"Saved By" date

[Songspinner]

Does it annoy anyone else to be asked when you were saved. I mean if you actually have a date, and have lead a life without God Previouse to now, well then more power to you. BUt what about those of us who were baptised as children and feel that we have always been saved??

[ahab]

It depends on theology. At one end of the scale I suppose, if someone has always believed and followed Jesus, then they have probably always been saved, and if someone was baptised as an infant and have never since believed or followed Jesus they have probably never been saved.
Furthermore IMO we work out our salvation so.

[AveMaria]

IWhen asked snarkily, I have been known to say:

1) I was born correctly the first time;

2) Gee, I guess I *always* believed in the 10 Commandments and the Nicene Creed.

3) Salvation is not a one time event, it is a continuing, life-long process.

[SirTimothy]

I know. I have this issue with some people as well. I've been a believer all my life--but every day we need to re-dedicate our live, our work and our very being to Him, for his service. That's what's most important.

Timothy

[Wigglesworth]

This, like other differences between varying Christian traditions, is just a word game. What the person asking the question really wants to know is, "When did you begin your relationship with Jesus Christ?" Many Christians start their relationships with the Lord after they are old enough to make the decision for themselves, not because they were baptised as infants. The underlying follow-up question is "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your saviour, and therefore know for sure that you will go to Heaven when you die?" If you take the question that way, you can give a response that satisfies both of you.

;)

[pmcleanj]

I think "Saved by" dates are very important, and should be included in the meta-data for every electronic document in order to maintain the document-integrity and ensure engineering practices remain fully auditable. ;)

A six-year-old cousin (from the Evangelical Missionary Brethren side of the family) asked my elder daughter "have you invited Jesus into your heart?" Dear daughter looked at her like she'd just turned into a talking squid before her very eyes. I finally said "we don't usually use those words to describe our faith. We believe that in the Sacrament of Baptism, we become children of God, members in Christ, and inheritors of the Kingdom of Heaven." Then the child's mother looked at me like I'd just turned into a talking squid, and after a pause said defensively, "well, those are the words we use", and changed the subject.

The thing is, as ahab says, it's a matter of doctrine: and the words you use reflect your doctrine. If you truly believe that Sacraments are effective, then yes, your relationship does begin with baptism. But a relationship with God exists within kairos -- sacred time -- which is not linear and unidirectional. And if relationship, not remission of punishment, is the purpose of salvation, then knowing you will go to Heaven when you die sounds like a non-sequitur. An honest, compassionate response requires that we recognize the question comes out of a very different soteriology than is the norm in the Anglican Church. Hence, an honest compassionate response requires a dialogue that the original question may not be -- in my experience, usual is not -- prepared for. And therefor costs more emotional effort than we may be prepared for.

I usually find it easier to be a talking squid, in those circumstances.

[AveMaria]

As usual, pmcleanj, you are significantly more eloquent than I ever could be. :thumbsup:

[TomUK]

Pmcleanj, i hope very soon you become a member of staff so i can send one of those praise reports off. Superb! :thumbsup:

[Inside Edge]

pmcleanj - as perfect as a response could be, I think.

But too balanced and diplomatic for my current mood.

I'm with you Songspinner: it's annoying. But getting annoyed by it is telling of ourselves: as pmcleanj's post explains, it usually means one wasn't prepared or thoughtful about where the question came from. To get annoyed, means we've got some gut-reaction defensiveness (or something) going on, because really, what's to be annoyed with?

I used to get annoyed with the question, to the point that I rationalized out a "date" for the sole benefit of those who asked the question of me. Give 'em a date, and they act all understanding and friendly to you, case closed. But I realized I was still getting annoyed at a few who asked me the question, nonetheless.

So it really isn't the question itself that was bothering me - my feelings and awareness of my own faith and beliefs are secure enough that I don't feel threatened by the question. I think I'm actually annoyed by the nerve or assumptions of the person who is asking the question.

At which point, I have to realize that I'm obligated by my beliefs and faith to understand where that person is coming from, and so again I have to refer to the already referenced post above.

[Wigglesworth]

Even in Anglican soteriology, there must be a difference between what happens during water baptism and the point in time when one can make a personal decision to follow Jesus Christ. Otherwise, why is there a sacrament of confirmation?

Many fundamentalists who were raised in a Christian home are unable to pinpoint a date of salvation, believing that they have been Christians for as long as they can remember. This is not so different from being a cradle Episcopalian in terms of relationship with the Lord.

[gtsecc]

What is the latin for :

I was saved, I am being saved, I shall be saved?

[pmcleanj]

Even in Anglican soteriology, there must be a difference between what happens during water baptism and the point in time when one can make a personal decision to follow Jesus Christ. Otherwise, why is there a sacrament of confirmation?
Confirmation is a much-discussed sacrament, as we struggle to understand it fully in the light of our Traditional understanding of Baptism.

Confirmation is not a Sacrament of Initiation. Anglican thought is well united on that. The Sacrament of Baptism is complete in and of itself, and no further initiation is required.

So, what is Confirmation, other than -- as some wags have put it -- an outward and visible form in search of an inward and spiritual grace. It is not the taking on of the Baptismal covenant. The 1662 catechism makes it clear that that commitment is undertaken during catechesis, not at the Confirmation. The 1662 confirmation services acknowledges three functions at Confirmation: conformance to the practice of the apostles who laid hands on those who were Baptized, public acknowledgement of the baptismal vows made in infancy (a mortal action, not the divine grace that occurs in baptism), and strengthening by the Holy Spirit in order to carry out the work of the Church (this is the "inward and Spiritual Grace" imparted by the outward and visible sign of Episcopal laying-on of hands).

The difference between Baptism and Confirmation parallels the difference between "being Saved" and discerning your ministry. All mature Christians are called to some ministry -- but we observe both in Scripture and in modern praxis a time of maturing between our first conversion, and that Call to service. I do not believe it is by accident that the same Sign -- laying on of hands -- marks Confirmation as marks Ordination: they are both Sacraments that empower the Christian for a particular ministry.

[Polycarp1]

Unfortunately, the form won't allow you to fill in the correct date: 3:00 PM Jerusalem time, Good Friday, 29 A.D.

[Inside Edge]

Unfortunately, the form won't allow you to fill in the correct date: 3:00 PM Jerusalem time, Good Friday, 29 A.D.Do you even have evidence for that time and date? ;) Otherwise, your salvation date is up for grabs. :D

[PaladinValer]

1st, You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pmcleanj again.
Someone do me the honors!

2nd, Our baptism begins our walk and seals us as the Christ's own for life.

3rd, Polycarp, you are dead right. All the proof he needs is St. John 3:16.

[RobNJ]

1st,
Someone do me the honors!


Gotcha covered!
:thumbsup:

[Inside Edge]

All the proof he needs is St. John 3:16.I was being facetious (unsuccessfully). :( I clearly spend too much time in the "General forums", where us 'saved-types' aren't given much room to maneuver when it comes to spiritual insights and the like. Basically, I was "busting his chops" for the sake of it.

[RobNJ]

I'm more interested in my "Sell By" date, I don't want to get too stale ;)

[Wigglesworth]

All mature Christians are called to some ministry -- but we observe both in Scripture and in modern praxis a time of maturing between our first conversion, and that Call to service. I do not believe it is by accident that the same Sign -- laying on of hands -- marks Confirmation as marks Ordination: they are both Sacraments that empower the Christian for a particular ministry.
I like this. A booklet on Confirmation I picked up at church presented this same position. It's still a comfort to know, though, that the church requires one who is to be confirmed to make a personal commitment to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord in addition to the vows of the sponsors at baptism. (BCP 415).

[Songspinner]

Unfortunately, the form won't allow you to fill in the correct date: 3:00 PM Jerusalem time, Good Friday, 29 A.D.
:bow: I am so saying that next time someone asks me when I ws saved:thumbsup:

[CSMR]

What is the latin for :

I was saved, I am being saved, I shall be saved?
Salvabar, Salvor, salvabor

Neque salvor neque salvabor nisi salvatus sum.
Ergo in hora una non salvor, tametsi in hora quidem me cognosceam salvatus esse.

[gtsecc]

What is the Greek for :

I was saved, I am being saved, I shall be saved?

[Songspinner]

Do I hear Arameic??? How about Hebrew?? :P

[RobNJ]

Do I hear Arameic??? How about Hebrew?? :P


I can go to the 7-11, & get you the Farsi translation ;)

[PaladinValer]

I wouldn't mind a Klingon translation myself ;)

Q'pla!

[gtsecc]

I wouldn't mind a Klingon translation myself ;)

Q'pla!
vItoDlu'taH

Klingon doesn't have true tenses; {vItoDlu'} is perfectly correct for past, present, and future depending on the context. You can say {vItoDlu'pu'} for the "perfect aspect," meaning the action has been completed (I have been/had been/will have been saved), or {vItoDlu'taH} for the imperfect aspect, meaning that the action is ongoing (I was/am/will be being saved) if you want to emphasize those meanings.

[AveMaria]

^_^ I'm continually amazed at the useful things I learn on this forum!

[RobNJ]

^_^ I'm continually amazed at the useful things I learn on this forum!


don't blink...you'll miss stuff!! :thumbsup:

[gtsecc]

...still waitinf for someone to post the Greek.

[Bingley]

eswqen, swizomai, swqhsomai

Actually, the iota in the present should be subscript, but I haven't worked out how to do accents, breathings and subscripts with this font.

[Father Rick]

So what is the official Klingon branch of the Anglican Communion?:D





Oh look... it's a Klingon saying vespers ---->:mad:

[Polycarp1]

So what is the official Klingon branch of the Anglican Communion?:D
Elsewhere!

[PaladinValer]

Its on Kronos, of course! :)

We also have an underground movement in the Delta Quadrant among the Borg ;) :D

[ps139]

I don't get the whole "I am saved" thing.

If right now, you were saved, wouldn't you be in Heaven?????

[seebs]

This is a topic I'm much interested in, simply because neither my wife nor I could possibly name a specific date. Looking back, I think I've been Christian for eight or nine years, but I'd have a hard time narrowing it down...

[Father Rick]

Its on Kronos, of course! :)

We also have an underground movement in the Delta Quadrant among the Borg ;) :D
I thought the Borg were all Roman Catholic... you know the whole "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" thing...:cool:

[ps139]

Lol ^_^

[Songspinner]

I thought the Borg were all Roman Catholic... you know the whole "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" thing...:cool:


Ohhhh...you gonna start a fight now ;)

[Bingley]

And which saints would the Klingons and Borg name their churches after?

[seebs]

I keep thinking the thread's title is "Sell-by Date".

[PaladinValer]

Why, St. Seven of Nine of course! :P

And St. Warf, Son of Mogh. Or perhaps St. Martok ;)

[AveMaria]

I keep thinking the thread's title is "Sell-by Date".
:D ^_^ :D There's more than a few in my parish who have definately exceeded their expiration date!

[gtsecc]

eswqen, swizomai, swqhsomai

Actually, the iota in the present should be subscript, but I haven't worked out how to do accents, breathings and subscripts with this font.How is that spelled using the Roman alphabet?

[Songspinner]

Why, St. Seven of Nine of course! :P

And St. Warf, Son of Mogh. Or perhaps St. Martok ;)

Ok now I know some of us have far to much free time! ^_^

[PaladinValer]

Free time? I wish :(

But I try to have fun when I can ;) :P

[Father Rick]

And which saints would the Klingons and Borg name their churches after?What about St. Tiberius?











Only the true Trekkies will probably get that one...

[ps139]

LOL I'm no Trekkie but I get that one, thats classic!

[RobNJ]

What about St. Tiberius?













Only the true Trekkies will probably get that one...

As in somebody's middle name?;)

[Polycarp1]

Especially if it's Church of Scotland (The Auld Kirk)!

[TomUK]

I don't get it, and that's a fact i'm remarkably pleased of!

[PaladinValer]

**Assimilates TomUK as a new Anglican trekker drone**

Resistance is futile! :P

[Carrye]

What was the OP about again? ;)

[RobNJ]

What was the OP about again? ;)
Trust me, the turn it's taken is an improvement!!:clap:

[Carrye]

Trust me, the turn it's taken is an improvement!!:clap:
Good, then I won't feel bad about neglecting the first five pages. To be honest, it made me feel like I was back in OBOB, where every other thread gets hijacked (usually by ZooMom) :) ... but you didn't hear it from me.

[Diane_Windsor]

Does it annoy anyone else to be asked when you were saved. I mean if you actually have a date, and have lead a life without God Previouse to now, well then more power to you. BUt what about those of us who were baptised as children and feel that we have always been saved??Nope, because I have a date :P, 25th March 1990, and was raised in a Christian enviroment. Even though I was raised in a Christian enviroment, I didn't become a Christian myself until I was close to being a teenager.

I agree with what Wigglesworth said. The underlying question is when did you turn to Jesus? The language that people use to describe this experience is different.

[Bingley]

How is that spelled using the Roman alphabet?eswqen, swizomai, swqhsomai = esothen, soizomai, sothesomai, the underlined vowels being long, the th sound being traditionally (if inaccurately) pronounced as in thin.