (may be used, but don’t have to be) and then contends that mechanical instruments are also an aid and are optional relative to their use. In connection with this argument, it needs to be noted that the word aid has to do with giving assistance to or being necessary or useful in achieving an end. Mechanical instruments of music can indeed be said to be an aid, but to what? They are an aid in making music, but they are not an aid to singing, but rather an addition. A further consideration along this line is that a mechanical instrument is an instrument that you can play a tune upon, combining length, pitch, and power, which serve as the elements of music. The pitch pipes and tuning forks have only one function and that is to get the pitch which aids the singing. The song books simply give the lyrics and notes of a song and thus serve as an aid, but the mechanical instrument is music in addition to singing.

Perhaps the strongest effort of those who seek to uphold the instrument revolves around the word "psallo." The claim is that the use of this word inherently involves the use of mechanical instruments. It is interesting in consideration of this point that if the word "psallo" inherently involves playing mechanical instruments, then they cease to be an opinion and become mandatory. If they are mandatory then one is in violation of Scripture if they are not used, and to violate God’s law is to constitute sin (I John 3:4). It is also worthy of note, that if mechanical instruments of music are inherent in "psallo," that the apostles and first century church also sinned in view of the fact that history shows that they did not use instruments in their services. Let it further be considered that while the word does mean to pluck or twang, the particular instrument is not inherent in the word. It may refer to plucking the beard, the bow string, the carpenters line, the harp, etc., but it is perfectly clear that the instrument to be plucked or twanged is the heart.


Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord (Eph. 5:19).

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord (Col. 3:16).


Henry Thayer, in his lexicon, acknowledges the various uses of the word, but then makes the following comment "in the N.T. to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song . . ." (p. 675).


Remember that proving that the word can mean to pluck the strings of an instrument does not prove such is the case in Ephesians and Colossians or any other New Testament passage. The context must be the determining factor. In the Ephesian and Colossian letters, the heart is shown to be the instrument under consideration.

Another effort is made by suggesting that the basis of fellowship should be based on Ephesians 4, verses 4 through 7. These seven ones of Ephesians 4 are considered the essentials, and other things (such as instrumental music, mixed swimming, modesty, etc.) are considered as incidental. This type of reasoning opens the door for fellowship with religious bodies who hold to the seven ones of Ephesians 4, regardless of their position on other crucial issues.

The Scriptures do not support such conclusions.


Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds (II John 1:9-11).

This passage makes it perfectly clear that a failure to abide in the doctrine of Christ severs one’s fellowship with God. Efforts have been made to make the phrase "the doctrine of Christ," refer to the doctrine about Christ. Such is simply not the case, rather it refers to the teaching of Christ.


Note the following:


Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees (Matt. 16:12).

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So, hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate (Rev. 2:14-15).
Are these passages talking about the teaching done by the Pharisees, Balaam and the Nicolaitanes, or are they describing the doctrine taught about the Pharisees, Balaam and the Nicolaitanes? It is obvious that what is under consideration is the teaching done by them, not the teaching done about them. This particular twist on II John 9 is nothing more than another effort by some among us (an effort that is certainly not new) to make the basis of fellowship the person of Christ not the teaching of Christ. The person of Christ is certainly important and essential. If the basis of fellowship is rooted simply in what one believes regarding the person of Christ, why should one be concerned about false teachers (Matt. 7:15; II Peter 2:1; Acts 20:30), unless the falsehood being taught is about the person of Christ?

[Iosias]

Further efforts have been made to make mechanical instruments of music a matter of opinion by suggesting that singing in worship to God is no more authorized than mechanical instruments. The conclusion is thus drawn that since neither is authorized, then both can be used in worship or neither can be used in worship. It is amazing to me that there would be a denial that singing is authorized in the worship of the church, in light of such passages as the following:



Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord (Eph. 5:19).





Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord (Col. 3:16).





Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee (Heb. 2:12).





The Scriptures clearly show that singing is authorized in the New Testament! A couple of observations need to be made in relation to the claim made in this regard: 1. In the claim, a clear declaration is made that mechanical instruments are not authorized in worship to God. To this point we agree completely! 2. If it is proven that singing is not authorized (which cannot successfully be done) in worship to God, it does not allow the instrument, it excludes both singing and the instruments. The fact of the matter is, it is correct to say that mechanical instruments of music in worship to God are not authorized, but it is incorrect and unscriptural to claim that singing in worship is not authorized. A further consideration in this regard is, if we can do in worship what is not authorized, does this mean we do not have to have authority for what we do in religious matters? If not, why not? This conclusion is clearly in conflict with Bible teaching that requires authority for what we do in religious matters (Col. 1:17).



Mechanical instruments in worship to God are unauthorized, unscriptural and unacceptable, and all the efforts to justify and to make it a matter of opinion have been, continue to be, and will continually be in vain.

Singing Is That Which Is Authorized In Worship To God




Singing is clearly authorized in worship to God! It is the only type of music in worship to God that is authorized. Passages that refer to singing are:And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives (Matt. 26:30).





And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them (Acts 16:25).





And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name (Rom. 15:9).





What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also (I Cor. 14:15).





Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord (Eph. 5:19).





Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord (Col. 3:16).





Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms (James 5:13).





Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee (Heb. 2:12).





By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name (Heb. 13:15).





These passages clearly show the authorization to sing. It should also be pointed out that, not only are we authorized to sing, we are commanded to sing. At this point, consideration will be given to singing being commanded, focusing specifically upon Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3. In the Ephesian letter in verses 18 through 21, it is important to note the verbs and participles. The text reads as follows:





And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God (Eph. 5:18-21).





Consider, if you would, that in this passage we have two present, passive, second person, plural, imperative verbs. They are "be not drunken" which is prohibitive and "be filled." These two verbs are followed by five nominative, plural, masculine, present, active participles. These participles are to be taken as imperative. The imperative mood is used to express a command or a request, such being the case, the leading verbs and the five following participles are issuing a command. A further consideration worthy of note is that the verbs and participles are in the second person plural, indicating more than one participating. This is further pointed out in the American Standard version which reads,





speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; subjecting yourselves one to another in the fear of Christ (Eph. 5:19-21).





The American Standard translation shows that it is something to be done in the collective by the reflective pronoun "speaking one to another." The speaking one to another shows the action to be reciprocal. There can be no reasonable doubt that singing is commanded, but not only commanded, but also commanded in the assembly.



In addition to the Ephesian passage, the Colossian passage also has three nominative, plural, masculine, present, active participles (that is to be taken as imperative) indicating something commanded. Consider further, the teaching and admonishing is to be done to one another, indicating the collective. All the efforts in the world are not going to remove the injunction placed upon the singing when we are gathered together. The only thing authorized in worship to God is singing to the exclusion of mechanical instruments.

What Should We Do In View Of The Efforts Made To Make
Mechanical Instruments Of Music In Worship To God A Matter Of Opinion?

An appropriate question in light of the efforts made, in and out of the church, to make the instrument question a matter of opinion, is what should we continue to do? A consideration will be given to this question as we bring our study to a close.

The first thing we can do is to continue respecting the authority of the Scriptures. Remembering the admonition:



And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him (Col. 3:17).





If we are going to ignore this passage in one area, why not in every area? Once the authority principle is given up, the door swings open for everything. We need to study carefully and remember frequently, lessons from the past regarding a disrespect for the authority of the word of God.



A second thing we can do is continue to pray and seek unity. The sacred writings tell us that it is good and pleasant for brethren to dwell together in unity (Psalm 133:1). Consider a few additional passages about unity:

I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:1-3).

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment (I Cor. 1:10).

Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you (II Cor. 13:11).

Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel (Phil. 1:27).

Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous (I Peter 3:8).

Unity is indeed good and pleasant and we should and must endeavor to have it, but it must not be a unity based on compromise but upon truth.


Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds (II John 9-11).

[Iosias]

We should also continue to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (Jude 3).

But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel (Phil. 1:17).

No one enjoys controversy, but sometimes it becomes necessary. Our Lord was the greatest controversialist of all times, we are His followers, and should expect no less. The truth should not be for sale. When the truth is under attack, we must not sit idly by while it is peddled away and the faith for which the Lord died sold out from under us. My beloved brethren the truth is not on the auction block, but remains firmly rooted in the Rock of Ages. He originated it. Christ lived it, the Holy Spirit revealed it, and we must be faithful to it and preach it in its purity and simplicity.


Another thing we must do is have no fellowship with those who do not abide in its teaching.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds (II John 9-11).

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them (Rom. 16:17).

We should love and desire all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (I Tim. 2:4) inasmuch as this reflects the mind of Christ. However, our desire for the salvation of men should cause us to stand firm for the truth, rather than seek avenues to compromise it, and while we love men we must not extend fellowship to those who have driven the wedge of division through the precious body of Christ. The not having fellowship with those who are not abiding in the doctrine is not to make permanent enemies out of them. This no one should desire, but it is to bring them to the truth or back to the truth, whichever the case may be, to keep the church pure as our heavenly Father would have it (Eph. 5:26), and to alert the church as to the dangers that are before them and who may come to them in sheep’s clothing, while inside being ravening wolves (Matt. 7:15).


The final consideration is: churches must have strong, informed, and courageous leaders. Elders are to feed, oversee, be examples, and protective of the flock they have been entrusted with. It appears that one of the serious problems facing the church today are elders who are ill informed in the Scriptures and the problems before us, who do not have the courage nor concern for the flock to stand in opposition to the threats and dangers that come their way. They must take seriously the requirements placed upon them.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:28-30).

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you (Heb. 13:17).

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away (I Peter 5:1-4).

Elders have a serious responsibility and one to be taken very seriously. The church and its safety and purity should be of primary concern, and when the truth is under attack they have the responsibility to stop the mouths of gainsayers.

Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake (Titus 1:9-11).

A pleasant responsibility it is not, but it is certainly a necessary one. May the Lord of glory give us all the courage to carry it out in love and kindness, yet with a sense of urgency.


Conclusion
The issue of mechanical instruments of music has been a long standing point of controversy. It will remain the same until those who have incorporated them in their worship decide to abandon that which is not authorized by the Scriptures and return to truth once delivered to the saints. Let me plead not to compromise the truth, but to remain faithful to the word as it was revealed, "in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." Let us all desire unity and strive for it, but not, at the expense of the truth, rather based upon the body of truth that must not be altered (Rev. 22:18-19). May the Lord help us to spend much time in prayer and study as we prepare ourselves for the task that is before us.

[muffler dragon]

Through prayerful worship and quiet reflection upon Christ. Note I am not against singing in the assembly but I dislike music in the assembly.

Ephesians 5
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

What are your thoughts?
Well, it's difficult to describe the ethereal. Just like it's hard to put concrete ideas to the metaphysical. Worship is a verb. Therefore, it can't be seen, heard, tasted, smelled and such in order to evaluate it. As is the same with Spirit and truth.

Truth is something we can grasp, because we have a discernable definition.

2 Samuel 7
28 "Now, O Lord GOD, You are God, and (1) Your words are truth, and You have promised this good thing to Your servant.

Psalm 119
160
The (1) sum of Your word is (2) truth,
And every one of Your righteous ordinances (3) is everlasting.

Therefore, I don't know if there is a definitive answer on how one is to worship in Spirit and truth. It seems that any thing is permissible that does not stand in direction oppostion to the Word. Now, my reference of Word would be in the strict sense of the Psalmist (as the Torah).

Considering context, there were obviously no amplifiers, electric guitars, organs, and numerous other musical instruments in the time of the Torah or let alone 200 years ago.

However, there is no direct condemnation of the use of musical instruments in the entire Bible. Nor is there a particular set of guidelines for showing how said instruments are to be used.

Now, I do know that the word 'worship' denotes reverence; but I also think that reverence is up to individual interpretation. As said above with music, as long as the worship does not profane the Word of G-d; then I don't see there being too many restrictions OTHER than personal preference.

Therefore, we are stuck with a thread of opinions. And that may be the most dangerous of all. :D Unless everyone can view it as such, and attempt to keep it light. Just like food - not everyone likes steamed broccoli; but that doesn't get panties in a bunch.

I guess those are my thoughts.

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

Dear AV:

In regards to your article.

I understand this person's point of view, but I have to admit that I find his argument for his belief to be wanting.

The reason being: he does not use one verse from the Tanakh to support his case.

As I said in my previous post, I reference the Psalmist when he says that G-d's Word is truth, and he is speaking of the Torah. There is no overt description in the Torah that would negate the use of any type of instrument in worship.

So, that's my thought on the article.

m.d.

[Suffolk Sean]

MD,

Stop feeding him, you already know how he will respond on just about everything.

[Asaph]

I find it interesting that the same people who stand so violently opposed to musical instruments being used to worship God on the grounds that it is not specifically authorized in the NT, are the same people who find no problems with using the internet to espouse or proclaim those views. The internet is not mentioned in the bible either, but I dare say they are claiming that they are worshipping God in their staunch defense of their "truth".
Those same people see no problems in driving their cars to get to church rather than walking. They probably wear shoes instead of sandals. I would be willing to bet that all read out of bibles printed on mechanical presses instead of being hand copied. The list goes on and on, but that is their right. If they don't want to use these things to worship God, well good for them. Just don't condemn those of us who do.
I sometimes think that God has actually ordained that there be so many different denominations or congregations just so those of His children who have a certain style or mindset can find a place where they are most comfortable in their worshipping and praising Him.
In essentials Unity, in non-essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Asaph

[Suffolk Sean]

I find it interesting that the same people who stand so violently opposed to musical instruments being used to worship God on the grounds that it is not specifically authorized in the NT, are the same people who find no problems with using the internet to espouse or proclaim those views. The internet is not mentioned in the bible either, but I dare say they are claiming that they are worshipping God in their staunch defense of their "truth".
Those same people see no problems in driving their cars to get to church rather than walking. They probably wear shoes instead of sandals. I would be willing to bet that all read out of bibles printed on mechanical presses instead of being hand copied. The list goes on and on, but that is their right. If they don't want to use these things to worship God, well good for them. Just don't condemn those of us who do.
I sometimes think that God has actually ordained that there be so many different denominations or congregations just so those of His children who have a certain style or mindset can find a place where they are most comfortable in their worshipping and praising Him.
In essentials Unity, in non-essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Asaph
I think urinals in church restrooms should be all taken out. Horrid worldly things.

[muffler dragon]

MD,

Stop feeding him, you already know how he will respond on just about everything.
Sean,

AV knows that I am not in the business of baiting. Therefore, I was thinking it was just a cordial discourse.

However, I can discontinue my part if it's only going to bring problems.

m.d.

[Andyman_1970]

AV (and anyone else who is "anti-drum),

Do you believe that drums are somehow not spiritual, and if so why?

On a side note related to "worldly/paganness":

Do you that Paul quotes and affirms the truth of pagan prophets and poets in the Scriptures? If he quotes them and affirms the truth of their statements, how did he know this?

Considering the early church did things like figure out how to "assmilate" Gentiles into essentially a sect of Judaism (Acts 15) and they essentially "change" God's Name from YHWH to Theos (captial "T") - adding drums to a worship service is not even a "blip" on the radar.........IMO

But again, AV I would be curious as to your answer to me orginal question.

[Andry]

I think urinals in church restrooms should be all taken out. Horrid worldly things.

But don't you think Christians of all people should at least flush them when they're done? The worldy people in my office does a better job of flushing.

[Iosias]

AV (and anyone else who is "anti-drum),

Do you believe that drums are somehow not spiritual, and if so why?
I am sorry to answer with a question but how are they spiritual?

[twistedsketch]

How is a pew spiritual? Or a pulpit? Or even a church building?

[AJ]

I have no problem with using drums as another tool of worship in a church. I love contemporary praise and worship music!

[Iosias]

How is a pew spiritual? Or a pulpit? Or even a church building?
Good questions! The point is however we do not use the pew pulpit &c. as a form of worship though :). The pro-drummers (LOL) are arguing that drums are a part of the act of worshiping...I the anti-drummer (LOL) take issue with that. :)

[twistedsketch]

They are used in church, which is a house of worship. Some people sit down while singing and the preacher uses the pulpit while preaching. That could be very serious.

[muffler dragon]

Good questions! The point is however we do not use the pew pulpit &c. as a form of worship though :). The pro-drummers (LOL) are arguing that drums are a part of the act of worshiping...I the anti-drummer (LOL) take issue with that. :)
Actually, only in certain cases would drums be used in an act of worshipping.

However, they can be utilized to help augment an atmosphere that is conducive to worshipping; just as a pew augments by allowing people to sit, a building augments by allowing people to not worry about the elements of weather.

Playing the drums as a form of worship is a stretch.

m.d.

[twistedsketch]

Playing the drums as a form of worship is a stretch.

No more than the harp or lyre or anything that has breath (Psalm 150).

[Andyman_1970]

I am sorry to answer with a question but how are they spiritual?

According to passages in Deuteronomy, shoes have spiritual significance. Do you realize there is no word in the Hebrew Sciptures for the word "spiritual". Because to label one thing as spiritual meant that something else would not be spiritual. The Hebrew writers of the Scriptures understood that EVERYTHING had spiritual significance........just look at all the references to stumps and rocks and mountains and bushes...........all of these seemingly everyday mudane things had spiritual significance to them.

Of course in our modern Greek thinking minds we don't think that way, in symbols, images and metaphors - we think in concrete facts. It seems that even after thousands of years the dualistic philosophy of making material things "bad" and "spiritual" things good still persisits - I think that was called Gnostisism.

My question to you question is "how are they not"?

Anyway, from the Hebrew/Eastern way of thinking (which is what the Scriptures were written from) drums are spiritual.

[Andyman_1970]

Was it not God who created everything and everyone that gave those drummers that ability?????

[muffler dragon]

According to passages in Deuteronomy, shoes have spiritual significance. Do you realize there is no word in the Hebrew Sciptures for the word "spiritual". Because to label one thing as spiritual meant that something else would not be spiritual. The Hebrew writers of the Scriptures understood that EVERYTHING had spiritual significance........just look at all the references to stumps and rocks and mountains and bushes...........all of these seemingly everyday mudane things had spiritual significance to them.

Of course in our modern Greek thinking minds we don't think that way, in symbols, images and metaphors - we think in concrete facts. It seems that even after thousands of years the dualistic philosophy of making material things "bad" and "spiritual" things good still persisits - I think that was called Gnostisism.

My question to you question is "how are they not"?

Anyway, from the Hebrew/Eastern way of thinking (which is what the Scriptures were written from) drums are spiritual.
What an absolutely awesome post!!!!

Holy Cow!!!

:thumbsup: :amen: :clap:

[Iosias]

My question to you question is "how are they not"?
I think your answer answered this question but I will make it clearer. Drums cannot be spiritual because they are material things. Prayer is spiritual however drums are material and to worship God we need to worship in Spirit.

[Asaph]

The last time I checked, vocal chords were material things also. Occasionally dreadfully out of tune, but material none-the-less. ;) :D

Asaph

[Andyman_1970]

I think your answer answered this question but I will make it clearer. Drums cannot be spiritual because they are material things. Prayer is spiritual however drums are material and to worship God we need to worship in Spirit.

With all due respect AV, this is a dualistic understanding of the world around you, and does not line up with the Scriptures.

I'm not calling you a Gnostic or anything, but this philosophy had a great influence on the early church, and it still does today.

[muffler dragon]

The last time I checked, vocal chords were material things also. Occasionally dreadfully out of tune, but material none-the-less. ;) :D

Asaph
Ahem!

*that would be me over here*

That's also why I married a singer (granted I play drums and wanted to play in a band with her, but...)

:D

[Andyman_1970]

Ahem!

*that would be me over here*

That's also why I married a singer (granted I play drums and wanted to play in a band with her, but...)

:D

How funny is that, that sounds like me and my wife...........she can sing up a storm.........me on the other hand.............LOL...........that's why I teach.

[NacDan]

I find it interesting that the same people who stand so violently opposed to musical instruments being used to worship God on the grounds that it is not specifically authorized in the NT, are the same people who find no problems with using the internet to espouse or proclaim those views. The internet is not mentioned in the bible either, but I dare say they are claiming that they are worshipping God in their staunch defense of their "truth".
Those same people see no problems in driving their cars to get to church rather than walking. They probably wear shoes instead of sandals. I would be willing to bet that all read out of bibles printed on mechanical presses instead of being hand copied. The list goes on and on, but that is their right. If they don't want to use these things to worship God, well good for them. Just don't condemn those of us who do.
I sometimes think that God has actually ordained that there be so many different denominations or congregations just so those of His children who have a certain style or mindset can find a place where they are most comfortable in their worshipping and praising Him.
In essentials Unity, in non-essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Asaph
And the congregation said in unison:

:amen: :amen: :amen:

[NacDan]

Actually, only in certain cases would drums be used in an act of worshipping.

However, they can be utilized to help augment an atmosphere that is conducive to worshipping; just as a pew augments by allowing people to sit, a building augments by allowing people to not worry about the elements of weather.

Playing the drums as a form of worship is a stretch.

m.d.
Me, rather than drumming as worship, I prefer bowling.

Danny

[muffler dragon]

Me, rather than drumming as worship, I prefer bowling.

Danny
You, sir, are indeed a trip. :D

[Asaph]

You, sir, are indeed a trip. :D
Nah MD, I suspect he's just a hack!...^_^

Just kidding bro Dan.

Asaph

[New_Wineskin]

I find it interesting that the same people who stand so violently opposed to musical instruments being used to worship God on the grounds that it is not specifically authorized in the NT, are the same people who find no problems with using the internet to espouse or proclaim those views. The internet is not mentioned in the bible either, but I dare say they are claiming that they are worshipping God in their staunch defense of their "truth".
Those same people see no problems in driving their cars to get to church rather than walking. They probably wear shoes instead of sandals. I would be willing to bet that all read out of bibles printed on mechanical presses instead of being hand copied. The list goes on and on, but that is their right. If they don't want to use these things to worship God, well good for them. Just don't condemn those of us who do.
I sometimes think that God has actually ordained that there be so many different denominations or congregations just so those of His children who have a certain style or mindset can find a place where they are most comfortable in their worshipping and praising Him.
In essentials Unity, in non-essentials Liberty, in all things Charity.

Asaph
"... Do not handle , do not taste , do not touch ..."

[NacDan]

Nah MD, I suspect he's just a hack!...^_^

Just kidding bro Dan.

Asaph
I was pretty serious...you have no idea how much praying I do everytime I walk up to the approach to bowl....

btw...my team is currently in 3rd place (in our scratch league) and we play the #2 team tonight....

:D
Danny

[Asaph]

I was pretty serious...you have no idea how much praying I do everytime I walk up to the approach to bowl....

btw...my team is currently in 3rd place (in our scratch league) and we play the #2 team tonight....

:D
Danny
In that case my friend, may all the pins fall over in anticipation of your ball arriving. And if they do not, may all who are watching see the incredible Love that our Lord has for you as you rest in Him.

Asaph

[Asaph]

"... Do not handle , do not taste , do not touch ..."
all things which perish with the using

[GasTank]

I would like to say that drums arn't exactly wrong, it depends on its used. The banjo was used by witch-doctors in africa before america used it in bluegrass type music. I don't think that the banjo is a bad instrument, in fact I wish I could play it! So It depends on how the drums are used. And I believe Music in the assembly is a very good thing, it says to sing to the Lord in many places in the Bible. Is that not true?
-GasTank-

[Asaph]

I would like to say that drums arn't exactly wrong, it depends on its used. The banjo was used by witch-doctors in africa before america used it in bluegrass type music. I don't think that the banjo is a bad instrument, in fact I wish I could play it! So It depends on how the drums are used. And I believe Music in the assembly is a very good thing, it says to sing to the Lord in many places in the Bible. Is that not true?
-GasTank-
All kidding aside. There have been times that I know without a doubt that what I was playing shook the very doorposts of the throneroom with the resounding Amen of heaven. That doesn't mean I'm anything, or the drums I played was anything, but just that I was in the will of God at that moment. There is no greater thing than pleasing God.

Asaph

[NacDan]

In keeping with the kidding aside...

Often times, I feel as if all of us on the worship team has lost complete control of what we're playing and are letting the Holy Spirit perform through us. Is it not written that we are the arms, hands, fingers of God?

Danny

[Asaph]

In keeping with the kidding aside...

Often times, I feel as if all of us on the worship team has lost complete control of what we're playing and are letting the Holy Spirit perform through us. Is it not written that we are the arms, hands, fingers of God?

Danny
Brother we are nothing but servants. We are ushers in the throne room of God. If we have a servants heart we are doing nothing but meeting our brothers and sisters at the door, and through the service we render in our playing we lovingly knock the dust off them, we straighten their ties, we love them into turning their hearts towards the throne and then we gently lead them down to the very foot of the throne of the Lord. We are Levites. that's what we do.

Asaph

[Telrunya]

Our church has a contemporary service where they play alot of the new christian songs by Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W Smith and others. Having the drums is great!:clap:

[amiel]

I think they are fine providing they are not distracting from worshiping God. We use them in our church services.

[DoseOFReality]

I don't exactly know what to think about the subject. So speak on.
-GasTank-:)
ok how in any way does playing drum in church is offensive or disrespectful to the truth? Thats as ridiculous as saying "You have sinned because you didnt wash your hand before eating"

[Rich48]

I think they are fine providing they are not distracting from worshiping God. We use them in our church services.
This is the exactly the right point! If they assist in the worhip, then they are fine. But if they become distracting because the drummer is "performing", then they are wrong.

Rich

[talitha]

This is the exactly the right point! If they assist in the worhip, then they are fine. But if they become distracting because the drummer is "performing", then they are wrong.

Rich
true..... which can be said about the preaching, the singing, the organist, the ushers, the guy in the congregation who comes up to the front after church to argue with the pastor, annnnnnyyyythinggg......... so........ of course, drums are not really the issue, are they?

blessings
tal

[talitha]

This is the exactly the right point! If they assist in the worhip, then they are fine. But if they become distracting because the drummer is "performing", then they are wrong.

Rich
true..... which can be said about the preaching, the singing, the organist, the ushers, the guy in the congregation who comes up to the front after church to argue with the pastor, annnnnnyyyythinggg......... so........ of course, drums are not really the issue, are they?

Whether, then, you [drum or dance or preach or sing] whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

blessings
tal

[muffler dragon]

the guy in the congregation who comes up to the front after church to argue with the pastor,
blessings
tal

Not to knit pick, but unless the guy has ulterior motives, what's wrong with arguing with the pastor?

[Iosias]

Not to knit pick, but unless the guy has ulterior motives, what's wrong with arguing with the pastor?
:amen: I often challenge our speakers on what they say if they were unclear or if they were talking rubbish.

[Rich48]

true..... which can be said about the preaching, the singing, the organist, the ushers, the guy in the congregation who comes up to the front after church to argue with the pastor, annnnnnyyyythinggg......... so........ of course, drums are not really the issue, are they?

Whether, then, you [drum or dance or preach or sing] whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

blessings
talRight. But I did not address these as the subject of the thread was if drums were ok in a worship service. But ANYTHING that distracts from the worship service may be deemed wrong.

Rich

[muffler dragon]

:amen: I often challenge our speakers on what they say if they were unclear or if they were talking rubbish.
Cool beans.

I find that I challenge any one nowadays; regardless of 'stature' or 'position'.

[Rich48]

Cool beans.

I find that I challenge any one nowadays; regardless of 'stature' or 'position'.
Perhaps a new thread might be started on this subject, but in brief, should it be done as the original poster asked in front of the congregation during the service? :confused:

Rich

[muffler dragon]

Perhaps a new thread might be started on this subject, but in brief, should it be done as the original poster asked in front of the congregation during the service? :confused:

Rich
Actually this wasn't asked in the OP, and the person who did bring it up said "after". Note:

the guy in the congregation who comes up to the front after church to argue with the pastor

[talitha]

to the OP, sorry -- I honestly didn't mean to waylay the discussion here; what I said was merely to illustrate that anything might be a distraction if it is done with selfish motives, not just drumming.

If someone wants to start a different thread, so be it. I'm not really motivated to.

bless you
tal

[muffler dragon]

to the OP, sorry -- I honestly didn't mean to waylay the discussion here; what I said was merely to illustrate that anything might be a distraction if it is done with selfish motives, not just drumming.

If someone wants to start a different thread, so be it. I'm not really motivated to.

bless you
tal
Talitha,

I wasn't coming down on you. I would not have even made it an issue or stated any thing about it had you included the "selfish motives" part. I understand that you were probably thinking that and just didn't write it.

I was just trying to see if you were the type that felt that blind allegiance to those with a title was the appropriate way to go.

My apologies,

m.d.

[SnowDove]

I have no problem with it. My church has an awesome praise band...and yes, they're great musicians and really play great stuff...but it's not just awesome because of the drums or electric guitar. It's awesome because of their hearts and the way they lead it. It's all about God...not about them or the sound guy...not about the singers on the stage or on the floor...it's all about God.

Everyone has different preferences, and that's why there are different types of churches. If you like the old hymns, for example, you will most likely enjoy the worship at a church that sings hymns. If you enjoy praise worship...etc. I hate to think that people would think me less holy or out-of-line just because there are drums in my church. I praise our God the same way you do...with my heart. Whether it's with Ludwig or Hammond has no reflection on that, and if you think it does...you're not looking deep enough.

[RP1000]

I just dont see an issue with it?
The Bible says basically nothing in bad in itself (using food as the example)
Feel free to use whatever you want to praise God!

[RP1000]

I just dont see an issue with it?

The Bible says basically nothing is bad in itself (using food as the example)

So, I say Feel free to use whatever you want to praise God!:preach:

[muffler dragon]

I just dont see an issue with it?

The Bible says basically nothing is bad in itself (using food as the example)

So, I say Feel free to use whatever you want to praise God!:preach:
comparing drums and food is a bit of a stretch, but I feel what you're saying.

[mystery4]

personally I don't have a problem with drums being played in church so long as they are used correctly and don't create a stumbling block for a fellow believer.

I believe God judges from the heart so therefore we shouldn't judge one another according to the way and things used in worship. Everyone is different, yet it is our belief in Christ and the fact we follow him wholeheartedly that makes us the same. This is the unique thing about Christians, that through love all peoples of the earth can join together in perfect unity in fellowship of our Lord.

[Andry]

If you know our church fellowship - a Vineyard, in many things we are ultra-creative and ultra-contemporary. But you see that’s not where God is. God is not in the contemporary or the traditional. Paul is an interesting guy, and he comes up with this whole thing in Galatians and he argues with them about whether one should be circumcised or not circumcised, and after he argued it all and put a great case he says, ‘but none of that matters anyways.’ He says the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. So he said look, I’ll argue it with you but at the end of the day it doesn’t mean anything and it’s not worth anything and the issue of what kind of song should we sing and how should we sing them, and what instruments should be played - it doesn’t mean anything. God is not looking down at how we lay out the chairs or how we set the platform or what kind of lighting we have; God’s not looking for that kind of stuff – He’s not that bothered. He enjoys it, but He’s not that bothered.

What He wants to know is whether something is happening from our hearts.

And when we argue over such stuff, we're straining at theological and practical gnats and forgetting the camel - which will kill us if we swallowed a camel.

[NacDan]

If you know our church fellowship - a Vineyard, ...
THAT would explain all those purple stains on your shirt!!

:clap:

[Asaph]

If you know our church fellowship - a Vineyard, in many things we are ultra-creative and ultra-contemporary. But you see that’s not where God is. God is not in the contemporary or the traditional. Paul is an interesting guy, and he comes up with this whole thing in Galatians and he argues with them about whether one should be circumcised or not circumcised, and after he argued it all and put a great case he says, ‘but none of that matters anyways.’ He says the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. So he said look, I’ll argue it with you but at the end of the day it doesn’t mean anything and it’s not worth anything and the issue of what kind of song should we sing and how should we sing them, and what instruments should be played - it doesn’t mean anything. God is not looking down at how we lay out the chairs or how we set the platform or what kind of lighting we have; God’s not looking for that kind of stuff – He’s not that bothered. He enjoys it, but He’s not that bothered.

What He wants to know is whether something is happening from our hearts.

And when we argue over such stuff, we're straining at theological and practical gnats and forgetting the camel - which will kill us if we swallowed a camel.
Perfect. Amen and Amen.

Asaph

[Andyman_1970]

If you know our church fellowship - a Vineyard, in many things we are ultra-creative and ultra-contemporary. But you see that’s not where God is. God is not in the contemporary or the traditional. Paul is an interesting guy, and he comes up with this whole thing in Galatians and he argues with them about whether one should be circumcised or not circumcised, and after he argued it all and put a great case he says, ‘but none of that matters anyways.’ He says the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. So he said look, I’ll argue it with you but at the end of the day it doesn’t mean anything and it’s not worth anything and the issue of what kind of song should we sing and how should we sing them, and what instruments should be played - it doesn’t mean anything. God is not looking down at how we lay out the chairs or how we set the platform or what kind of lighting we have; God’s not looking for that kind of stuff – He’s not that bothered. He enjoys it, but He’s not that bothered.

What He wants to know is whether something is happening from our hearts.

And when we argue over such stuff, we're straining at theological and practical gnats and forgetting the camel - which will kill us if we swallowed a camel.

Excellent post Andry............................. :thumbsup:

[Andry]

THAT would explain all those purple stains on your shirt!!

:clap:
LOL! :D

Our men's group is coming to my house next weekend....for wine tasting! And evening of wine-bibbing...how's that? (Although we'll not re-enact the Corinthians!)

No agenda, no program, just good food, good wine, and good fellowship. If you're in town, you're most welcome!

[want2modmygt]

Why not? It's another instrument for praising the Lord. We have drums, guitars,a trombone to name a few. Tamborine, too!
:amen: ^ The louder the better! Let's rock His house!!!!

If any of you have ever been to acquire the fire, they have bands there that play. its awesome. i must say. the most fun praising the Lord ever. last year, when i was there, the number of people at the event was astounding. we filled the entire RCA dome in indianapolis. everyone singin and praisin. its an awesome sight to behold. if any of you havent been get a chance to, jump on it. it is worth it.

[NacDan]

LOL! :D

Our men's group is coming to my house next weekend....for wine tasting! And evening of wine-bibbing...how's that? (Although we'll not re-enact the Corinthians!)

No agenda, no program, just good food, good wine, and good fellowship. If you're in town, you're most welcome!
One of our GiG's (Groups Investigating God) is sort of like that, it's called S.O.S. (Soup On the Stove). No agenda, no program, just good food and fellowship.

I've been looking for an excuse to go to Canada. :D

Danny

[NacDan]

I hate to think that people would think me less holy or out-of-line just because there are drums in my church. I praise our God the same way you do...with my heart. Whether it's with Ludwig or Hammond has no reflection on that, and if you think it does...you're not looking deep enough.
I was right there with you until you said LUDWIG or HAMMOND...

Danny

(Wanted to make a comment about how it has to be PEARL or YAMAHA drums, but...well, :P I forgot where I was going with this...)

[Starcrystal]

I've played Native American deerhide drums in church. The Psalms talk about praising God with the symbols, and symbols go with drums....

[SnowDove]

I was right there with you until you said LUDWIG or HAMMOND...

Danny

(Wanted to make a comment about how it has to be PEARL or YAMAHA drums, but...well, :P I forgot where I was going with this...)
Huh? OH...ok! Lol...I thought you meant that you didn't understand. Lol...here, I'll edit it:

"Whether it's with *Insert choice of drums* or Hammond has no reflection on that..."

Better? ;)

[Corban]

i say yes, in fact i would say yes to any instrument, because in praise and worship & honor and gloryfying God in church & everyday life i believe that how much more will it be pleasing to God if u worship & honor Him with the gifts he has given you, for a drummer that means druming etc...

[muffler dragon]

I was right there with you until you said LUDWIG or HAMMOND...

Danny

(Wanted to make a comment about how it has to be PEARL or YAMAHA drums, but...well, :P I forgot where I was going with this...)
I would have to agree here, Danny.

Particularly Yamaha Maple Customs. I have Yamaha Stage Customs, but would much prefer the Maple. Oh, well...

m.d.

[Glisten]

Bad idea.

[white dove]

I would like to say that drums arn't exactly wrong, it depends on its used. The banjo was used by witch-doctors in africa before america used it in bluegrass type music. I don't think that the banjo is a bad instrument, in fact I wish I could play it! So It depends on how the drums are used. And I believe Music in the assembly is a very good thing, it says to sing to the Lord in many places in the Bible. Is that not true?
-GasTank-
Wow...all these pages & it took 7 to get to where I initially thought this discussion was leading to ..:scratch:
I'd seen this guy talking on one of our christian channels awhile ago who was giving a *sermon* about this very same issue: music, the occult & how both of these merge so well, ppl rarely notice when the one's been influenced by the other ~his equation?

drums + any kind of music = demon worship

In his opinion, there was no need to listen to music, other than that primarily heard within the church; only prob is that he had such an issue with drums (as he'd mentioned voodoo & how those who practiced voodoo would get possessed, etc al. ) & seemed to insinuate that any kind of music that'd included drums was satanic (which makes me scratch my head b/c..alot of churches I've visited have drums (and drummers ;) as an integral part of the worship band). I didn't get his name (as I didn't really wish to read any articles he'd written), so I cannot give an adequate resource for this~sorry. But, as much as this man's message annoyed me (or shall I say, in the manner in which he delivered that message, moreso than anything else), I'd have to say, he did raise a valid point, don't you think?

btw, I love the drums!! There is nothing quite like sitting up front in a worship service, where you can actually feel the pounding, while worshipping our Lord..woo-hoo!! :clap:

okay...*is done for now* :sorry:

[sinner/SAVED]

Well, you know if we had drums, that would require a drummer, and you know drummers, he would probably have too long (or too short, or some funky color or cut) hair, and he probably doesn't even own a suit and tie, and what if he brought some of his musician friends. Heavens no, just wouldn't be appropriate. We can't have THAT type of people in God's house. What were you thinking even to suggest such a thing.

[NacDan]

Well, you know if we had drums, that would require a drummer, and you know drummers, he would probably have too long (or too short, or some funky color or cut) hair, and he probably doesn't even own a suit and tie, and what if he brought some of his musician friends. Heavens no, just wouldn't be appropriate. We can't have THAT type of people in God's house. What were you thinking even to suggest such a thing.
First time I went to my current church, the lead guitar player had a goatee, two ear rings, long hair, was wearing a tee shirt (that didn't have Jesus on it), shorts and sandles...and he was the NORMAL one....

:D

Danny

[Los]

I play them at my church. Its a necessity.

[brother daniel]

Drum away. THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND. Don't you remember what the master said to Peter about his ECCLESIA: CHURCH?

And I tell you, you are Peter (little rock), and on this (big) rock I will build my ecclesia, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

WE are that ROCK, disciples of Jesus Christ who live and preach HIS words of SPIRIT and POWER given to him by our FATHER IN HEAVEN.
WE are ONE with ALL HIS CREATION. ALL CREATION WAITS FOR OUR MANIFSTATION. WE ARE ONE becaus we love him who first loved us.
As his disciples we can forgive and avoid sin. WE dont need to do it again becaus we have something better to do.
Jesus said follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
Bring your drums and gather together around a fire, Woodstock style as we do in Bethel ,New York. MY 26 year old son, THYL EGGINK, was a druming disciple in Bethel until he was shot through the heart and killed, Oct. 16, 2004 while watching the Jets on TV. THYL's last word were,'Thank you Jesus".

[dadio]

Drums are good

[brother daniel]

Yes drums are good and the most important drum is the eardrum. When you read the words of Jesus can you hear him speaking to you.

[white dove]

Yes drums are good and the most important drum is the eardrum. When you read the words of Jesus can you hear him speaking to you.
LOL!! good one, sassy-pants ;)

[lismore]

drums + any kind of music = demon worship



I think its not the instrument but what you play on it. Some drum styles/ beats definitely came from the occult but drums can be used to praise he Lord yes?

The sufi muslims (aka whirling dervishes) are big on flutes but does that make flutes wrong to use? They use flutes and drums to go into a trance. But you can also use flutes and drums to praise the Lord.

BTW I like the celtic drum can anyone play it? Been meaning to get one for ages! the Bodhrann!;) Play it with a little stick with a pommer on each end.

[SnowDove]

I just don't understand why people can't get past the outside appearance and look at the HEART! That's what God does. Do you think that in the original church (when Paul was alive) was like the church is today? Times and culture change! Drums don't mean demon-worship or from the occult...it means there's some guy or gal sitting behind a set giving praise to Jesus differently than what you prefer. It's a drum...not a human sacrifice. It's not disrespectful...you honestly want to put God in a box and say that he doesn't enjoy the praise that flows from a band rocking out in His house...leading the hearts of a congregation in worship? My parents go to a church that feeds them...that helps them grow closer to God. So do I, but we just happen to have a band. A century ago, church members would have had an aneurism at some of the things going on in conservative churches today. What you have to ask yourself is not if drums are evil in church...but are the leaders of worship right with God and leading you to His throne? Look past the question of organ or drums into the hearts of those worshipping...and those leading it. I find it highly offensive for someone to call my church disrespectful when they haven't dug into the heart of the church...the outreach that we have. We aren't just a band...we're a body just like your church. Instead of tearing each other down with pointing fingers and accusing...we could be supporting each other. We aren't comptetion...we're partners.

[brother daniel]

Snowdove said,
"I find it highly offensive for someone to call my church disrespectful when they haven't dug into the heart of the church...the outreach that we have."

The Holy Ghost says, "Great peace have they who love thy law and nothing shall offend them.
Praise the Lord. Drum away when you are with like minded people but forgive and pray for those who mock you or or your congregation.
The main thing is leading people to repentence from sin so they can enjoy the their liberty in Christ without being self endulgent and selfrightous.
The only kind of worship Jesus requires is "DO WHAT HE SAYS"

[SnowDove]

Snowdove said,
"I find it highly offensive for someone to call my church disrespectful when they haven't dug into the heart of the church...the outreach that we have."

The Holy Ghost says, "Great peace have they who love thy law and nothing shall offend them.
Praise the Lord. Drum away when you are with like minded people but forgive and pray for those who mock you or or your congregation.
The main thing is leading people to repentence from sin so they can enjoy the their liberty in Christ without being self endulgent and selfrightous.
The only kind of worship Jesus requires is "DO WHAT HE SAYS"
Too right, you are. Thanks for your advice. :hug:

[BubblesRelena]

In the book of Psalms there is a scripture that says has the words "praise him with the loud cymbles (SP)". there's also more to it, but that part right there says that back in the day, bible days, they had cymbles. Now, cymbles are apart of a drumset. I, being a drummer, am a little parshal to drums. But I've noticed that if it's an apostolic service if you don't have the beat going and the music just right then you ain't got a holy rollen time. Drums, to any apostolic holy roller is essential. I don't know what you believe on being apostolic, but I know, that drums is a key ingredient to breaking down the walls and getting people to run the isles.

~BubblesRelena

[brother daniel]

Can you hear Jesus beating on your ear drum? He wants your attention. Has he got it? In Woodstock, New York we gather every Sunday at 4 pm on the village green for a drum circle. We also gather in Magic Meadow on full moons. Some of us are disciples of Jesus and we share the gospel with others who gather.
What is our purpose? It is to call whosoever will out of habits of sin and into a new life in Jesus Christ. Like Jesus said a few get the message and act upon it.
Most continue in their own sin and darkness refusing to repent.
But we keep fishing and praising the Lord Jesus who has called us.

[DrFate]

When pre-recorded drums in music are used druring prayer time, I find it very distracting.
When live drums are used in prayer service it can be useful.
The times I have been praying with Amerindian drumers, I have found that I enter into a prayer state very quickly.

[Dr.Phil]

Without the drums.. there wouldn't be a beat.. everyone would have to clap and so forth..

[nick18]

and lots of people have issues with timing ;)

[Knight]

Drums are fine.....


It's the drummers you have to watch out for. Those guys are nuts.... :P

[Dr.Phil]

and lots of people have issues with timing ;)Yes.. alot of the older people.

[bogie]

I think the drums are just as eligible for worship in Gods eyes than any other instrument. Here's a sorta bad example here, but you wouldn't tell someone who couldn't sing good, that they couldn't. Gods sees us worshipping as an act of obedience and love for him no matter what tools we use to do it with.