Working during Passover

[mbams]

Ok, I am totally learning here, and so I may have this all wrong.
I am under the impression that during Passover, those who celebrate are not supposed to work on the first two and the last two days. Have I got this right? I am just curious, how Jewish or Messianic students who strictly follow the celebrations do homework or exams during this time? What about those who are employed outside of the home?

[Pray4Isrel]

I, unfortunately, must work.
But since I do observe Pesach (Passover) I believe that if I am giving my all and to the best of my ability, that is sufficient in G-d's eyes. :)

[Henaynei]

Ok, I am totally learning here, and so I may have this all wrong.
I am under the impression that during Passover, those who celebrate are not supposed to work on the first two and the last two days. Have I got this right? I am just curious, how Jewish or Messianic students who strictly follow the celebrations do homework or exams during this time? What about those who are employed outside of the home?
In the Diaspora (i.e. outside of Israel) the first 2 days are considered Shabbats and the last 2 days. IN Israel only the first day and the last day are Shabbats.

When one determines to keep the Sabbaths of G-d it requires a good bit o planning and flexibility and prayer.

I let my employer know well in advance, usually 2-3 months, that I must not work on certain days. I make sure to let them know that it is a religious commitment. I find this works best when your observance has been both visible and consistant prior to this. I also make every effort and bend over backwards to work on as many of the "public and Christian" holidays as the schedule and type of work permit. This includes Sunday.

Then, within that context I pray that HaShem grant me favor and should my employer resist or resent me taking these off (it gets really challenging during the Fall festivals), I do what must be done and actively seek other employment.

I find that presenting the needs of my religious commitments it best done, in the job seeeking scenario, after the employer has made an offer of employment - I then say, "before we agree on that there is one other thing I need to discuss with you...." Then I present the list of days I will need off for the next year - a list which I prepared at home and brought for this purpose. I explain what trades and exchanges and extra days I am willing and expecting to work becuause I am aware of the stress these requirements place upon a bsiness, employer.

As for students, I have heard of them taking the exams early or late, and turning projects & assignments in early so that they will be on time when the time off covers the due date. Again, humble and flexible early discussion usually works.

Neither an employer nor an instructor is going to be very sensitive to a request made a few days or the week before.

Plan ahead - ASK your employer or teacher in what ways you can fill-in or be flexible to mittigate the inconvienece this is to them.

I am very tired, this may not have all made sense - I'm too tired to tell.:yawn:

[Dominus Fidelis]

Do Messianics believe that if you do work on these days that it possible to lose your salvation?

[Henaynei]

Do Messianics believe that if you do work on these days that it possible to lose your salvation?
Don't know of any.....nope....:)

[Dominus Fidelis]

Don't know of any.....nope....:)

So its more like a good thing to do but not a requirement of salvtion? Interesting.

Thanks

[mbams]

Wow, Henaynei, that does take a lot of planning, but at least is workable.

For this Passover, my husband and I are just learning about it. There is so much to learn for someone who has never celebrated. Don't worry, we were not planning on suddenly strictly celebrating Passover this year just to get out of exams. We are just wondering how life works out for those who do! :)

When we came across information about the first two and last two days, we were wondering if students could even do it. If students at our school celebrate Passover, they would have great difficulty, because it lands (at least this year), right in the middle of exams. Because the semester is so tight, I don't know when the students could take exams at other times. I was just wondering how students (and employees) cope, and if their schools and employers were understanding.

[simchat_torah]

[quote]So its more like a good thing to do but not a requirement of salvtion? Interesting.
[/qoute]

Could you lose your salvation for committing adultry? How about stealing? How about lying?

While these are all sins, stating that you will lose your salvation if you committ one of these sins would NEVER be spoken by any believer. The same applies with a High Holy day.

Will you lose your salvation over one specific sin you have committed?

[Henaynei]

Wow, Henaynei, that does take a lot of planning, but at least is workable.

For this Passover, my husband and I are just learning about it. There is so much to learn for someone who has never celebrated. Don't worry, we were not planning on suddenly strictly celebrating Passover this year just to get out of exams. We are just wondering how life works out for those who do! :)

When we came across information about the first two and last two days, we were wondering if students could even do it. If students at our school celebrate Passover, they would have great difficulty, because it lands (at least this year), right in the middle of exams. Because the semester is so tight, I don't know when the students could take exams at other times. I was just wondering how students (and employees) cope, and if their schools and employers were understanding.
As I wrote in another thread, the commandments of HaShem are all about making us holy, that is separated unto Him and from the world.. This principle carried forth infuses all areas and all decisions. An observant Jewish student will include in their search criteria for a college the policy on the Sabbaths, feasts and festival observance of it's students. ;) This would carry equal or greater weight than the other criteria and would be used even as an indication of G-d's direction.

[Dominus Fidelis]

So its more like a good thing to do but not a requirement of salvtion? Interesting.
[/qoute]

Could you lose your salvation for committing adultry? How about stealing? How about lying?

While these are all sins, stating that you will lose your salvation if you committ one of these sins would NEVER be spoken by any believer. The same applies with a High Holy day.

Will you lose your salvation over one specific sin you have committed?

Yes, if I choose to deliberately commit a mortal sin, I would go to Hell. That is straight out of the Bible, but again, I can't debate here. Come to OBOB and ask me that question please.

Anyway, I didnt know that MJs believed in "Once Saved Always Saved."

I have many verses I would like to discuss which I believe contradict OSAS.

[ShirChadash]

LOL. You are ever looking for a chance to debate, eh DoF. If ya can't do it in our forum we should all come to yours so you can set us straight. ;)

[Dominus Fidelis]

No, you wont believe me but I am trying to learn.

PS

I am struggling with something very hard right now and I am looking for answers.

[ShirChadash]

Nah Defens, don't get all :( .


I just keep seeing your "I'll correct you" comments, and really with so many of your questions being still of a "let's see if I can get them backed into a corner and show em why they and their beliefs are wrong, and then show em that the RCC is right..." nature *shrug*. I htink to a degree, sure you are asking to learn. But really, it does seem you are asking to learn if there are any arguments and areas you can take advantage of to fill us in on why MJ is not the true faith and why we are "wrong" as compared to Catholicism.

My apologies if I am way off base.

PS -- like most people... I go by the cumulative experience I have had with a person online, as to how I view that person's intentions in posting afterward. And I don't mean to vilify you -- but I want you to understand somewhat that our reaction of scrutiny toward you is mainly due to your past behaviors and your comments against MJ's already on CF.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Understandable.

However, if you look at my "correct you" statements they are always in defense.

PS

If you can show me that OSAS is Biblical by answering my objections then I would be thrilled.

[ShirChadash]

However... "defense" of your religion and its stands... are not a part of learning about "ours". Eh?

[Dominus Fidelis]

However... "defense" of your religion and its stands... are not a part of learning about "ours". Eh?

Are you willing to look at my objections to OSAS and show me how I am wrong?

[ShirChadash]

As for Once Saved Always Saved, from the Word, definitively with no question of interpretation? Can't tell ya. My own thoughts and stands on the issue are as yet unsettled in entirety.

I'll tell ya one thing though... I know that, personally, I belong to Him and nothing in my life has ever or will ever take me out of His Hands. I, at one time, sadly took Yeshua with me into some awful places and situations, looking Him (metaphorically) in the eye and telling Him that I was going to do what *I* wanted... and He stood right there with me the whole time -- and not turning His back on me. And now, long long years of growing and maturing later, after He has held my hand in a very tangible way when I nearly bled to death four times, three in the last year alone... when He stands and smiles at me, and tousles my hair as though I were but a girl of 5, and lovingly laughs to see me happy... after all I have drug Him into and out of with me... because He wouldn't WOULDN'T leave my side even when I went where no one should go who calls on His name ever... where I go, He goes and I am never without Him.
I doubt He will ever leave me no matter what I do, as long as I return to Him in T'shuvah. And that is not to say that I sin (or even past tense, sinned) casually because I know I can come back -- I mean to tell you I didn't CARE at that time, when I was doing those things. I didn't give a flip anymore. I shook my fist in His face, and He kept holding my hand and cried tears for me to love Him back... and He never turned from me. Never.

And now... now that I love Him more because I know Him better and because I have matured somewhat in my WALK of faith, and learned more of how to walk the walk of faith... now I am cautious as to just where I take my Redeemer and Lord of my life.

[ShirChadash]

Are you willing to look at my objections to OSAS and show me how I am wrong?
Interesting. Did I say you are wrong? I don't recall addressing OSAS to you whatsoever on this thread before now.

I'll tell ya what. A wise pastor once told me this story:

A man bought a brand new pair of leather gloves... he loved those glves... a perfect fit. He used them so very well, and for years and years. Then one day someone borrowed those gloves off the workbench, and left them out in the rain rather than caring for them the way they needed to be cared for. The gloves eventually slipped off the fence post they had sat on for so long... dropped into the mud, dried out in the sun, were covered in snow... a few more seasons went by, and the gloves, once fine and useful in their owner's hands... became dry brittle and useless. One day someone found them, snatched them up and threw them against a wall in the shed. A mouse nested in one of them, the dog found and chewed on the other...

and even though all this happened which made the glvoes very much unusable by their owner... they were still... His gloves.

------------------------------- don't think on it too long and hard -- it's by no means a perfect analogy... but I htink it is poignant nonetheless ----------------------------------------


But hows about this: I think the real question here might be rather, "are there people who THINK they are saved, who are not?" And I think Yeshua says, "yes", for I feel these are those to whom He refers when He says that He will say to some, "I never knew you."

[Dominus Fidelis]

You didnt say I was wrong. I was hoping you could show me I am wrong though.

:cry:

[ShirChadash]

I think (man I CAN spell the word THINK I just type it wrong every single TIME!) the problem is that the Scripture used to support OSAS and OSNAS arguments is usually at the mercy of one's interpretation and the viewpoint with which one comes to read all the various verses. Now, I have to say I am truky NOt the person to answer your questions about the MJ view/understanding of so many things, because, Brother... I have never set foot in an MJ congregation, NOR a synagogue. I am an ex Catholic, ex Protestant, ex Charismatic/Pentecostal, Calvimenian embracer of the Word of G-d and Berean (<~~ which is why I am ex-so many things I suppose lol...)

I know the Word... and how the Word can be twisted by so many to support completely opposing viewpoints on every issue under the proverbial sun.

Let me just say I am praying for you DoF and go hold you before Yeshua.

I do have to stand by something I said recently in another (I think it was another) thread...

We are justified by faith. We are sanctified by obedience. To a large degree, no, I really DON'T think ANYONE ever sees Yeshua/Jesus and the One True G-d on his own at all, and if the Spirit of G-d reveals the Truth and woos the believer into relationship... then Who is it Who is initiating the relationship... calling... drawing? YHVH Elohim, of course. He says... "let me open the door to you -- the door which sets you upon the path of Life." Yeshua is the door. He opens to us the path of Life. The path of Life is Torah. Walking outside the path of Life is walking on the path of sin and death. And even THEN, those who are His are never out of His reach and He can set their feet aright upon the path of Life again... but the path of sin and death has its consequences nonetheless. I dunno... ramble ramble I am sure I'm not helping any... :sorry:

[Dominus Fidelis]

Zemirah-

For example, can you explain what this means to me:

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?" - Heb 10:26-29

Does it not mean that if we sin on purpose then Yeshua's sacrifice is no longer covering us?

Thanks

[Plan 9]

Zemirah-

For example, can you explain what this means to me:

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?" - Heb 10:26-29

Does it not mean that if we sin on purpose then Yeshua's sacrifice is no longer covering us?

Thanks The whole letter to the Hebrews should be read to be understood; not just one passage. Even just the earlier part of chapter 10 makes the latter part more clear.
The theme of Hebrews is faith and unbelief, and it's through making a decision for unbelief that "we deliberately persist in sin", as my translation phrases it. The writer is speaking of an entire, conscious rejection of ones faith, the trampling underfoot (my translation's rendering of the term "spurn") of Yeshua himself, profaning the blood of the covenant by which one was consecrated, and insulting G-d's gracious spirit.
Hebrews is speaking of wholly faithless individuals here who have entirely rejected what they once accepted and took full part in; apostates. Persisting in deliberate sin is shown to be the natural consequence of turning away from true faith, and the utter rejection of HaShem.
I don't see how this passage pertains to Zemirah's posts on the subject; anyone who's done such a horrifying thing is unlikely to be posting in this forum at all.

[Dominus Fidelis]

plan9-

So your interpretation is that this "sin" is only refering to total apostasy from the faith?

[koilias]

Yes...Hebrews is addressing the apostates. Especially those that taught that sinful practices were actually no longer sin. Hebrews was probably written by an Alexandrian Jew who confronted apostasy in churches which taught that the Torah was to be purposely violated in the messianic era. This heresy comes up in Jewish messianic movements in general. Disputations against these heretics is well document, in Revelation Yeshua condemns them in strongest possible terms. The heresy of Gnosticism, which declared the entire Tenakh a profane book written about an inferior god, developed from Alexandrian apostates.

True messianism calls people back to Torah...not away.

[visionary]

From reading all that has been posted back and forth regarding OSAS, I have come to see that you are spiritually concerned as to how this will apply to you. If you believe OSAS, will God believe that about you? Have faith, God will do everything he can to lead you in the path of all the truth, and have faith, he who has begun a good work will work til you say stop. After all God is a gentleman and will honor your requests, including those that are harmful to your spiritual growth. You are to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. We are to learn to fear God, not the world and what it thinks. Pray for the Lord to answer this question that plagues you so. The multitude of answers you have received over time and done nothing but confuse you. God is the only one who can put his signature on the answer that will give you that peace that passes all understanding.

May you be blessed with an answer that only the Lord can give, to settle this in your heart.

Visioanry

[ShirChadash]

I'm still pondering on your question ^ DoF and I may yet address the Scripture specifically (didn't want you to think I am ignoring your post)... I have to say, cursorily, I agree with Plan 9 and Koilias.

[Plan 9]

plan9-

So your interpretation is that this "sin" is only refering to total apostasy from the faith?
Yes. As Koilias has pointed out, chapter one refutes the Gnostic doctrine that Yeshua was merely an 'immanation' (an angel) of a higher being.
This letter addresses the ultimate sin, not a sin which believers commit.
As believers, we all worry about about our sins may be separating us, at the very least, from G-d's companionship, and different theological positions have arisen as a result, but I don't see how this particular passage could possibly apply.

As you probably recall, in the play Hamlet, there's an interesting twist to this anxiety. Hamlet's father has died unshriven, because he was murdered in his sleep by his brother, Claudius, and Hamlet is charged to revenge this murder.
However, when he makes up his mind to do so, he holds back because he finds Caudius praying for forgiveness of his sins, and it's not enough to kill Claudius; a just retribution requires that Claudius suffer as much in the afterlife as Hamlet's father suffering, and Shakespeare's audience was well aware of that.