Orthodox Christians and Messianic Jews

[SaintGeorge]

Okay, after much thought I've decided to post this thread in an effort to break the ice between us. So often Catholics and Jews get off on the wrong foot with each other. You know what I mean. First we call you prisoners of the Law, then you call us pagan Mary worshippers, then we're both calling each other heretics, and before you know it we're all gasping for breath in between screaming (at each other) It's just a bad deal.

Anyway, I'd like to start a club to increase awareness of both our faiths and promote increased toleration between us. Please let me know if you're interested in joining.

Feel free to post comments or questions.

In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, God bless you!!! Amen.:crossrc:

May Yeshua's blessings be upon you. BaruchHashem!!!:amen:

[insaneinthebrain]

Well, the TAW end of this has said about all I need to hear. :(

[Bon]

Esran,

Please feel free to come and chat with us in the MJ forum.

It seems that there are not many who feel the same way you do.


So often Catholics and Jews get off on the wrong foot with each other.

I just read the posts to date on the TAW part of this thread .........is that the foot you're talking about?

Thank you for the invite.....

Shalom from Bon

[Marjorie]

Shalom all,

I just want everyone here to know that TAW's reaction was not anti-Messianic or anti-Jewish in any form. We would love to have you come fellowship with us, but TAW is not a debate board so any heated discussion of our faith would have to be done elsewhere. But please feel free to join us.

!שיר המעלות לדוד הנה מה-טוב ומה-נעים שבת אחים גם-יחד

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Katydid]

what is heterodoxy??

[mjterry87]

Catholics are the only Christians that I can stand. LOL No, I'm just kidding, I do have many differences with Christians, but I would never tell them to go eat poop! They are fellow believers in Yeshua.

[visionary]

I appreciate the effor that you have made to help bridge the gap. You heart is in the right place and I think it is wonderful that you are making the effort. As to the responses that you already received from your own, I would say that it was not well tolerated idea.

Please feel free to continue to communicate with us, we are not bad folk, in fact we are quite friendly. The debates on various issues does not change the fact that we all sincerely desire a closer walk with God, both the Son and the Father in the Spirit.

May your spiritual journey lead you into God's kingdom, so that when you see our Jewish King of Kings sitting on the throne, you will rejoice with us.

[Marjorie]

Catholics are the only Christians that I can stand. LOL No, I'm just kidding, I do have many differences with Christians, but I would never tell them to go eat poop! They are fellow believers in Yeshua.Well, we Orthodox are not in communion with the Catholic Church (just to clarify for you and the OP.) Also, a lot of people think that Orthodoxy is just crypto-Catholicism, whereas in actuality it is greatly distinct from both Catholicism and Protestantism, which in a lot of ways are closer to each other than they are to Orthodoxy.

I appreciate the last sentence a lot; all the other messianics I've come into contact with have simply called me an apostate (both as a Jew-- I was raised Jewish and am ethnically Jewish-- and as a Christian) and left it at that. It is nice to see more tolerance from one of the Messianic am adonai.

Anyway, for everyone here, understand that TAW's reaction was only because Messianic debates have caused problems before in TAW and it is not a debate board. But PLEASE feel free to come to our board for fellowship!!!

Y'varech'cha Adonai v'yishm'recha.
Ya-eir Adonai panav eilecha vichuneka.
Yisa Adonai panav eilecha v'yaseim l'cha shalom.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Marjorie]

what is heterodoxy??Orthodoxy in Greek means "right worship," "right belief," and "right glory." Heterodoxy means "other worship/belief/glory"... so in general it is used to refer to those not in communion with the Orthodox. It is not necessarily a derogatory term, just a word to indicate that any given group is not part of the Orthodox Church, does not share its beliefs, its worship, etc.

In Yahshua Ha'moshiach,
Marjorie

[Sephania]

Well before any of us had a chance to get up enough nerve to venture in where we apparently really aren't welcome it has been shut down to us. Perhaps that is best as the light we are seen in is one of very low wattage. :sigh:

Besides the first response saying we are 'incompatable' ( wonder how that will go off in heaven? ) the next response was to close it, which to me indicates the heart (of the matter of) those in that forum. Sorry but that is all I see.

Along with being labled a Protest-ant Zionist Group, and that my friends is the crux of the matter.

And to keep from violating any of the forums rules, that is all I will say except that Esran, you do indeed have a heart of a servant of the L-rD and I humbly applaude your efforts. Please don't be discouraged by the outcome, it makes it no less a loving work in the sight of the L-RD.

Maybe someday............:pray:

Shalom my friend, a friend of peace.

~Z~

[Orthosdoxa]

Well before any of us had a chance to get up enough nerve to venture in where we apparently really aren't welcome it has been shut down to us. Perhaps that is best as the light we are seen in is one of very low wattage. :sigh:
Ah, but that is simply not true. Not true at all.

As for the person who said that we're incompatible -well, yes and no. Our theologies are entirely so. But that doesn't mean we can't have friendly discourse in each other's threads. I don't think I'd be incompatible with any one of you to just talk and hang out.

Although Esran means well, I think a thread forcing such things is not going to go anywhere good. I think it's safe to say that we see MJs just like any other nonOrthodox group. As in, we're not in communion with them. And that's all it is and nothing more. I'm not sure where he came up with this notion that we reserve some special hatred for them. If he was MJ I'd say it might be a martyr complex, but since he's not (nor is he Orthodox) I'm not sure what the point was. And I don't know why he's singled out MJs above any other nonOrthodox group, but I think a more productive course of action would be to say, "Come hang out with us in the Taverna!" I myself regularly extend that invitation to folks I meet in other forums, because it's a nonthreatening, non-theological environment where people just talk about whatever. Not because they're not welcome to post in other threads, but because it's just a good first step.

As Marjorie has repeatedly said, MJ's are very welcome in the TAW forum. As are all people. We just don't want debate.

I'm going to dare to speak for the TAW members when I say that ALL of us are unwelcoming for debate (which is I think what most of us were afraid this thread would lead to - that's why we wanted it shut down -not because MJs aren't welcome). And ALL of us are entirely welcoming of folks coming over to fellowship, chat, shoot the breeze, whatever.

I'm going to go a step beyond saying you're welcome in TAW. I'm asking you to please come hang out with us in the Taverna. First one to post over there gets a free Heineken! :D

Lana-Katherine

[Oblio]

Well before any of us had a chance to get up enough nerve to venture in where we apparently really aren't welcome it has been shut down to us. Perhaps that is best as the light we are seen in is one of very low wattage.


Actually, the reason it was shut down was because it (in conjunction with this thread) was causing bad feelings. Not the intent of the OP, but it happened none the less. It was not shut down because MJs are unwelcome. We take thread closings seriously and do so only as a last resort. Fellowship posts from anyone are always welcome at TAW.

[visionary]

Personally I do not know enough about the Orthodox to step in, without fear of stepping on toes. The things that I say freely here, would probably be controversial over there. The things that we consider to be established and original from Yeshua could be found to go against some founding father, and I may not know the difference.

While I appreciate the offer, until I learn more of the customs of the land, I would say that it would be better for me not to venture out. If there is a safe zone where one could learn without offending, I would be interested. Me and my big mouth makes it easy to open up and insert foot. For example, I went into the catholic forum on my first day on the forum and asked "Peter then who?" wanting to get the list of order... and got shut down in a heart beat. Some controversies are so controversal that even in asking it is taken as offensive. SO until I have a better undertanding of where everyone stands, it is safer to stay where I am understood, not as a contentious person but a student of His Word seeking to understand the heart of the matter.

[Orthosdoxa]

Personally I do not know enough about the Orthodox to step in, without fear of stepping on toes. The things that I say freely here, would probably be controversial over there. The things that we consider to be established and original from Yeshua could be found to go against some founding father, and I may not know the difference.

While I appreciate the offer, until I learn more of the customs of the land, I would say that it would be better for me not to venture out. If there is a safe zone where one could learn without offending, I would be interested. Me and my big mouth makes it easy to open up and insert foot. For example, I went into the catholic forum on my first day on the forum and asked "Peter then who?" wanting to get the list of order... and got shut down in a heart beat. Some controversies are so controversal that even in asking it is taken as offensive. SO until I have a better undertanding of where everyone stands, it is safer to stay where I am understood, not as a contentious person but a student of His Word seeking to understand the heart of the matter.

I understand. We do have many come in and say, "I mean no offense by this, but I don't understand such and such" and then everything's fine. The people who come in hootin' and hollerin' about how THEY'RE the only ones who've got it right are the ones who get shut down in TAW. So I wouldn't be afraid to ask questions, so long as you make it clear that you're not looking for controversy.

And if you want to learn stuff, you can always visit my little website :)

http://stienekel.tripod.com/

I made it for my Baptist family, who thought I'd fallen off the deep end when I left Protestantism. It's got real basic info about Holy Orthodoxy on it.

And the invitation still stands to come join us in the Taverna! (http://www.christianforums.com/t43364-st-euphrosynos-taverna-and-ouzeri.html)

Lana-Katherine

[SaintGeorge]

If he was MJ I'd say it might be a martyr complex, but since he's not (nor is he Orthodox) I'm not sure what the point was.

I'm sorry to have caused you any offense, but it does not seem that the Messianic Jews were offended. And what's the "(nor is he Orthodox)" comment all about? It's true that I'm not yet officially part of the Orthodox Church, but I know where my heart is and so does God.

What I'm protesting is the way we treat "heterodox" (by the way, how do we know whose truly Orthodox or not, I thought only the Father knew that). We tend to shun them. For example, a Baptist comes up and says, "God is great, worship Him with me," to which we reply, "We don't worship with heterodox." True, we are taught not to worship with them, but all to often we follow the letter of the law and not the spirit of it. What I think this rule of worship means is not to agree with heterodox doctrines.

Remember when Peter seperated himself from the gentiles because they didn't strictly adhere to the law? Paul rebuked him.

The point of the thread was love.

God bless all of you!:crossrc:

[Sephania]

I'm sorry you were attacked for trying to promote love and understanding Esron but we see your love, and it is all good. And good to know that there is a heart in TAW of love towards your Jewish brethern.

Thank you for the love of Yeshua you have shown.

:hug:

[Sephania]

[/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font]

I'm sorry to have caused you any offense, but it does not seem that the Messianic Jews were offended. And what's the "(nor is he Orthodox)" comment all about? It's true that I'm not yet officially part of the Orthodox Church, but I know where my heart is and so does God.

What I'm protesting is the way we treat "heterodox" (by the way, how do we know whose truly Orthodox or not, I thought only the Father knew that). We tend to shun them. For example, a Baptist comes up and says, "God is great, worship Him with me," to which we reply, "We don't worship with heterodox." True, we are taught not to worship with them, but all to often we follow the letter of the law and not the spirit of it. What I think this rule of worship means is not to agree with heterodox doctrines.

Remember when Peter seperated himself from the gentiles because they didn't strictly adhere to the law? Paul rebuked him.

The point of the thread was love.

God bless all of you!:crossrc: And Esran you shown out mightely! The L-rDs' heart is gladdened. :hug:

[MariaRegina]

I too was saddened to see the parallel TAW thread closed so soon.

Shalom.

Let us pray for peace in Jerusalem.

[P_G]

-->MOD HAT ON<--

http://www.nehemiah-center.org/kippot.gif

I pray your Shabbat was well! As I see it is dark out I may say this:

I have removed a link back to TAW that contained a thread that was pointedly anti Messianic. I find so far that this particular thread is basically a fellowship thread. If it stays that way the thread will stay open.

If however the thread begins to become a debate thread
or a place where Orhtodox are bashing MJ
or MJ is bashing Orthodox

I Will
Delete posts
Lock the thread
Issue warnings

And it will not matter to me what team your icon says you play on!

So go
Be nice to each other
Excange recipies
stay out of trouble

PG

-->MOD HAT OFF<--

[visionary]

Yes PG

I will be good.

[Marjorie]

Nehemiah,

I know this is off-topic but wow... cool signature! I'd never seen that comic before.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[SaintGeorge]

Don't worry, you have my promise that I will play nice. I have a friend at school who's a Messianic Jew. We often pray and study the Bible together. There's a lot of things we agree on, and a lot that we don't, but our studies together aren't about theology. Mainly, we study materials that direct us on how to show Yeshua's love for one another. And love is one thing we both agree on.

[Orthosdoxa]

[/color][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font]

I'm sorry to have caused you any offense......What I'm protesting is the way we treat "heterodox" ....We tend to shun them.
Esran, I was not offended. No worries. I'm merely pointing out that you are making sweeping judgments against a group of people, the same as you are asking us to reconsider. All I'm doing is asking you to think about that. There will always be a person or two who make rude comments. That does not mean that we Orthodox, on the whole, "shun" the nonOrthodox. On the contrary, you will find the opposite in TAW- as I said, with an exception or two. Most of us welcome with open arms those who wish to learn about our holy Faith, but there will always be one or two bad apples. And I wish that weren't so, but I can't control anyone's behavior except my own. Nor can you.

My husband's patron saint, Moses the Ethiopian, is known for the saying, "Concentrate on your own sins, then you will not see the sins of your brothers."

Good advice for all of us. Especially me.

LK

[Orthosdoxa]

And hey, no one took me up for the Heineken!! :P

[SaintGeorge]

No worries. The universal "you's" that I use only apply to those who are guilty, not the innocent. It's a style of writting that I use to encourage humility amongst myself and my peers. If you look close enough, you'll also notice that I use "we" quite a bit when talking about sin. The point of doing this is to constantly remind myself and my friends that we are responsible in some way for every sin ever committed, and thus we all need to continiously repent and better ourselves.

God bless you Anonykat, especially for the wisdom of St. Moses the Ethiopian that you shared!:crossrc:

[Sephania]

And hey, no one took me up for the Heineken!! :PPlease don't take this as hostile or judgemental, but yesterday was Shabbat, and a bar and a beer would be the last place and drink I would be doing/having on Shabbat and I pretty much think that is the norm for most MJ's that I know (personally anyway). But thanks for the offer, but as you said also there are one or two and those one or two speak loudly enough for us to not feel that the welcome wagon would be waiting for us if you know what I mean.

We are happy to talk here with you though, some say they have been here and not been treated well and I apologize for all for that, but I/we seek to rectify that if given another chance.

Esran, I am happy for you that you have a personal relationship with anothr MJ your age and can see the good things we share, Paulr said if we have everything else in the world but not love we have nothing, but you have the sharing of the love of Yeshua/Jesus and to me that means everything!

:amen: ?

[Oblio]

Please don't take this as hostile or judgemental, but yesterday was Shabbat, and a bar and a beer would be the last place and drink I would be doing/having on Shabbat and I pretty much think that is the norm for most MJ's that I know (personally anyway).


Interesting. I would often enjoy Carmel wine and the local beer (I can't recall the name right now) on Shabbat in Israel. You couldn't smoke or fix a cup of cappacino but there was no prohibition on drinking alcohol or shortage of Jews consuming it.

[Katydid]

Not all Israelis are Torah observant, but what I think Zayit was saying is that many of us don't even get on the computer on Shabbat (a habit I am still having trouble with). And most of us like to spend it as family time and with our families. Of course, that means any other day of the week is fine. Maybe my husband will stop by later.

[Katydid]

OH and NO drinking alcohol is not prohibited on Shabbat, as a matter of fact wine is a very important part of Shabbat.

[Sephania]

Just so any reading aren't aware of this, not every place closes down for Shabbat in Israel. You must have been in a Muslim or Christian area. If you went somewhere and it was a bar that served drinks and it was not gratis, then according to Orthodox ( our ) beliefs you broke the Shabbat and so did the propriator.

Wine is a very important aspect of Shabbat, we use it to Bless the L-rd with and it doesn't have to be Alcoholic either. Kedeem ( Kosher) makes many wonderful non-alcoholic wines.

[Oblio]

Just so any reading aren't aware of this, not every place closes down for Shabbat in Israel. You must have been in a Muslim or Christian area. If you went somewhere and it was a bar that served drinks and it was not gratis, then according to Orthodox ( our ) beliefs you broke the Shabbat and so did the propriator.


It was definately not Muslim or Orthodox Christian, it was in a Hotel, they even had the Shabbat elevator. Definately Jewish, as all hotels must follow Kosher rules in the kitchen. Hint: do not eat Thai food in an Israeli Hotel :sick: , the rules ruin it. Most the beach bars were open during Shabbat too and the beaches are packed, mostly with natives. Tel Aviv resembles most western cities prior to the repeal of blue laws, IOW the stores are closed but all the entertainment and tourist stuff keeps on truckin.

[Sephania]

You were in a hotel? Tel Aviv? That explains it ;) for some reason I thought you were in Jerusalem, because I know the different quarters go by different closings. :)

[Oblio]

Yes, Tel Aviv. I was also in Jerusalem though mostly in the Old City and even then I concentrated my visits in the Christian area as that was why I was there. I stayed away from the Jewish Ultra-Orthodox areas, I didn't want to get stoned or otherwise rebuked. My Jewish guide would rather drive through the Muslim areas instead of the Orthodox sections of town ;)

[Blueskies]

I love that an olive branch has been offered here. Praise Yah for you. I only hope that we can all agree not to try to make each other wrong.

I have few problems with other denominations, and generally will avoid debating the matter with them, but as soon as I mention what I believe, I find that others try to make me wrong. It happens all the time. I can respect that you believe other than I do, I hope that others can respect the same. The truth is that if either of us truly believes the other is in sin in being wrong we ought to be praying for that individual for enlightenment and truth and correction in their wrongdoing, not beating them over the head for not agreeing with us. No?

Anway, thanks for olive branch. I accept.
:wave:

[Talmid HaYarok]

Reading of the thread that was closed down, maybe this old thread of mine could be brought back to further improve relations? (http://www.christianforums.com/t37222-eastern-orthodox-relations-with-messianic-jews.html)

I am a Messianic Jew through and through. Though in worship elements Messianics are closer to protestants, in theology it often seems more similar to Orthodox. Because of this, when I can not be a part of a Messianic congregation I often find myself much more comfortable and at peace with the Lord in an orthodox congregation. Would it be that more of them were comfortable with Messianic Jews! Especially among the Ethiopian Orthodox who's services are conducted in Geez (a semitic language similar to Hebrew), and it is not uncommon to find Ethiopian Messianics in the services as well.

Peace

[Orthosdoxa]

Because of this, when I can not be a part of a Messianic congregation I often find myself much more comfortable and at peace with the Lord in an orthodox congregation. Would it be that more of them were comfortable with Messianic Jews!
I really don't know where this idea came from that the Orthodox have a hit or something out for Messianics. I myself certainly don't, and I do not know even one person who does. There was a debate a while back, people on BOTH sides got nasty, and somehow it turned into this notion that we have a long standing thing about this. It just isn't true. There will always be people who act like posterior-heads, on BOTH sides. To me, all nonOrthodox fall into the same category - being outside the Holy Orthodox Church. Nothing more, nothing less, no hatred, no nothing.

And I do have a question, regarding saying that we are close in theology. That seems to go against everything I've ever been told (by Messianics) about your religion, so I'm a little :scratch: . For one thing, EVERYTHING in Orthodoxy revolves around our Trinitarian understanding of God. It is the basis for our understanding of Christology, salvation, and our very ontological existence. While considering them to be outside of the fullness of the faith, we have no problems calling Catholics and Protestants who do believe in the Trinity our fellow Christians. Yet, I was told by a Messianic that there is much freedom in how one wants to believe in Messianic-ism, including this issue - some do, some don't, and it doesn't matter either way. Is that so? For an Orthodox Christian, there is no "maybe" about this issue. It is everything.

TIA,

LK

[SaintGeorge]

Yes, I too am curious about this. I've actually noticed some similarities between Orthodox and Messianic theology myself. Some of our Traditions (Big T) are the same, such as the veneration of Holy Scripture.

[Talmid HaYarok]

I'm afraid I've been a while from Christian Forums for a good long while and missed whatever happened here more recently. Let me assure you that my experiences with eastern Orthodox members are strictly personal.

If you read what I've written you'll notice I've had a lot of really good experiences in Orthodox congregations. I do feel a lot of the differences are in the symbols we choose, and the words we use to express the same meaning. Our theologies in many cases have become two different languages saying the same thing. We've got problems with translation.

Let me assure you than those who truly follow Yeshua are Trinitarian if they accept the teaching of the Brit Hadashah. It is Rabbinic Jews who are not trinitarian and not Messianic Jews.

To be bluntly honest, I blame a lot of the hostility I have seen on the cultures certain Orthodox churches grew up in. The Orthodox groups that generally I've thought of as being hostile to Messianics, are the ones who's father countries are also known for being anti-semitic. So is it really the teaching of their church? or of their cultures?

I really do wish that both branches of believers could come closer together. Messianic Judaism is the heart of the Bible and the life of the Messiah Yeshua, but has a tendency to wander between the liturgies of Church and Synagogue. Orthodoxy in my opinion is not as close to the heart of the Bible's teaching or the Messiah's (this is not to paint you as heretics, just further from some of the depth of understanding) but do not wander from what they have. To use Esran's example I wish that all Messianic congregations venerated the scriptures as well as most Orthodox congregations, but I also wish that Orthodox congregations understood the Hebrew scriptures and the Jewishness of the Bible better. If the two could be brought closer together, I believe it would be a wonderful thing. This is my opinion, and I know that many of you Messianic and Orthodox will be offended by it... but there it is. My opinion.

[Talmid HaYarok]

I read the most recent thread by Esran just now.

Where is this debate that took place? I'm curious to read about it.

I'm very saddened to learn of this increasing division and hostility between the two, what I little I can see of it appears to be fueled my misconceptions and misunderstanding a lot.

Too bad both groups can't just sit together in a nice Ethiopian Orthodox service... maybe one of Falasha Jews. Before he was taken away by the Romans, Yeshua prayed for unity among his followers. Who even then were falling asleep on the job. Too bad we can't do any better job of it today.

[visionary]

I appreciate the effort you are making to bring us all together for fellowship. I just want to say that it is an honorable thing and worthy of note. You will be known as one of the Lord's peacemakers. May the Lord continue to bless you and keep you in His Ways, and may we all get together at the Lord's supper and fellowship face to face.

Visionary