What message are we giving to the world?

[ahab]

I think we need to face some realities on our hot topic.
Some of the dictionary definitions of homophobia are like this one:
The term homophobia means fear or hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against people who are homosexual It is sometimes used to mean any sort of opposition to same-sex romance or sexual activity, though this opposition may more accurately be called anti-gay bias.



Well even most affrming gay and lesbian Christians believe the scripures do talk about specific same-sex sex in cultic prostitution or temple worship. Thats still any sort of opposition. So surely one would expect many Christians to be homophobic according to the definitions that say, 'any sort of opposition', wouldn’t one?

[pmcleanj]

I think we need to face some realities on our hot topic.
Some of the dictionary definitions of homophobia are like this one:
The term homophobia means fear or hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against people who are homosexual It is sometimes used to mean any sort of opposition to same-sex romance or sexual activity, though this opposition may more accurately be called anti-gay bias.



Well even most affrming gay and lesbian Christians believe the scripures do talk about specific same-sex sex in cultic prostitution or temple worship. Thats still any sort of opposition. So surely one would expect many Christians to be homophobic according to the definitions that say, 'any sort of opposition', wouldn’t one?
Prohibited topic introduced, once again, by the same person who keeps trying to turn our forum into the homosexuality debate board.

[ahab]

Hi Pmcleanj





Prohibited topic introduced, once again, by the same person who keeps trying to turn our forum into the homosexuality debate board.

I’m not sure, is it prohibited?, I just looked at the rules again. I didn’t start the other 3 related threads. So I cant really be accused of turning our forum area into such a board. Its just that our church is at the forefront of this topic discussion for UK people as it’s the ‘state’ church, so this forum area would be where associated debates occur.

Anyway, I saw a secular television debate yesterday where views that ‘homosexuality is a sin’ were thought to be unacceptable and religious. It seems none of us as Christians can totally avoid the label homophobic.

[seebs]

I think the key is that the opposition in such cases is not to "same-sex sexual activity" but to some other thing.

If I am opposed to the LAPD beating up Rodney King, I am not expressing "opposition to police actions"; the unqualified phrase would be a broader objection than I have.

[chalice_thunder]

Anyone else tired (very tired) of making sexuality the central issue of the Anglican Communion or any other part of the Christian faith?

If so - please say "Aye"

[PaladinValer]

Aye aye aye

[gtsecc]

Anyone else tired (very tired) of making sexuality the central issue of the Anglican Communion or any other part of the Christian faith?

If so - please say "Aye"Yes and no.
Thank God we are discussing the issue.
Why isn't everyone else?

[RobNJ]

Aye

[TomUK]

Anyone else tired (very tired) of making sexuality the central issue of the Anglican Communion or any other part of the Christian faith?

If so - please say "Aye"

Aye, and the previous thread i started wasn't conerned with homesexualtiy- rather whether the ECUSA should apologise, which though a realted topic is not the same. Discussions on homosexuality are quite clearly against the rules that all members sign up to, and though the staff do make decisions on a thread by thread by basis, blatant discussions on the issue are not allowed.

[chalice_thunder]

Aye, and the previous thread i started wasn't conerned with homesexualtiy- rather whether the ECUSA should apologise, which though a realted topic is not the same. Discussions on homosexuality are quite clearly against the rules that all members sign up to, and though the staff do make decisions on a thread by thread by basis, blatant discussions on the issue are not allowed.

Understood - I wasn't making any accusations. I am just personally sick to death of being argued over whether I am a "whole" member of the church or not. Which is why I posed the question: "Is anyone else tired...?"

[TomUK]

Understood - I wasn't making any accusations. I am just personally sick to death of being argued over whether I am a "whole" member of the church or not. Which is why I posed the question: "Is anyone else tired...?"

I didn't take it that way it at all- and am all for telling people that homosuxality isn't the only issue anlgicans face, and am more than happy to talk about something totally different. So, the weather :thumbsup:

[chalice_thunder]

Drippy, cloudy, misty here in Seattle. The dark months are upon us. :help:

[TomUK]

Drippy, cloudy, misty here in Seattle. The dark months are upon us. :help:

:prayer:

(bare in mind though, i live in england ;) )

[chalice_thunder]

:prayer:

(bare in mind though, i live in england ;) )

Ah - thou knowest well!

[Bingley]

Unbearably hot and humid during the day, turning to black clouds in the late afternoon, but no actual rain.

[CSMR]

Anyone else tired (very tired) of making sexuality the central issue of the Anglican Communion or any other part of the Christian faith?
Morality is a central issue - not the only one. Within morality who can say what is central? We are in a position where a part of the church has made a stand against a part of morality, and that is why the issue has attained a greater imporatance than it has in itself. This is quite understandable. Who - if I may put it this way -, in the middle of a battle, would lose interest because in the context of the war the battle is only one battle?

[chalice_thunder]

Morality is a central issue - not the only one. Within morality who can say what is central? We are in a position where a part of the church has made a stand against a part of morality, and that is why the issue has attained a greater imporatance than it has in itself. This is quite understandable. Who - if I may put it this way -, in the middle of a battle, would lose interest because in the context of the war the battle is only one battle?

You make a good argument...though I wasn't talking about losing interest. I was just making a point: I am tired of the fact that the Anglican Communion, in its councils, actively works to keep people like me on the margin.

Make no doubt about it - the "war" is not over. I choose to think of it as a journey though - I don't like the war image, even though there are plenty of battles to go through.

Now - in context of the OP - we actually MIGHT be sending a second message to the world that is good...(but the media won't report it):
The message is that each branch of the communion is living in its own context. We are dealing with much social change/progress in North America; much of the African church must deal with militant Islam, AIDS, desperate poverty and civil war - I think Windsor's main call (as I said, the media won't get the subtlety) is for us to work hard at seeing the situation of sister branches of the communion.

[Polycarp1]

Well, it's my opinion that we are sending the right message to the world -- that God's people, following His commandment, welcome and extend Christian love to all who wish to come.

Unfortunately, I cannot say that on this board, with regard to this topic, without a cite, so I refer you to the hymn quoted in Chalice Thunder's signature, which was 100 years old when "Gay Liberation" was first mentioned, as my cite.

[ahab]

As I pointed out, the issue continues unabated outside the church, whilst in the church particularly the Anglican Communion, it is a hot topic of discussion. The issue in My Christian life 24/7 barely gets a mention people don’t need to know about it, they need to know Jesus. However, one usually posts on the threads one is interested in, so I take it there is still some interest, all be it some trying to prevent the discussion, until.Make no doubt about it - the "war" is not over. I choose to think of it as a journey though - I don't like the war image, even though there are plenty of battles to go through.I am tired of the fact that the Anglican Communion, in its councils, actively works to keep people like me on the margin.Surely Jesus never wanted anyone on the margins, where does it say that in scripture?is for us to work hard at seeing the situation of sister branches of the communionI think that a moratorium to adhere to Lambeth 1.10 is the line in the sand. And so it should be.

[ahab]

Hi Polycarp1

Well, it's my opinion that we are sending the right message to the world -- that God's people, following His commandment, welcome and extend Christian love to all who wish to come.Christ’s message has and always will be that all are invited. Christ’s message was and always will be that we come to follow Him and live for Him. The idea that people can come on their terms isn’t in the gospel, many turned away.
I see in your signature you quoted Paul "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1) - Paul
AMEN!
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders " -Paul
I believe both, and to receive this freedom I continue to confess and repent from idolatry and adultery and sexual immorality
We recieve the forgiveness when we repent and bleive

[chalice_thunder]

As I pointed out, the issue continues unabated outside the church, whilst in the church particularly the Anglican Communion, it is a hot topic of discussion. The issue in My Christian life 24/7 barely gets a mention people don’t need to know about it, they need to know Jesus. However, one usually posts on the threads one is interested in, so I take it there is still some interest, all be it some trying to prevent the discussion, until.Surely Jesus never wanted anyone on the margins, where does it say that in scripture?I think that a moratorium to adhere to Lambeth 1.10 is the line in the sand. And so it should be.

Hmmm. I must have failed to communicate my point properly. Oh well.

As far as Lambeth 1.10 is concerned - it is NOT a binding document in the communion.

[PaladinValer]

What Ahab doesn't seem to understand about Anglicanism is that Lambeth is not authoritative throughout the entire Church. Each province has a choice to accept each of its decisions, and, quite frankly, I'm not even sure a majority of the provinces hold to every single decision made at Lambeth. Heck, I'm not even sure more than just 2 or 3 do!

It's time that folks learn the fact that the Anglican Communion is an autocephalous Church. We are not like the Vatican Catholic Church in our structure but, rather, more like the Eastern Orthodox Church. I wish you, Ahab, would stop suggesting and implying that Lambeth decisions are completely authoritative; they are not. They are suggestions.

[pmcleanj]

As I pointed out, the issue continues unabated outside the church, whilst in the church particularly the Anglican Communion, it is a hot topic of discussion. The issue in My Christian life 24/7 barely gets a mention people don’t need to know about it, they need to know Jesus. However, one usually posts on the threads one is interested in, so I take it there is still some interest, all be it some trying to prevent the discussion, until.Surely Jesus never wanted anyone on the margins, where does it say that in scripture?I think that a moratorium to adhere to Lambeth 1.10 is the line in the sand. And so it should be.
Poster still trying to force a debate on homosexuality in a forum where that debate is prohibited -- but using the ploy of referring to it obliquely and not using the word "homosexuality".

[UberLutheran]

Yes and no.
Thank God we are discussing the issue.
Why isn't everyone else?

My parish used this text, as suggested by the ELCA, as the basis for a parish discussion on gays and lesbians -- and it actually brought us all together!

It's not an easy read, and there is (that dreaded word!) homework and preparation -- but it's WELL worth the effort put into it!

[CSMR]

It is not desirable to all to journey together. Within the church - journeying together is a fine thing - perhaps the truth will be spread within the church if it is together and come out through argument and discussion. But if the Church has to stand for something to the world, and one side wants a gospel of inclusivity and tolerance, and the other side a gospel of the law and mercy of God, I do not see how the church can be called a single church.

[ahab]

Hi Chalice_thunder.
Hmmm. I must have failed to communicate my point properly. Oh well. As far as Lambeth 1.10 is concerned - it is NOT a binding document in the communion. It seems the rest of the communion, the Lambeth commission and the Windsor report have failed to get through to you.
Lambeth 1.10 is the line in the sand for the majority who will cease to have anything to do with you if you decide breach of Lambeth 1.10 and the unity of the communion is worth less than same-sex sex.

Hi PaladinValer,
What Ahab doesn't seem to understand about Anglicanism is that Lambeth is not authoritative throughout the entire Church. What you fail to understand is that was the case but was going to split the communion, what the Windsor Report has identified is that unity depends on Lambeth 1.10

Hi Pmcleanj
Poster still trying to force a debate on homosexuality in a forum where that debate is prohibited -- but using the ploy of referring to it obliquely and not using the word "homosexuality".Wrong... he is just debating the issue being forced by those who are disobedient to Lambeth 1.10.
Wrong... Homosexual related debates are not prohibited here as I said

Hi CSMR
Amen to that

[ahab]

This is how I see the situation with Bishop Griswold, Robinson and co. who doesn’t believe the NT writers knew about homosexuality.
Now Paul frequently urges believers not to quarrel, for example in his letters to Timothy.
All scripture is says is valuable for teaching "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." 2 Tim 4:2
"Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. " Titus 3
Paul was the apostle primarily to the gentiles. The apostles to the Jews would hardly be as likely to talk about the sexual immorality of homosexual acts as the Jews knew that was detestable to God. Now the revelation Paul received and the gospel he preached was from Jesus.
"And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher." As to marriage and husband and wife and false teachers in Titus 1 "They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach...... Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith"Now Paul warns against anyone, even and Angel, and that includes Bishop Griswold and co. who preaches a different gospel to the one given to Paul by Jesus. Gal 1
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!Now Paul says "I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." What does Bishop Griswold know that Jesus doesn’t.
Now Paul says do not be deceived "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders "
"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your body. "
Now here is the issue. 1 Cor 5:6 "Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--..."I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
So we cant judge, but we should expel a sexually immoral person who calls himself a brother and persists in promoting perversion

[PaladinValer]

No, the Windsor report said nothing of the like. In fact, the report told those ultra-conservative primates in Africa to butt out of affairs of another province.

And yes, the debate on non-heterosexual topics in terms of morality is prohibited by CF rules. Furthermore, I think I can speak for a majority here that we are tired of people bringing up this one particular topic to our forum due to +Robinson. Please quit it now!

[ahab]

Hi PaladiValer,

The Windsor report was not set up to discuss homosexuality but recognised that Lambeth 1.10 was the threat to unity, thats why it recommends a moratorium to adhere to it.
Akinola is right and the ECUSA needs to comply or the sexually immoral and their false gospel need to be expelled in accorsdance with the true gospel.

I am not going to be silenced by a false claim of a few who dont like the truth. I have quoted the gospel as evidence please respond to it or kindly keep quiet.

[AveMaria]

Ahab, are you an Anglican? I notice you have the generic Christian cross, and was wondering if you had a denominational affiliation or not.

[PaladinValer]

Abah, quit beating around the bush. All your posts recently is to complain about homosexuality in my ECUSA province. This is not the place for it, period. It is a violation of CF rules, period.

Secondly, for a person who "claims" to be Anglican, you seem to have a seriously misunderstood knowledge of the Lambeth Councils and of the hierarchy of the Anglican Communion. We have tried to tell you the facts, yet you continue to say otherwise. Whether you like it or not, you are wrong because the Anglican Communion is autocephalous and that the Lambeth Councils are guidelines that have no real power, period.

[ahab]

Hi AveMaria, :)

I was baptised, confirmed and married in Anglican churches, I am a member of an Anglican church, in a lay leadership position and my fellowship is with Anglicans and my pastor, whose authority I am under, is Anglican.
We are also in full accord with the teaching of the Anglican Communion on Lambeth 1.10, more than some here I notice

However thank you for your question :thumbsup:

[ahab]

Hi PaladinValer,

You are correct in that the Windsor report may have no power but the question is, if we want to be faithful to the only true gospel (Gal 1) then should we expel those sexually immoral homosexual offenders (1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim, Rom 1) who call themselves brothers as Paul tells us to (1 Cor 5)?
Thats part of the question what message are we giving to the world.

[NewToLife]

It's time that folks learn the fact that the Anglican Communion is an autocephalous Church. We are not like the Vatican Catholic Church in our structure but, rather, more like the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Just a correction here, Anglicanism is NOT like Orthodoxy in this respect, Orthodox churches are not free to pick 'n' mix what we believe in the way that you imply, we are bound by the first seven ecumenical councils and by the Tradition of the Church itself.

[PaladinValer]

What does autocephalously have to do with "picking and choosing?" It deals with hierarchy.

[Inside Edge]

Valer,

I think you need to add that smiley banging his head on a brick wall! :)

[PaladinValer]

Oh trust me; I've been doing that a lot anyway -_-

[ahab]

The church belongs to Christ. However whatever the Anglican communion is it seems (1 Peter 4) that when Peter writes that love covers a multitude of sins he has already established that we are already done with sin, and the believer "As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry."
Live according to the Spirit Pater says. Paul often writes in his letters that although we should not quarrel, he also writes when it comes to sexual immorality we should not even eat with the sexually immoral who call themselves brothers, and should expel them. This is the true gospel that Paul has given us as in 1 Cor 5, so is the Windsor report actually right to look for a way forward?

[Polycarp1]

Lambeth 1.10 is the line in the sand for the majority who will cease to have anything to do with you if you decide breach of Lambeth 1.10 and the unity of the communion is worth less than same-sex sex.
Just for the record, and it will be the last thing I say on the subject, the issue is not what you, contrary to the explicit rules of this board, have been trying to make it.

The issue is whether we will continue to show Christian love and fellowship to a group of people whom He has called to Himself whose lives happen not to suit some people's moral codes. And it's explicitly our bounden duty as followers of Christ to do what He commanded.

Now, with all due respect, shut up about this. What you're doing is violating about half the rules of CF generally and the specific rules of this forum, and it's creating dissention. You have a right to your opinion, even if you disagree vehemently with mine. You do not have the right to violate this board's rules by expressing it in ways contrary to the rules.

[ahab]

Hi Polycarp1

I am sorry if I ahve offended you and I apologise if I have.
The Windsor report nevertheless asks for a moratorium on Lambeth 1.10 as Lambeth 1.10, Lmabeth 1.10 is for the majority the line in the sand, I just happen to be in agreement with the majority and the agreed standard of teaching in the Anglican communion :)
The issue isn't about Christian love towards one another which we are to show at all times to our neighbour friend and enemy, but to God who calls us to love Him first. If we want to discuss what Christain love is, telling a group of people whom God has called to be Holy, that their own moral codes can be good enough is neither loving to them or to God. I have shown that scripture 1 Cor 5, indicates perhaps Christians should not be in communion with the sexually immoral who call themselves brothers, and hence the Windsor report.
I cant help the word of God. I didnt like it but many turn away and rejected Jesus when he said things they didnt like.
Futhermore I believe the group you are talking about are divided between those who are celibate and ex-homosexual and those practicing so we need to have a balance, and receive the revelation from the one who IS love, God.

Now, I am genuinely interested to see what people's opinions are on these scriptures and I couldnt care less about being told to shut up, I just don't want the thread closed.

May te peace of God be with you. :)

[gtsecc]

Luke 18:9

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Ahab and the other a homosexual. The Ahab stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this homosexual. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' But the homosexual, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

[CSMR]

That is a completely unjustified accusation. If you want to argue, how about some arguments rather than personal insults? If you want to play childish games, we can look through scripture and substitute gtsecc for Satan; what a laugh!

[gtsecc]

It is simply the lectionary reading the Sunday after the Eames Report came out. There are no coincidences are there?

[chalice_thunder]

It is simply the lectionary reading the Sunday after the Eames Report came out. There are no coincidences are there?


I think it was a very APT parable you gave us, gtsecc...and those of us who were in church on Sunday got the full weight of your commentary...

Well done! :clap:

[CSMR]

Why don't we discuss the meaning of the lectionary reading, which is indeed relevant to the thread? But before you do so you should learn some manners and apologise to ahab for a completely unjustified accusation. If you want to justify your accusation that's another matter. Taking the scriptures lightly in order to make a personal insult is not appropriate behaviour.

[AveMaria]

So, back to the lectionary reading from Proper 25. Proof that God has an interesting sense of humor, don't you think?

[NewToLife]

What does autocephalously have to do with "picking and choosing?" It deals with hierarchy.


Here's your previous post in full the linkage to my eyes is implied if not explicitly stated, if you didnt intend this then I have simply misread you and apologise.

What Ahab doesn't seem to understand about Anglicanism is that Lambeth is not authoritative throughout the entire Church. Each province has a choice to accept each of its decisions, and, quite frankly, I'm not even sure a majority of the provinces hold to every single decision made at Lambeth. Heck, I'm not even sure more than just 2 or 3 do!

It's time that folks learn the fact that the Anglican Communion is an autocephalous Church. We are not like the Vatican Catholic Church in our structure but, rather, more like the Eastern Orthodox Church. I wish you, Ahab, would stop suggesting and implying that Lambeth decisions are completely authoritative; they are not. They are suggestions.

[gtsecc]

Here is word coming from the recently freed...



We come to Christ, humbled and broken, when our sins are so deep that we cry out to the Lord. He takes us and remakes us...



Those that are repenting of their ways and earnestly seeking Christ will find Him. Those that glorify their "condition" and seek to force acceptance in the church and in society will not see the kingdom of our Lord.



Should those that glorify their sexuality be allowed to stay in the church? No. They are not repentent.



Should we show them kindness and love. Of course. They are your sons and daughters who were misled by the biggest lies ever - that there is no hope, no cure, it's natural, it's genetic. I used to believe that, but Jesus showed me otherwise.



If you have a story on a person who was gay and now isn't, I would love to hear it. Figure out what forum is the appropriate place, and tell us your story. I believe God can do miracles, but I am skeptical that He does so for people's orientation.

[Lael_Rapier]

If you have a story on a person who was gay and now isn't, I would love to hear it. Figure out what forum is the appropriate place, and tell us your story. I believe God can do miracles, but I am skeptical that He does so for people's orientation.


As you wish. :)

The Testimony (http://www.christianforums.com/t904519-victory-is-within-reach.html)

[julian the apostate]

GTESCC!!!!!!!!!!

thanks
(oh , yeah, thank to you as well Lord Christ)

no knock against you ahab,, at all, i would have liked the story just as much if he had inserted julian the apostate, and it believe me, would have lost none of its meaning
i can see myself in either one of those characters

[gtsecc]

Ahab,
I should not have singled you out.

Peace,
Glen

[ps139]

for staff review

[ps139]

I'm reopening this thread and want this to serve as a reminder to our non-Anglican guests (myself included) that non-Anglicans are only allowed to ask questions and make fellowship posts. Disregard of these rules will necessitate warnings.

[TammyG]

Aye-the Church should not be about your sexual orientation but your belief and faith in God