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CEV
22nd October 2004, 12:43 AM
I'd like for you all to read it and make any suggestions before I send it. Also be critical of the Sola Scriptura parts; I am kind of tired right now and am unsure if I was accurate. I also used some parts from others' posts here on CF; I hope no one minds.

Dear Pastor,

I have been sitting in your church for some time and have been listening to your messages on Sundays. I know that you are a man who loves the Lord and is eager to lead others to Him, and I respect that deeply. However, I do have a few questions to ask you about certain doctrinal issues that you stand very firmly upon.

Before I continue further, I want you to please respect my privacy and not use this email in any sermon illustrations; I know you like to use those, and often they are quite funny and enjoyable. But if you used this email, I would only be humiliated. For now, I wish to keep my identity hidden, due to the possibly controversial content of this message.

Now, there are three things I wish to discuss in this email. I know that you believe that the King James Version of the Bible is the perfect, inerrant Word of God, and that it has no contradictions or errors in it. In fact, a few weeks ago you said that even if one word was untrue, or if there was one contradiction, you would discard the Bible altogether. From this and other statements you have made, I gather that you are what is called a “Biblical literalist.” Are you familiar with that term, and with “liberal theology” as well?

I would like to point out to you that no translation of the Bible today is completely without error, not even the King James. The original Scriptures, however, were perfect and without error. I don’t know whether or not you believe there can be copying errors, but I’d like to show you an error in copying:

II Kings 8:
26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

II Chronicles 22:
2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

There are also similar errors in copying in the King James Version when ages are mentioned. I don’t know if you knew about these or not.

If you did know about these, I feel that you should warn the congregation about them. When I first spotted the age discrepancy above I was caught off-guard and was a little upset that they were there. Such things as these can lead to a crisis of the faith.

So, back to Biblical literalism. I have been researching the many different denominations of the Christian faith, and have discovered that not all Christians are Biblical literalists, as I used to think. These non-literalists have a different view of the Bible. They think that not all the Bible was dictated to them by God, but that prophecy was. For the non-prophetic parts, they believe that the writers of the Bible were inspired to write what they wrote, but that inspiration does not mean the same thing as dictation. They reject the belief in Sola Scriptura.

Sola Scriptura is one way to read the Bible and interpret it; I believe it is a part of the doctrine taught in this church. But it was not invented till recently in history. Sola Scriptura, in a nutshell, is the belief that “if it isn't in the Bible, it isn't Truth.” Sola Scriptura also includes Biblical literalism, and that inspiration means dictation.

The trouble I have with Sola Scriptura is that it assumes literalism, and I have some problems with literalism. But I shall wait until the next email to address that topic. One question, however: what would you say to someone who suggested that Genesis was never intended to be taken as a literal story of how God created, but rather that it was an allegory?

This is all I have for now. I look forward to your reply. I know you are busy, and I appreciate your time in reading my email. Thank you.

julian the apostate
22nd October 2004, 08:04 AM
once after mass, back in my roman days,

in the bishop's monthly newsletter, one of the topics was fundamentalist christians.

The article said that many fundamentalists were very intelligent , unlike the stereotype.

It also said that if somehow you were to talk someone out of fundamentalism you would have on your hands not a mainline protestant but in all probability an atheist

A pentecostal pastor once told me that fundamentalists try to make the bible the 4th member of the trinity

Why do you want to write this poor guy a letter instead of just going to another church?

I have struggled against fundamentalism personally for many years, it is basically a form of legalistic thinking, that is not found in any particular church,
but in my own heart

seebs
22nd October 2004, 09:27 AM
I hope this isn't understood to be "debating", but:

Sola Scriptura does not require literalism. It requires a belief that the Bible is inerrant in matters of faith and morals. Many people accept Sola Scriptura without the kind of word-for-word inspiration your pastor apparently presumes.

Radagast
22nd October 2004, 09:34 AM
... and have discovered that not all Christians are Biblical literalists, as I used to think. These non-literalists have a different view of the Bible. They think that not all the Bible was dictated to them by God, but that prophecy was. For the non-prophetic parts, they believe that the writers of the Bible were inspired to write what they wrote, but that inspiration does not mean the same thing as dictation. They reject the belief in Sola Scriptura ... Sola Scriptura is one way to read the Bible and interpret it; I believe it is a part of the doctrine taught in this church. But it was not invented till recently in history. Sola Scriptura, in a nutshell, is the belief that “if it isn't in the Bible, it isn't Truth.” Sola Scriptura also includes Biblical literalism, and that inspiration means dictation ... The trouble I have with Sola Scriptura is that it assumes literalism, and I have some problems with literalism ...
CEV, I wish you well, and I hope you are doing the right thing with this letter (some of the wording worries me, but others have given you very good feedback on that).

It seems you have found a new spiritual home, and I am very glad of that.

And I would encourage you to read more Church history!

Regarding "Sola Scriptura" -- the phrase was, I think, first used by Martin Luther 500 years ago. It really meant that the Bible took precedence over Tradition (Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox would still give Tradition equal weight, I think).

Luther's idea of "Sola Scriptura" was really a reaction against bad practices in the Church of his day, so that he wanted to go back to something that was reliable (the Bible). He was never totally consistent, in that he accepted at least one key part of early tradition: the decision by the early Church on the Canon of the New Testament.

"Sola Scriptura" does not require a particular interpretation of the Bible (such as literalism or inspiration-means-dictation): it just means that an argument based on the Bible is decisive.

Tradition in contrast says (more or less) that things not in the Bible can be OK if the Church has been constantly doing them for 2000 years.

Hope this helps,

-- Radagast

gtsecc
22nd October 2004, 10:31 AM
I do not think Anglicans give the Bible equal weight to Tradition. However, as you pointed out, it is Tradition that Canonized the Bible. Unless I am missunderstanding something. I also believe Sola Scriptura means different things to different folks, and is used to mean somoething differnt now than ML intended. Someone here will clarify it in a few posts.

CSMR
22nd October 2004, 11:31 PM
(Luther: "What a splendid argument! I approve Scripture. Therefore I am superior to Scripture. The church approves Christian faith and doctrine. Therefore the church is superior to them.")

As seebs said sola-scripture is not literalism. And literalism has more than one meaning. Luther and Tyndale in translating the bible went for what they called the literal sense, but this is different from literal tendencies now in some places which treat everything as simple and empirical.
Also non-literalism is not liberalism: liberalism theologicaly is basically saying Christian life is about trying to be a nicer sort of chap. Well, that will be debated. At any rate, it's a theology rather than an interpretive position.

Tyndale:
For Origen and the doctors of his time drew all the Scripture unto allegories; whose example that came after followed so long, till they at last forgot the order and process of the text, supposing that the Scripture served but to feign allegories upon; make descant upon plain song. Then came our sophisters with their anagogical and chopological sense, and with an antitheme of half an inch, out of which some of them drew a thread nine days long.

CEV
23rd October 2004, 12:13 AM
Thanks everyone! I'll be sending the email to my pastor tonite. And I'll be correcting those pesky Sola Scriptura parts, too.........

thejesusfish90
27th October 2004, 03:05 AM
[QUOTE]I hope this isn't understood to be "debating", but:

This is a great Idea CEV... You should give your pastor the opportunity to defend his beliefs... perhaps when he says that the KJV is the perfect bible, he means that the ideas are perfect not the exact words themselves... and like seebs said, sola scriptura is quite independant of biblical literalism... But having pentecostal tendancies I dont follow Sola Scriptura as such, believe that the bible is the governing authority on all matter of faith including prophesy... Keep us informed as to how this goes!! and ONLY if your O.K with it, post up his response (I emphasise only if your O.K with it because I dont wont to pressure you into doing something you dont want to do...im only intersted in how your pastor defended his beliefs) I'll be praying for you and your pastor...

God Bless

Your Brother in Christ

Chris

Bingley
27th October 2004, 09:58 AM
And of course with the pastor's permission. I mean, he may not be too keen on having his words disseminated over the web or might choose to phrase things differently if he feels he is in a position of defending his opinions before an audience rather than talking things over with a member of his congregation who is having difficulties.

thejesusfish90
28th October 2004, 01:07 AM
lol... sorry that as well...

gtsecc
28th October 2004, 08:20 AM
The KJV includes the Deuterocanonical books. Ask him if it is perfect with them or only if they are removed.

CEV
28th October 2004, 12:05 PM
I sent the email last week. It has been over 5 days and he still hasn't gotten back to me. I know he isn't that buy. So he must have chickened out. Now what...