Please comment on this:

[isshinwhat]

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=2108594&postcount=1

I read this, but have no idea about the validity of the claims. I am hoping someone knows something about the subject where we can correct misunderstandings this work might produce. I cannot believe the Church ever condoned homosexual marriage... Period...

God Bless,

Neal

[OrthodoxTexan]

Boswell's work is plagued by inaccurate translations, unfounded assumptions, twisted and manipulated hagiographies, and a lack of understanding of the fundamentals of Orthodox sacramental services. The Adelphopoiesis service that he claims is a same sex marriage service is a service in which two individuals are joined as spiritual brothers in a sort of spiritual adoption, similar to the bond between a godfather and a godchild, not a marriage. The text of the service is quite explicit in the nature of the spiritual bond being created, and has nothing to do with an approval of a sexual relationship of any kind. His work is revisionist pro-homosexual activism and nothing more. Of course the liberal homosexual activist groups have been eating this stuff up. :rolleyes:

Here is a link (http://www.paratheke.net/stephanos/articles/adelphopoiesis.html) discussing the adelphopoiesis service. And another (http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9411/articles/darling.html) critiquing Boswell's book.

[isshinwhat]

Praise be to God whose Church has always defended his truths. Thank you very much!

Neal

[MariaRegina]

Boswell's work is plagued by inaccurate translations, unfounded assumptions, twisted and manipulated hagiographies, and a lack of understanding of the fundamentals of Orthodox sacramental services. The Adelphopoiesis service that he claims is a same sex marriage service is a service in which two individuals are joined as spiritual brothers in a sort of spiritual adoption, similar to the bond between a godfather and a godchild, not a marriage. The text of the service is quite explicit in the nature of the spiritual bond being created, and has nothing to do with an approval of a sexual relationship of any kind. His work is revisionist pro-homosexual activism and nothing more. Of course the liberal homosexual activist groups have been eating this stuff up. :rolleyes:

Here is a link (http://www.paratheke.net/stephanos/articles/adelphopoiesis.html) discussing the adelphopoiesis service. And another (http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9411/articles/darling.html) critiquing Boswell's book.


Thank you for clarifying this issue!

[Orthosdoxa]

When I was first exploring Orthodoxy, I too encountered this stuff and was very, very disturbed by it. I sent an email to an Orthodox fellow I'd met on-line, begging for some kind of explanation. He replied with a reprint of a post written by his bishop, His Grace Tikhon, who sometimes uses internet chat boards. Someone had started a thread about this very issue, and insisted that the Church has always sanctioned gay marriage. Well, +Tikhon put a stop to that right away, in no uncertain terms. It was howlingly funny!!! His Graces pulls absolutely no punches!! And what he said really put my mind at ease. I'll try to procure a copy again and throw it up here.

[Matrona]

He replied with a reprint of a post written by his bishop, His Grace Tikhon, who sometimes uses internet chat boards. Someone had started a thread about this very issue, and insisted that the Church has always sanctioned gay marriage. Well, +Tikhon put a stop to that right away, in no uncertain terms. It was howlingly funny!!! His Graces pulls absolutely no punches!! And what he said really put my mind at ease. I'll try to procure a copy again and throw it up here.That sounds awesome, I hope you do find it so that we can see it, too.

That's sweet that His Grace uses internet chat boards--and how lucky must people be to have a bishop around! Most of the Orthodox around me are Luddites in this regard. :) But I think the internet is a wonderful way to reach others with the gospel. The wonderful experiences I've had on the 'net outweigh the bad by far.

[OrthodoxTexan]

I would be interested in reading his response as well Anonykat.

[Orthosdoxa]

FOUND IT!!!

The blue is my friend Steve's opener for explaining about this post, with a snippet from the post His Grace was responding to.... Gray is the other dude, and the bishop's words are in green.

Enjoy!!

OK -- here are some pieces from a post in another (nasty!) group from several months ago... they were in plain text email, so any highlights are mine. The post is from Bishop TIKHON, in discussions regarding Orthodox and Episcopalian ideas on "gay marriages". He is Simeon's and my bishop.... Hope it soothes your fears.... But fair warning: Bishop TIKHON is often known for being, uh, not politically correct ;)
========================================
At 01:12 AM 9/23/2001 -0400, Doctor Bob Holderer wrote:
> And if we both want to be perfectly honest, we also have to admit that
> the same
>exists within the Orthodox Church, both canonical and not-so-canonical.
>I have heard through reliable reports that Rites of Brotherhood have been
>performed within Orthodox churches in Albania, Finland, and other countries
>within the Eastern Block.

I would like to track that down. First, what is meant by "reliable reports?" I consider the use of a term like "reliable reports" in any argumentative or persuasive message to be problematic and that it should be eschewed. In fact, the use of "reliable reports" sounds like the beginning of a political leak, not something one would want to rely on in order to be "perfectly honest," if that's what "we both" (Doctor Bob and Tim) want.

If such unsubstantiated rumors as of the performance of "Rites of Brotherhood" arose, did these arise in connection with someone trying to do them and being canonically corrected by his Bishop? (There I spoke only of the "reliable reports" alleging such about the canonical Orthodox Church of which Doctor Bob wrote.) Or, if such unsubstantiated rumors as the performance of "Rites of Brotherhood" arose, did these arise in connection with determining that a Church was UNcanonical? (There I speak only of the "reliable reports" alleging such about an uncanonical Orthodox Church of which Doctor Bob wrote.) I also believe that "reliable" reports of such are a mighty fragile hook on which to hang any making of analogies between PECUSA history and present-day life of the (Orthodox) Church. Reaching is the word, I should say.

I hope that Doctor Bob has not bought into the "discovery" by Doctor Boswell that the Office of Adopting of a Brother was once an office of homosexual marriage!

The Prayers at the Adoption of a Child, still found in most Trebniks/Euchologia, I believe, and originally most often used not for humanitarian but for dynastic purposes and complications around the inheritance of money, was once extended and formalized (for the same purposes) to adoption of brothers, but the practice was so abused (that is, misused financially) that it was removed from most Trebniks/Euchologia, but not, I believe, from the editions published by the Serbian Church until very late. Doctor Boswell in the process elsewhere noted whereby feminists "research" the "Gospels" of Thomas and/or Mary to find traditions of feminism wrongfully extirpated from Church life, has done homosexuality the "favor" of "discovering" this obsolete rite for the adoption of a brother and going "Aha, here's a tradition of legalized homosexual marriage wrongfully extirpated from Church life!"

Does Doctor Holder mean to tell us that homosexual marriage rites (inspired by the theories of Doctor Boswell) "have been performed in Albania, Finland, and other countries within the 'Eastern Block?" (And just when did Finland join the "Eastern bloc?") If so, I'd like to know in just what canonical Orthodox Church(es) these rites took place. If Doctor Holderer thinks such a "wave" is moving across the sea of Orthodox life in canonical Orthodoxy, there would be no reason not to publicize the details, the proof, etc., save that someone like me might launch a public protest/outcry or that such events were secret and taken in knowing violation of the morality of those Churches.

If some flake somewhere has committed some foolishness in an Orthodox Church, I am not shocked and I don't believe that anyone has ever claimed that the Orthodox Church is free of flakes. There is a big difference between having some flakes as members and having divorced lesbians as Bishops, or men who vaunt their lack of belief in the Resurrection of Christ and Ever-Virginity of the Theotokos. The Orthodox Church is FREE of the latter sort of "wave". The PECUSA is not. It's awash in such ethical and canonical chaos!

So when Doctor Holderer wrote this: "While I respect your views concerning the Episcopal Church, I think that you are falling into the trap of looking at the Church as if they are all the Borg. Yes, there are people who are liberal and want the church to be affirming and accepting. Yet, there are also streams and eddies within the Episcopal Church which are also very traditional. And if we both want to be perfectly honest, we also have to admit that the same exists within the Orthodox Church, both canonical and not-so-canonical," I could only reply, "Yeah, in a cocked hat!" I think that "Episcopal Church" is not so much "the Borg" as it is a kind of lingering trace of a Church whose compliance with the law of inertia is being confused with elan vital.

And what did Doctor Holderer mean by affirming that there are very traditional streams and eddies ****also****** within the Orthodox Church? It seems to me that the whole river, the whole sea, of Orthodoxy is traditional, not just assorted (and singular) streams and eddies!!!!

I am "liberal and want the church (I would have said, rather, that I believe the Church to already BE) affirming and accepting", but not affirming and accepting of homosexual marriage, abortion, Communion of the heterodox, divorce, and so on. We are all supposed to be liberal givers. We are all supposed to be affirming and accepting of the Creed, the Ecumenical Councils, the Ten Commandments, the Canons, etc. We are not supposed to liberal with our sinning and "affirming and accepting" of sin!

Loose talk sinks ships!!!!

Love,
+B.T.


**************************************
haha.... "in a cocked hat"!!! That's my new favorite phrase...

[Eusebios]

The Adelphopoiesis service that he claims is a same sex marriage service is a service in which two individuals are joined as spiritual brothers in a sort of spiritual adoption, similar to the bond between a godfather and a godchild, not a marriage. The text of the service is quite explicit in the nature of the spiritual bond being created, and has nothing to do with an approval of a sexual relationship of any kind. :rolleyes:

Here is a link (http://www.paratheke.net/stephanos/articles/adelphopoiesis.html) discussing the adelphopoiesis service. And another (http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9411/articles/darling.html) critiquing Boswell's book.
OT,
Thanks for these excellent sources. I haven't gotten around to the second link yet, the first one is too good!
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Matrona]

I am "liberal and want the church (I would have said, rather, that I believe the Church to already BE) affirming and accepting", but not affirming and accepting of homosexual marriage, abortion, Communion of the heterodox, divorce, and so on. We are all supposed to be liberal givers. We are all supposed to be affirming and accepting of the Creed, the Ecumenical Councils, the Ten Commandments, the Canons, etc. We are not supposed to liberal with our sinning and "affirming and accepting" of sin!

Loose talk sinks ships!!!!

Love,
+B.T.:clap: :clap: :clap: That is awesome! His flock is so lucky to have such a wise (and friendly) shepherd!

I've got another one, from another Orthodox bishop. I did not see this myself first hand, but His Grace is in a jurisdiction with a presence in the United States. I know who it is but I will protect the innocent and not say who it is exactly in public, though some of you might know about this, I don't know. This bishop was apparently confronted by an Episcopal hierarch at some sort of conference, and the Episcopal hierarch accused the Orthodox bishop of sheep-stealing from the Episcopal church. The bishop replied: "Sheep-stealing? We are not stealing. Your people come to us running... screaming... 'Get us away from those f*gg*ts!'"

[OrthodoxTexan]

If some flake somewhere has committed some foolishness in an Orthodox Church, I am not shocked and I don't believe that anyone has ever claimed that the Orthodox Church is free of flakes. There is a big difference between having some flakes as members and having divorced lesbians as Bishops, or men who vaunt their lack of belief in the Resurrection of Christ and Ever-Virginity of the Theotokos.hehe...

Thanks anonykat

[OrthodoxTexan]

OT,
Thanks for these excellent sources. I haven't gotten around to the second link yet, the first one is too good!
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:
You're very welcome Eusebios. Read the second one when you get a chance. I think it is a good review of Boswell's work written by an early Christian scholar.

[InnerPhyre]

I knew that whole thing couldn't be right when I read it.