The Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden: How does it relate to physical death?

[parousia70]

I originally posted this as a response to another post.
I was heading off topic for that thread so I though it best to start anew.

I'll post both the original post by Tristan
along with my reply question which is now the topic/question for this new thread.

Originally posted by Tristan


Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

The word 'die' here is mistranslated. In the original hebrew, the word (in it's correct context) means 'dying you shall die'. This is added as a footnote in my bible (NKJV), but I was first told about it by the minister at my church.

i.e. this means that process of dying begins - which in of itself implies that Adam was going to live forever, and that if he ate of the fruit, then he would begin to die. But since you want scripture to support the 'living forever' stance:

Gen 3:22-23
22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"
23 "Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

If God hadn't kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden, they would have had access to the tree of life, and would have lived forever. Hope that helps :)

God bless,

Tris

Tristan brings up an interesting question I'd like to hear everyone comment on:

Would Adam have lived forever If he simply hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge, or was his eternal life conditional upon his eating from the tree of life?

Meaning, Could Adam have chosen not to eat from the tree of life and still lived forever?

An addendum would be, does one bite from the tree of life insure immortality, or would Adam have needed constant access to it's fruit?

**Note to moderators: Before you judge this thread to be unrealted to endtimes issues, I want to be clear that I posted it because I believe establishing the type of death brought into the world as a result of Adams sin is paramount to understanding the type of "ressurection" prophesied about for the "Last Day". Thank you for your sober consideration in this matter.
YBIC,
P70

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by parousia70
Meaning, Could Adam have chosen not to eat from the tree of life and still lived forever?

Hi Peter,

Nope it isn't possible! God sovereignly determines things, otherwise God wouldn't have received the glory of His Son saving the Church. heh, ok so I clearly avoided the issue and answered from a reformed perspective ;)

Anyway, I honestly don't know how to answer that. I like the reformed response to it, since it sounds valid and I have no idea! LOL!!

-Jason

[Mandy]

Very interesting question. Any answer though would be pure speculation I believe.

[davo]

Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

"dying thou dost die" This is a Hebraism, a Hebrew idiom (a form of expression having a significance other than the literal one). In the Hebrew, when a word (or series of words) is sequentially repeated it "intensifies" that word's meaning -giving it an unequivocle definitive position of certainty.

The literal Hebrew rendering is "dying die" (the difference in verbal tensing does not affect the idiom). This literally means without fear of contradiction (or as Jesus often said "amen amen" i.e., "truly truly!") you SHALL die! -and in this instance according to this verse "on the very day thou shalt eat thereof". This is NOT talking about the beginnings of a "process" of biological demise i.e., physical death -that however was a "natural" consequence of it.

This whole issue of "death" is important to get a grasp of. And a big problem straight up front is the impasse over this whole "spiritual versus physical death" argument. It is a wrong (Greek thinking) concept that has muddied the waters and brought much confusion and misunderstanding. Similar in kind to the confusion around "literal versus spiritual interpretation." -(in this instance ALL schools of thought do BOTH, it's just the justification for how or why this is done that differs).

'Death' in the Scriptures is not ONLY "physical." In relation to our stance before God more importantly it is "COVENANTAL." i.e., relational. Under the Old Covenant when someone was "cast out" of Israel they were "out of covenant" and therefore considered "dead" -their stance in fellowship was broken, they were out of fellowhip their brethren [the people of God] and therefore with God [and this invariably because of sin]. This is the "death" described in Eden. Lk 15:11-32 reflects the truth of this brilliantly -the son that was lost [dead] is now found [alive].

Lk 15:32 "It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found."

If by "literal" is meant "physical" then we are presented with problems beyond the text. Covenantal life is all about the restoration [or resurrection] from covenantal death -it was and is definitely "literal," it just isn't physical. As I have said elsewhere, Jesus literally meant "you must be born again" -he just didn't mean physically, it is covenantal. Nicodemus who hankered after a "wooden literalism" missed the spiritual reality [at that time] of Jesus' words.

Recapping my original point: dying/death IS covenantal -it had/has spiritual and physical consequences, and both are very literal.


For those of you who think this is just more "preterist mumbo-jumbo" so be it. For those of you who like to "think," I hope this has brought some understanding -and by "understanding" I don't mean you have to agree with me on this.

davo

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by Mandy
Very interesting question. Any answer though would be pure speculation I believe.


i agree, to an extent Mandy. for the sake of the argument's parameters set by the following quote by parousia70, the question in fact can be answered so far as pertaining to the ressurection. the fact Adam lived physically in paradise i think says much though.


Originally posted by parousia70
I want to be clear that I posted it because I believe establishing the type of death brought into the world as a result of Adams sin is paramount to understanding the type of "ressurection" prophesied about for the "Last Day".


there are 2 types of death, spiritual and physical. no other type of death is spoken of in the bible.

it does not matter if 1 or 10,000 bites are needed, or if the tree of life is a literal tree or not, the fact that access to it was needed for eternal life is suffecient.

also the only tree they were forbidden to eat of was the tree of knowledge, the tree of life is not mentioned until after they had already disobeyed God

Genesis 3:23-24
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now , lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" --therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

again, let me say it does not matter if these trees are allegorical or not, Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge and sinned, bringing about spiritual death, since they had done this they apparantly were unworthy to stay in paradise and have access to the tree of life, otherwise there would be no reason to kick them out. this brought about physical death.

more on these 2 deaths in the New testament.

now the tie in to the resurrection, but first a reminder of what the fruit they ate did; it gave knowledge of good and evil.

Christ came and redeemed us from the curse of law. he accomplished this on the cross.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree" --

why is this important? because of what the law does. it too gives knowledge of good and evil the same effect as the fuit of the tree of knowledge.

Christ's sacrifice redeemed us from the law, reversing the effect of knowing good and evil, the reason for the bansishment that cut us off from the tree of life.

we later learn The Holy Spirit gives us this Spiritual life as Paul attests to:

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.

so we see we have spiritual life..redemption. before mortal death. the curse brought by the eating of the tree of knowledge has been removed. but our bodies are still doomed to die they are still mortal, even if our spirit is not.


this brings us to the resurrection, the redemption of the body that is spoken of by someone who already has spiritual redemption.

Romans 8:11
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.

romans 8:10 shows us our spirits are alive, but our bodies are dead Romans 8:11 shows our mortal bodies will be raised as Christ's was.

so do we then have access to the tree of life?

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

the salvation process is the exact reverse of the cursing process. first, disobeying God(committing sin dying spiritually) an eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil brought about the banishment which brought about physical death(no access to the tree) Christ came redeemed us from the curse of the law. acceptance of the gift of Grace countered the effect of the fruit of knowledgegranting spiritual life), then through the spirit dwelling in us we are raised, brought back into paradise, and granted access to the tree.

[GW]

The Messenger,

God bless.

I really can't believe that you are still using Gal 4 to prop up your views that you have redemption (which you do not have according to Gal 5:5; Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30; Luke 21:28; Gal 4:5,9-12; 4:19-21; 5:1-5).

And, you're still using Romans 8 to prop up some SECOND redemption/adoption thousands of years apart from and different than the Gal 4 adoption/redeemption, which you call a first "spiritual one" in your system of eschatology. Yet Eph 1:13-14/4:30 lists your "spiritual" one (i.e., believing and being filled with the Holy Spirit) and calls it an "EARNEST of the redemption," and not the redemption! Eph 1:13-14 shows that you only have the EARNEST of the redemption but you do NOT have redemption (Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30), which is also why you can't go to Heaven in your eschatology until some future second coming perhaps thousands of years away.

Preterists have the redemption and not a mere earnest. Preterists have an opened Heaven teeming with joyous saints and departed loved ones.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by parousia70
I originally posted this as a response to another post.
I was heading off topic for that thread so I though it best to start anew.

I'll post both the original post by Tristan
along with my reply question which is now the topic/question for this new thread.



Tristan brings up an interesting question I'd like to hear everyone comment on:

Would Adam have lived forever If he simply hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge, or was his eternal life conditional upon his eating from the tree of life?

Meaning, Could Adam have chosen not to eat from the tree of life and still lived forever?

An addendum would be, does one bite from the tree of life insure immortality, or would Adam have needed constant access to it's fruit?

**Note to moderators: Before you judge this thread to be unrealted to endtimes issues, I want to be clear that I posted it because I believe establishing the type of death brought into the world as a result of Adams sin is paramount to understanding the type of "ressurection" prophesied about for the "Last Day". Thank you for your sober consideration in this matter.
YBIC,
P70

Hi parousia70 very good subject. Now may be we can get into a biblical view of death. God does give us some idea of what would have happend if Adam and Eve would have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever. One thing God shows us here is that He did not won't Adam to live for ever in that present condition. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever. (Genesis 3:22)

The very thought of Adam living in that present condition forever seemed to have taken God's brath away. In other words it was something about Adam living forever in that sin condition that God did not won't Adam to live forever.

God also tells us that something changed with Adam after he sinned. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings (Genesis 3:7) So it was something about their "change and falling-sin condition" that God did not won't Adam to liver forever.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by davo
Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

"dying thou dost die" This is a Hebraism, a Hebrew idiom (a form of expression having a significance other than the literal one). In the Hebrew, when a word (or series of words) is sequentially repeated it "intensifies" that word's meaning -giving it an unequivocle definitive position of certainty.

The literal Hebrew rendering is "dying die" (the difference in verbal tensing does not affect the idiom). This literally means without fear of contradiction (or as Jesus often said "amen amen" i.e., "truly truly!") you SHALL die! -and in this instance according to this verse "on the very day thou shalt eat thereof". This is NOT talking about the beginnings of a "process" of biological demise i.e., physical death -that however was a "natural" consequence of it.

This whole issue of "death" is important to get a grasp of. And a big problem straight up front is the impasse over this whole "spiritual versus physical death" argument. It is a wrong (Greek thinking) concept that has muddied the waters and brought much confusion and misunderstanding. Similar in kind to the confusion around "literal versus spiritual interpretation." -(in this instance ALL schools of thought do BOTH, it's just the justification for how or why this is done that differs).

'Death' in the Scriptures is not ONLY "physical." davo

Aman brother davo.

To be dead, as used in the Bible, can mean different things. It can mean to be dead physically; it can mean to be dead spiritually; or it can have yet another meaning. It is the last two interpretation of `the death' that will be our subject of study. However it takes some spiritual maturity to be able to answer that challenge. Let's look at a passage of Scripture that gives us a feeling for this third definition of death.

Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, `Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!' Therefore prophesy and say to them, `Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Ezekiel 37:11-14)

During the Babylonian captivity Israel was cut off from her homeland. They spent seventy years in another country. (Here's the point.) Israel was cut off from the promised land was, in the sight of God, as dead! All these Jews were alive physically, but as the Lord showed Ezekiel they were a valley of dry bones in a grave nationally. God in restoring His people to their own land uses the figure of graves opening and His people coming forth in national resurrection. Read again the passage form Ezekiel.

If you now understand this third meaning of death (national Jews cut off from the promised land), then you possess a valuable in understand the resurrection of the dead. What God did for Israel national, He later did for Iisael spiritually. In order to understand the Bible we most see things the way God see's them.

[davo]

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70
To be dead, as used in the Bible, can mean different things. It can mean to be dead physically; it can mean to be dead spiritually; or it can have yet another meaning.

G'day Mani, good post. Just by way of clarification for those following along. I agree with your post, however just to pre-empt confusion -I'm not actually talking about a 3rd option with respect to 'death.' I'm attempting reframe how we look at it. 'Covenantal death' brings separation to the "whole" man, physically and spiritually -i.e., temporally and eternally. We are either in relationship with God [LIFE] or we are not [DEATH]. And your reference to Eze shows this -thankyou. :clap:

davo

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW
The Messenger,

God bless.

I really can't believe that you are still using Gal 4 to prop up your views that you have redemption (which you do not have according to Gal 5:5; Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30; Luke 21:28; Gal 4:5,9-12; 4:19-21; 5:1-5).


i have the redemption Paul had and spoke of in the present tense pre 70ad, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. since i have the spirit that raised Christ from the dead in me when i die life will be givin to my mortal body also.



Originally posted by GW
And, you're still using Romans 8 to prop up some SECOND redemption/adoption thousands of years apart from and different than the Gal 4 adoption/redeemption, which you call a first "spiritual one" in your system of eschatology. Yet Eph 1:13-14/4:30 lists your "spiritual" one (i.e., believing and being filled with the Holy Spirit) and calls it an "EARNEST of the redemption," and not the redemption! Eph 1:13-14 shows that you only have the EARNEST of the redemption but you do NOT have redemption (Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30), which is also why you can't go to Heaven in your eschatology until some future second coming perhaps thousands of years away.


well if you do not like God's way of doing things i really do not know what to tell you, look how long it took from the fall to the redemption from sin the cross bought! spiritually i am connected to heaven now.


Originally posted by GW
Preterists have the redemption and not a mere earnest. Preterists have an opened Heaven teeming with joyous saints and departed loved ones.

so does this mean your in your immortal glorified body NOW? no? then your still waiting on THAT promise are'nt you? your still waiting on physical redemption to go along with your spiritual redemption...no different than Paul.

there are 2 redemptions clearly spoken of.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by davo


G'day Mani, good post. Just by way of clarification for those following along. I agree with your post, however just to pre-empt confusion -I'm not actually talking about a 3rd option with respect to 'death.' I'm attempting reframe how we look at it. 'Covenantal death' brings separation to the "whole" man, physically and spiritually -i.e., temporally and eternally. We are either in relationship with God [LIFE] or we are not [DEATH]. And your reference to Eze shows this -thankyou. :clap:

davo

Hi davo. This is the very point I was trying to show Willis for those following along. When Adam was casted out of the garden he was then separated of God and was actually seen as [DEAD] This separation was apart of the [sin death] that was passed down to all men through Adam.

It sometime blows my mind that our futurist brothers don't comprehend this is why Jesus said we mustall be born again. To be born again of the Spirit of God is called biblical resurrection. Those who have eternal [life or have been resurrected have no need of resurrection.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by The Messenger

it does not matter if 1 or 10,000 bites are needed, or if the tree of life is a literal tree or not, the fact that access to it was needed for eternal life is suffecient.

also the only tree they were forbidden to eat of was the tree of knowledge, the tree of life is not mentioned until after they had already disobeyed God



Hmmmmm,
I believe the although the tree of life was not mentioned specifically before the fall, it had to be included in this statement by God:
Ge 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

We know the only exception God gives to this statement is the tree of Knowledge, therefore the tree of life MUST be included with the term "every tree" yes?

My issue here, is that Adam had free will before the fall.
God makes it clear that access to the tree of life is what would enable Adam to "Live forever". I can't help but conclude that Adam, via his free will, would have had the ability to choose not to access the tree of life, had he not fallen.

I do not believe it can be argued that it is only "speculation" to say Adam had the free will to choose to access the tree of life or not, for the fact he had free will before the fall is biblically established. The only speculation would be how he would have excercised that free will, and I'm not going there.

All I need to do to legitimize my question is estalish the fact that he would have had the choice access the tree of life or not, had he not fallen, and I believe I have done just that.

This is where it gets sticky for many people.

Since it would have been Adams choice access the tree of life or not, had he not fallen, I do not see how it can be argued that had he not fallen, he automatically would have lived physically forever. That is pure speculation, and in fact, unknowable.

Therefore, we can not claim with any certainty at all, that physical death was not a reality for man before the fall.

We can not claim that the fall ushered in the reality of physical death for man. Therefore we can not assert that part of Christ's function is to "restore" that which can not be extablished was lost in the fall.

Comments?

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by parousia70


Hmmmmm,
I believe the although the tree of life was not mentioned specifically before the fall, it had to be included in this statement by God:
Ge 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

We know the only exception God gives to this statement is the tree of Knowledge, therefore the tree of life MUST be included with the term "every tree" yes?

My issue here, is that Adam had free will before the fall.
God makes it clear that eating from the tree of life is what would enable Adam to "Live forever". I can't help but conclude that Adam, via his free will, would have had the ability to choose not to eat from the tree of life, had he not fallen.

I do not believe it can be argued that it is only "speculation" to say Adam had the free will to choose to eat of the tree of life or not, for the fact he had free will before the fall is biblically established. The only speculation would be how he would have excercised that free will, and I'm not going there.

All I need to do to legitimize my question is estalish the fact that he would have had the choice to eat of the tree of life or not, had he not fallen, and I believe I have done just that.

This is where it gets sticky for many people.

Since it would have been Adams choice to eat of the tree of life or not, had he not fallen, I do not see how it can be argued that had he not fallen, he automatically would have lived forever. That is pure speculation, and in fact, unknowable.

Therefore, we can not claim with any certainty at all, that physical death was not a reality for man until after the fall.

We can not claim that the fall ushered in the reality of physical death for man. Therefore we can not expect Christ to restore that which can not be extablished was lost due directly to the fall.

Comments?

My point exactly brother. Christ never said he came to restore man from physical death. As a matter of fact Christ stated that he came to do the very opposite (John 3:3-8)

[Willis Deal]

p70,

We CAN claim, fully supported from scripture, that the fall ushered in physical death.

Let's assume you are correct, that Adam would have needed access to the tree of life to live forever. How does that change anything? The very fact that the tree of life existed in the garden PROVES that God intended for man to live forever, since as you pointed out God gave Adam permission to eat from all trees. So it WAS God's will for Adam to eat from the tree of life, just as it was God's will for Adam to abstain from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If Adam goes against God's will then he dies.

As a direct result of Adam's sin he was denied access to the tree of life. Physical death becomes a reality because there is now no way for Adam to avoid physical death.

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
have the redemption Paul had and spoke of in the present tense pre 70ad, which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
That is a blatant denial of the scriptures which never calls believing and the Holy Spirit the "redemption." Quite the contrary:

Eph 1:13-14
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession

What part of this verse don't you understand? Believing and being filled with the Spirit is an EARNEST UNTIL THE REDEMPTION. Notice how careful Paul is here to say that believing and being filled with the Spirit is NOT the redemption. Yet you blatantly deny this and call what you have (belief and the Holy Spirit) "the redemption." You are stuck and there is no way around this.

What is the "purchased posession?" THE CHURCH! (Acts 20:28). When does the Church get redeemed? In Paul's future at the time he was writing Eph 1:13-14.

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by parousia70
Hmmmmm,
I believe the although the tree of life was not mentioned specifically before the fall, it had to be included in this statement by God:
Ge 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

We know the only exception God gives to this statement is the tree of Knowledge, therefore the tree of life MUST be included with the term "every tree" yes?


that is what i assume too, i would not go so far as to say MUST though, but i believe it was included.

Originally posted by parousia70
My issue here, is that Adam had free will before the fall.
God makes it clear that access to the tree of life is what would enable Adam to "Live forever". I can't help but conclude that Adam, via his free will, would have had the ability to choose not to access the tree of life, had he not fallen.

that is possible, in our physical life we can choose to commit suicide or not... ;)

Originally posted by parousia70 I do not believe it can be argued that it is only "speculation" to say Adam had the free will to choose to access the tree of life or not, for the fact he had free will before the fall is biblically established. The only speculation would be how he would have excercised that free will, and I'm not going there.

All I need to do to legitimize my question is establish the fact that he would have had the choice access the tree of life or not, had he not fallen, and I believe I have done just that.

This is where it gets sticky for many people.

actually, that choice you refer to was the choice to disobey God and partake of the forbidden fruit, the immediate consequence was denial of access to the tree of life. Remember, Adam & Eve were informed that if he ate the fruit they would die. Satan told Eve "you will not die" They chose to believe Satan. but it seems they did not die? what is this! did God lie?

the answer is they did in fact die, biblically speaking there are 2 modes of existance(actually they are mixed together) spiritual and physical Adam and Eve did not physically die at the fall, therefore the death must have been spiritual since that is the only mode of existance left by process of elimination.


much later in history we see that accepting the gift of Grace removes the penalty of knowing good and evil, which is a choice as well, to Believe God or not, which was the choice Adam and Eve had. we also know that choosing to believe God(Jesus) will grant us access to the tree of life.



Originally posted by parousia70
Since it would have been Adams choice access the tree of life or not, had he not fallen, I do not see how it can be argued that had he not fallen, he automatically would have lived physically forever. That is pure speculation, and in fact, unknowable.

Therefore, we can not claim with any certainty at all, that physical death was not a reality for man before the fall.

the reverse is also true(and for the same reasons you just gave); we can not claim with any certainty at all, that physical death was a reality for man before the fall. Adam knew he had a choice, God told him if he chose to disobey he would die. he chose not to believe it.

Originally posted by parousia70
We can not claim that the fall ushered in the reality of physical death for man.
Comments?

in the act of "falling" physical death was in fact brought about by choice God told Adam he would die if he ate the fruit, he chose to eat it. and BECAUSE he ate it he was denied access to the tree of life, which eventually DID kill him physically...remember, God told him if he did this thing, he would die.

Originally posted by parousia70
Therefore we can not assert that part of Christ's function is to "restore" that which can not be extablished was lost in the fall.

congratulations! you have just intellectualized the meaning and the purpose of the cross away! do you then agree with the assertion that the cross was a "mere death"?

scripture tells us in no uncertain terms Christ died for our sins. alright, so why would he do that since you just philosophied the reason away?

Galatians 2:20-21
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose .

Romans 3:20
For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

[The Messenger]

quote by GW
"That is a blatant denial of the scriptures which never calls believing and the Holy Spirit the "redemption." Quite the contrary:

Eph 1:13-14
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession

What part of this verse don't you understand? Believing and being filled with the Spirit is an EARNEST UNTIL THE REDEMPTION.

GW your forgetting the "earnest" IS the Holy Spirit. you get the Holy Spirit by accepting the Gift of Grace...

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

and what is this "forgiveness of your sins"? also refered to as?

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses , according to the riches of his grace

and why do we need redemption from the law?

Romans 3:20
For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

just like that fruit eh? i do believe that brings us back on topic...

[The Messenger]

bump


where did all my preterist buddies go?

[davo]

Originally posted by The Messenger
bump

where did all my preterist buddies go?

LOL :D Messenger -perhaps they've been "ruptured" ;) [only joking mate :) ]

davo

[parousia70]

I'm back...

First:
Willis, you make it sound like If Adam had chosen not to access the tree of life, he would have disobeyed God.
This is simply untrue.

Ge 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

"may freely eat"

This is not God instructing adam that he "must eat" from every tree. God is saying to Adam, you are free to eat of every and any tree you so choose.

The only tree God said Adam was not to eat was the tree of knowledge. Choosing to eat that tree was the only choice Adam could have made that was "against" Gods will.
Choosing not to eat from the tree of life would not have been against Gods will as you would have it, for Gods will was for Adam to eat "freely", not "forcibly" from every tree except the tree of knowledge.


Messenger.
I see from much of your post, we can find limited agreement.

What I disagree with is the same thing I disagree with Willis about (imagine that). You seem to be claiming by your suicide remark that Choosing to abstain from the tree of life would be choosing against Gods will, when God mad it clear that Adam was "free" to eat from it before the fall, not "forced" to.

The only choice that was against God was the choice to eat from the tree of knowledge. Thats the only one. Adam could choose one day to eat a pear, then choose the next day not to eat a pear but to eat a mango instead. This choice not to eat the pear would not have been against God as you would have it, because Adam was "free" to eat from every tree.

Your statement that I have intellectualized the meaning and the purpose of the cross away, couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't believe the Cross was a "mere" local execution with no ramifications for us today any more than I believe AD70 was a mere "local" coming of Christ with no ramifications for us today.

Christ's finished work restored our seperation from God.
I believe Physical death was a reality for man before the fall, but once the fall erected the barrier between man and God, Physical death became a big problem. Christ fixed the problem, and now physical death has been restored back into Gods servant to bring man into a deeper level of human existance, which I believe was it's original purpose, intended from the foundation of the world.

Physical death, in and of itself, is not a "barrier" between man and God.

I'll say it again,
Christ didn't come to "restore" that which was not "lost".

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by parousia70
Messenger.
I see from much of your post, we can find limited agreement.

What I disagree with is the same thing I disagree with Willis about (imagine that). You seem to be claiming by your suicide remark that Choosing to abstain from the tree of life would be choosing against Gods will, when God mad it clear that Adam was "free" to eat from it before the fall, not "forced" to.

The only choice that was against God was the choice to eat from the tree of knowledge. Thats the only one. Adam could choose one day to eat a pear, then choose the next day not to eat a pear but to eat a mango instead. This choice not to eat the pear would not have been against God as you would have it, because Adam was "free" to eat from every tree.


the word "free" here is in the sense of "allowed" which would still leave choice, just as i am "free" to eat pizza one day or hamburgers the next, it does not matter what i eat, only the fact that i eat. i am "forced" to eat if i want to live this is true of pickles and fruit from the tree of life.



Originally posted by parousia70


Your statement that I have intellectualized the meaning and the purpose of the cross away, couldn't be farther from the truth. I don't believe the Cross was a "mere" local execution with no ramifications for us today any more than I believe AD70 was a mere "local" coming of Christ with no ramifications for us today.

Christ's finished work restored our seperation from God.
I believe Physical death was a reality for man before the fall, but once the fall erected the barrier between man and God, Physical death became a big problem. Christ fixed the problem, and now physical death has been restored back into Gods servant to bring man into a deeper level of human existance, which I believe was it's original purpose, intended from the foundation of the world.


when you look at how the seperation was restored, you find that this restoration is an undoing of the effect of knowing good and evil. Adam gained this knowledge from the fruit, we got it from the law, the effect was the same.

as for saying physical death was a reality for man before the fall, i disagree. just for kicks lets say adam had choice to live or not... and we find it does not matter because it is a moot point. we are different than Adam because since we presently have no access to the tree of life, we have no choice...we are going to physically die. it is not a choice for us nor was it a choice for adam after his banishment. though Christ we have rewon our right to it, but our access will not be until we are resurrected.

Originally posted by parousia70
Physical death, in and of itself, is not a "barrier" between man and God.

i agree. physical death in fact removes the barrier because we are resurrected with a body that is made worthy to be in His presence, just as becoming believers made us spiritually worthy. the barrier is the sin nature of the body. before adam and eve sinned, this barrier was not present.


Originally posted by parousia70
I'll say it again,
Christ didn't come to "restore" that which was not "lost". [/B]

actually he did, to have access to the tree we have to die and be resurrected, no Christ=no resurrection of life and access to the tree. this is why in my orginal point i said it was important to remember that Adam was physically in paradise.

this is my point the actual choice to live or die is the choice to obey Dod or not, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God and did in fact did "surely die" only the death they were thinking of was not immediate, but came about after denial of access to the tree of life. the death they did not see butwas immediate was the spiritual death by attaining the knowledge of good and evil without the ability to do only good.

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
GW your forgetting the "earnest" IS the Holy Spirit. you get the Holy Spirit by accepting the Gift of Grace...

I am not forgetting anything. You claim that by believing and having the Holy Spirit you have REDEMPTION. That is patentently false, and you continue to try to pull Eph 1:7 and 1:11 and say they are yours now when verse 1:13-14 PROVES that those things are NOT yours yet. Jesus had indeed SECURED those things for the saints, but they were not theirs yet -- only the PLEDGE/EARNEST of the redemption had been given.


Eph 1:13-14

*in whom also AFTER that ye believed,

*ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

*Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession


Why does this confuse you?

(1) Even after you believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit you do NOT have the redemption of the purchased posession!

(2) The Holy Spirit here is called the "spirit OF PROMISE" -- all you have is a promise. That is what a pledge or earnest is.

(3) A pledge or earnest is NOT the redemption itself according to Paul, but is a PROMISE that it will at some future time be granted.


Originally posted by The Messenger
and what is this "forgiveness of your sins"? also refered to as?

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses , according to the riches of his grace

Are you trying to intentionally hide the facts of Ephesians chapter one? Ephesians verses 1:7 and 1:11 are CLEARLY explained just three verses later as only being present by PROMISE and EARNEST UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSESSION

You do not have the redemption yet. You DO, however, have the pledge that such a blessed redemption of you will occur at some future time.

[Willis Deal]

p70,

It is not good to pile speculation upon speculation. Genesis records pertinent details, but is by no means an exhaustive discourse on everything that happened in the Garden of Eden. We know that it was God's habit to walk in the garden and to talk to man, but very little of this discourse is recorded. We could speculate endlessly about the content of those discussions but it is a pointless exercise. Could Adam have chosen NOT to eat of the tree of life? There is no way of knowing, the only thing we do know was that it was God's will that Adam eat since Adam had access to the tree and permission to eat. WHAT IF Adam had chosen not to eat? There is no way of knowing, would he not eat out of a death wish or through ignorance? Would God sit giggling as Adam searched vainly for the tree of life, every day growing older and weaker? Pure speculation and no basis in scripture to rely upon.

Since Adam lived for hundreds of years WITHOUT access to the tree of life there would certainly have been plenty of time for God to instruct Adam on the proper use of the tree of life, had the fall not ended Adam's access AND provided that Adam NEEDED access to the tree (which is still an unproven point and relies upon speculation and conjecture). The only things which ARE clear is that Adam lost access to the tree of life, which could have guaranteed immortality AFTER the fall, that he lost this access because of SIN, and that Adam suffered a PHYSICAL death.

Whether physical death was a reality before the fall is again based purely upon speculation and assumes facts not in evidence, and if different facts are assumed then an entirely different scenario develops. We do know that physical death is EXPLAINED by God AFTER Adam sinned and is in context with the other curses that are a direct result of Adam's sin. Should we continue to speculate? Did Adam live hundreds of years longer than the current typical human lifespan because he had ALREADY eaten from the tree of life, or was it because the earlier human bodies were far superior?

Regardless of how far you want to take this it still comes down to what the bible says, and says very clearly. Adam died a physical death as a direct result of his sin. That is undeniable and inescapable. It is also the ONLY type of death that Genesis mentions. While we can say that Adam died a 'spiritual' death nobody has yet proven that point. I can accept the concept of spiritual death and that it happened the day Adam sinned, but I'd still like to see somebody prove that position from scripture. I showed on another thread how the shedding of blood can be the remission of sins, and that God delayed judgment upon Ninevah because of her repentance, and that God shed blood to cover man's nakedness, a symbol of his sin. So it is very easy for me to see how God delayed Adam's physical death through mercy and shed the blood of animals for the remission of Adam's sin, making the reliance upon some sort of 'spiritual' death unnecessary to avoid the implication that God lied when he told Adam he would die in the day he ate the fruit.

[GW]

1. Adam was made of earthen materials (a "natural body") and therefore was by nature subject to physical decay/death even before his spiritual death happened via his sin (Gen 2:7,19; 1 Cor 15:44-49; 2 Cor 4:18).

2. The day Adam sinned God removed him from the PRESENCE of God in Eden which was the death spoken of Genesis 2:17.

3. When Adam sinned God barred him from access to the tree of life so Adam could not eat of it and live forever (bodily?; or morally ruined in terms of good and evil?).

4. The event of the fall was planned by God who created His creature subject to vanity so that God could give him the hope redemption through the heroic work of Jesus Christ (Rom 7:20-21; Eph 1:4-5).

5. The Cross event to redeem his Chosen through grace via Christ's own blood was planned out before the creation of the universe (1 Pet 1:19-20; 2 Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2-3; Rev 13:8; 1 Cor 2:7)

6. That many human beings would never be the Elect of God and therefore damned was determined before the world began (Jude 1:4; Rev 17:8; Rom 9:11-13, 18-21)

7. The salvation of the Chosen from sin unto eternal life and inheritance in heavenly, immortal bodies was determined before the world began (1 Cor 15:44-49; Titus 1:2-3; 1 Pet 1:3-5/Eph 1:11 )

God has executed his plans exactly as he purposed it before the foundation of the world. The sin of man, the death in the first earthen body, the redemption of the Chosen through Christ's sacrifice and blood, and eternal life in heavenly, spiritual bodies was all planned out before God ever created mankind. God has worked and always works all things according to the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:5,11).

[The Messenger]

quote by GW
"I am not forgetting anything. You claim that by believing and having the Holy Spirit you have REDEMPTION. That is patentently false,


scripture is clear, your are simply incorrect GW :D 2 redemptions are spoken of quite plainly. in future and present tense. redemption from the law was a present reality pre 70ad as the words of Paul attest. Paul was not under law at the time of writing his epistles



Romans 3:21-24
But NOW the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it; the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus , whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.


quote by GW
and you continue to try to pull Eph 1:7 and 1:11 and say they are yours now when verse 1:13-14 PROVES that those things are NOT yours yet. Jesus had indeed SECURED those things for the saints, but they were not theirs yet -- only the PLEDGE/EARNEST of the redemption had been given."

and it is secured THROUGH the Holy spirit! of course i "pull in" Eph 1:7 and 1:11 they go hand in hand with Eph 1:13-14!!! you HAVE to put them together! they were meant to go together you silly boy! ;) look at verses 13-14 again

Ephesians 1:13-14
In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him , were sealed WITH the promised Holy Spirit [/B], which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.


this is in direct agreement with Acts 2:38

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit .

and the forgiveness is...

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption THROUGH his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses(aka sins), according to the riches of his graceGalatians 3:13

which is why Paul also says:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us --for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree" --

the reason being:

Romans 3:20
For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.


again GW, i ask you, are you in your immortal glorified body? yes or no .

if you are not, then are'nt you also waiting on this?

the simple fact is you are waiting, just like me, just like Paul, in the same way. 60ad or 2060ad it works the same.

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
2 redemptions are spoken of quite plainly. in future and present tense.
LOL. When we compare Romans 8:14-25 to Galatians 4:1-11 are these really two different redemptions in view separated by thousands of years? Are these really two different adoptions as sons separated by thousands of years? Are these really 2 separate cryings out Abba Father for 2 different reasons separated by thousands of years??? Are these really2 different bondages which they desired to be in bondage separated by thousands of years? The sane reader would have to reject such total nonsense.

Instead, being a believer and having the Spirit was only to have an EARNEST of a yet-future redemption (Eph 1:13-14; 4:30).


Eph 1:13-14

*in whom also AFTER that ye believed,

*ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

*Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession


Why does this confuse you?

(1) Even after you believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit you do NOT have the redemption of the purchased posession!

(2) The Holy Spirit here is called the "spirit OF PROMISE" -- all you have is a promise. That is what a pledge or earnest is.

(3) A pledge or earnest is NOT the redemption itself according to Paul, but is a PROMISE that it will at some future time be granted.


The Messenger's Error - Exposed
You ignore that in every case Paul is preaching to people who are STILL IN BONDAGE TO THE LAW! You try to act as if they are not, but they are. You do it in Galatians, but we KNOW they were still in bondage to the Law (Gal 4:1-5:5). You did recently by citing Col 1:14 as if they weren't a people STEEPED IN THE LAW (Col 2:16-21). They were a people who were not yet acting upon New Covenant faith. Paul is urging them to leave that shadow practice behind (Col 2:16-21; Gal 4:1-5:5). Paul was NOT preaching to New Covenant Christians, but rather was speaking to people STEEPED in the Law of Moses for righteousness.

Originally posted by The Messenger
the simple fact is you are waiting, just like me, just like Paul, in the same way. 60ad or 2060ad it works the same.

LOL. No I'm not. Nor does it work the same -- there is no Law of Moses in practice anywhere on the planet, nor has there been since AD 70. Paul was always preaching, not to New Covenant Christians, but to Old Covenant practicing jews who were steeped in the Law and kept returning to it. This is totally different from things after AD70 when the Law was removed. I am a manifested son of God. You are not (Romans 8:19). I am a part of a fully redeemed purchased possession! You are not (Eph 1:13-14). I am not groaning ABBA FATHER to get out of bondage, waiting for adoption. You are (Romans 8:15-19). I have the salvation of Hebrews 9:28 and 1 Peter 1:3-5. You do not.

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW
LOL. When we compare Romans 8:14-25 to Galatians 4:1-11 are these really two different redemptions in view separated by thousands of years? Are these really two different adoptions as sons separated by thousands of years? Are these really 2 separate cryings out Abba Father for 2 different reasons separated by thousands of years??? Are these really2 different bondages which they desired to be in bondage separated by thousands of years? The sane reader would have to reject such total nonsense.

Instead, being a believer and having the Spirit was only to have an EARNEST of a yet-future redemption (Eph 1:13-14; 4:30).


reality you deny proves me right, because unless your in your glorified, immortal REDEEMED body NOW, YOU yourself are waiting on this redemption too! LOL!!!

Originally posted by GW [/i
The Messenger's Error - Exposed
You ignore that in every case Paul is preaching to people who are STILL IN BONDAGE TO THE LAW! You try to act as if they are not, but they are. You do it in Galatians, but we KNOW they were still in bondage to the Law (Gal 4:1-5:5). You did recently by citing Col 1:14 as if they weren't a people STEEPED IN THE LAW (Col 2:16-21). They were a people who were not yet acting upon New Covenant faith. Paul is urging them to leave that shadow practice behind (Col 2:16-21; Gal 4:1-5:5). Paul was NOT preaching to New Covenant Christians, but rather was speaking to people STEEPED in the Law of Moses for righteousness.

GW's saddam syndrome exposed :D
your missing the fact Paul had been ALREADY REDEEMED from the law, this is a seperate redemption he says so in his own words the redemption he waits on is the redemption of the BODY

Romans 3:23-25
since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they ARE(not "will be") justified by his grace as a gift, [I]through the REDEMPTION which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood , to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; "



GW you spent lot of time saying the new covenant was not until 70ad, you also spent alot of time saying Paul and the apostles observed the law...now you say the above quote which is more than a small contradiction of your earlier statements...


[i]Originally posted by GW [/i
This is totally different from things after AD70 when the Law was removed. I am a manifested son of God. You are not (Romans 8:19). I am a part of a fully redeemed purchased possession! You are not (Eph 1:13-14). I am not groaning ABBA FATHER to get out of bondage, waiting for adoption. You are (Romans 8:15-19). I have the salvation of Hebrews 9:28 and 1 Peter 1:3-5. You do not . [/B]


so GW, are you in fact saying your in your immortal glorified body NOW? simple yes or no please.

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
reality you deny proves me right, because unless your in your glorified, immortal REDEEMED body NOW, YOU yourself are waiting on this redemption too! LOL!

Wrong. Eternal life was granted to the whole body of the saints at AD 70, both the dead and the living. All were changed positionally into redeemed sons of God. The dead, however, were raised out of Hades in the blink of an eye at AD 70 and into Heaven. The living now never experience biblical death as did the O.T. saints up to AD 70.


Originally posted by The Messenger
you're missing the fact Paul had been ALREADY REDEEMED from the law, this is a separate redemption he says so in his own words the redemption he waits on is the redemption of the BODY
Ugh. Romans 8:14-25 is parallel with Gal 4:1-11. No one was redeemed from the Law who was keeping it for righteousness sake. Paul's audiences were mostly jewish followers of Jesus who still believed righteousness came via the Mosaic system.

Romans 3:30, 5:19, 8:19-25, 11:26; 13:11-12; 15:16 are all the future tense. They had not been saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9-10), which is why you don't yet go to heaven in your system and still have it abiding upon you. Paul's Messianic Jewish audiences were either IN the Mosaic system for righteousness when he was preaching to them or they were going BACK to the Mosaic system for righteousness when he was preaching to them.


Originally posted by The Messenger
GW you spent lot of time saying the new covenant was not until 70ad, you also spent alot of time saying Paul and the apostles observed the law...now you say the above quote which is more than a small contradiction of your earlier statements...
No. The issue for the 1st century jew was whether one considered salvation to come VIA the Mosaic Law system or not. Most of Paul's audiences believed they were saved by Moses and his system! That was a life and soul-damning error which brought millions to perish at AD 66-70 and for eternity. Properly understood, the Mosaic practices could be done so long as one was doing them as Jesus understood them (or as David understood the Law System -- Rom 4:4-8). But the minute a jew thought salvation came VIA adherence to the Laws they were not in grace nor faith -- for the Law practice was not of faith (Rom 4:14; Gal 3:12;) and could not bring justification (Rom 3:28; Gal 2:15-16). Paul and James and Peter and the jewish early Church followed the Law as Jesus taught them up until AD 66 when the jews fled Jerusalem. Jesus did not keep the Mosaic Law for righteousness and neither did Paul, Peter, or James (although Peter and James were unclear on some of the specifics of that practice, themselves being still entangled for at least a decade or two after the resurrection -- Gal 2:11-14).




Originally posted by The Messenger
So GW, are you in fact saying your in your immortal glorified body NOW? simple yes or no please.
The entire BODY was redeemed at AD 70. That "BODY" (singluar) that was redeemed was the purchased posession, the Church (Eph 1:13-14; Acts 20:28).

While eternal life was fully granted to the enitire Church at AD 70 (no more pledge or earnest), the dead were raised out of Hades and into Heaven. The living were NOT "raised" for they were not dead. They were not to precede the dead (1 Thess 4:15-17). The change for the living was the change from the POSITION the saints had in the O.T. to the POSITION the saints have in the N.T. system:


O.T. SYSTEM - not redeemed. not saved. not sons of God. kept apart from God's Presence. entangled in the law curses. no eternal life. afterlife in Hades. no access to Heaven

--INSERT THE CHANGE...--

N.T. SYSTEM -- the saints are fully redeemed (no earnest, no groaning). the saints are saved. saints are the sons of God. saints are always in God's Presence. no law curse. full eternal life. no Hadean afterlife for the saints. full access to Heaven. Gen 12:1-3 is fulfilled in the Church etc. etc.


You see, for you, Christ has done nothing for a single dead saint going back to Adam. Whether one was Adam or whether one was King David or whether one was Paul or whether one is The Messenger, the afterlife is the same -- NO HEAVENLY BLISS WITH GOD. You even believe that your individual sentience and consciousness is absent at physical death in some way that you believe Abraham's was was thousands of years ago. Therefore Christ has done not a single thing for the dead. People only live on earth for a few years. They spend massive amounts of time in the afterlife (thousands of years). So Christ has done nothing for the departed ones in your system -- nothing for Moses, Elisha, David, Mary, Joseph, Augustine, etc. Hades still reigns (1 Cor 15:55-56; Rev 20:12-15).

How hopeless and ineffectual was Christ's 1st Advent for all departed saints (in your system). How little comfort to know our loved ones have not gone on to a better existence by their departure -- in fact, they are not sentient nor conscious of anyone or thing.

The preterist system, by sharp contrast, is one of total victory for the living and the dead.

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW
Wrong. Eternal life was granted to the whole body of the saints at AD 70, both the dead and the living. All were changed positionally into redeemed sons of God. The dead, however, were raised out of Hades in the blink of an eye at AD 70 and into Heaven. The living now never experience biblical death as did the O.T. saints up to AD 70.


LOL!! i so love your semantics games GW!! dead is dead ,when you body dies it is...dead, until the resurrection. this is why i keep asking you if you have come into your immortal glorified body yet. you keep dodging it with evasive answers that seem to indicate you think you have...but stop short. well have you? YES OR NO.

as far as when eternal life was grantedthis occurs during mortal life, when the choice is made to believe in Christ:

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.


Originally posted by GW
Ugh. Romans 8:14-25 is parallel with Gal 4:1-11. No one was redeemed from the Law who was keeping it for righteousness sake. Paul's audiences were mostly jewish followers of Jesus who still believed righteousness came via the Mosaic system.

so GW what system were the ones like Paul and the rest of the believers in that were not under law? in one set of arguments you say "paul was under law until ad70" in another you say they were not, please make up your mind...i agree no one that went back to the OT system were justified, but the ones that stayed in the NT system were :D

Originally posted by GW
Romans 3:30, 5:19, 8:19-25, 11:26; 13:11-12; 15:16 are all the future tense. They had not been saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9-10), which is why you don't yet go to heaven in your system and still have it abiding upon you. Paul's Messianic Jewish audiences were either IN the Mosaic system for righteousness when he was preaching to them or they were going BACK to the Mosaic system for righteousness when he was preaching to them.

let's look at some present/past tense ones! :D

Romans 3:24
they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

Colossians 1:13-15
He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption , the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

GW, thx for those extra veres showing the present reality of one redemption and the future redemption of another...:D
it is also demonstrative of the fact the redemption from sin is required to get the Holy Spirit, which gets us the physical redemption from death! :)



Originally posted by GW
No. The issue for the 1st century jew was whether one considered salvation to come VIA the Mosaic Law system or not. Most of Paul's audiences believed they were saved by Moses and his system!

the "or not" was the New Covenant system already in place pre 70ad. correct? otherwise there was still only one system and no other system for them to go to in the first place...



Originally posted by GW
The entire BODY was redeemed at AD 70. That "BODY" (singluar) that was redeemed was the purchased posession, the Church (Eph 1:13-14; Acts 20:28).

you mean given immortal glorified bodies? who passed the faith on then? or are you referring the redemption from sin, which was pre 70ad?


Originally posted by GW
You see, for you, Christ has done nothing for a single dead saint going back to Adam. Whether one was Adam or whether one was King David or whether one was Paul or whether one is The Messenger, the afterlife is the same -- NO HEAVENLY BLISS WITH GOD.

actually since my existance will be spiritual since my body is dead but not my spirit, my existance will be with Christ i will still be in Him, and he in me just as now...just as before i was born. it is the same for OT persons, even people that died in the flood, those that accepted the gospel were no longer in sheol, but in Christ.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.



Originally posted by GW
You even believe that your individual sentience and consciousness is absent at physical death in some way that you believe Abraham's was was thousands of years ago. Therefore Christ has done not a single thing for the dead.

i remain alive in the spirit, in Christ who is in me until the resurrection i am manifested to Him and He to me by and through the spirit.

Romans 8:9-11
But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit , if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you , although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your MORTAL BODIES ALSO through his Spirit which dwells in you.

i know you try you best to edit this out GW, but here is where you blunder:

Christ's mortal body died(hence the term "mortal" it was raised and glorified his spirit did not die hence the term "ALSO" in regards to Christ being raised from the dead...hence the term "mortal bodies" in regards His and our Resurrections being compared. your weak arguments have never refuted this, ot only tried to hide from it.



Originally posted by GW
People only live on earth for a few years. They spend massive amounts of time in the afterlife (thousands of years). So Christ has done nothing for the departed ones in your system -- nothing for Moses, Elisha, David, Mary, Joseph, Augustine, etc. Hades still reigns (1 Cor 15:55-56; Rev 20:12-15).

i just covered this, only those dead that did not accept the gospel whne Christ preached it to them the 3 days he was dead are waiting the resuurection of judgment.


Originally posted by GW
The preterist system, by sharp contrast, is one of total victory for the living and the dead.

actually it is one of total nonsense and contradiction, it seems a bit schichzophrenic in it's muddled attempt to edit most of the bible in that meanings of many scriptures seem to change from debate to debate. and definitions of words are purposfully distorted.

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
dead is dead ,when you body dies it is...dead, until the resurrection. this is why i keep asking you if you have come into your immortal glorified body yet. you keep dodging it with evasive answers that seem to indicate you think you have...but stop short.
The Dead are not gone, they are in Hades until resurrection.

All saints received eternal life at AD 70. For the dead they were raised out of Hades. The living were not to precede the dead, but must follow after. Those living on earth after AD 70 never taste of Hades and death. They are never bodiless, but will instantly receive their heavenly body at passing from earth (2 Cor 5:1-2).


Originally posted by The Messenger
as far as when eternal life was grantedthis occurs during mortal life, when the choice is made to believe in Christ
LOL. If you had eternal life you'd go to heaven after passing from earth.


Originally posted by The Messenger
...i agree no one that went back to the OT system were justified, but the ones that stayed in the NT system were

The fact that those 1st century believers could go back to the Law of Moses proves the preterist view. No one after AD 70 can go back to the Law of Moses -- there is no system of the Law of Moses anywhere on the planet since AD 70..

Romans 3:24 is to people still practicing a Law System.

Eph 1:7 is interpreted by Eph 1:13-14.

Col 1:13-15 is also preached to a people steeped in the Law of Moses for righteousness (Col 2:16-22).

Heb 9:28 states their salvation had not come, for Christ was still purifying the Heavenly temple with his blood for the saints and had not yet returned back out of the true Holy of Holies (Heb 9:23-28). Peter also says that their salvation was yet future (1 Peter 1:3-5).


Originally posted by The Messenger
actually since my existance will be spiritual since my body is dead but not my spirit, my existance will be with Christ i will still be in Him, and he in me just as now...just as before i was born. it is the same for OT persons, even people that died in the flood, those that accepted the gospel were no longer in sheol, but in Christ.

The dead are in Hades. They sleep there in Christ (just like you and I are in Christ) and await Hades/Sheol to be destroyed just like in Rev 20:12-15 and 1 Cor 15:55-56.


Originally posted by The Messenger
i know you try you best to edit this out GW, but here is where you blunder:

Christ's mortal body died(hence the term "mortal" it was raised and glorified his spirit did not die hence the term "ALSO" in regards to Christ being raised from the dead...hence the term "mortal bodies" in regards His and our Resurrections being compared. your weak arguments have never refuted this, ot only tried to hide from it.

To apply such a view fails to grasp Paul's argument that we still have living bodies. They are dead "positionally, in God's eyes" but we live in them for between 70-80 years upon this earth. AND, Paul teaches that they have a sin-disposition in them that must be "mortified" by one's INNER MAN and the Holy Spirit's quickening work.

Now if you insist that your earthly body is dead, then are you currently a disembodied being? AND, how are you then MORTIFYING THE DEEDS OF YOUR FUTURE FLESH RESURRECTION BODY as commanded in Romans 8:12-13? For Romans 8:12-13 in my view is the same body of Romans 8:10. Do you agree? If not, then you are forced into the absurdity that Romans 8:12-13 is a command for us to mortify the evil deeds of our FUTURE resurrection flesh.

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW
The Dead are not gone, they are in Hades until resurrection.

All saints received eternal life at AD 70. For the dead they were raised out of Hades. The living were not to precede the dead, but must follow after. Those living on earth after AD 70 never taste of Hades and death. They are never bodiless, but will instantly receive their heavenly body at passing from earth (2 Cor 5:1-2).

actually GW, the OT saints that heard the gospel in sheol and believed were part (in fact most of) THE DEAD "in Christ"

1 Peter 4:6
For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.


Originally posted by GW
LOL. If you had eternal life you'd go to heaven after passing from earth.
he fact that those 1st century believers could go back to the Law of Moses proves the preterist view. No one after AD 70 can go back to the Law of Moses -- there is no system of the Law of Moses anywhere on the planet since AD 70.

the samaratins to this day practice the mosaic system of sacrifice. i saw a picture of sacrifices bieng made. also as i pointed out earlier the law is still in existance, it is there for anyone who is not under Grace, it determines judgement.

spiritually i am connected to heaven now, i am IN Christ, He is IN me this does not change when i die.



Originally posted by GW
Romans 3:24 is to people still practicing a Law System.
Eph 1:7 is interpreted by Eph 1:13-14.

Col 1:13-15 is also preached to a people steeped in the Law of Moses for righteousness (Col 2:16-22).

Heb 9:28 states their salvation had not come, for Christ was still purifying the Heavenly temple with his blood for the saints and had not yet returned back out of the true Holy of Holies (Heb 9:23-28). Peter also says that their salvation was yet future (1 Peter 1:3-5). The dead are in Hades. They sleep there in Christ (just like you and I are in Christ) and await Hades/Sheol to be destroyed just like in Rev 20:12-15 and 1 Cor 15:55-56.

GW, you miss the point that there was already in place an alternate system for them to be in, that brought them outside of the mosaic system(redeemd from law) which in fact was the new covenant established by christ on the cross by and through His blood, and this renders the rest of your points on this subject moot :D your also forgetting that the dead that accepted Christ when he preached in sheol were also "made alive in the spirit"...they too were "in Christ" and not in sheol. and Hebrews has the New Covenant being in place already, i posted the scripture, scroll up.


Originally posted by GW
To apply such a view fails to grasp Paul's argument that we still have living bodies. They are dead "positionally, in God's eyes" but we live in them for between 70-80 years upon this earth. AND, Paul teaches that they have a sin-disposition in them that must be "mortified" by one's INNER MAN and the Holy Spirit's quickening work.

actually it does a better job of explaining why we are still in living bodies after being redeemed from law! that is why most of my arguments take scripture as what it simply says, and you spend paragraph after paragraph of "interpretation" in a vain attepmt to change their obvious meaning.

a prime example is my assertion that "redemption" which Paul defines as "forgiveness of sins" was available pre70 ad because the cross made this a reality, it was in fact the very purpose for it.

Originally posted by GW
Now if you insist that your earthly body is dead, then are you currently a disembodied being? AND, how are you then MORTIFYING THE DEEDS OF YOUR FUTURE FLESH RESURRECTION BODY as commanded in Romans 8:12-13? For Romans 8:12-13 in my view is the same body of Romans 8:10. Do you agree? If not, then you are forced into the absurdity that Romans 8:12-13 is a command for us to mortify the evil deeds of our FUTURE resurrection flesh.


my earthly body is doomed to die, it is a mortal body like yours, and Paul's, and Adam's that will be redeemed ala Romans 8:10-11,23. Christ's mortal body was raised and made immortal, Romans 8:11 says "mortal body" will be "ALSO" i am putting a stop to my flesh's desire to sin by being led by the spirit instead of the flesh. this is made possible by my spirit's redemption from sin that i gain by Grace through faith, which grants me the Holy Spirit and saves me for bodily redemption when i die...just like the bible simply says.

the Salvation process is the exact opposite of the cursing process, Adam & Eve sinned, this sin got them banished which brought about mortal death by denial of access to the tree of life. Grace came on the cross and removed the penalty of sin, which after mortal death and resurrection grants access to the tree of life again.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God . '

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
actually GW, the OT saints that heard the gospel in sheol and believed were part (in fact most of) THE DEAD "in Christ"
Hades/Sheol is not done away with until Revelation 20. Also, 1 Cor 15:55-56 also shows that Hades is what is triumphed over for the saints at the time of resurrection of the dead. The saints are still bound by Hades.

LOL. The Samaritans don't keep the Law of Moses. Hehehehe. Good one. Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses required a Temple and legitimate Levitical priests just in order to observe the Law.


Originally posted by The Messenger
your also forgetting that the dead that accepted Christ when he preached in sheol were also "made alive in the spirit"...they too were "in Christ" and not in sheol.
LOL. Jesus didn't preach in sheol for 3 days. Also, what do you propose those saints looked like? Did they have ears? Did they ask Jesus questions? Did they look for miracles? How many in Sheol/Hades rejected Christ? Why? No, friend, Hades isn't taken away from the saints until 1 Cor 15:55-56 just as Paul wrote.



Are you mortifying the flesh of your future resurrection body according to Romans 8:10-13?

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW
Hades/Sheol is not done away with until Revelation 20. Also, 1 Cor 15:55-56 also shows that Hades is what is triumphed over for the saints at the time of resurrection of the dead. The saints are still bound by Hades.


are you talking about the orginal concept of sheol, or the hellenized concept?

Originally posted by GW
LOL. The Samaritans don't keep the Law of Moses. Hehehehe. Good one. Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses required a Temple and legitimate Levitical priests just in order to observe the Law.

well friend, if you think about it no one does/did, but they tried and still try...also you apparantly have no clue as to when and why synagogue worship started, here is a hint, it is mentioned plenty in the bible...


Originally posted by GW
LOL. Jesus didn't preach in sheol for 3 days . Also, what do you propose those saints looked like? Did they have ears? Did they ask Jesus questions? Did they look for miracles? How many in Sheol/Hades rejected Christ? Why? No, friend, Hades isn't taken away from the saints until 1 Cor 15:55-56 just as Paul wrote.


1 Peter 4:6
For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey , when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

nuff said..


Originally posted by GW
Are you mortifying the flesh of your future resurrection body according to Romans 8:10-13?

hehe your still trying to mangle that scripture and still doing a terrible job of it. :D

BTW, are you going to give the simple yes or no answer to the question "GW are you in your immortal glorified body yet?" yes or no is all im asking for.

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
are you talking about the orginal concept of sheol, or the hellenized concept?

I'm talking about the Revelation 20 and 1 Cor 15:55-56 concept.


Originally posted by The Messenger
well friend, if you think about it no one does/did, but they tried and still try...also you apparantly have no clue as to when and why synagogue worship started, here is a hint, it is mentioned plenty in the bible...
You do not understand what the Law of Moses is. It is a code, a tabernacle, and a priesthood to carry out detailed, specific acts for all covenanted sons of Abraham that must be followed to a tee. None of those things exist today and the Law is NOT being observed and hasn't been since AD 70. Rabbis call AD 70 the "end of biblical judaism" for a reason. Any suggestion of yours that people still follow the Law of Moses today is spoken out of ignorance.

Next, Jesus did not preach to people in hades after the crucifixion.

Next, the discussion we have had on Romans 8 has only shown to me how dishonest you are being with Holy scripture. Saying that Romans 8:14-25 is a different thing from Gal 4:1-11 simply cannot be and would not be maintained by any sane expositor. They are the same thing spoken of in identical terms. You sneak thousands of years into the mix (Paul does not) and then say they speak of different redemptions (Paul does not). There is just no way to continue any conversation with you -- there is no biblical justification for your treatment of Gal 4:1-11 and 8:14-25 being different in referent and separated by thousands of years. It's just not there. And, this is a typical discussion with you. Your futurism forces you to create two of everthing separated by thousands of years and pointing to different referents. You'll do anything other than let the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

Finally, I have eternal life. You are still waiting for it (Titus 1:2). Of course you will say you are not because there will claim to have eternal life and then get a second eternal life that you will have granted at the Parousia. You always take a single concept and make two out of it and assign it to separate things, one for you now and one for you thousands of years away.

This conversation is about to end soon (and I don't mean "soon" as you mean soon -- i.e., thousands of years). I mean it the way the N.T. writers mean it when they used it.

Jesus Christ is here. He is not coming back in your lifetime as you have vainly imagined. He came back in his generation as he also promised the apostles and as they all taught. You will live to be an old man an die a normal death. We are not in the last days. We are living BEYOND THE ENDTIMES.

GW

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW
I'm talking about the Revelation 20 and 1 Cor 15:55-56 concept.

that does not answer the question.


Originally posted by GW
You do not understand what the Law of Moses is. It is a code, a tabernacle, and a priesthood to carry out detailed, specific acts for all covenanted sons of Abraham that must be followed to a tee. None of those things exist today and the Law is NOT being observed and hasn't been since AD 70. Rabbis call AD 70 the "end of biblical judaism" for a reason. Any suggestion of yours that people still follow the Law of Moses today is spoken out of ignorance.

Next, Jesus did not preach to people in hades after the crucifixion.

i have just shown you scripture that says in plain words he did just that...here it is again :)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead , that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey , when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

let us review...

GW says:"Jesus did not preach to people in hades after the crucifixion"

the bible says: "he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey"


also the Law is still around for the purpose of judgment, if a person is not under grace, they are liable to judgment under the Law.


Originally posted by GW
Next, the discussion we have had on Romans 8 has only shown to me how dishonest you are being with Holy scripture. Saying that Romans 8:14-25 is a different thing from Gal 4:1-11 simply cannot be and would not be maintained by any sane expositor. They are the same thing spoken of in identical terms. You sneak thousands of years into the mix (Paul does not) and then say they speak of different redemptions (Paul does not). There is just no way to continue any conversation with you -- there is no biblical justification for your treatment of Gal 4:1-11 and 8:14-25 being different in referent and separated by thousands of years. It's just not there. And, this is a typical discussion with you. Your futurism forces you to create two of everthing separated by thousands of years and pointing to different referents. You'll do anything other than let the scriptures interpret the scriptures.

GW most scripture means what it simply says, taking one part of scripture similar to another except a detail or two and then saying the are the "same" is a poor excuse to tear verses out of the bible. if it helps you to understand think of them as 2 halves of a single redemption, but they way they work are just as i say, for that is what the bible plainly says. you cannot get around the tense issue.

the salvation process is the exact undoing of the cursing process in Genesis, you disdain for Christ taking "2000" years as taking too long, but you seem to forget it took immeasurably LONGER than 2000 years to have the curse of sin removed that has been around since the time of Adam.


Originally posted by GW
Finally, I have eternal life. You are still waiting for it (Titus 1:2). Of course you will say you are not because there will claim to have eternal life and then get a second eternal life that you will have granted at the Parousia. You always take a single concept and make two out of it and assign it to separate things, one for you now and one for you thousands of years away.

i have eternal life, but i am not in my immotal glorified state yet, i am sure you are not either. do an experiment GW, if you can jump off the sears tower crunch on the ground with the full force gravity has to bear, immediatly get up unhurt and say to me "see i told ya" then i will become a preterist! :D until thing i will thing of you as i do myself, a person with spiritual redemption, waiting on the physical redemption...just like the bible says.

Originally posted by GW
This conversation is about to end soon (and I don't mean "soon" as you mean soon -- i.e., thousands of years). I mean it the way the N.T. writers mean it when they used it.

why GW? aint you having as much fun as i am? :D


[QUOTE]Originally posted by GW
Jesus Christ is here. He is not coming back in your lifetime as you have vainly imagined. He came back in his generation as he also promised the apostles and as they all taught. You will live to be an old man an die a normal death. We are not in the last days. We are living BEYOND THE ENDTIMES.

I agree Yeshua is here, he has been "spiritually" through the Holy Spirit since 30ad(pentecost) no secret 70ad "spiritual" coming was needed for this :)

as far as how long i will live, i could very well be killed for my faith, the world still hates us, still kills us, still persecutes us just as in the beginning of the Church. this should not be happening if he came back in 70ad according to Revelation 21...there is still plenty of death, and sorrow, and crying, pain...

also one more small detail, which will also bring us back on topic...do you remember what Genesis 3 said? i will not say anything scripture speaks for itself.

Genesis 3:17-19
And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."


Romans 8:21-23
because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves , who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

:D

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
that does not answer the question.
Your question is not biblical to begin with.

Hades is still in power over the saints if one is a futurist:

And thus is brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. "Where of thee O Death is the sting? Where of thee O HADES is the victory? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is THE LAW" -- 1 Cor 15:55-56



Originally posted by The Messenger
i have just shown you scripture that says in plain words he did just that...here it is again

1 Peter 4:6

1 Peter 3:18-20

That doesn't say Jesus preached in Hades. Peter is just saying what Paul also had said:

1 Cor 10:1-2,3,9
all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea...And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ...Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents

Peter is pointing out that Christ was there preaching with Noah's family to the disobedient while the Ark was being prepared and only 8 were saved by water -- Peter compares that to the salvation through water baptism. Paul taught that this was true also with Moses (1 Cor 10; Heb 11:26) and also with Father Abraham (Gal 3:8). Compare:

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


Originally posted by The Messenger
also the Law is still around for the purpose of judgment, if a person is not under grace, they are liable to judgment under the Law.
You do not seem to have a grasp on the Old Covenant and how it worked. The Old Covenant Laws ALL had to be obeyed note for note by God's people. The curses and blessings of the Law are entirely dependent on the obedience of its subjects to the code. The judgments of the Law are what happened to Israel when the Babylonians destroyed them (read Lamentations). The judgments of the Law are what happened when the Romans destroyed them. Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 are the judgments of the Law. The Law of Moses is neither in observance nor in active duty anywhere on the planet nor has it been since AD 70. We know from Exodus 34:22-24 that the Law is not in active duty -- Israel was attacked during its Yom Kippur just this year as it was also in 1967. So also was Israel attacked during Pentecost in AD 70. While the Law USED to be kept by Jehovah towards the Jews, it no longer serves actively since it has been removed to make way for the second Covenant (Heb 10:9).

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
taking one part of scripture similar to another except a detail or two and then saying the are the "same" is a poor excuse to tear verses out of the bible. if it helps you to understand think of them as 2 halves of a single redemption, but they way they work are just as i say, for that is what the bible plainly says.

They are EXACTLY the same. THEY ARE PARALLEL PASSAGES and speak of the one and the same exact "bondage" (cf. Gal 4:3,7,10 to Rom 8:15,21) and the same exact "adoption and redemption" (cf. Gal 4:5 to Rom 8:23 and Gal) unto the same exact standing as "sons/children of God" (cf. Gal 4:5-7 to Rom 8:14,16-17,9,21) by crying out the exact same words "ABBA, FATHER!" by the same "groaning Spirit" (cf. Gal 4:6 to Rom 8:15, 22, 26). How in the world did you come up with two different fulfillments of this separated by thousands of years??? They are the same exact thing. No serious expositor of the scriptures can take our twisting seriously on this one.

Originally posted by The Messenger
you cannot get around the tense issue.

The so-called "tense issue" is in your head, brother. It is a unicorn you have created in your head to prop up your false futurist theory. We recognize that Paul's preaching was CONDITIONAL upon their coming out from under Torah observance for righteousness and Christ being in them -- this had not happened to the Galatians yet. When Paul says "God sent forth his Son made of a woman to redeem them that were under the Law that we MIGHT receive the adoption..." we cannot ignore the conditional "MIGHT," and we also cannot ignore that they were still fully entangled in the Law and therefore not yet redeemed from it as Paul also explicitly says (Gal 3:3, 4:9-11, 5:1; Col 2:16-21). You keep wanting to say that Paul was declaring that the Galatians had the redemption and adoption. That is 100% wrong. The churches Paul preached to were followers of Jesus who still had not received the adoption so long as they remained in the grips of the Law of Moses which was then still a living, active covenant (Gal 4:24-25) that could be observed and in fact was observed for righteousness, keeping them cursed, without grace and bewitched (Gal 3:1; 5:4; Gal 2:4). You say the Galatians already WERE redeemed: Paul says they were most certainly NOT:


Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


They did not have the redemption yet. Christ had NOT been formed in them yet. You do NOT have a fulfilled redemption in Gal 4:1-5:5 as you are trying to say! This is the explanation of your so-called "tenses" argument.


Only ONE Bondage in Romans 8 and Galatians -- The Law of Moses

Falsely, you make the "bondage" spoken about in Romans 8:15, 21 something DIFFERENT than what it means in Galatians 2:4, 4:9, 4:24, and 5:1. This is fully untenable! It is futurist twisting at its worst. Wake up, brother and admit you got it wrong. Compare the following to see they ALL speak of the same bondage to the Law of Moses:


Gal 4:9
now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again TO BE IN BONDAGE?

Gal 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty...and be not entangled again with the yoke OF BONDAGE.

Romans 8:15,17
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear...IF (conditional) so be that we suffer with him

Gal 4:24-25
these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to BONDAGE, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS, and is in bondage with her children.

Romans 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty (Gal 2:4, 5:1, 5:13

2 Peter 2:19-20
While they [Judaizers] promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world...they are again entangled in it and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.



Christ had not yet been formed in them (Gal 4:19) and this settles the so-called "tense issue." You say the Galatians had been redeemed. Paul says they had NOT. They were in bondage and were not redeemed out from under the Law. It was YET FUTURE for them.


Originally posted by The Messenger
i have eternal life, but i am not in my immotal glorified state yet
If you had eternal life then you would be in Heaven immediately at your passing as I will be. Since you are not then you do not yet have eternal life.


Originally posted by The Messenger
I agree Yeshua is here, he has been "spiritually" through the Holy Spirit since 30ad(pentecost) no secret 70ad "spiritual" coming was needed for this

Jesus can be a Spirit in your system in an handful of some tongues-speaking jews at AD 30 but he cannot return in the glory of Yahweh (John 17:5;Matt 16:27) at AD 70 when the entire Old Covenant economy and tribes went up in smoke? Come on. Read Matt 21:40-45 to see that God came at AD 70.

Originally posted by The Messenger
as far as how long i will live, i could very well be killed for my faith, the world still hates us, still kills us, still persecutes us just as in the beginning of the Church.

LOL. The entire Western Hemisphere of the globe and Europe lacks any persecution of the Christian faith. AND, the Church is expanding in Asia at this time and reports are good that China may even bow to the gospel of the Kingdom in the next century or two.


FINALLY: ROMANS 8:21-23

Romans 8:21-23
because the creation itself shall also be delivered from the BONDAGE (Rom 8:15, Gal 2:4, 4:9, 5:1; 2 Pet 2:9)

of CORRUPTION (2 Peter 2:9; 2 Pet 1:4)

into the glorious LIBERTY (Gal 2:4, 5:1, 5:13; 1Cor 8:9;

of the CHILDREN OF GOD (Rom 8:14; Gal 3:26, 4:6; Rom 9:8).


For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our BODY (Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30; Luke 21:26).

[The Messenger]

real weak GW,

:D

are you in your immortal glorified body or not? this seems a real simple question to answer.


yes or no please. you either are, or you are not.

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
real weak

My last post was the death knell to your view on Romans 8. It was a pleasure to take the time and compare the Galatians and Romans 8 passages side by side to show how vacuous this silly notion is that they speak of two different things with two different referents separated by thousands of years.

Quite simply, the notion that Galatians and Romans 8 speak of two different "redemptions," two different "bondages," two different "manifestations of the sons of God", two different "groanings of the Holy Spirit"/outcires of "Abba Father" for two different purposes and outcomes IS ROLL ON THE FLOOR LAUGH OUT LOUD FUNNY.

Eat humble pie, brother. The longer you continue in this error the more painful the side-by-side comparison of Romans 8:14-25 and Galatians is going to get for you.

God bless,
GW

[GW]

P.S., The Messenger,

I am the living, not the dead.

Furthermore, I have eternal life. I have "the change." Only physically dead persons are raised at the last trump. The living cannot and did not precede them.

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW


My last post was the death blow to your view on Romans 8. It was a pleasure to take the time and compare the Galatians and Romans 8 passages side by side to show how vacuous your silly notion is that they speak of two different things with two different referents separated by thousands of years.

Quite simply, the notion that Galatians and Romans 8 speak of two different "redemptions," two different "bondages," two different "manifestations of the sons of God", two different "groanings of the Holy Spirit"/outcires of "Abba Father" for two different purposes and outcomes IS ROLL ON THE FLOOR LAUGH OUT LOUD FUNNY.

Eat humble pie, brother. The longer you continue in this error the more painful the side-by-side comparison of Romans 8:14-25 and Galatians is going to get for you.

God bless,
GW

actually you did not compare the actual scriptures "side to side" i did that, you compared your "interpretations"

and since you seem to indicate that you are not in your immortal glorified form yet, and you also said you have to die for this to occur.

GW you yourself are physical proof i am right! :D

are you redeemed from the Law? YES just like Paul was in his epistles. the redemption made available bought this. this redemtion occurs during physical life on earth.


are you redeemed from death YET? NO for the simple reason you have not died yet! you do not have eternal life yet but only the promise of it, just like Paul and every other pre70ad believer and you will not get it until after you die. :D your own mortality proves you wrong...

so when Paul says this:

Romans 3:23-25
since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift , through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith.[/ B] This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins"

Ephesians 1:6-8
to the praise of his glorious grace which [B]he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us.

scripture means what it exactly says...all past tense concerning this redemption. this is the redemption you have now GW, the same redemption Paul had then, the redemption i have now.

the body you have now is going to die. your not immortal, your not glorified, your spirit though redeemed is still in cursed mortal flesh that is doomed to death. this bodily redemption you do not have yet, you have to die first.


1 Corinthians 15:36
You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

that is why it's called a "resurrection" what is dead is raised to live AGAIN...

i see after looking at your "PS" your playing your usual semantics games...hinting at one thing then another. never really giving a straight answer.

so i am asking you again GW are you in a mortal body or your immortal body? your in one or the other. which is it?

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
actually you did not compare the actual scriptures "side to side" i did that, you compared your "interpretations"

I put Romans 8:14-23 right up next to Galatians to show that they spoke of the exact same thing, not two different things with different referents separated by thousands of years.


Originally posted by The Messenger
you seem to indicate that you are not in your immortal glorified form yet, and you also said you have to die for this to occur.
GW you yourself are physical proof i am right!

Wrong again. That is a straw man argument. The bible says that at the time of the resurrection of the dead ONLY THE DEAD ARE RAISED (1 Thess 4:15-16). The living did not and cannot precede the dead (1 Thess 4:15-16). The entire Church received eternal life (the change), but only the dead are raised immortal since all MUST shed the earthly body to get clothed with the Heavenly, immortal, spiritual body (1 Cor 15:36-38; 2 Cor 5:1-2). It is appointed to every man to die once. I have the eternal life that was promised to the Church, both the living and the dead in Christ; but only the dead ever experience immortal, heavenly, spiritual bodies. (1 Cor 15:36-38; 2 Cor 5:1-2).


Originally posted by The Messenger
are you redeemed from the Law? YES just like Paul was in his epistles. the redemption made available bought this.

No. No one after AD 70 has been redeemed from the Law of Moses in that you and I nor anyone has ever been entangled in it -- no one since AD 70, that is. The state of mankind has returned back to the way it was PRIOR to the Mosaic Law Age which was a "parenthesis" in history (circa 1500 BC to AD 70). We are redeemed from eternal death, and I do believe I am redeemed now fully (God knows his Chosen ones). I do NOT only have a promise of it. I am among the Chosen and a son of God and a son of Abraham so I now have eternal life dwelling in me.


Originally posted by The Messenger
Ephesians 1:6-8
to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us.

scripture means what it exactly says...all past tense concerning this redemption.
You forgot to read on to see that you do NOT have this redemption except via an EARNEST (a pledge)...


Eph 1:13-14
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession,

[The Messenger]

Originally posted by GW
I put Romans 8:14-23 right up next to Galatians to show that they spoke of the exact same thing, not two different things with different referents separated by thousands of years.

LOL!!! now do that with Romans 8:10-11,23!!!!



Originally posted by GW
Wrong again. That is a straw man argument. The bible says that at the time of the resurrection of the dead ONLY THE DEAD ARE RAISED (1 Thess 4:15-16). The living did not and cannot precede the dead (1 Thess 4:15-16). The entire Church received eternal life (the change), but only the dead are raised immortal since all MUST shed the earthly body to get clothed with the Heavenly, immortal, spiritual body (1 Cor 15:36-38; 2 Cor 5:1-2). It is appointed to every man to die once. I have the eternal life that was promised to the Church, both the living and the dead in Christ; but only the dead ever experience immortal, heavenly, spiritual bodies. (1 Cor 15:36-38; 2 Cor 5:1-2).



Originally posted by GW
No. No one after AD 70 has been redeemed from the Law of Moses in that you and I nor anyone has ever been entangled in it -- no one since AD 70, that is. The state of mankind has returned back to the way it was PRIOR to the Mosaic Law Age which was a "parenthesis" in history (circa 1500 BC to AD 70). We are redeemed from eternal death, and I do believe I am redeemed now fully (God knows his Chosen ones). I do NOT only have a promise of it. I am among the Chosen and a son of God and a son of Abraham so I now have eternal life dwelling in me.

we are redeemed from SIN by the cross, not just the law that give knowledge of it! before i recieved grace i was destined for judgment, i was a sinner, your trying to make the gospel obselete here GW!!

Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

straw man? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! if that is your reaction to reality then oh well!!

FACT your already spiritually redeemed, otherwise you would not have the Holy spirit.

FACT your still in a mortal body, you have not died yet.

FACT your spiritual redemption and redemption from death are seperated by however long you live inbetwen those times.

FACT you are either in your immortal glorified body or you are not. if you are not then your waiting to be after death, with the promise of the spirit through faith making you an heir, your bodily redemption is actually recieving the inheritance.


Originally posted by GW
You forgot to read on to see that you do NOT have this redemption except via an EARNEST (a pledge)...

LOL!!! how is that while the whole time i am reminding you you redemption from bodily death is something YOU are waiting on as well?!?!? :D


ahh you posted the perfect scripture!!! let me add scripture that goes with it :D

Ephesians 1:6-8
to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us .

Eph 1:13-14
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation : in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession ,

and the "purchased possession is....

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 6:12-14
"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything. "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food" --and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for immorality, but for the Lord , and the Lord for the body. And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power

yet another comparison to Christ's resurrection and ours, your describing the resurrection process as overcoming sin in the body "mortifying sin in the flesh" Christ did not have to do this, his flesh was sinless from day one. and we ae told repeatedly our resurrection will be like His...this completes the cycle begun in the Garden, Adam and Eve sinned, they were banished from the tree of life. the cross destroyed sin, mortal death destroys the body.

from the dust we were made of we return, from the dust we were returned to we are resurrected from. the spirit goes on living in Christ and the body dies, and only what is dead needs a resurrection.

you say the cross was a "mere death", you say there will be no second coming to look forward to, you say there is no resurrection of the body. what your doing is preaching a Christianity stripped of it's miracles, made into a intellectual theory devoid of spirit, a theory that has much evidence against it, including your own mortal self.

[Yauming]

Hello,

Maybe I'm wrong. But this thread should be debated in the round table discussion. The PETCA forum isn't the place for this kind of debate.

So I'm really sorry but I am closing this thread down and seeing whether I can move it to the appropriate forum.

Thank you for your understanding!!!

:)

God loves you!!

YM

[Phoenix]

closed or moved..

[Phoenix]

Just checking to see if it was locked-nevermind.

[GW]

Originally posted by The Messenger
now do that with Romans 8:10-11,23

Romans 8:10-13 is not talking at all about a resurrection of decayed mortal dead bodies in graves:


Romans 8:10-13
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin [not biological deadness], yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness [not bodily resurrection]. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead WILL ALSO GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit who dwells in you [the 'mortal body' here is our present, living, biological bodies]. So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die [eternal death]; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live [eternal life].


We see that by following Paul's discussion back to Romans 6 we have arrived at the correct sorting out of Paul's metaphor for ceasing to live according to the Old Self and for now living to the New Self as also parallel to:


Romans 6:11-13
Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin [not biological death], but alive to God in Christ Jesus [not bodily resurrection]. Therefore DO NOT LET SIN REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY so that you obey its lusts [the 'mortal body' here is