What constitutes work?

[Theophilus7]

Shalom.

I am curious as to what constitutes work on the Sabbath. Does the Messianic Jewish interpretation differ from traditional Judaism? Is "work" always connected with making a living, or does it extend to cover study and self-improvement? For example, would a Jew refuse to pick up a philosophical book, reading and making notes, on the Sabbath?

[simchat_torah]

How many cans of worms do you want to open?

;)

[simchat_torah]

In Judaism there are 3 areas of Halacha (oral law) that are the most intensive and detailed. It is said that if you can master these three areas of your life, you can master anything. Those three sections of halacha are:
1) Sabbath
2) Kosher
3) Family Purity laws


Typically, Sabbath is the top of the list... most difficult to master.



Now, as far as Messianic Judaism is concerned:
Messianic Judaism is as varied as the colors of the rainbow (or so I keep telling everyone here at CF ;) ). Some will follow the strictest sense of oral tradition (halacha), while others will make up whatever they feel "G-d impresses upon their heart"... and everything in between.

So, a short answer to your question is near impossible. However, you can see the two ends of the spectrum.

As far as the more "judaic" end (halachically minded observance), anything:
creative, laborious, a form of earning wages... and even that often called "common"
is seen as breaking the Sabbath. The last part, is of course, the most difficult to pinpoint. Is watching a movie 'common'? How about reading a book?

Anyway, this is not by any means an easily answered question. If you have something more specific in mind, it would be much easier.

Shalom,
yafet

[Theophilus7]

Thanks for your reply.

If you have something more specific in mind, it would be much easier.
How about the example I gave - reading a book of philosophy or theology, or anything academic really, and perhaps making notes on it? (Most people, I think, couldn't get through a volume of philosophy and understand it thoroughly without making some notes).

This isn't physical labour. It has nothing to do with making a living. It does involve some mental effort, but then, is mental exertion forbidden on the Sabbath, do you think? (If so, perhaps the safest way of spending the Sabbath would be to slip quietly into a coma! :D)

Thanks very much.

[Henaynei]

Studying to understand G-d better is always meritorious, however writing is not permited :)

In terms of the 39 categories of restrictions (http://www.rjca.org/melachot.html), Melachot, see below. Keep in mind that the rabbinic understanding of "work" from which we cease is two-fold; 1) that which is "creating" as it is creating from which G-d rested, 2) anything that would lead to creating. It is interesting to note that the original halakah on what was and was not "work" was made shortly after the command was given, thus it was decided that the activities necessary to create and maintain the Mishkan (Tabernacle) were examples of forbidden work. Just to answer the question before it is asked: yes, many of these activities were done on Shabbats in the Tabernacle and Temples, this is because G-d gave specific instructions that they were to be done, some specifically on those days, some continiously evvery day --- but this instruction was specific to the Sanctuary.


Sowing
Plowing
Reaping
Binding Sheaves
Threshing
Winnowing
Selecting
Grinding
Sifting
Kneading
Baking
Shearing Wool
Cleaning


Combing
Dyeing
Spinning
Stretching the Threads
Making Loops
Weaving Threads
Separating the Threads
Tying a Knot
Untying a Knot
Sewing
Tearing
Trapping
Slaughtering


Skinning
Salting
Tanning
Scraping
Cutting
Writing
Erasing
Building
Breaking Down
Extinguishing a Fire
Kindling a Fire
Striking the Final Hammer Blow
Carrying

[Plan 9]

I am disabled and can no longer support myself, so my "paying" job consists of periods of struggle with governmental paperwork.
I tried to keep sabbath for the first time, and after first thinking it over for quite awhile. All days are much alike for me now, so I was perplexed as to how to observe the sabbath, since many people would consider me idle almost of the time.
What I finally did, in lieu of actually knowing how, was to observe it as a day of rest, in that I did nothing that feels like work to me; I did only things that were relaxing.
I was a workaholic for years, and I'm an internet workaholic now, so I did not go to those sites at which I have duties which are onerous, in the way that work has always been to me. If I caught myself thinking, "I really need to get that done.", as in "I really have to go to work now, or I'll be late.", then I didn't do it.
Some studying I do constitutes work to me, and some is just because I enjoy it.
I did exercise a modicum of creativity, but it was of the type I would have considered recreational creativity; an attempt to frame a few ideas and post them here, which is relaxing and enjoyable religious discussion to me.
I have no idea if I kept the sabbath, but what I do know is that it was a day that isn't going to blend into the other days of my life, which I sometimes lose track of because of their sameness, and I was sorry when it was over.
I enjoy little face-to-face interaction, so my reaction to weekends used to be boredom and loneliness and this sense that they were unending (what a friend of mine used to call "Suicide Sundays"), because many of the people I love to "talk" to spend far less time on the internet then for religious reasons.
Now I wish I could make the entire weekend the sabbbath, because it's simply not true that people who don't work for a living don't need a special day of rest and I was suprised at how happy and relaxed I felt as a result.
Still, I have this extra area of puzzlement, in addition to what is apparantly the usual can of worms, and I'm more inclined to trust reason than I am emotion when it comes to such things.
The result is that I don't know whether I observed it, or just made a stab in the dark at observing it, but I do know that it was a fruitful time, when I wasn't expecting it to be; my mind wasn't primarily fixed on my own self-benefit, for a change :rolleyes: but trying to somehow do what G-d wants of me.

[Henaynei]

I'm more inclined to trust reason than I am emotion when it comes to such things.......... but trying to somehow do what G-d wants of me.
Only thing I can think of.....Wisdom ;):clap:

[Plan 9]

Studying to understand G-d better is always meritorious, however writing is not permited :)
I may have blown it, then. I don't ordinarily consider communing with others via the internet as "writing". What do you think?



In terms of the 39 categories of restrictions (http://www.rjca.org/melachot.html), Melachot, see below. Keep in mind that the rabbinic understanding of "work" from which we cease is two-fold; 1) that which is "creating" as it is creating from which G-d rested, 2) anything that would lead to creating.[/quote]
I don't understand this part. How do you define "creativity"? Nearly all of mine, such as it is, :rolleyes: is mental in nature.
I ordinarily don't make notes when I study, though...instead I wait for a period of time, and then read the book again.



Sowing
Plowing
Reaping
Binding Sheaves
Threshing
Winnowing
Selecting
Grinding
Sifting
Kneading
Baking
Shearing Wool
Cleaning


Combing
Dyeing
Spinning
Stretching the Threads
Making Loops
Weaving Threads
Separating the Threads
Tying a Knot
Untying a Knot
Sewing
Tearing
Trapping
Slaughtering


Skinning
Salting
Tanning
Scraping
Cutting
Writing
Erasing
Building
Breaking Down
Extinguishing a Fire
Kindling a Fire
Striking the Final Hammer Blow
Carrying


Well, most of those aren't going to trouble me, and how are you making bullets??? I am nearly overcome with envy! :eek:

[Plan 9]

Only thing I can think of.....Wisdom ;):clap:
If so, I may be in real trouble next week, because it was way fun, and now I know that. ;)

It's another example which proves Viktor Frankl's assertion that if we primarily seek self-gratification in our lives, then we will never achieve it. Whereas, if we make the search for meaning the goal of our lives, self-gratification will naturally happen.
That summary doesn't do his ideas justice, I'm sorry to say; you must read Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning for real understanding of his concepts.

[Henaynei]

I may have blown it, then. I don't ordinarily consider communing with others via the internet as "writing". What do you think?Personally, I am under conviction and a clear understanding that I am definately creating something that was not there, when I type on the internet. I am struggling with this and have come up with numerous excuses that I trot our for myself as I type away on Shabbat. I have been successufl in the past avoiding the computer, but less so lately.....



In terms of the 39 categories of restrictions (http://www.rjca.org/melachot.html), Melachot, see below. Keep in mind that the rabbinic understanding of "work" from which we cease is two-fold; 1) that which is "creating" as it is creating from which G-d rested, 2) anything that would lead to creating.I don't understand this part. How do you define "creativity"? Nearly all of mine, such as it is, :rolleyes: is mental in nature.
I ordinarily don't make notes when I study, though...instead I wait for a period of time, and then read the book again.Not creativity, but creating. Using our G-d-like capasity to create, to make something happen or come into existance that would not without our agency. Like the lights, the typing on the computer screen, the energy and motion of the car, etc..... I do try to avoid thinking about work things, but (while some think I have perfected it) I have not yet been able to stop thinking all together ;)



Well, most of those aren't going to trouble me, and how are you making bullets??? I am nearly overcome with envy! :eek:
Actually, I did this one the easy way, I pasted it....

However if you look at the top of your edit window in CF, up where you chose the font and color, you will see choices for bulleting and indenting - between the justification and the url link icons ;)

[Plan 9]

Personally, I am under conviction and a clear understanding that I am definately creating something that was not there, when I type on the internet. I am struggling with this and have come up with numerous excuses that I trot our for myself as I type away on Shabbat. I have been successufl in the past avoiding the computer, but less so lately..... For me, that would mean spending the day in complete solitude...except for the presence of my dogs. I have to do that so much now, due to illness, that it's sometimes a form of torture.


Not creativity, but creating. Using our G-d-like capasity to create, to make something happen or come into existance that would not without our agency. Like the lights, the typing on the computer screen, the energy and motion of the car, etc.....[/color]

The lights?

[quote]I do try to avoid thinking about work things, but (while some think I have perfected it) I have not yet been able to stop thinking all together ;)
If the cessation of creative thought is necessary for right sabbath observance, I can introduce you to an astounding number of people on the internet who appear to have perfected it as an entire way of life.
Would you like some links? ;)



Actually, I did this one the easy way, I pasted it....

However if you look at the top of your edit window in CF, up where you chose the font and color, you will see choices for bulleting and indenting - between the justification and the url link icons ;)
The program has a bullet option??! The indent option works??!
I've never posted on site with a working indent option, so when I saw it, I just thought, "Yeah, right, and the jeep will be waiting, too." :rolleyes:
That's paraphrased from a joke I was told in Israel, so perhaps you should PM me if you want to hear it? :scratch:

[Henaynei]

For me, that would mean spending the day in complete solitude...except for the presence of my dogs. I have to do that so much now, due to illness, that it's sometimes a form of torture.Vee ave vays of making you talk!!!!



Not creativity, but creating. Using our G-d-like capacity to create, to make something happen or come into existance that would not without our agency. Like the lights, the typing on the computer screen, the energy and motion of the car, etc.....The lights?
Yes, in my home we turn on and off the ones we wish just before Shabbat and then place a piece of tape on them to remind us to not change their status.



If the cessation of creative thought is necessary for right sabbath observance, I can introduce you to an astounding number of people on the internet who appear to have perfected it as an entire way of life.
Would you like some links? ;)
Nah, I am brainless enough without any help, thanks!!! :) (hey, anyone notice the *new* smilie guy?)



The program has a bullet option??! The indent option works??!
I've never posted on site with a working indent option, so when I saw it, I just thought, "Yeah, right, and the jeep will be waiting, too." :rolleyes:
That's paraphrased from a joke I was told in Israel, so perhaps you should PM me if you want to hear it? :scratch:
ummmm.... is it suitable for tender ears?? :scratch: :)

[Plan 9]

Vee ave vays of making you talk!!!!

"What is this?! The Spanish Inquisition?!"
"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Seriously, though; I'm in increasing danger of becoming a recluse, which is a real psychological impairment for me, and I suspect, in my case, also a spiritual one, from observing my mother's behavioral change as she became more and more chronically ill.

Yes, in my home we turn on and off the ones we wish just before Shabbat and then place a piece of tape on them to remind us to not change their status. How interesting! That had never occured to me! That wouldn't be hard to do, in my case; I use very few lights now. LOL


Nah, I am brainless enough without any help, thanks!!! :) No, you need considerable training to even approach pseudo-brainlessness.
Or should that be "untraining"?

(hey, anyone notice the *new* smilie guy?) YES! Isn't he cute. I'm even more excited about the winkie smilie guy--I'm hoping that he'll actually do the job!
Most don't seem to work at all; people still think you're deadly serious and become angry or distressed...then they tell me all about their feelings, and I find myself becoming angry or distressed.




ummmm.... is it suitable for tender ears?? :scratch: :) Yes, it is, but it's much like telling a Polish joke to a group and then discovering that one of the group is Polish. For most, I've successfully substituted "ethnic minority", as in "Two ethnic minorities went duck hunting, and.." but that won't work this time. I heard it years later as an ethnic minority joke, with the specifics generalized, and the punchline lacked punch. As a matter of fact, it's a bit of a 'shaggy dog story', so the joke loses a great deal without its specifics.

[Henaynei]

"What is this?! The Spanish Inquisition?!"
"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Seriously, though; I'm in increasing danger of becoming a recluse, which is a real psychological impairment for me, and I suspect, in my case, also a spiritual one, from observing my mother's behavioral change as she became more and more chronically ill.
What part of the world live you in?
Have you found the Physically Challenged forum on CF?
I know what you mean by your mom - mine has excerbated mental dysfunction since she no longer has dad to shield her from the world ..... or the world from her - not sure which.

How interesting! That had never occured to me! That wouldn't be hard to do, in my case; I use very few lights now. LOL We actually found it very interesting how many lights we really could do without for 24 hours - we do leave a few more on when we have guests :)


No, you need considerable training to even approach pseudo-brainlessness. Or should that be "untraining"?
LOL - how very generous of you to say so ;)

YES! Isn't he cute. I'm even more excited about the winkie smilie guy--I'm hoping that he'll actually do the job!
Most don't seem to work at all; people still think you're deadly serious and become angry or distressed...then they tell me all about their feelings, and I find myself becoming angry or distressed. Well, you ARE a good listener - you just need to develop a bit of added professionalism in that like nurses (I'm one), and other caregivers, you learn to have geniune compassion and involvement, within the perimeters of the specific exchange/situation, but learn to lay it down there and not "take it home," -- remember what yer momma taught you "if it's not your's don't take it."


Yes, it is,
LOL - we'll see.....

[Hix]

Jewish tradition holds that "work" is defined as the same thing HaShem rested for: creation. HaShem did not need to rest during the creation, nor did he need to spend a certain length of time such 6 days creating, but it was a guideline for us to follow that he was setting. So on Shabbat the day of rest, we are to abstain from anything which creates. Which can also imply that for the other days of the week we are to do something which does create. To me posting on CF applies here also.

But thats just my feelings on this I guess, as Yafet said MJ is as varied as the colors of the rainbow :)
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Plan 9]

What part of the world live you in?
Have you found the Physically Challenged forum on CF?
I know what you mean by your mom - mine has excerbated mental dysfunction since she no longer has dad to shield her from the world ..... or the world from her - not sure which.
I've seen that a lot, and too often the surviving spouse follows shortly thereafter, so I was very relieved when my father immediately understood that he would need to alter the way in which he lived. As we sat quietly together on some steps together outside the neuro-trauma unit during a period when there were quite a few family members there wanting to say goodbye, so to speak, my father said out of the blue, "You know...this changes everything! I knew then he would be all right. :)
My mom started by not going places when she was to ill to participate in the social interaction, which I understand. Slowly, however, she ceased to leave our home at all, although she was always happy in my company, and some of my friends used to come over to visit her, rather than me, and return to visit with me another day. At these times, she was her old vivacious self.
In my case, I have always suffered from intense attacks of shyness. although a med I take now both shortens the duration of these and their frequency, when combined with the more negative feelings I now share with my mother, the amount of time I must spend in bed to recover back function, and a few other things having to do with my neurological problems, I feel that it's urgent that I not retreat from social contact when I don't have to. Toward the end, if we could convince my mother to go out, she enjoyed it, after all.

I do read in the Physically Challenged forum and occassionally post there, as well.

We actually found it very interesting how many lights we really could do without for 24 hours - we do leave a few more on when we have guests :)
Yes, I discovered that, too, once I began to suffer migraines from too much available light; of course my eyes are dark adapted to a degree now. I too turn on more lights for company. Right now, I'm typing by the light of a 25 watt bulb about fifteen feet to the right. I could use a bit more light, but it's my right eye which is affected and I have no lamp to place to my left.
Someday (I hope soon), I'll be able to afford new eyeglasses and the cab money to get there to buy them and pick them up; my prescription is now inadequate.
I'm reading from the monitor though the bifocal parts of my lenses now and must remove them to read, so that when I want to copy something from a book, it's a time consuming process.
They told me when I bought new frames that there is a new glare-proof coating which is superior to the photosun lenses I have now.
I'm not sure I've ever needed as much light as most people; I've been comfortably reading by candlelight or kerosine lamplight during storms for as long as I can remember. I grew up in an antique shop. LOL



LOL - how very generous of you to say so ;)
Generosity was not involved; I was merely stating a fact.

Well, you ARE a good listener - you just need to develop a bit of added professionalism in that like nurses (I'm one), and other caregivers, you learn to have geniune compassion and involvement, within the perimeters of the specific exchange/situation, but learn to lay it down there and not "take it home," -- remember what yer momma taught you "if it's not your's don't take it."
Well, I was a psych major. Do you think that counts? ;)

I love listening to people. I find people endlessly fascinating even when I dislike them a bit.

I think my difficulties lie in three areas:

First, my sense of humor is not easily appeciated by just everyone. My sig was intended to warn people of this, but I have a bad feeling that people who laugh at the joke in my sig are the ones who are having no trouble.
Second, this most often happens in debate threads, when I'm to make a joke to lighten things up.
Third, some people simply have no discernable sense of humor, so no emoticon ever made will be effective in making it clear that I'm only joking. Once I understand that, I cut out all joking...and sometime PM an apology and explanation.

One major problem with not taking it home is that, to paraphase Q from Star Trek, "This is as real as my so-called life gets." LOL
I am home, and I regularly dream I'm posting or reading posts.





LOL - we'll see.....[/QUOTE]

[Plan 9]

Jewish tradition holds that "work" is defined as the same thing HaShem rested for: creation. HaShem did not need to rest during the creation, nor did he need to spend a certain length of time such 6 days creating, but it was a guideline for us to follow that he was setting. So on Shabbat the day of rest, we are to abstain from anything which creates. Which can also imply that for the other days of the week we are to do something which does create. To me posting on CF applies here also.

But thats just my feelings on this I guess, as Yafet said MJ is as varied as the colors of the rainbow :)
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

I think we may be in basic agreement. I abstained from not only running, but playing in my RPG, because I consider both creative acts: a combination of acting, directing, and writing on my part, whether the result appears to reflect that or not. ;)
I stayed away from my admin job because that's definitely work, and having admin powers means that I am actually asked to create such things as new subfora.
I might make the same decision you have, if it weren't for the fact that I have no other social interaction available to me. Do you consider it a creative act to discuss things with others on the sabbath? Believe it or not, I'm asking that in all seriousness, Hix. There's a sense in which that could be valid, because speaking (or writing) our thoughts actually aids us in framing them into coherent form, which is why people sometimes seek 'sounding boards', rather than asking for advice.

[Hix]

Understanding "work" is a difficult concept especially since "work" in the Bible is not the same as the modern day usage of the word. The word used in the Torah is Melachah which in general refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment.

Shalom Planny :) as for me, I also have nothing in the way of social interaction other than what is online, even my fiance I only see online. So I can relate to you there! What is important to remember that Shabbat carries two primary commandments, the first is Zachor, which is to remember, in which we are to remember the reasons for Shabbat, ie creation and also freedom from slavery in Egypt. The second is Shamor, to observe, which is the one we are discussing now ie what exactly defines work with which we are to refrain. It is my personal belief that if you were on Shabbat to have social interaction with others who keep the Shabbat as you would if you went to Daven (pray) at Synagogue, then it wouldnt be considered breaking the Shabbat. However I dont know whether it is or not, Im sure there is a Rabbinic ruling on the matter at some point ;)

Maybe someone more learned than I could shed some more light on the matter....as long as they switched the light on before/after Shabbat that is lol.
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[visionary]

my two cents worth.....sabbath is a day dedicated to being with the Lord...in prayer, in fellowship with other believers, in Bible reading, and in song of praise to our Creator and Redeemer..if he inspires me to read in his Word, if He inspires me to go out into nature, if He inspires me to do good for someone, if He inspires me to go online and witness, then I do. It is a day that is dedicated to do His work, like Jesus said it was to be as He went about doing His Father's work on the sabbath. The list of things not to do are all good and are done but not to the extent that they turn into "work" not to do. If it is for the good of someone else that it is done, then I will, for the sabbath is not to be a burden but a delight. It is not for the business of buying and selling, which is where I draw a harder line.

[Plan 9]

Understanding "work" is a difficult concept especially since "work" in the Bible is not the same as the modern day usage of the word. The word used in the Torah is Melachah which in general refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment.

Shalom Planny :) as for me, I also have nothing in the way of social interaction other than what is online, even my fiance I only see online. So I can relate to you there! What is important to remember that Shabbat carries two primary commandments, the first is Zachor, which is to remember, in which we are to remember the reasons for Shabbat, ie creation and also freedom from slavery in Egypt. The second is Shamor, to observe, which is the one we are discussing now ie what exactly defines work with which we are to refrain. It is my personal belief that if you were on Shabbat to have social interaction with others who keep the Shabbat as you would if you went to Daven (pray) at Synagogue, then it wouldnt be considered breaking the Shabbat. However I dont know whether it is or not, Im sure there is a Rabbinic ruling on the matter at some point ;)

Maybe someone more learned than I could shed some more light on the matter....as long as they switched the light on before/after Shabbat that is lol.
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
Hix, are you saying that you never go to temple, don't have a job or go to school, or go to the grocery store, and that you expect approximately one personal telephone call a month?
I've never been to synagogue, nor have a ever belonged to any Gentile fellowship of strict shabbat observers, and I'm at all sure that I have it in me to do so. At the best of times I've never been a good Christian; I'm just a sort a of single celled Christian. :rolleyes:
If it were possible to poll everyone I post regularly with here, and have them answer honestly, I think you would find that it's mostly the non-Christians here who consider me a "real" Christian.

[Hix]

The point I was trying to make was that as to your question about discussing things with others on Shabbat, I see nothing wrong with it as the same is done at Shul each Shabbos. That is, assuming they know HaShem.

Honestly whether or not your a christian is irrelevant, you love G-d and you seek to do His will and know him, that IMHO is better than the empty words of countless christians.
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Plan 9]

The point I was trying to make was that as to your question about discussing things with others on Shabbat, I see nothing wrong with it as the same is done at Shul each Shabbos. That is, assuming they know HaShem.
I see. Thank you. :)
I must admit, though, most of the churches I belong to are extremely upbeat, and often downright entertaining.

I wish I had a better word to use when speaking of myself as Christian, but when I use it, I think I mean what you mean by "Messianic": one who believes that Yeshua is Messiah, and makes at least some attempt to be guided by his teachings.

...you love G-d and you seek to do His will and know him...
I wish these things were as true of me as you believe them to be.

...that IMHO is better than the empty words of countless christians.

Undoubtedly true, and it's of some comfort to me that our "non-Christians" (for lack of a better term), recognize me as one pretty quickly (for lack of a better term), in non-religious threads, without my displaying my icon, without my preaching at them, or my using jargon which makes me sound much like Ned Flanders.
I never have fit in with the majority of Gentile Christians I've known, but a small minority of them have left me far behind in terms of loving HaShem, and seeking to do his will and to know him, occasionally right from conversion, too. They just blow me away! :)

[ShirChadash]

Only thing I can think of.....Wisdom ;):clap:
See Planny -- Wisdom. I am not the ONLY one who uses such a word in reference to you and your thoughts. See?????!!!!!?????!!!!

[Plan 9]

See Planny -- Wisdom. I am not the ONLY one who uses such a word in reference to you and your thoughts. See?????!!!!!?????!!!!

Yeah, I saw. LOL
And Hix's latest post here--Wowser! You folks are just too easy! ;)

[The Thadman]

Sowing
Plowing
Reaping
Binding Sheaves
Threshing
Winnowing
Selecting
Grinding
Sifting
Kneading
Baking
Shearing Wool
Cleaning


Combing
Dyeing
Spinning
Stretching the Threads
Making Loops
Weaving Threads
Separating the Threads
Tying a Knot
Untying a Knot
Sewing
Tearing
Trapping
Slaughtering


Skinning
Salting
Tanning
Scraping
Cutting
Writing
Erasing
Building
Breaking Down
Extinguishing a Fire
Kindling a Fire
Striking the Final Hammer Blow
Carrying


I'm sorry, when it becomes work to figure out what work is... I must express my opinion. :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[Henaynei]

Yeah, I saw. LOL
And Hix's latest post here--Wowser! You folks are just too easy! ;)
Yeah, just regular push-overs, that's us!!


NOT!! LOL ^_^

[Henaynei]

I'm sorry, when it becomes work to figure out what work is... I must express my opinion. :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-o
HUH?? :) All the "work" was done centuries ago ;) LOL