Is Christianity Pagan? Invite: Messianic Jews

[Highway of Life]

To anyone interested.

Formal debate on if Christianity is Pagan, or some Beliefs of Christianity are Pagan.

Highway

[ShirChadash]

*sigh*

[Highway of Life]

*sigh*Are you in?

[ShirChadash]

not remotely. Apparently, saying that there were ever any pagan elements incorporated into Christian practices at any time in any way is nothing other than "Christian-bashing". MJs tend to be a pretty law-abiding group, I'd say, and I doubt you'll get takers to this, since it would just be another good set-up for us to be labelled Christian-haters here.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1132015-christian-bashing-in-mj-forum-all-must-read.html

[Highway of Life]

not remotely.
Oh, I thought so.

I wondered what "*sigh*" meant

Highway

[muffler dragon]

To any Messianic Jews.

Formal debate on if Christianity is Pagan, or some Beliefs of Christianity are Pagan.

Highway

How would you like to structure the debate?

Do you intend on having a moderator on this?

Let me know how formal of a set-up you intend on having and then I'll let you know.

m.d.

Oops, I forgot. I'm a Messianic gentile, does that exclude me from this opportunity?

[rooster]

Define pagan

[Toney]

Frankly, I hope this topic, while needing clarification (by definition, Christianity is neither pagan nor neo-pagan), attracts some interest. It could be edifying.

Shalom

[Angel of Harmony]

God did not create paganism. Man created this device to be against the Holy God. If the pagan devices are taken to be changed into Holy worship, and does not verbally shame God, and acknowledges him, and Jesus the Messiah, has this not become Holy, and good? Has not God ordained all days, and he did not give ANY to those who despise Him? How can anyone say any day is pagan, unless they have given it completely up to the pagans themselves, for God has not ordained such a thing. In this a person can rob God of what he has originally made.

Psalm 50:23
"Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God."




I am forever,
your Angel of Harmony :angel:

[Highway of Life]

How would you like to structure the debate?

Do you intend on having a moderator on this?

Let me know how formal of a set-up you intend on having and then I'll let you know.

m.d.

Oops, I forgot. I'm a Messianic gentile, does that exclude me from this opportunity?No, it would not exclude you. Many in CF who are Messianic Jew, are not really Jew at all. They are Gentile, who have accepted the new movement known as "Messianic Jeudaism".

A Gentile who accepted Christ is called a "Christian". A Jew who accepted Christ is called a "Hebrew Christian".

The debate would be pretty formal, while allowing some personal opinions.
I need to know who want's to join the debate before I know how to structure it.

Blessings in Christ,
Highway of Life

[Toney]

Define pagan

Highway,

Rooster asked an important question. Do you mean to imply that Christianity is pagan because it is polytheistic (Trinitarian)? Or, do you mean that it is pagan simply because it has allegedly adopted so many pagan traditions?

Pagan is a perjorative term and must be clearly defined.

[Highway of Life]

Highway,

Rooster asked an important question. Do you mean to imply that Christianity is pagan because it is polytheistic (Trinitarian)? Or, do you mean that it is pagan simply because it has allegedly adopted so many pagan traditions?

Pagan is a perjorative term and must be clearly defined.Excellent point, sorry, missed that.

Yes, actually the latter "Allegedly adopted pagan traditions"

Let me know if that helps,
Highway of Life

[muffler dragon]

Excellent point, sorry, missed that.

Yes, actually the latter "Allegedly adopted pagan traditions"

Let me know if that helps,
Highway of Life

+

[Toney]

m.d., You may have missed Post #10.

Highway, I hope you do not mind my making a suggestion: Re-issue the invitation so that the group asserting that Christianity is beset with pagan influences is not overtly linked to the Messianic community here at CF.

Many at CF believe that MJs are marginal Christians at best (Christianity in a kippa) and object to their inclusion in the congregational Christian-only forum. Consequently, MJs are very cautious when criticizing mainstream Christianity. They, commendably, prefer to live and let live. (I am not one, and have no standing to speak for that community.)

On the other hand, there are a number of Jews who regularly post at MJ (indeed, Jews even have a debate sub-forum there) who may be interested in pursuing your topic.

My position (just for the record) is that Christianity, in its gentile mission to pagans, and for the sake of expediency, adopted many pagan traditions over the years along with feasts, festivals, sacred places, and, for that matter, various pagan gods and goddesses now termed saints. So what?

Others believe that these pagan influences should not be so easily dismissed. They would, to a degree, charge Christianity with avodah zarah or "foreign worship" approaching idolatry, something forbidden in the Bible.

Anyway, just a few thoughts to move this idea along.

[muffler dragon]

No, it would not exclude you.

That's all I was really asking. The rest is just fluff (or derogatory, but willing to give the benefit of the doubt) as far as I'm concerned.

The debate would be pretty formal, while allowing some personal opinions.
I need to know who want's to join the debate before I know how to structure it.

Blessings in Christ,
Highway of Life


What exactly will be your stance?

[muffler dragon]

Toney:

If you were to enter this debate, what would be your stance?

Would it be a matter of validating the pagan influences without respect to "potential" repercussions? Or would it be the whole enchilada?

[Toney]

Toney:

If you were to enter this debate, what would be your stance?

Would it be a matter of validating the pagan influences without respect to "potential" repercussions? Or would it be the whole enchilada?

Rule 6 hangs over liberal heads like Constantine's sword and prevents Mexican takeout. That is probably a good thing, as it also prevents wholesale scandalization of the faithful.

My position is that is should not matter whether or not Christianity has adopted pagan forms of worship. Certainly, it clearly can be shown that it has.

Judaism is also guilty, though to a much lesser degree. What did Jacob do with that Caananite standing stone, for instance? YHWH constantly called the Jews back to pure monotheism, away from Baal and Astarte, et al.

The Shema, which apears below in my signature (Hear O Israel...), is a command to Jews and Christians alike. In the West, the Eucharistic prayer is addressed to Jesus. In the East (and I believe in Orthodox churches located in the West as well), the prayer is more appropriately addressed to the Triune God.

In the West, we may have strayed too far from the Trinitarian conceptualization, which paradoxically is the only way Christianity guards against idolatry: the Bible and, yes, even Jesus can become idols, as can religion itself. That would be my (unpopular) position.

I thought Mel Gibson's film, for instance, was ghastly. Pilate alone crucified Jesus for the crime of sedition and did not think twice about it. One of the most misunderstood (and deliberately mis-taught) episodes in the Holy Week narrative is the "cleansing of the Temple," which is where all Passion narratives must begin, not in Gethsemane. Our Lord knew exactly what he was doing: signing his own death warrant. It's why he went to Jerusalem in the first place.

Sorry, m.d. I am again getting carried away.

[muffler dragon]

Don't sweat it, Toney, I enjoy a good rant.

Furthermore, I like the points you brought up.

The reason I ask is just trying to figure out what stance HoL is going to take. Is he going to assert that there is nothing pagan within the realm of Christianity or is he not going to care about what has become a part of it (an ends-justififes-the-means type situation?

I'll wait and hear.

[Highway of Life]

Okay, I changed the topic to anybody interested. No specific group is invited, or targeted.

M.D. My stance is this: The practices of the original churches (Catholic and Orthodox) are not pagan. Though through some denominations, pagan practices have been adopted.

Blessings,
Highway of Life

[Toney]

That's a pretty short outfield stance, Highway. Better to guard against the long ball.

I think it is arguable that most of these pagan influences were well in place before the schism between east and west. You seem to be saying...

Though through some denominations, pagan practices have been adopted.

...that these influences crept into Christianity following the Reformation. It's arguable that such influences (demigod saints, Mary, magical priesthood) in part caused the Reformation.

If you leave off that sentence and avoid the Catholic vs. Protestant squabble, thus asserting:

The practices of the original churches (Catholic and Orthodox) are not pagan.

then I think we should have a go of it. Nathan (m.d.) and I, plus up to three others (them's the rules) will face you, Dave, and your partners TBD. I might suggest DefensOrFidei (Chris), who previously proposed this debate.

DoF thinks I'm a rotten Catholic, so I play him pretty shallow. I also have the greatest respect for him and for others like him who ardently defend the Catholic faith.

You still should address Rooster's question (define pagan). We'll need that word whittled down a little. I would love to see Rooster (Leslie) join the team, Nathan.

[muffler dragon]

In the immortal words of Doc Holliday, "Say, "When""

Before I forget, what is going to be considered legitimate sources? Are we to determine on a case by case basis or how do you want to do that?

[Highway of Life]

Real quickly:

Toney, I stated the east and west churches because they pretty much sum up Christianity, and yes, I am including Protestants in Christianity, but because there are so many Protestant denominations, we need a base for basic and indepth Christian belief. I believe that the Orthodox and Roman churches have the required base.

The reason for starting this debate: I was told that (unnamed) group/movement believe that celebrating Christmas, Easter, and other Christian Holidays are from pagan beliefs, and rituals.

This is for debating such things.

I hope that helps.

Highway of Life

[Highway of Life]

One more thing, this is not for debating Christian denominations (i.e. Catholic vs. Protestant. Catholic vs. Orthodox. Orthodox vs. Protestant etc.) This is for debating Christianity as a whole vs. those who do not call themselves "Christian" due to the fact that they believe that Christians have pagan practices.

Highway

[Paul S]

There's a difference between pagan practices and pagan beliefs. Pagans pray to their gods - does that mean Christians should not pray? Pagans have certain rituals - does that mean that all rituals are un-Christian? Of course not. The Bible tells us we should pray, and celebrating certain events was done throughout the Old Testament, at the command of God.

Just because the sun god used to be celebrated on December 25 doesn't mean that we shouldn't celebrate Christmas. When I go to church that day, I'm celebrating the birth of Jesus, our Saviour, our Lord, and our God, not worshipping the sun. When I decorate my Christmas tree, I'm not honouring the spirits which were believed to live in trees, but expressing my joy that God would send His only Son to save us fallen men. When I give gifts, it's because God commanded us to love our neighbour. At Easter, when we use eggs, they're a symbol of the resurrection of Jesus and the new life we will have one day, not a symbol of a pagan fertility goddess.

If all the pagan feasts had simply been abolished, many people would probably have celebrated them anyway, just to have an excuse to celebrate. Life in those days was constant hard work, and any break was welcomed. They'd probably have resented Christianity for taking away their holidays and been much less likely to convert. Telling them we'll still celebrate, but we'll celebrate Christian things now, goes over much easier. Meanings change over time, and we should look to the meaning of what we're celebrating, not where it originally came from.

Toney, you said "It's arguable that such influences (demigod saints, Mary, magical priesthood) in part caused the Reformation." I believe you misunderstand Catholic belief. The saints are human, not in any way divine, and we do NOT worship them. Any Catholic who worships anything except the Trinity is wrong. We honour the saints, because they are examples of good Christians who lived good lives and made it to heaven. When a sports team wins a championship, it's very common to throw them a parade. We celebrate their achievement, but the fans are not worshipping the athletes as gods. Likewise, Mary is not seen as a goddess, but is seen as the highest of all men (except, of course, her Son). Just as through Eve's "no" to God we fell, Mary's "yes" allowed Jesus to come into the world to save us. Her role in our salvation is very important, as we don't believe God would have simply picked another Jewish virgin to bear Jesus. He allowed Adam and Eve to disobey Him, and He likely would have done the same if Mary had said no.

Any power the priesthood has comes from God. Throughout both the Old and New Covenants, actions bring grace. God promised that if a Jew brought a certain animal to the temple, and the priest sacrificed it in a certain way, He would forgive the person's sins. At Passover, He promised that the sprinkling of blood on the doorposts and eating of the lamb would prevent the angel of death from killing their firstborn. Likewise, in the New Testament, God established similar rituals, including baptism and communion. Catholics also see marriage as a sacrament. When a man and woman promise to be husband and wife, it's not just meaningless words, but a true bond is created between them by God - "What God hath joined together, let no man separate." If you want to call this magic, so be it, but it's magic commanded by God. If you have any more questions about this, feel free to ask in OBOB.

[Toney]

Thanks, Paul. But the debate has not begun; this is not the place. We will eventually move, with selected teams and an established format, to the formal debate forum.

I consider myself rather well versed in Catholic beliefs, but should questions arise I will PM Michelina rather than ask in OBOB.

To clarify, one definition of a demigod is a "person so outstanding as to seem to approach the divine." (Webster)

[Toney]

Real quickly:

Toney, I stated the east and west churches because they pretty much sum up Christianity, and yes, I am including Protestants in Christianity, but because there are so many Protestant denominations, we need a base for basic and indepth Christian belief. I believe that the Orthodox and Roman churches have the required base.

The reason for starting this debate: I was told that (unnamed) group/movement believe that celebrating Christmas, Easter, and other Christian Holidays are from pagan beliefs, and rituals.

This is for debating such things.

I hope that helps.

Highway of Life


A number of Christians prefer not to celebrate Christmas and Easter for a variety of reasons. Messianics keep the Jewish feasts, others keep the old feasts of Saturnalia, the birthday of Mithra (Dec. 25) and the Vernal Equinox, which the (Western) church overlaid with Christmas and Easter.

It is interesting to note that the words easter and estrogen both come from Eostre, the Northern pagan moon goddess. Her symbols were the bunny (hare) and the egg.

For me, this debate is not about mealy-mouthed defensive explanations. I prefer to study the historical truths and lend meaningful, inclusive interpretations to them. It is an exercise in comparative mythology. I do, however, have some concerns about man-made religion.

For example, I am more comfortable with the Easter Bunny than with Papal infallibility.

I look forward to your posting of the debate rules, Highway. God bless you for tackling this very important issue.

[SolomonVII]

...
It is interesting to note that the words easter and estrogen both come from Eostre, the Northern pagan moon goddess. Her symbols were the bunny (hare) and the egg.....
This would be a good argument for Protestant England and Germany reverting to some sort of pagan belief. In most of the (non-English) Catholic world, though, the word for Easter has remained 'pasha' or 'paques', or some other Latinized version of the word 'passover'.
As far as the word easter goes, it is as likely that it derives from the word 'east', and the symbolism that is drawn between the sun rising from that direction, and the rising of our Lord.

[SolomonVII]

...
For me, this debate is not about mealy-mouthed defensive explanations. I prefer to study the historical truths and lend meaningful, inclusive interpretations to them. It is an exercise in comparative mythology. I do, however, have some concerns about man-made religion.

For example, I am more comfortable with the Easter Bunny than with Papal infallibility.
Perhaps we should also look at the pagan influences that have led us away from the Christianity of the first 1500 years of our history. The Reformation is directly related with the rediscovery of the (pagan) classics in western Europe. It was under thes philosphies of man that that the ancient ways became to be more and more disregarded by the likes of such systematic theologians as Calvin and Zwingli as superstitious relics of the past. The ways of Socrates, and not of the saints, were rediscovered and are again leading our youth into disbelief, but this time, Socrates refuses to drink his poison.

Of course the evidence of things unseen is by definition beyond the scope of a systematic discovery. Yet if we are to put our so-called pagan roots under the cold hard glare of the microscope, we must also look at the similar pagan roots of the ancient Hebrew religion as well. Observe for example, the twelve mythic tribes of Israel and the signs of the (babylonian) zodiac, the very similar attributes of the Canaanite god Baal and Yaweh, the practice of circumsicion and the Egyptian tale of the dismemberment and reassembly of Osiris, where all but the tip of his penis was reconstituted.

The list goes on and on. Noah is a mere Hebrew retelling of a more ancient flood myth, the Ten Commandments borrows form the Code of Hammurabi....
Once we strip this horrid 'paganism' out of our beliefs, the very pages of the Bible are becoming voided of all their purely Jewish content.

Is this the intent? In the name of purity, shall we strip Mary of the jewels befitting her role as queen, shall we empty the heavens of its saints, and reduce the Eucharist to pure symbol. The hyper-criticical biblical textual criticism that resulted from such a systematic methodolgy has already shown what it can do. At the same time we are purifying the heavens from their pagan influences, the Bible too has been likewise been cleansed until the pages too have become as lily-white as the purified heavens of this systematic theology.

Even as the Jews in Israel are making their deserts bloom, is it really to be the lot of Christianity to make a desert out of the once lush paradise that was the Christian heaven?

Moslems don't fear the beliefs
of the West. What they most fear is
our disbelief.

[Toney]

Solomon,

An excellent treatise demonstrating the pernicious consequences of systematic thought, not to mention its sinister kinfolks: systematic theology and systematic methodology.

Highway,

Are you having second thoughts?

[Topaz]

Before becoming Christians, we were all pagans until we received the atonement for sin, the salvation of Christ, and the gift of grace. We are never really that far removed from it until Christ comes again. If God can cleanse us from sin and paganism, he can certainly cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Once we have been filled with the Holy Spirit, you cannot rightfully call Christians pagans.

[muffler dragon]

Before becoming Christians, we were all pagans until we received the atonement for sin, the salvation of Christ, and the gift of grace. We are never really that far removed from it until Christ comes again. If God can cleanse us from sin and paganism, he can certainly cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Once we have been filled with the Holy Spirit, you cannot rightfully call Christians pagans.
That doesn't really address the debate invitation. Do you have interest in being a part of that?

[tattedschmoe]

i would like to know if i could be invited for this debate. i don't know too much about the formal debates here on CF, so i will have to look through the rules and all that, and if i should be accepted to come into this debate, this will be the very first formal debate that i've been involved in, so i'm rather ignorant on these matters of formal debates and informal debates, but the topic here is of great interest.

my stance on this is this:

paganism in Christianity is just a the effects of living in a fallen world. there is nothing wrong with it because, our hearts are the ones to dictate the factors of where we address our devotion to through whatever means. pagans and Christians a like, have similiarities in likings such as music, jobs, the cars we drive, the clothes we wear, the way we cut our hair, everything. then we have the comparisions within practices of our faith. prayer, speaking in tounges, prophecying, the story of the Great Flood, the story of Creation in the sense of some outside being creating us, the idea of the Trinity, and so on so forth.

so to believe that we have to get rid of everything possible to set ourselves apart from the world, would mean, we would have to give up our everyday life. we have to work because of the fall in the Garden of Eden, something based from sin, everything goes back to the Fall of the Garden of Eden, and the effects that the one sin caused. so to alienate that, would be to alienate our whole entire function of life. to truly be seperate of the world in the extreme interpretation of it, would mean we would have to have nothing in common with the pagans. no matter how big or small the issue is.

plus for one to believe in an extreme seperation of the world, would mean that historically they can prove that Judaism was the very first religion. if that was the case, then Judaism set the standard. well history has shown us that there were many other religions before the Jews. so this debate could also get into a literal or non-literal interpretation of the scriptures. does one hold the timeline of how the Bible mentions things with the history of humanity as the EXACT way, or does the Bible not mention that? i think that is very vital to point out Paganism in Christianity. because, before one can say, "it is wrong for paganism to be in Christianity in any way, shape or form" that means one has to prove that the set standard for all religions came with the Jews. if that cannot be proven, then i think we have to change our interpretation of that scripture. i think at that point, we have to interpretate that as, that all that matters is the intentions of the heart, and where we as the believers are aiming our service to.

the reason why i believe it is pivital to know if the Jews set the standard for all religion and spirituality is because of all the intricate laws that were in place at that point. everything in the Old Law went to with sinful behavior, the way we dressed, the cleanliness we ate, everything no matter how big or small was covered.

with this fact set straight, i think we can justly go about talking about the issue of the debate. because we're talking about paganism and Christianity.

with history showing us that there were religions and spirituality before the Jews, i think it shows us a vital point. Everything was made to give God the praise. anything and everything. and even before the Jews came along, people sought after God in their own way, and in the only way they knew how. the pagans set the stage of seeking God out, and then through the Jewish people, God reformed it, and then through Christ, God again reformed it. I say the pagans started the search for God because the effects of the Garden of Eden had to put it on that course because, God's intentions was not that way. I see the Garden of Eden's only intention was to live in perfect harmony with the Creator. none of these questions were coming to mind, because everything was perfect. The Fall in the Garden, I believe shows us why the pagans started the way to finding God, because we had to find God again. to be disconnected with God shows me that we were utterly restarting our search for our Creator again because of effect of what sin does in the seperation of mankind. so the pagans used the creation to search for God again. since everything was created by and for God, they had it going on the right track at first. then God came in with the Jews, thus giving the way and reforming us and giving us a way to get back to the closest point we can on this earth to the Garden of Eden. then of course Jesus came and shook everything up and changed everything and spirituality and religion progressed even further with Jesus Christ.

to alienate our pagans roots would be to alienate our humanity. to not be open minded to see the beauty of people taking things from this world, and making them holy to God, is nothing but closed mindedness based on the culture we live in (that is personal opinion.) so i say, as long as our hearts, attitudes, minds, spirits are aimed towards God, then I say we should welcome it. if it is a different god that we are aiming towards, then concern and caution should be brought up, only because the matters of the heart may not be on the right path.

there is my stance, and i am more than welcomed to join this debate if i am welcomed too. all i need to do is read the rules, and follow accordingly the best i can, according to my above statement of this topic. God Bless you all! <><

[Sephania]

I am not showing my cards as a few of you have already, I would just like to know if the team that is defending the position of "paganality" in the Christian church is Not OK with G-d, would be willing to have a Jewish woman on their team?

:)

[Toney]

I am not showing my cards as a few of you have already, I would just like to know if the team that is defending the position of "paganality" in the Christian church is Not OK with G-d, would be willing to have a Jewish woman on their team?

:)

At this point, Zayit, I think Highway, if he is still interested in the debate he initially proposed to Messianics, would warmly welcome you. I believe you have framed the debate well:

Pagan practices within Christianity are not okay with G-d.

While your assertion presumes that there are indeed pagan practices within Christianity, which some would insist is not the case, the assertion at least raises the debate to a higher level, so to speak. How does HaShem (the Jewish G-d whose name is so revered it may not be written) feel about it?

Both sides will have recourse to sacred scripture, since G-d Himself has spoken on this topic.

Thanks, Zayit, hopefully your participation will usher things along.

[muffler dragon]

Apparently, the interest in this debate has died.

[Toney]

Apparently, the interest in this debate has died.

Yep. Everyone appears to be gone. Yet it could have been educational, don't you think?

Anyone with even half a brain must acknowledge significant pagan influences in post-Constantinian Christianity. Whether that's a bad thing is another question entirely. Some claim it is, some claim it isn't, and some just can't stand to have the light shine on their most sacred ignorance.

Why are fundamentalist Protestants and popey-swacked Catholics so afraid of the truth, m.d.?

[tattedschmoe]

i would like to continue this topic on, but, i thought this was just the invitation, so that's why i showed my cards to some degree, and just waiting to see if it would be desicded to actually start up as a formal debate :)

unless i don't understand the idea of the non-participant commentary & debate invitations thingy :)

[muffler dragon]

Yep. Everyone appears to be gone. Yet it could have been educational, don't you think?

I do believe it would have educational and beneficial. Granted, my consideration is that it would have been more so for those on the other side of the fence; but I was/am more than willing to give it a shot and allow myself to garner some fruit.

Anyone with even half a brain must acknowledge significant pagan influences in post-Constantinian Christianity. Whether that's a bad thing is another question entirely. Some claim it is, some claim it isn't, and some just can't stand to have the light shine on their most sacred ignorance.

I will admit: I find it difficult to look at Christianity without the history of the situation. I am of the mindset; it's not a positive connection between the things of G-d and not. However, for those so inclined to think otherwise, I don't care. That's their opinion and right. I would just assume see sacred cows slaughtered on an open flame. :D

Why are fundamentalist Protestants and popey-swacked Catholics so afraid of the truth, m.d.?

I try not to think about this type of question much, but it does pop in once in a while. The most complementary understanding of the situation is that I tend to believe it's not the fault of the laity; but instead the hierarchy. Personally, I find it very similar to the "modern-day" tithe doctrine. The "pastors" need an income (and one that they commonly set); therefore, there is a "need" for that financial stability to flow into the church. Hence, the incorporation of an unsubstantiated doctrine. All I can say is I'm glad that G-d never took me in the path of being a "man of cloth". It would be very hard to leave that position of influence after having learned what I consider "truth".

[Highway of Life]

Greetings Toney, MD, tattedsaint, Zayit, Topaz, solomon, and Paul.

Do you guys want to begin the debate?

However, I am somewhat apprehensive...

This was meant as a debate between those who think that Christians have adopted such pagan practices as "Celebrating Christmas and Easter" from such groups as the "Messianic Jews.. etc..."
And those who believe that those practices (Celebrating Christmas and Easter etc...) are not pagan in the way that we (Christians) practice them.

However, I think that many of you believe that celebrating Christmas and Easter etc... is not pagan, therefore, unless you can find a similar topic to debate, I believe we are all on the same side. Correct me if I am wrong.

Highway of Life

[Highway of Life]

popey-swackedIs "popey-swacked" a word? If so, what does it mean?

Highway of Life

[Toney]

However, I think that many of you believe that celebrating Christmas and Easter etc... is not pagan, therefore, unless you can find a similar topic to debate, I believe we are all on the same side. Correct me if I am wrong.

Highway of Life

Well, I am glad we finally got that settled. ;)

No Highway, I don't believe popey-swacked has been approved as a word.

[Sephania]

At this point, Zayit, I think Highway, if he is still interested in the debate he initially proposed to Messianics, would warmly welcome you. I believe you have framed the debate well:

Pagan practices within Christianity are not okay with G-d.

While your assertion presumes that there are indeed pagan practices within Christianity, which some would insist is not the case, the assertion at least raises the debate to a higher level, so to speak. How does HaShem (the Jewish G-d whose name is so revered it may not be written) feel about it?

Both sides will have recourse to sacred scripture, since G-d Himself has spoken on this topic.

Thanks, Zayit, hopefully your participation will usher things along.

No, it is not a presumption, it is fact proven time and again, I thought we were past that and agree? For there is too much evidence to prove otherwise. That is why I stated it as you put:

Pagan practices within Christianity are not okay with G-d.

So I think this would be a place to start. Some other things to be addressed under this heading would be
1. Why has HaShem allowed this? ( if he has and is in complete control)
2. What is the duel purpose?
3. What will this signify in the end of days or how will this play a part in the end of days?

Maybe we should just start with the understanding that pagan traditions, deities and "holy days" were incorporated in the early stages of the adolescent church but at this point in her maturity should be refined out, as it is dross that keeps the church from being purified. And then move on to answer the questions above?

[Sephania]

Greetings Toney, MD, tattedsaint, Zayit, Topaz, solomon, and Paul.

Do you guys want to begin the debate?

However, I am somewhat apprehensive...

This was meant as a debate between those who think that Christians have adopted such pagan practices as "Celebrating Christmas and Easter" from such groups as the "Messianic Jews.. etc..."
And those who believe that those practices (Celebrating Christmas and Easter etc...) are not pagan in the way that we (Christians) practice them.

However, I think that many of you believe that celebrating Christmas and Easter etc... is not pagan, therefore, unless you can find a similar topic to debate, I believe we are all on the same side. Correct me if I am wrong.

Highway of Life

I for one am not one of these. Perhaps some more definition needs be.
Is pagan foundational?
Or is it condtional? Meaning that because the foundations were set from pagan rituals but changed to be "godly" they are OK and are no longer pagan, or because the foundation of them was pagan that the chnage is not effective?

[Toney]

I for one am not one of these. Perhaps some more definition needs be.
Is pagan foundational?
Or is it condtional? Meaning that because the foundations were set from pagan rituals but changed to be "godly" they are OK and are no longer pagan, or because the foundation of them was pagan that the chnage is not effective?

It would be difficult to convince pagans, either the "old religion" or the modern "neo-pagans," that they were/are not worshippng their creator. To argue that pagan is foundational in my view would be absurd. But you raise an interesting perspective.

{Edit in} Whoops! I missed the double post; read only the second. If you claim that Christmas and Easter, and both certainly trace influences to the Old Religion, are "dross," and that Christianity, as we know it, needs to be purged of its pagan influences, I take issue with the first and would not care to debate the second (perhaps others would). This second assertion to me is beyond silly as it rests entirely upon the notion that pagan is foundational, as you say.

The foundation of Western Christianity is Christ crucified. One could argue, I suppose, that the Eastern church's emphasis on the resurrection is more appropriate, or even that the teachings of Jesus have often become lost in the squabbles, but to equate Christianity with paganism is, well, offensive.

[Sephania]

I thought we were speaking of practices? The foundation of those is what I meant. Chrsitmas and Easter were mentioned and I was speaking of the foundation of those.

[Toney]

Okay. I do not wish to hijack Highway's invitation to debate this issue. However, with his permission perhaps we could move forward with a debate on this assertion:

Pagan customs and practices, such as those found in the Christian celebrations of Christmas, Easter and Halloween, are not okay with G-d.

That particular viewpoint is held by most Messianic Jews, I believe. It also holds sway with some other Protestant demoninations such as the International Church of God.

In addition to Zayit, does anyone wish to participate? I will argue against the assertion, with Highway's permission.

N.B. We will agree to stipulate that Old Religion (pagan) customs and practices contributed significantly to modern Christian custom and practice in the celebrations of these religious holidays. So much so, in fact, that two of them retain only a veneer of religious significance for a great many people who consider themselves Christians.

If a potential participant disagrees with the above stipulation, that is a different debate.

[muffler dragon]

My intent for argument was to present information that shows the orirgins of Christmas and Easter are pagan. More or less, a presentation that "Christ's mass" has nothing to do with December 25th and what that date has in general concerning other pagan religions. A similar approach was going to be taken with Easter.

Here is my stance in general: I don't care what anyone else does concerning Christmas and Easter. My household will not be celebrating it due to information that I have learned. If we're going to be deducing whether a Christian should or should not celebrate such days, then I will go ahead and remove myself from the debate. I simply don't care.

m.d.

[Toney]

m.d.,

If I understand your position correctly, you would (1) be interested in an informative debate asserting the Christmas and Easter (perhaps also including Halloween) find their origins, customs and practices in pagan religions.

You would (2) not be interested in debating whether modern celebrations of these religious holidays are, due to their pagan origins, displeasing to God.

I agree, we should debate either one or the other.

Maybe Highway has a thought or two.

Assertion #1, IMO, is a slam dunk. A simple read of history reveals overwhelming evidence of pagan influences in Christmas, Easter and Halloween.

Assertion #2 is at least arguable. But to do so one would have to assume that God's instructions to the ancient Israelites regarding paganism apply equally to Christianity. I have several problems with this position. First, if you throw out Leviticus (as Christians should: these laws apply only to real Jews), why fret about other sections of the Torah that also obviously applied to a particular time in the ancient history of the Israelites and to rabbinical Judaism (but not to Christianity).

Secondly, it is anathema to my post-modern Christian mindset that we should be so intolerant as to judge the religious practices of other Christians.

If something educational may be gained from such a debate, it is worth having. But, like you, I really could care less. I am quite comfortable, thank you, with my Christmas tree (from the Druids -- my ancestors), the Easter Bunny (symbol of a northern fertility goddess), and my grandchild's ghost costume last Halloween (from the Celtic Samhain festival).

He was really cute in it plus we got a lot of candy treats.

[Sephania]

I'm sorry my proposition caused such a problem. I withdrawn my offer in this invite.

[Toney]

I'm sorry my proposition caused such a problem. I withdrawn my offer in this invite.

What problem? I don't see any problem.

We are simply discussing how to proceed; if we proceed at all.

[Highway of Life]

Greetings in the name of Jesus Brothers and Sisters,

Zayit, you are welcome to join the debate, it would not be called a debate if everybody agreed on the same point of view.

Toney, you are welcome to proceed, would you like to be the one to start the thread?

m.d. The debate is not on IF we should celebrate the holidays, but rather if the holidays are okay.

If everybody agrees, the dabate will be on "Are pagan practices within Christianity okay? such as Christmas and Easter. And are they pagan practices?"

Highway of Life

[muffler dragon]

m.d.,

If I understand your position correctly, you would (1) be interested in an informative debate asserting the Christmas and Easter (perhaps also including Halloween) find their origins, customs and practices in pagan religions.

You would (2) not be interested in debating whether modern celebrations of these religious holidays are, due to their pagan origins, displeasing to God.

You are correct, sir.

If something educational may be gained from such a debate, it is worth having. But, like you, I really could care less. I am quite comfortable, thank you, with my Christmas tree (from the Druids -- my ancestors), the Easter Bunny (symbol of a northern fertility goddess), and my grandchild's ghost costume last Halloween (from the Celtic Samhain festival).

He was really cute in it plus we got a lot of candy treats.

And I've gone opposite in my household: don't celebrate Christmas, Easter or Halloween. But that is according to the conscience of my household.

Have a great day, brother.

[muffler dragon]

Greetings in the name of Jesus Brothers and Sisters,

Zayit, you are welcome to join the debate, it would not be called a debate if everybody agreed on the same point of view.

Toney, you are welcome to proceed, would you like to be the one to start the thread?

m.d. The debate is not on IF we should celebrate the holidays, but rather if the holidays are okay.

If everybody agrees, the dabate will be on "Are pagan practices within Christianity okay? such as Christmas and Easter. And are they pagan practices?"

Highway of Life

My interest only lies in "are they pagan practices?"

The other part, everyone else can debate.

[bill16652]

there are elements of all these holidays that are pagen but in what spirit do we celebrate them? i for one do not celebrate halloween as i believe this is a wicked day devoted to followers of satan. i do celebrate the other two even though i am aware that certain aspects are not christian but my celebration most certainly is.

[muffler dragon]

there are elements of all these holidays that are pagen but in what spirit do we celebrate them? i for one do not celebrate halloween as i believe this is a wicked day devoted to followers of satan. i do celebrate the other two even though i am aware that certain aspects are not christian but my celebration most certainly is.
And you're more than welcome to do so, Bill. As stated from my POV, I don't care. My conscience bars me from doing the same though.

[bill16652]

agreed my brother, i was not trying to debate, merely stating my stand on it. peace be with you

[Toney]

My interest only lies in "are they pagan practices?"

The other part, everyone else can debate.

m.d. and Highway,

"Are they pagan practices?" calls more for a definition than for a debate. For example, I am not sure I grasp how celebrating Christmas can be a 'pagan practice' unless it is practiced by pagans. Yet m.d., I know from our friendship that you do not consider mainstream Christians to be pagans and realize even if someone did, CF rules prevent making and defending such an assertion.

So, restating the topic of the debate as an assertion:

The pagan origins, customs and practices of Christian celebrations such as Easter, Christmas and Halloween offend God.

Once we set our teams, we may set some rules and begin the debate.

This charge of paganism in Christianity comes up on CF every year, you guessed it, at Easter, Christmas and Halloween, most frequently in OBOB and in the Messianic Jew forum. I hope m.d. and Zayit consent to participate on the affirming team. I hope someone, hopefully from OBOB, joins Saint Paul, me and Highway on the loyal opposition.

It should be informative. The Torah teaches one POV; Paul the other. Since both God and Paul often contradict themselves in the Bible, it's a wash and we can avoid dueling proof-texts.

[muffler dragon]

First of all, Toney, in order to preclude any potential ideas, I hope that you did not take my statement(s) above as affirming that you are a pagan. I would never do that sort of thing. I was simply agreeing with what you had said before about it being a "slam dunk".

"Are they pagan practices?" seems more a definition than a debate. For example, I am not sure I see how celebrating Christmas can be a 'pagan practice' unless it is practiced by pagans. Yet m.d., I know from our friendship that you do not consider mainstream Christians to be pagans and realize even if you do, CF rules prevent your making and defending the assertion.

You are correct, my pedantic friend. :D I, too, am a pedantic and I should have known better. My only point of contention in this whole process can be whittled down to the slam dunk: the pagan influences leading to the timing and eccentricities of Christmas and Easter. Is that clearer or worse?

And no, I don't consider mainstream Christians to be pagans.

So, restating the topic of the debate as an assertion:

The pagan origins, customs and practices of Christian celebrations such as Easter, Christmas and Halloween offend God.

Finally some clarity.

I hope m.d. and Zayit consent to participate on the affirming team. I hope someone, hopefully from OBOB, joins Saint Paul, me and Highway on the loyal opposition.

I don't know if I can even say that I wish I could; so I won't. But I can't join in this debate. The reason is the same as I stated before: I don't care what someone else does. There may come a time in life when G-d leads me in a direction to present such a case; but it is not now. If something offends G-d; then my first priority is to see if I am a culprit. And that is done through personal communion. I have too much to concern myself with concerning myself and my family that I care not to add another potential breach between acquaintances and friends on such a topic as this. Therefore, I shall bow out. My best to the rest of you.

Regards,

m.d.

[Toney]

First of all, Toney, in order to preclude any potential ideas, I hope that you did not take my statement(s) above as affirming that you are a pagan. I would never do that sort of thing. I was simply agreeing with what you had said before about it being a "slam dunk".

No, I was only demonstrating the need for eliminating that phrase from the debate topic. As for debating the 'slam dunk,' since no one took exception to the phrase I suppose it is a non-starter.



You are correct, my pedantic friend. :D I, too, am a pedantic and I should have known better.


Only Episcopalians are pedantic. ;) I used to be one and coverted to RC since people kept calling me pedantic. Can one be a pedantic pagan?

[muffler dragon]

Only Episcopalians are pedantic. ;) I used to be one and coverted to RC since people kept calling me pedantic. Can one be a pedantic pagan?

Btw, I was using pedantic in the matter of "precision". Not in a derogatory manner. :D

Have a good one.

[Toney]

m.d.,

You have summed it up best, I think. Who cares what others do? Who cares how they worship God, or how they call Him? God is God. Names are mere attributes, or a collection of mere attributes; an attempt of the finite human mind to apprehend and relationship with an infinite Divine Mind.

I have always believed that when God enjoined the Jews to 'root out' pagan practices from their worship He was mostly concerned by "other" gods, worshipping idols, and such abominable practices as human sacrifice. It took God several hundreds of years to successfuly get this point across.

Since I doubt that this thread actually evolves into a formal debate, here's a mind game.

Say you're God's counselor and the problem is coversion of the Roman Empire and assorted Northern barbarian tribes (Europe) to a monotheistic religion. It cannot be Judaism for a couple of reasons. First, the Jews are always to remain a separate (holy) people and witness to God in a special way. This is their eternal vocation. Secondly, circumcision just won't sell well to Eric the Red and that ilk.

Now, can anyone come up with a better overall plan than the one history has recorded over the last 2,000 years?

The church bequeathed us by Paul, Constantine, et al, for all its faults, still has been the greatest civilizing force the world has ever known (and continues to be). The power behind that spiritual force is Judaism and Jesus' demonstration of God's abiding love and fatherly care for all people.

[Highway of Life]

there are elements of all these holidays that are pagen but in what spirit do we celebrate them? i for one do not celebrate halloween as i believe this is a wicked day devoted to followers of satan. i do celebrate the other two even though i am aware that certain aspects are not christian but my celebration most certainly is.This is my position as well. I don't celebrate Halloween because of the cultic practices that go along with that holiday. I celebrate Christmas as Christ's birthday, not as Santa's gift-giving day. I celebrate Easter as Christ's resurrection, not as the goofy easter bunny that somebody made up.

Highway of Life

[Highway of Life]

m.d. and Highway,

"Are they pagan practices?" calls more for a definition than for a debate. For example, I am not sure I grasp how celebrating Christmas can be a 'pagan practice' unless it is practiced by pagans. Yet m.d., I know from our friendship that you do not consider mainstream Christians to be pagans and realize even if someone did, CF rules prevent making and defending such an assertion.

So, restating the topic of the debate as an assertion:

The pagan origins, customs and practices of Christian celebrations such as Easter, Christmas and Halloween offend God.

Once we set our teams, we may set some rules and begin the debate.

This charge of paganism in Christianity comes up on CF every year, you guessed it, at Easter, Christmas and Halloween, most frequently in OBOB and in the Messianic Jew forum. I hope m.d. and Zayit consent to participate on the affirming team. I hope someone, hopefully from OBOB, joins Saint Paul, me and Highway on the loyal opposition.

It should be informative. The Torah teaches one POV; Paul the other. Since both God and Paul often contradict themselves in the Bible, it's a wash and we can avoid dueling proof-texts.
Greetings in Christ Brother Toney.

That question/title would work fine.

Just a quick question, what do you mean by God and Paul often contradict themselves in the Bible, just curious.

I am from OBOB, are you not RC also?

I'm not sure a debate will ever come out of this, everybody comming out on the affirming team have gracefully bowed out.

So it could be Saint Paul, Bill, me, and Toney against a blank screen. ;)

I think we just enjoy the fellowship from brothers outside of our domains (denominations) :D

Highway

[Toney]

Greetings in Christ Brother Toney.

That question/title would work fine.

Just a quick question, what do you mean by God and Paul often contradict themselves in the Bible, just curious.

Of course, God cannot contradict Himself. At times Paul appears both pro-Israel and anti-Israel, but then again he wrote to different groups with different purposes in mind. Would that Biblical literalists understood this simple truth.

The tongue-in-cheek point I wanted to make went to the ineffectiveness of proof text arguments in a debate such as the one we proposed.

God clearly told the Jews to separate themselves from the Gentile (pagan) world and to root out pagan practices from their worship. It is extremely important even today for orthodox Jews (Hasidim) to strictly observe Torah and not to allow any foreign influences in their religion.

Hear also what Saint Paul sayeth: One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
... Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. (Romans 14:5ff)

Saint Paul (btw, I love the guy) realized early on in his ministry that his mission to the Gentile world would be fraught with difficulty. There can be no doubt in any Christian's mind that St Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit.

Many think that soon after he was knocked off his horse, he began his first missionary journey. Not so. It was nine years later, including three in the desert and five more back in Tarsus making tents before "being sent" by Barnabas.



I am from OBOB, are you not RC also?

Yes, but I no longer post there and seldom visit OBOB. Too much self-righteous catechism-speak and 'correct beliefs' make my teeth hurt.

I'm not sure a debate will ever come out of this, everybody comming out on the affirming team have gracefully bowed out.

So it could be Saint Paul, Bill, me, and Toney against a blank screen. ;)

I think we just enjoy the fellowship from brothers outside of our domains (denominations) :D

Highway


I have certainly enjoyed this thread, Highway. God bless you.

[muffler dragon]

Say you're God's counselor and the problem is coversion of the Roman Empire and assorted Northern barbarian tribes (Europe) to a monotheistic religion. It cannot be Judaism for a couple of reasons. First, the Jews are always to remain a separate (holy) people and witness to God in a special way. This is their eternal vocation. Secondly, circumcision just won't sell well to Eric the Red and that ilk.

Granted, perspectives are what make us view things differently, but I have to admit that this type of sentiment is something that I have a hard time swallowing.

Regarding the Jews, their calling is to teach the world Torah (be the light to the nations). Therefore, the teaching that should be brought forth to the world is quite perfectly one truth.

The other problem I have is the fact that this statement sounds very similar to one made by another acquaintance on this forum: how am I going to get the average redneck in ______, TX to stop eating his bar-b-que? Judaism makes no sense to him. To which I responded, the only reason it's difficult is because of the environment that that person is brought up in. Your statement above is very reminiscent of that sentiment. And to be honest, the part that confuses me is the fact that Judaism is stymied because of it's stipulations and regulations, yet Jesus Christ can reach the whole world? Doesn't that sound a bit strange that a Jewish man, who loved Torah, would be easily preachable to the world, but not his religion? Missionaries are sent all over the world to the tribal man and so forth; yet the effort is made to get him 'saved'.

Sorry for the rabbit trail...

Anyways... let's move on.

Now, can anyone come up with a better overall plan than the one history has recorded over the last 2,000 years?

Strangely enough, I could come up with a better plan; but it's not very excitable or expected. I alluded to it above.

The church bequeathed us by Paul, Constantine, et al, for all its faults, still has been the greatest civilizing force the world has ever known (and continues to be). The power behind that spiritual force is Judaism and Jesus' demonstration of God's abiding love and fatherly care for all people.

In this particular instance, I can't say that I would accept the "ends-justifies-the-means", and yes, that is a personal opinion.

Anyways... Toney, you know I love you man. So, I'll just drop the issue and this debate can get started if it ever does.

Regards,

m.d.

[Toney]

m.d.,

Love you, too.

Judaism made a conscious decision not to be a Universal religion and stopped competing with Christianity for converts centuries ago.

I doubt that there is a debate here. The most pagan thing about Christianity is not its holy days, but the notion that God would become Incarnate in a man. That is decidedly un-Jewish and untenable to Judaism.

[Blueskies]

I'd like to join this debate, with a small amount of reluctance due to the fact that I have been "corrected" in the past for my stance on the paganistic practices of "christianity." If plain speaking is allowed, I'd like to join in.


(http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)Exodus 23:33 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)
Do not let them live in your land, or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you."



(http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)Leviticus 18:3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=3&chapter=18&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.



Deuteronomy 12:30-32 (King James Version)

(http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)King James Version (http://bible.gospelcom.net/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9) (KJV)

30Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
(http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)

We are expressly forbidden to do as the pagans do, and yet many do it, and call evil good and good evil. It's ok to celebrate pagan festivals so long as I SAY that it's christian and slap a coat of christian paint on it.

BUZZ!! Wrong answer.


(http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=12&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)Deuteronomy 12:8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=12&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)
Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes
(http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=12&verse=8&version=9&context=verse)

IMHO, it can't be any clearer than that.

[Toney]

IMHO, it can't be any clearer than that.

You're probably right. The issue is, who is God instructing in your proof texts? The answer, and I believe most would agree with it, is the ancient Israelites.

Do these instructions apply to Christians? I think not. No more so than the New Testament applies to Jews.

Anyway, there does not seem to be a debate brewing.

[Highway of Life]

Saint Paul (btw, I love the guy) realized early on in his ministry that his mission to the Gentile world would be fraught with difficulty. There can be no doubt in any Christian's mind that St Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit.

Many think that soon after he was knocked off his horse, he began his first missionary journey. Not so. It was nine years later, including three in the desert and five more back in Tarsus making tents before "being sent" by Barnabas.

Yes, but I no longer post there and seldom visit OBOB. Too much self-righteous catechism-speak and 'correct beliefs' make my teeth hurt.

I have certainly enjoyed this thread, Highway. God bless you.Blessings to you brother Toney.

Isn't it interesting that Paul's ministry to the Gentiles was difficult, but Jesus who's ministry to the Jews was even more difficult?

I agree... you know, most people forget about the fact that Paul went into the desert for three years to spend time with God and repent. Some people think that as soon as Paul accepted Jesus, he went right into ministry. Not so.

I agree that the holy days are not the issue on "pagan" beliefs, but you could take it a step further, just being a Gentile would actually make us 'pagan' since we are not God's 'chosen people'.... whoof... that is a whole other theological discussion.

Indeed, being in OBOB makes my fingers hurt, and my head (from banging on a wall) But if Protestants didn't came into OBOB, I would not spend much time in there. There are a couple of people I have become friends with in OBOB, so I value my time talking with them.

M.D. and Toney, it has been a real pleasure speaking with both of you. I really value your opinions even if we disagree because you both present your debates without anger or strife, I can't tell guys how much I appreciate that.
M.D. especially in "What do you think of the Darwin Theory" thread.

Peacy Guys, it has been a joy.
Your Brother in Christ,
Highway of Life

[Highway of Life]

Exodus 23:33 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse)
Do not let them live in your land, or they will cause you to sin against me, because the worship of their gods will certainly be a snare to you."
(http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=23&verse=33&version=31&context=verse) If we tried to take this litterally in today's world, we are no better off than the muslims driving everything that is not muslim from their land. The point is, as a Christian, we worship one God, and no other.

Are there problems in Christianity where people are worshiping more than one God? yes... money, for instance is another God. And so are Cars, houses, furnature, jewlery, computers... anything or activity that we spend more time with than God the Father is a God to us.
But then, that is not just a problem with the Christians, it extends into the Jewish society as well.
So then you have 'pagan practices' in all societies, including Judaism. But God calls us all to set ourselves apart from this world.

-Highway of Life

[Highway of Life]

We are expressly forbidden to do as the pagans do, and yet many do it, and call evil good and good evil. It's ok to celebrate pagan festivals so long as I SAY that it's christian and slap a coat of christian paint on it.

BUZZ!! Wrong answer.



IMHO, it can't be any clearer than that.Peace to you Blueskies!:wave:

First of all, as a Christian, we are forbidden to celebrate pagan festivals.
However, Christmas and Easter are not pagan festivals.
Do non-christians celebrate them in a pagan way? yes.

But we Christians celebrate Christ's birth and Death on these holidays. We worship only God the Father on these days.

-Highway

[Toney]

Thanks, Highway. May the Lord bless you and keep you. I wish you well on your journey.

I appreciate your quote from Napoleon, a child of Destiny and the greatest military mind in human history.

[Blueskies]

Shalom and peace.

I appreciate what you are trying to express, but Christmas and Easter are pagan festivals. They were celebrated before Messiah, they were celebrated after Messiah's death and resurrection. Show me in scripture anywhere where we are told to take the pagan festivals and use them to honor our father. Show me where we are instructed to do as the pagans do and call it honor for our god. (As I recall, we are constantly admonished to tear down their alters, and not do as they do.)

I have no beef with celebrating the birth of Messiah, the most important human being who ever lived. However, that must be done on the day he was born, not incorporated into other religions and infected with their doctrine. Prophetically and logically, he was certainly born on the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashannah), so why not celebrate on his actual birtday, not the one ordained and approved to bring more pagan worshippers (and their money) into the church.

As for his death and resurrection, I think we can all agree that these events had a heck of a lot more to do with Passover than the worship of Ishtar and her impregnation. Why not celebrate it as our own messiah did. on the day it actually happened?

On the issue of Halloween, frankly, I think it's Satan's practical joke on us all. Here is a celebration of what is most dark about pagan worship. Here is a celebration where children were sacrificed and tortured, where families lived in terror of the coming of the druids to take their children for the appeasement of spirits. Yet here we, in our great wisdom, send our own children out to celebrate this most evil of days. It turns my stomach that he so easily deceives so many.

As for OT and NT, since when are the two seperated? As a Messianic Jew, I place as much faith in the Messiah, his death, resurrection, and return as any christian, if not more. I use the whole bible, not pick and choose the parts that I think apply to me. I don't believe we are called to treat the scriptures like a fast food menu. How can we just throw away one half of the word of the creator of the heavens and the earth? Are we so wise, we know better than him? It is his word!!

Just my final thoughts.

[Toney]

Shalom and peace.

I appreciate what you are trying to express, but Christmas and Easter are pagan festivals. They were celebrated before Messiah, they were celebrated after Messiah's death and resurrection. Show me in scripture anywhere where we are told to take the pagan festivals and use them to honor our father. Show me where we are instructed to do as the pagans do and call it honor for our god. (As I recall, we are constantly admonished to tear down their alters, and not do as they do.)

I have no beef with celebrating the birth of Messiah, the most important human being who ever lived. However, that must be done on the day he was born, not incorporated into other religions and infected with their doctrine. Prophetically and logically, he was certainly born on the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashannah), so why not celebrate on his actual birtday, not the one ordained and approved to bring more pagan worshippers (and their money) into the church.

As for his death and resurrection, I think we can all agree that these events had a heck of a lot more to do with Passover than the worship of Ishtar and her impregnation. Why not celebrate it as our own messiah did. on the day it actually happened?

On the issue of Halloween, frankly, I think it's Satan's practical joke on us all. Here is a celebration of what is most dark about pagan worship. Here is a celebration where children were sacrificed and tortured, where families lived in terror of the coming of the druids to take their children for the appeasement of spirits. Yet here we, in our great wisdom, send our own children out to celebrate this most evil of days. It turns my stomach that he so easily deceives so many.

As for OT and NT, since when are the two seperated? As a Messianic Jew, I place as much faith in the Messiah, his death, resurrection, and return as any christian, if not more. I use the whole bible, not pick and choose the parts that I think apply to me. I don't believe we are called to treat the scriptures like a fast food menu. How can we just throw away one half of the word of the creator of the heavens and the earth? Are we so wise, we know better than him? It is his word!!

Just my final thoughts.

Opinionated bunk.

[Highway of Life]

Shalom and peace.

On the issue of Halloween, frankly, I think it's Satan's practical joke on us all. Here is a celebration of what is most dark about pagan worship. Here is a celebration where children were sacrificed and tortured, where families lived in terror of the coming of the druids to take their children for the appeasement of spirits. Yet here we, in our great wisdom, send our own children out to celebrate this most evil of days. It turns my stomach that he so easily deceives so many.Hey Blueskies! :wave:

Shalom and Peace (Peace and Peace)?? ;)

I have a really good answer for each of your thoughts (good thougths BTW! :thumbsup: ) But I had to comment on this one real quick because I have to go, I will be back in a few days.

Comment, not Answer.

Isn't it interesting, that Halloween was a day that was/is (supposed to be) a Christian Holliday that the pagans have turned into a satanistic day.
And Christmas and Easter which used to be pagan Hollidays are no longer pagan, but are Christian.

So Halloween is now a Satan Holliday.
Christmas is now a Yashua Holliday.
Easter is now a Yashua Holliday.

Most in my Christian Community DO NOT celebrate Halloween because if this.

Sholom and Peace and Sholom and Peace and Sholom ;)
Highway
See you in a few days! :wave:

[SolomonVII]

....

Isn't it interesting, that Halloween was a day that was/is (supposed to be) a Christian Holiday that the pagans have turned into a satanistic day.
And Christmas and Easter which used to be pagan Hollidays are no longer pagan, but are Christian.

So Halloween is now a Satan Holliday.
Christmas is now a Yashua Holliday.
Easter is now a Yashua Holliday.

Most in my Christian Community DO NOT celebrate Halloween because if this....

As the world became Christian, the old pagan festivities throughout the year began to take on the new Christian meanings.

With internal divisiveness fragmenting and eroding our societies' once strong Christian foundations, the world is able to revert back to its various states of disbelief and materialism.

The pagans and anti-christians are now reclaiming the calendar to serve their own ends.

Just one more symbptom of a house divided agaisnt itself.

[Toney]

As the world became Christian, the old pagan festivities throughout the year began to take on the new Christian meanings.

With internal divisiveness fragmenting and eroding our societies' once strong Christian foundations, the world is able to revert back to its various states of disbelief and materialism.

The pagans and anti-christians are now reclaiming the calendar to serve their own ends.

Just one more symbptom of a house divided agaisnt itself.

Whatever.

Highway, Thanks for your PM. Is there actually going to be a debate? If so, someone needs to write the resolution. It seems that at one point during this thread, a workable resolution was proposed.

With the fertility rites of Easter just down the bunny trail, and a good moon rising, it's a fine time for us Christians to defend our religion against these absurd charges of paganism.

I should like to be on your team.

[SolomonVII]

....
Whatever.
...

.....

[Sephania]

You're probably right. The issue is, who is God instructing in your proof texts? The answer, and I believe most would agree with it, is the ancient Israelites.

Do these instructions apply to Christians? I think not. No more so than the New Testament applies to Jews.

Anyway, there does not seem to be a debate brewing.

the "New" Testament does not apply to Jews? :scratch:

[Toney]

the "New" Testament does not apply to Jews? :scratch:

Wait! Let me think for a split second.

Why, yes. You are indeed correct. New Testament instructions (hope you don't mind if we keep to context) apply only to Christians.

Instructions in the Koran do not apply to Jews or Christians, should your floopy be fuzzy on that point.

[urnotme]

Oh, I thought so.

I wondered what "*sigh*" meant

Highway I think there are some pagan customs that have been absorbed into christianity, but they're christian now so it's all right. Most people know that christmas and easter were once pagan. I don't think any religion is without pagan customs nor do I think that just because they were practiced by the pagans they are wrong.

[Highway of Life]

the "New" Testament does not apply to Jews? :scratch:If the Jews accept the New Testament, that means they accept Jesus as the promised Massiah. Which also means that if they accepted Jesus, they are Christian (Hebrew-Christian to be precise). Christianity is Judao-Christian. Our roots are Jewish.
But since Jews don't accept Jesus, the NT is not a part of their faith. Only the OT.

I hope that answered your question.
Blessings,
Highway of Life :preach: