Baptism: an alternative view

[Iosias]

Some minor questions arose in my mind concerning baptism which caused me to rethink my position upon it. Firstly, why does Paul state in I Corinthians I:xvii “For Christ send me not to baptise, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect”? Secondly, why do the requirements for eldership in both I Timothy III:i-vii and Titus II:ii make no mention of baptism? Thirdly, why do we find no mention of water baptism in the Pauline epistles, i.e. those epistles containing church truth?


Let us take a look at three verses:


I Corinthians XII:xiii “For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”


Ephesians IV:iv, v “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,”


Neither passage can be a reference to water baptism unless there is more than one baptism in effect today, but we know that is wrong for “there is…one baptism.” Also, if the baptism of I Corinthians XII:xiii was a reference to water baptism, then there would be no margin for the Holy Ghost to baptise us into the body of Christ. The “one baptism” must refer to Spirit baptism and not to water baptism.


Let us now turn to Galatians III:xxvii “For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ.” This cannot be referring to water baptism, unless it is water baptism that places us “into Christ”. Indeed, if it was referring to water baptism, it would make water baptism a requirement for salvation. According to verse xxviii, since we are all “in Christ Jesus,” we first had to be baptised into Christ. But if water baptism actually placed us “into Christ,” then we could not be “in Christ” until we were baptised in water.


I now turn to Romans VI:iii, iv “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptised into Jesus Christ were baptised into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” Our baptism into Christ (verse iii) agrees with Galatians III:xxvii as well as I Corinthians XII:xiii. Indeed, if it was referring to water baptism then we could not “walk in newness of life” without first being “buried with him by [water] baptism into death.” No! The verses above only make sense when understood as referring to the “one baptism” of the Holy Ghost that places us “into Christ,” into His “one body.”


So, in Ephesians IV:v we read of the “one baptism” – Spirit baptism - of this present dispensation as opposed to the two baptisms pertaining to the kingdom as illustrated in Acts II:xxxviii when Peter called upon individual Jews to “Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins [water baptism], and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [Spirit baptism].”


It is therefore my position that water baptism is not for the church and that is why the Pauline epistles do not mention it, and why being baptised in water is not a precondition of eldership.

[perfectlyok2]

Some minor questions arose in my mind concerning baptism which caused me to rethink my position upon it. Firstly, why does Paul state in I Corinthians I:xvii “For Christ send me not to baptise, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect”? Secondly, why do the requirements for eldership in both I Timothy III:i-vii and Titus II:ii make no mention of baptism? Thirdly, why do we find no mention of water baptism in the Pauline epistles, i.e. those epistles containing church truth?


[size=3][font=Times New Roman]It is therefore my position that water baptism is not for the church and that is why the Pauline epistles do not mention it, and why being baptised in water is not a precondition of eldership.

AV1611, Paul did in fact teach baptism for remission of sins to the gentiles, and it was most certainly mentioned in his conversion efforts.

"...Paul was constrained by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jeus is the Christ. And when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, "Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles." And he departed from there and entered the house of a ceratin man named Justus, who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagougue. And Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed, and were baptized. " Acts 18:5-8

I believe Paul was speaking of water baptism in all of the passages you mentioned, and the evidence is especially strengthned from this passage.

In the context of the 1st Corinthians passage, Paul tells us that he did baptize some but says he was glad he didnt baptize any more than he did because that was becoming a reason for divisions among brethren as some were claiming to be "of Paul" and some claimed to be "of Apollos" and others "of Cephus" instead of being unified in Christ. "Is Christ divided?" Certainly not! And this is exactly why Paul was glad he was doing more preaching than baptizing, so none could claim as such.

So if Christ commanded baptism, and all of the Apostles (Including Paul) and other Christian ministers were baptizing in water(Acts 8:36-38), how could you possibly reconcile "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" as Spirit baptism and not water baptism? You are right, there is only one, but it would seem to be in water.

[perfectlyok2]

DP

[Iosias]

AV1611, Paul did in fact teach baptism for remission of sins to the gentiles, and it was most certainly mentioned in his conversion efforts.
Acts 18
5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

I did not say that Paul did not baptise! Here he is baptising a Jew! Do you believe that the chief ruler of the synagogue would have been a Gentile? How do you know that Corinthians were gentiles...surely they were Jewish Corinthians?

[Iosias]

I believe Paul was speaking of water baptism in all of the passages you mentioned, and the evidence is especially strengthned from this passage.
So if Christ commanded baptism, and all of the Apostles (Including Paul) and other Christian ministers were baptizing in water(Acts 8:36-38), how could you possibly reconcile "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" as Spirit baptism and not water baptism? You are right, there is only one, but it would seem to be in water.
I Corinthians XII:xiii “For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

This tells us we are baptised into his body via Spirit baptism!

Ephesians IV:iv, v “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,”

This tells us that there is only one baptism.

Therefore: The Spirit baptism must be the one baptism of this present age.

[perfectlyok2]

So that would make water baptism enitrely irrelevant with no need of it whatsoever.

[Iosias]

So that would make water baptism enitrely irrelevant with no need of it whatsoever.
Exactly :). It is ONLY tradition which tells us we need to be baptised...Holy Scripture tells us otherwise.

[perfectlyok2]

Exactly :). It is ONLY tradition which tells us we need to be baptised...Holy Scripture tells us otherwise.

Wow...I guess Jesus had it wrong when he quoted Mark 16:16

[Iosias]

Wow...I guess Jesus had it wrong when he quoted Mark 16:16
That was in a different dispensation than what we are in now! That was said in the dispensation of KINGDOM, we are in the dispensation of GRACE! You MUST rightly divide the word of truth!!

[New_Wineskin]

Some minor questions arose in my mind concerning baptism which caused me to rethink my position upon it.
Those are good points . I usually bring up that it is mentioned 6 times in 5 books that Jesus was bringing about a new Baptism . John baptized in water but Jesus would baptize in the Spirit . When discussing "one baptism" , whose baptism would I consider to be that one baptism ? I asked that of myself .

[perfectlyok2]

That was in a different dispensation than what we are in now! That was said in the dispensation of KINGDOM, we are in the dispensation of GRACE! You MUST rightly divide the word of truth!!

You must show through scripture where these are seperate dispensations.

As far as I know, we are in(right now) the dispensation of His kingdom because of His grace. Wouldnt Jesus have made a distinction if there were to be two separate dispensations? Please show me so I may understand.

[Iosias]

You must show through scripture where these are seperate dispensations.

As far as I know, we are in(right now) the dispensation of His kingdom because of His grace. Wouldnt Jesus have made a distinction if there were to be two separate dispensations? Please show me so I may understand.
see:




DISPENSATION

A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. Seven such dispensations are distinguished in Scripture. (See Scofield "Genesis 1:28 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=1#Ge1_28)") , note 5.



The First Dispensation: Innocency. Man was created in innocency, placed in a perfect environment, subjected to an absolutely simple test, and warned of the consequence of disobedience. The woman fell through pride; the man deliberately. 1 Timothy 2:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ti+2:14) God restored His sinning creatures, but the dispensation of innocency ended in the judgment of the Expulsion Genesis 3:24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+3:24) See, for the other dispensations;

Conscience (See Scofield "Genesis 3:23 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=3#Ge3_23)")

Human Government (See Scofield "Genesis 8:21 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=8#Ge8_21)")

Promise (See Scofield "Genesis 12:1 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=12#Ge12_1)")

Law (See Scofield "Exodus 19:8 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ex&chapter=19#Ex19_8)")

Grace (See Scofield "John 1:17 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=1#Joh1_17)")

Kingdom (See Scofield "Ephesians 1:10 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=eph&chapter=1#Eph1_10)")

Be fruitful

The Edenic Covenant, the first of the eight great covenants of Scripture which condition life and salvation, and about which all Scripture crystallizes, has seven elements. The man and woman in Eden were responsible:

(1) To replenish the earth with a new order--man;

(2) to subdue the earth to human uses;

(3) to have dominion over the animal creation;

(4) to eat herbs and fruits;

(5) to till and keep the garden;

(6) to abstain from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil;

(7) the penalty--death. See, for the other seven covenants:

ADAMIC (See Scofield "Genesis 3:14 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=3#Ge3_14)")

NOAHIC (See Scofield "Genesis 9:1 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=9#Ge9_1)")

ABRAHAMIC (See Scofield "Genesis 15:18 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=15#Ge15_18)")

MOSAIC (See Scofield "Exodus 19:25 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=ex&chapter=19#Ex19_25)")

PALESTINIAN (See Scofield "Deuteronomy 30:3 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=de&chapter=30#De30_3)")

DAVIDIC (See Scofield "2 Samuel 7:16 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=2sa&chapter=7#2Sa7_16)")

NEW (See Scofield "Hebrews 8:8 (http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi?book=heb&chapter=8#Heb8_8)")

[Iosias]

You may also find the following helpful:
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app195.html
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app113.html
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app114.html
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app119.html
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app140.html
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app167.html
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app181.html
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app193.html

[Stinker]

We are in this same kingdom that Jesus talked about. (Mk.9:1), (Col.1:13) It is the same as the figurative body of Christ, the church, (Col.1:18) that our souls were transported into via water baptism. (Acts 8:36-39), (Gal.3:27)

[perfectlyok2]

AV1611, You need to show where Jesus made a distinction between the Kingdom and Grace. I dont need to see all that other stuff.

Jesus promised we would see His kingdom, and that we could enter it. You are going to have to show where that dispensation passed and a new one began.

[fiveinjuly]

Food for thought...

[Iosias]

Jesus promised we would see His kingdom, and that we could enter it.
Where did he say this? Quote me scripture.


You are going to have to show where that dispensation passed and a new one began.

Did you even look at the links for they would have answered your question! Jesus did not say there would be a new dispensation because it was hid in God and not revealled until Ephesians 3:1-12:

see: http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app195.html

and:

Ephesians 3
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

[Lumen Gentium]

No, Yeshua Himself taught that "you must be born anew by water and spirit". John 3.

Scripture does not contradict scripture.

Acts 3:37-41 "Repent and be baptized, all of you..."

Baptism as an act cannot be separated from water. The one baptism Paul speaks of is our union into Christ, each one of us.....he is not speaking of the baptism ritual in that sense, though it depends on each of us being baptised with water as Christ commanded.

[Theophorus]

It is therefore my position that water baptism is not for the church and that is why the Pauline epistles do not mention it, and why being baptised in water is not a precondition of eldership. Please forgive me, I do not mean to derail the thread, but I have noticed that you are very familiar with scripture so I am interested in your position on this.

Is Timothy an elder? If so he also does not fit the requirements given to him by Paul.
If not;
What was his status or authority for dictating the criteria of eldership?
What purpose was the laying on of hands on him by other prebysters?
Why was he not to lay hands on someone hastily? And what was the purpose of that laying on of hands if not to confer some sort of authority.

I am sincerely interested in your opinion. Please feel free to PM me.

Answers to these questions would indirectly influence a view on baptism as indicated by the OP.

[Iosias]

No, Yeshua Himself taught that "you must be born anew by water and spirit". John 3.

Scripture does not contradict scripture.

Acts 3:37-41 "Repent and be baptized, all of you..."

Baptism as an act cannot be separated from water. The one baptism Paul speaks of is our union into Christ, each one of us.....he is not speaking of the baptism ritual in that sense, though it depends on each of us being baptised with water as Christ commanded.
Jesus in speaking to Nicodemius was talking about Ezk 36 and 37.1-12 :)

[Iosias]

Please forgive me, I do not mean to derail the thread, but I have noticed that you are very familiar with scripture so I am interested in your position on this.

Is Timothy an elder? If so he also does not fit the requirements given to him by Paul.
If not;
What was his status or authority for dictating the criteria of eldership?
What purpose was the laying on of hands on him by other prebysters?
Why was he not to lay hands on someone hastily? And what was the purpose of that laying on of hands if not to confer some sort of authority.

I am sincerely interested in your opinion. Please feel free to PM me.

Answers to these questions would indirectly influence a view on baptism as indicated by the OP.
Are we told that he is?

[Theophorus]

Are we told that he is?
No,not directly, unless we take the footnote at the end in the Authorised version into account. We can only infer or speculate based on 2 Cor chapter 1, 1 Tim 4:6, 4:14, 6:20, 2 Tim 4:5, and maybe a few others. You guessing my position on this, I was wondering what was the scriptural reasoning for the "sons of Paul's" authority or position, are they viewed as ministers or evangelist only, if so does their authority come from being a kind of 2nd apostle?

[lismore]

It is therefore my position that water baptism is not for the church and that is why the Pauline epistles do not mention it, and why being baptised in water is not a precondition of eldership.
Hey man, I wouldnt say its not for the church but after reading Acts 19 and Acts 2 I would say baptism in the Holy spirit is the Big E!:holy:

[Iosias]

Hey man, I wouldnt say its not for the church but after reading Acts 19 and Acts 2 I would say baptism in the Holy spirit is the Big E!:holy:
Is there a baptism IN the Holy Ghost?

[- DRA -]

Some minor questions arose in my mind concerning baptism which caused me to rethink my position upon it. Firstly, why does Paul state in I Corinthians I:xvii “For Christ send me not to baptise, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect”?

Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians chapter must be considered in the context. There was division in the church at Corinth over who converted the different members. Paul's statement was in the context of voicing his disapproval of this division. Paul did baptize some in the church (see 1 Cor. 1:14,16). Considering the division in the church and why it was occurring, Paul was glad that he baptized only a few. How did the Corinthians respond to the gospel that Paul preached (see Acts 18:8)? In essence, Paul indeed preached about both faith and baptism. However, who baptized the Corinthians was NOT important. They were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ - - not in the name of the preacher (see 1 Cor. 1:12-13).

Secondly, why do the requirements for eldership in both I Timothy III:i-vii and Titus II:ii make no mention of baptism?

One of the requirements for an elder is to NOT be a novice (1 Tim. 3:6). A novice WHAT? Strong's defines a novice (the Greek word neophutos) as one who is "newly planted," or "a new convert, neophyte (one who has recently become a Christian)." The point being made in 1 Tim. 3:6? An elder was to be a mature Christian (see Heb. 5:14).

Now, back to your question . . . Why no mention of baptism? Because those qualified to be elders were mature Christians. Baptism is a requirement to become a new convert to Christ (see Acts 2:38; 10:47-48; 22:16). Potential elders had already obeyed the gospel of Christ.

Thirdly, why do we find no mention of water baptism in the Pauline epistles, i.e. those epistles containing church truth?

It's all a matter of harmonizing Scripture. Paul taught about baptism in Romans 6:3-11. Although water is not specified in the passage, what is detailed is what occurs in baptism. We become united with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection in baptism. We also become freed from sin (verse 7), and become alive unto God (verse 11). This thought harmonizes with 1 Peter 3:21, which declares that baptism (in water - see verse 20 as it is compared to verse 21) saves us - - by the answer of a good (clean) conscience through the resurrection of Christ. Thus, the baptism that Paul was teaching about was the baptism in water.