Why do Christians leave Christianity and deny Christ?

[MariaRegina]

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THIS YOUNG BOY:

These questions were answered by a 17 year old here at CF:

Q: Regarding leaving Christianity:
if it once seemed like the right thing to do, why did you change?

A: I changed because I saw I and others that believed like me were wrong.


Q: Did God ever seem real to you during those 18 years?

A: (15 for me) You bet he did. I was prepared to die for God - I prayed the Rosary every night before I went to bed.


Q: Or did you believe simply because your parents and your peers believed?

A: I also just believed it because my parents and peers did. I wouldn't have been Christian had I not been told about Christianity.


Q:Was it just an intellectual belief or an emotional response, but not an experiential one?

A: At the time I would have said it was all - now I'd say it was just emotional.


Q: I often wonder why people deny Christ. Did they ever have the faith?

A: I'd tell you yes, so would most other past Christians, and I'd venture to say that even some current Christians will tell you that.


Q: Or is it a traumatic event like the death of a parent or a dear friend?

A: I have suffered events like that, but those were nowhere near the cause. It was an intellectual basis for me leaving Christianity.

[MariaRegina]

This is another answer from a 25 year old man.

That's a really good question. I don't think a Christian has ever asked me that.

I guess I never really thought about it when I was a Christian. It was always just a given. My family was Christian. All my friends were Christian. I just never really thought about it. Might things have been different had I grown up with someone who wasn't a Christian? I think it's pretty likely.

It wasn't so much experimental, and it certainly wasn't intellectual, it was more of a 'This is what good people do' thing. Being Christian just seemed like the nice, upstanding, honest thing to be. It took until I was a teenager before I could even think about disbelieving in god without feeling guilty. I'm still not over the guilt 100%, but it gets a little smaller each year. For the first year or so, it really bugged me: Am I making a huge mistake? But eventually I just stopped worrying about it.

I never really had a strong faith in Christ. He never seemed really real to me when I was a Christian. I went from having a really strong belief in a loving, personal god, to really just not caring about it anymore.

No, nothing traumatic happened to hurt my faith. It was more of a slow atrophy over my adolesence.

[MariaRegina]

If we don't nourish our faith by attending the Divine Liturgy, prayer, fasting and spiritual reading, it can wither and die.

Bottom line: we can't take our faith for granted. We cannot be minimal or nominal Christians.

[MariaRegina]

The 17 year old boy also responded:

At a time, I don't know when, I began to explore my faith. After much time I decided the Bible wasn't 100% truth (which is evident from simple contradictions such as Jesus's geneology). I decided it was mostly true. This belief stuck with me for a few years until I read the entire Bible cover to cover.

I kept an open mind, but more and more I found myself saying, "... what?" This book, which I had thought was the word of God, was quite literally (in reguards to the early genesis stories and dueteronomy (sp?)) pathetic. These stories in the holy Bible weren't much different from those I read from native american mythology. They all seemed equally bogus - equally ignorant. I dropped the notion that the Bible was mostly true and decided to believe that everything from the begining of the NT up was true, and the rest was a combination of legends and myths. "God just inspired it, it doesn't mean man got it 100% correct," I thought.

Later I started online debate. "Gonna win the good fight for God," I thought.

I got my butt kicked. The other Christians got their butts kicked.

It woke me up. I thought maybe there's a possibility it's not true. I started examining WHY I believed it. The only answer I could come to was that I believed it because my parents believed it. I started to think about things - stuff like God's great plan - and I realized how stupid and juvenile it was. I had no reason to believe what I did; so I dropped the belief.

That was the reasoning that lead up to my dropping the belief. Did I talk to priests about it? Yes. Did I read books on Christianity, supporting it? Yes. Did I talk to friends and get them to "help" me? Yes. Were they able to say anything convincing? No.

Now, those were just those things that lead to my deconversion.

These are very sober thoughts. Isn't this exactly why the Holy Orthodox Church teaches us to read the Bible with the mind of the Church, and not apart from the Church? Sola Scriptura can lead us away from Christ and His Holy Church.

If any of you want to respond to this young man with kindness, love, and sincerity, please go to:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=2093603#post2093603

[MariaRegina]

Christy4Christ asked a very interesting question. She wondered if these young atheists had a negative experience which led them away from Christ, so she told this true story:

Here is a true story of two little boys, alter servers, in totally opposite sides of the world. Two same experiences with two totally different outcomes. One little boy is walking up to the Bishop and drops the cruet and it shatters making a very loud noise. The Bishop becomes angry and yells at the small alter server. "Get out of here! You foolish child! How could you be so careless!?" The little boy runs off horrified.

Meanwhile in a another place another small alter server is walking up to the bishop and he also drops the cruet and it falls to the floor making a very loud ear peircing noise. This Bishop walks up to the child and asks him,"What do you intend on doing when you are grown up?" The child looks up at him and tells him he is joining a certain school (the name escapes me) and the bishop says "No, I mean later in life" then he goes on to say "Do you know what you are going to do? You are going to grow up to be a Bishop just like me" and he pats the child on the head and smiles at him.

Do you know who these two little alter servers grew up to be? The first one was Joseph Stalin (communist tyrant) and the second boy turned out to be Bishop Fulton Sheen! This is a very good example of how the love or lack of love we show one can effect their whole life. These are lasting deeds! St. Paul spoke about our deeds and how they should last into eternity, this is a great example of how one Bishops deed might have changed the entire course of a young boys life.

[Reader Nilus]

I would not be all shook up at the intellectual questioning of the faith by a 17 year old. At some point all people have to make the faith their own, and not as some sort of tribal thing that they grew up with. The fact that the teenager is engaged in conversation on this board is a sign that he has not totally given it up. As one of the greats in Orthodoxy said I believe through a furnace of doubt, Fydor Dostoevsky.
Jeff the Finn

[MariaRegina]

I would not be all shook up at the intellectual questioning of the faith by a 17 year old. At some point all people have to make the faith their own, and not as some sort of tribal thing that they grew up with. The fact that the teenager is engaged in conversation on this board is a sign that he has not totally given it up. As one of the greats in Orthodoxy said I believe through a furnace of doubt, Fydor Dostoevsky.
Jeff the Finn

Not shook up, but saddened and sobered. We must pray for him. He seemed to be responding nicely to kindness but would harden whenever someone tried to convert him back to Christianity.

[Moros]

The monastaic lifestyle is also more important to our faith than everyone realizes.

[Reader Nilus]

Not shook up, but saddened and sobered. We must pray for him. He seemed to be responding nicely to kindness but would harden whenever someone tried to convert him back to Christianity.We do not need to try to convert anyone to Christianity. That is one of the huge differences between us and the rest of Christendom. The more Christ like we live, the more the Light of Christ draws all people. If we are concerned we need to be concerned about: How we live. It is interesting to me that the parable of the two brothers does not come up. The younger one that took his share and ended up slopping pigs, and the older one staying at home. At the end of the story the younger who sowed his wild oats sort of speak, was redeemed, where the older one became embittered. Just because the older one never left, did not mean he was ever there. Osel is right, if we follow the monastics, we do not need to concern ourselves with it. The Light of Christ will shine forth.
Jeff the Finn

[countrymousenc]

We do not need to try to convert anyone to Christianity. That is one of the huge differences between us and the rest of Christendom. The more Christ like we live, the more the Light of Christ draws all people. If we are concerned we need to be concerned about: How we live. It is interesting to me that the parable of the two brothers does not come up. The younger one that took his share and ended up slopping pigs, and the older one staying at home. At the end of the story the younger who sowed his wild oats sort of speak, was redeemed, where the older one became embittered. Just because the older one never left, did not mean he was ever there. Osel is right, if we follow the monastics, we do not need to concern ourselves with it. The Light of Christ will shine forth.
Jeff the Finn

Good morning Jeff! (I hope you're feeling better :) )

Interesting that this should come up today. Archbishop Dmitri is visiting (this weekend) the OCA mission parish I've begun attending. Last evening at vespers, he pointed out that in Charlotte, not only are there a myriad of churches, but, in the city that named a major boulevard after Billy Graham, there are three Buddhist temples and a Muslim mosque. And that most of these people know nothing more about Orthodoxy than that there is a big Greek Orthodox church that has really great food festivals. To those who are aware, Orthodoxy is just an ethnic form of Christian religion.

He said that people need to know the truth. The Truth. It's the only hope the world has.

(I agree with him.)

"How will they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14)

How we live is a very important way of helping to spread the truth, but don't we also need to tell them why?

Love in Christ,
Dianne

[Reader Nilus]

If one is asked then speak. It is quite simple. There is no need to worry. Most of us read our way into Orthodoxy, and then found the Church.
Jeff the Finn

[Christy4Christ]

If one is asked then speak. It is quite simple. There is no need to worry. Most of us read our way into Orthodoxy, and then found the Church.
Jeff the Finn

Hi everyone :wave:

Here is my two cents on this. First, being Catholic I have heard this same teaching from some of my brothers and sisters. I believe this is false, I do not believe that the Apostles waited for people to ask. If they had, we would not have Christianity today. Our JOB is to spread the gospel, to be fishers of men. How can we sit by and hope someone reads a book about Orthodoxy or Catholicism and then just runs up to us asking questions? In a perfect world that would be great. This is most certainly not a perfect world. We need to open our mouths.

Now here are my concerns about my experience..


I am sorry but I have to tell you, I was there last night and I saw the these people, it seems to me like they have given up. They are not here to hear about God but to disprove Him. When I asked one of them why they are here the response I got was this "Because it is fun to fight with Christians" I asked if perhaps they felt they are here to try and tell people there is no God, the response was "that could be part of it".

If anyone here is not strong in their faith I would not suggest this area of CF.

The truth is I went to sleep with an unshakable feeling of evil last night (I should say this morning)

I am actually a little concerned that this type of thing goes on here at CF. It has gone beyond the point of Atheists asking questions, they are spreading their views and can cause great harm to younger people or the less mature in the faith.

Someone just last night said "Alot of people are led away from the Lord on this board" (General Apologetics). To me that is frightening. :(

The bottom line is that there is an extreme falling away from Christ and I saw that first hand last night. It is our duty to stand and be strong about Christ, I am not speaking about this board. I am speaking about in our lives in general. If this is the attitude of Atheists around the world then I can tell you that they ARE spreading their gospel, we must spread ours too.

Pray for these people that God reaches them somehow.. :prayer:

I pray I have not offended anyone. I was speaking as a Catholic and I am not here to dispute anyone's beliefs. I feel we are all in this together as children of God.


Peace everyone. :hug: :kiss:

[countrymousenc]

Well said, Christy.

[NewToLife]

Our first priority is to live as christians ourselves, this should be the way that we primarily bear witness, by showing the power Christ in our own lives. If we achieve our goal then we will have a profound effect on those who come into contact with us.

[Christy4Christ]

Our first priority is to live as christians ourselves, this should be the way that we primarily bear witness, by showing the power Christ in our own lives. If we achieve our goal then we will have a profound effect on those who come into contact with us.

Yes this is true but in the context of a message board, the only example we have is in what we type.

Also, apart from living in a Christian manner and being a reflection of Christ, we have a duty to teach about Him..

[MattMMMan17]

"Preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words" - Saint Francis of Assisi

[Christy4Christ]

OK now for my opinion on why they turn away from Christ.

1) Lack of solid teaching..

2) Too much logical thinking. This can be very dangerous, we can think ourselves to death (literally)

3) Hanging around in places where people all have an anti-God opinion and are free to say what they will.. Peer pressure is very dangerous.

4) Coming from a background of uncomfortable or bad Christian experiences..

5) Finding that it is easier and "more fun" to just live life not having anyone to answer to in the end..

[MariaRegina]

OK now for my opinion on why they turn away from Christ.

1) Lack of solid teaching..

2) Too much logical thinking. This can be very dangerous, we can think ourselves to death (literally)

3) Hanging around in places where people all have an anti-God opinion and are free to say what they will.. Peer pressure is very dangerous.

4) Coming from a background of uncomfortable or bad Christian experiences..

5) Finding that it is easier and "more fun" to just live life not having anyone to answer to in the end..

In addition --

I sometimes wonder about the influence of high school teachers. I know a high school/university professor who constantly berates Christians as bigots, etc. The text books she uses have a definite anti-Christian bias.

In one of her textbooks, the authors state that Christian Bible studies at the college level are conducted as free ESL classes. (I've not observed this.) The text does not mention that the non-credit Arabic Classes sponsored by clubs on or near most universities are taught by muslims with the intention of converting Christians.

EDIT: The Quran is used as the text for Arabic studies.

[Umut]

What sickens me is that muslims would try to convert Christians. It is amazing what brain washing can do. I cannot help but feel hate for the muslims who try to convert Christians.

A 17 year old is at a point in his life when he is most confused about life, religion and philosophy. He can easily be steered away in any direction because his thoughts are all over the place.

The media has a lot to do with Christianity's bad image in North America. In fact, the only reason as to why Christianity looks bad is because of bad sects and the media's affect. Shows like Southpark; where Jesus Christ fights Satan in a boxing match. There are dancing little dolls of Jesus. The Priests and the raping of the children. In movies, blasphamy after blasphamy. There is so much that makes Christianity look dumb. This 17 year old's logic has led him to the wrong path. I use my logic to prove God's existence. It is in him not to believe; and he sees Christianity from a point of view in which he doesn't like. Rules that says masturbation is a sin (a nightmare for a person his, and my age) and stories that are told in the Bible about Jesus. This wonderful man who "went around washing people's feet". These are the words that are wonderful to our minds; but seem like an unbelievable child's tale to his mind. Unfortunately he has not had the same opportunity as I, to be witnessing intellectual beings to get answers from; such as people from this site; and also an outsider's point of view towards religion. He has also not had the opportunity to discuss questions with someone intellectual; therefore he has been mislead.

There are many things I can tell him to prove God's existence; and why God seems logical. Andreas and I had a conversation that was very logical and convincing to me that Jesus had really existed; and that the idea of God and afterlife is logical. I asked him some questions that I already knew the answers to; so everything just sort of fell together; which is what makes things logical. I'm afraid this 17 year old has not had the same opportunities as me; and perhaps most of us who are believers.

There are many things I can tell him, but it's hard to begin when his mind is not open to suggestions, ideas and opinions; and when he is in defensive mode. It's like trying to keep a conversation with someone going for more than 5 minutes; but the person is answering with YES and NO answers; and is not explaining himself so that you can add on to his opinions enough to form a conversation. He will not open up to suggestions and logical answers.

I'm good at arguing with Atheists; I just wish I had a smart one to argue with. Everyone I argue with loses to me (except Andreas; that clever devil) and ends up telling me that their beliefs are theirs and mines and mine. Therefore I don't want to argue. My point is; if we try too hard they will get turned off to the idea of religion. I honestly don't think we should "spread the word". What I mean is; in North America; when people spread the word, Jahova's Witnesses come to mind. They're like telemarketers. People immediately see an opening as if we're desprate for more recruits to our faith; and take advantage of that to drift away. If we try hard in an environment where Christianity has been made out to look stupid; then they will immediately get turned off because of subconscious thoughts. I hope that made sense.

We should pray for them. When this 17 year old loses the urge to stimulate himself and desire certain things in life; he'll think clearly and hopefully have good influences around him to spread the Gospel in a clear and truthful manner.

When this 17 year old says that he's done research; and talked to people, etc. He is usually trying to confirm to us that he has logical reasons for stepping out of this faith. Which tends to say about him that he hasn't really talked to people; he just wants the opposing person to think his reasons for stepping out is justifyable. This state of mind is the basic human defense mechanism against people thinking you're brainwashed or not smart enough to come to conclusions.

Fr. Blessed Seraphim Rose said that he would not argue with Atheists because he did not see the point.

What we should do is pray for the salvation of others, and hope that they all have good experiences with Christianity.

P.S. I hate the media. :)

[Photini]

Now here are my concerns about my experience..


I am sorry but I have to tell you, I was there last night and I saw the these people, it seems to me like they have given up. They are not here to hear about God but to disprove Him. When I asked one of them why they are here the response I got was this "Because it is fun to fight with Christians" I asked if perhaps they felt they are here to try and tell people there is no God, the response was "that could be part of it".

If anyone here is not strong in their faith I would not suggest this area of CF.

The truth is I went to sleep with an unshakable feeling of evil last night (I should say this morning)

I am actually a little concerned that this type of thing goes on here at CF. It has gone beyond the point of Atheists asking questions, they are spreading their views and can cause great harm to younger people or the less mature in the faith.

Someone just last night said "Alot of people are led away from the Lord on this board" (General Apologetics). To me that is frightening. :(

The bottom line is that there is an extreme falling away from Christ and I saw that first hand last night. It is our duty to stand and be strong about Christ, I am not speaking about this board. I am speaking about in our lives in general. If this is the attitude of Atheists around the world then I can tell you that they ARE spreading their gospel, we must spread ours too.

Pray for these people that God reaches them somehow.. :prayer:

I pray I have not offended anyone. I was speaking as a Catholic and I am not here to dispute anyone's beliefs. I feel we are all in this together as children of God.


Peace everyone. :hug: :kiss:Hi Christy.

When I venture into GA, I usually try to spend very little time there. I rarely go to point out anything . Usually I just ask a question or make a very short statement about something...not wanting to draw a lot of attention. It may not appear that people are asking questions. But I can tell you, that without me being loud and in anybody's face, I've had several PM's from people who are now wanting to know more about Orthodoxy just from seeing me in there, and looking at my profile. Even when I PM them back, I'm hesitant to say a whole lot, in case I am over-emphasizing or misrepresenting Orthodoxy in any way. God forbid that my flapping gums contributes to pushing someone further away from the Church!!

[Photini]

stupid quote button!!

[Umut]

exactly

[Orthodox Andrew]

stupid quote button!!
:P

[Christianseeker]

2) Too much logical thinking. This can be very dangerous, we can think ourselves to death (literally)



I think you are right about this, Christy. All five points but especially this one. The scientific world view is imposed on people from when they are very young. In public schools they are not allowed to teach children that the logical, scientific way of looking at things has limitations, that it is good for some areas of investigation but not for others. :(

------------------------------------------------
--Sarah

Note on my faith icon: I'm using the "non denominational" one because I have not yet found a denomination or church that I feel comfortable in after my experience with the Episcopal Church. I am reading a lot and exploring the Catholic and Orthodox traditions as well as Protestant churches. I don't want to mislead anyone about what my perspective is.

[countrymousenc]

My point is; if we try too hard they will get turned off to the idea of religion. I honestly don't think we should "spread the word". What I mean is; in North America; when people spread the word, Jahova's Witnesses come to mind. They're like telemarketers. People immediately see an opening as if we're desprate for more recruits to our faith; and take advantage of that to drift away. If we try hard in an environment where Christianity has been made out to look stupid; then they will immediately get turned off because of subconscious thoughts. I hope that made sense.

We should pray for them.

~~~~~~~

Fr. Blessed Seraphim Rose said that he would not argue with Atheists because he did not see the point.

What we should do is pray for the salvation of others, and hope that they all have good experiences with Christianity.

P.S. I hate the media. :)

Umut, I think you made some good points. You can't argue anyone into believing, because Faith is much more than merely intellectual. The Apostle Paul wrote that it was not through fancy and impressive words that he was able to convert people, but through the Gospel, spoken simply in the power of the Holy Spirit.

We live in a nation in which people have been bombarded with many false gospels - name & claim, health & wealth, chiliasm, easy believism, heretical sects knocking at the door, lone ranger h***fire and d***ation street preachers, t.v. "evangelists" begging for money and promising miracles in return, and various "scientific" forms of faith.

I don't know enough yet to know what Orthodox evangelism is supposed to be like, but it has to be different than that.

But I am pretty sure that it has to be. Surely the Church still has the responsiblity of preaching the gospel wherever people will listen. I don't think we're here just to serve ourselves. The Orthodox, among whom I hope to belong, are given Life to share Life, as long as this Gospel age lasts. Jesus said that rivers of living water would flow from everyone who believes in Him.

[Suzannah]

What sickens me is that muslims would try to convert Christians. It is amazing what brain washing can do. I cannot help but feel hate for the muslims who try to convert Christians.

A 17 year old is at a point in his life when he is most confused about life, religion and philosophy. He can easily be steered away in any direction because his thoughts are all over the place.

The media has a lot to do with Christianity's bad image in North America. In fact, the only reason as to why Christianity looks bad is because of bad sects and the media's affect. Shows like Southpark; where Jesus Christ fights Satan in a boxing match. There are dancing little dolls of Jesus. The Priests and the raping of the children. In movies, blasphamy after blasphamy. There is so much that makes Christianity look dumb. This 17 year old's logic has led him to the wrong path. I use my logic to prove God's existence. It is in him not to believe; and he sees Christianity from a point of view in which he doesn't like. Rules that says masturbation is a sin (a nightmare for a person his, and my age) and stories that are told in the Bible about Jesus. This wonderful man who "went around washing people's feet". These are the words that are wonderful to our minds; but seem like an unbelievable child's tale to his mind. Unfortunately he has not had the same opportunity as I, to be witnessing intellectual beings to get answers from; such as people from this site; and also an outsider's point of view towards religion. He has also not had the opportunity to discuss questions with someone intellectual; therefore he has been mislead.

There are many things I can tell him to prove God's existence; and why God seems logical. Andreas and I had a conversation that was very logical and convincing to me that Jesus had really existed; and that the idea of God and afterlife is logical. I asked him some questions that I already knew the answers to; so everything just sort of fell together; which is what makes things logical. I'm afraid this 17 year old has not had the same opportunities as me; and perhaps most of us who are believers.

There are many things I can tell him, but it's hard to begin when his mind is not open to suggestions, ideas and opinions; and when he is in defensive mode. It's like trying to keep a conversation with someone going for more than 5 minutes; but the person is answering with YES and NO answers; and is not explaining himself so that you can add on to his opinions enough to form a conversation. He will not open up to suggestions and logical answers.

I'm good at arguing with Atheists; I just wish I had a smart one to argue with. Everyone I argue with loses to me (except Andreas; that clever devil) and ends up telling me that their beliefs are theirs and mines and mine. Therefore I don't want to argue. My point is; if we try too hard they will get turned off to the idea of religion. I honestly don't think we should "spread the word". What I mean is; in North America; when people spread the word, Jahova's Witnesses come to mind. They're like telemarketers. People immediately see an opening as if we're desprate for more recruits to our faith; and take advantage of that to drift away. If we try hard in an environment where Christianity has been made out to look stupid; then they will immediately get turned off because of subconscious thoughts. I hope that made sense.

We should pray for them. When this 17 year old loses the urge to stimulate himself and desire certain things in life; he'll think clearly and hopefully have good influences around him to spread the Gospel in a clear and truthful manner.

When this 17 year old says that he's done research; and talked to people, etc. He is usually trying to confirm to us that he has logical reasons for stepping out of this faith. Which tends to say about him that he hasn't really talked to people; he just wants the opposing person to think his reasons for stepping out is justifyable. This state of mind is the basic human defense mechanism against people thinking you're brainwashed or not smart enough to come to conclusions.

Fr. Blessed Seraphim Rose said that he would not argue with Atheists because he did not see the point.

What we should do is pray for the salvation of others, and hope that they all have good experiences with Christianity.

P.S. I hate the media. :)Dear Umut,
Have I told you lately that YOU are my blessing??? This post is one of the most wise, and literate observation of human behaviour and thought process that I have read in a very long time....
My hat is off to you!
Love,
Auntie Suzannah

P.s.: Edit to add: Try to work on the hate thing about muslims converting Christians...I know its frustrating...we have to trust God and not hate them....
Love,
Me.

[Christy4Christ]

A 17 year old is at a point in his life when he is most confused about life, religion and philosophy. He can easily be steered away in any direction because his thoughts are all over the place.




What I am most bothered by is that this happened here at CF...

[ninja]

The mods here should seriously look at what role the GA forum servers. You can't reason someone to Christ, Christianity is about faith. Unless someone takes the time to develop a personal relationship with God I'm sorry but they are going to be weak in their faith

[MariaRegina]

The mods here should seriously look at what role the GA forum servers. You can't reason someone to Christ, Christianity is about faith. Unless someone takes the time to develop a personal relationship with God I'm sorry but they are going to be weak in their faith

We can show kindness in our posts over at GA. I post with kindness over there and it is having an effect. Several of the atheists have expressed appreciation for our kindness -- that we don't judge them -- that we care. We are Christ to them. If they weren't here, then they wouldn't have a chance to encounter Christ through us.

We're offering them life and light and we may be the only ones who do.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

[katherine2001]

With the way that "witnessing" is done these days by many groups, I can see why some people may change their minds later. In many churches, there are altar calls that last 20 mins. or more and people are pressured into making a decision right at that minute. I remember in college posters being put up around school announcing a program on some really provacative topic that college kids would be interested in and the name of the evangelical group that was putting on the program being at the bottom of the poster in extremely small print (hoping that people wouldn't notice who was putting it on). Of course, any people that attended had Jesus sprung on them and then I'm sure that they got the altar call on top of that. And let's not even get into the tele-evangelists. I agree alot with Jeff on this one. One of the best witnesses we have is living a Godly life ourselves, and truly loving others unconditionally, as Christ loves us unconditionally. If we truly care about others, have mercy and compassion towards all and, most importantly, hate the sin but love the sinner instead of refusing to have anything to do with them because we don't like what they are doing. I keep thinking of the Gospel reading for today, Luke 7:36-50. Jesus makes the point that those who've been forgiven much love much while those who had little to be forgiven love little. That is one that I try to hold on to because I am one of those that God forgave much. I know what it is to be caught in sin and not able to see anyway out of it. Yet we have a God who loves us in spite of the sin and never gives up on us--ever. He'll be trying to woo us to him til our very last breath if that is what it takes. And, I'm sorry, but I've seen too many Christians that not only hate the sin but they hate the sinner. What amazes me about the stories of the desert fathers is how they would always take the side of the sinner when monks would come to them wanting them to punish another monk for his sins. Personally, I think that things like this are a much more powerful witness than what "witnessing" is considered to be these days. Many people are capable of telling what is real and what isn't.

[MariaRegina]

With the way that "witnessing" is done these days by many groups, I can see why some people may change their minds later. In many churches, there are altar calls that last 20 mins. or more and people are pressured into making a decision right at that minute. I remember in college posters being put up around school announcing a program on some really provacative topic that college kids would be interested in and the name of the evangelical group that was putting on the program being at the bottom of the poster in extremely small print (hoping that people wouldn't notice who was putting it on). Of course, any people that attended had Jesus sprung on them and then I'm sure that they got the altar call on top of that. And let's not even get into the tele-evangelists. I agree alot with Jeff on this one. One of the best witnesses we have is living a Godly life ourselves, and truly loving others unconditionally, as Christ loves us unconditionally. If we truly care about others, have mercy and compassion towards all and, most importantly, hate the sin but love the sinner instead of refusing to have anything to do with them because we don't like what they are doing. I keep thinking of the Gospel reading for today, Luke 7:36-50. Jesus makes the point that those who've been forgiven much love much while those who had little to be forgiven love little. That is one that I try to hold on to because I am one of those that God forgave much. I know what it is to be caught in sin and not able to see anyway out of it. Yet we have a God who loves us in spite of the sin and never gives up on us--ever. He'll be trying to woo us to him til our very last breath if that is what it takes. And, I'm sorry, but I've seen too many Christians that not only hate the sin but they hate the sinner. What amazes me about the stories of the desert fathers is how they would always take the side of the sinner when monks would come to them wanting them to punish another monk for his sins. Personally, I think that things like this are a much more powerful witness than what "witnessing" is considered to be these days. Many people are capable of telling what is real and what isn't.


Thanks Katherine! :wave:

Love conquers all!

[Umut]

And, I'm sorry, but I've seen too many Christians that not only hate the sin but they hate the sinner.[/QUOTE]

I know, that's like me bashing someone's head with a baseball bat, and that person breaking the bat afterwards... The sin is the act of bashing and the sinner is the person; not the bat.

P.s.: Edit to add: Try to work on the hate thing about muslims converting Christians...I know its frustrating...we have to trust God and not hate them....[/QUOTE]

can't, sorry. thinking about it is really angrying me...

and thank you for the praise Suzannah! :) Where would humanity be without you? In the gutter! That's where... For those of you who took that rhetorical question literally; there is your answer: In the gutter!

lol, me and my lame jokes...

[Umut]

i still haven't learned how to quote people judging from above...

:)

[MariaRegina]

i still haven't learned how to quote people judging from above...

:)



[quote] the statement you want to quote followed by [ /quote]


but omit that space between the '[ 'and the '/' in the final bracketed quote

If you look at your previous post, all you need do is edit your post and delete the / from the first [quote] and it should work.

[Umut]

thanks :D

[Suzannah]

And, I'm sorry, but I've seen too many Christians that not only hate the sin but they hate the sinnerI know, that's like me bashing someone's head with a baseball bat, and that person breaking the bat afterwards... The sin is the act of bashing and the sinner is the person; not the bat.

can't, sorry. thinking about it is really angrying me...

and thank you for the praise Suzannah! :) Where would humanity be without you? In the gutter! That's where... For those of you who took that rhetorical question literally; there is your answer: In the gutter!

lol, me and my lame jokes...
LOL!!! Well, I have been in the gutter...in fact wallowed in it...I spent my fair share of time as an atheist: about two weeks...found no "logical" basis for it. LOL

Then I went on to "greater" things...I really believed in a lot of New Age nonsense and witchcraft...I bowed to idols...and by the way, totally off topic: my experience in witchcraft has really added to my Christian experience in one particular way: I really do know the difference between worshipping an "idol" and "venerating an icon"...it makes me giggle when I hear people say that we Orthodox "worship" icons....if they only knew where I've been and what I've actually done, they would not be saying that...I also giggle when I hear people say they are worried about "worshipping icons" "accidentally"...HONESTLY!!! There is no way to worship ANYTHING "accidentally". It is either intentional or it isn't. This is only further proof to me that the majority of western Christendom (you know who I mean) doesn't really understand what "worship" is in the first place...that's why their churches are in so much trouble.

[Umut]

i know what you mean...

this half german half filipino kid asked me what my religious affiliation was, and i said Orthodox Christianity; and he said "Why are you stupid enough to worship wood with some paint on it"

and i said "those are called icons; we don't worship them, we venerate them; pray to them; not worship them, and they are almost like gates that our prayers go through..."

he didn't have much to say after that; in fact, he had nothing to say :)

i think no one in north america knows too much about Orthodoxy because our Church is pretty much eventless and calm. i mean we don't make the headlines because our priests don't rape children... sad to say other priests do... no offense to anyone!!

[Suzannah]

i know what you mean...

this half german half filipino kid asked me what my religious affiliation was, and i said Orthodox Christianity; and he said "Why are you stupid enough to worship wood with some paint on it"

and i said "those are called icons; we don't worship them, we venerate them; pray to them; not worship them, and they are almost like gates that our prayers go through..."

he didn't have much to say after that; in fact, he had nothing to say :)

i think no one in north america knows too much about Orthodoxy because our Church is pretty much eventless and calm. i mean we don't make the headlines because our priests don't rape children... sad to say other priests do... no offense to anyone!!
If you talk to him again and the subject comes up ask him this: "What is worship?" If he says its music, and flappng your hands and mumbling some sort of "praise" like "Thank you Jesus" then you tell him about me and what I said. Very serious Umut. People do not know what "worship" is. They think its all about gee-tars, and wearing what you slept in (because after all, we should come as we are , to the "Come as you are party"....)
They do not realize that worship is giving to God what God wants, rather than what WE want....

[Umut]

oh, and Suzannah! Remind me often that I am your blessing! Makes me feel special!!

:D

You'll be in my prayers tonight as well as all the other wonderful people on this site.

Please everyone pray for Cecilia Zhang and her capturer that he may be forgiven.

Because Our Lord forgives us all the time, and as well as us, he deserves forgiveness too.

i like the idea that in this religion no one will go to hell as long they repent; and choose God's love by performing simple tasks like not eating meat and dairy products for a few weeks, and obeying 10 simple commandments... I mean here is a Man who suffered for our sins; Jesus Christ; suffered SO MUCH, and all we have to do is not eat any meat and dairy products for a while; WHICH IS ACTUALLY GOOD FOR US!!!! lol!!! all the bad things we do may pleasure us at the moment (affairs, stealing, masturbation, gossip) but in the end; even in this life, it leads to being miserable...

i constantly remind myself... what's this piece of meat going to compare to the dinner you will have with Your Lord, Jesus Christ, in the afterlife... where you will dine with him and all the Saints, the Blessed Mother of God, and your friends and loved ones! I immediately put the meat down! Especially when the teenage urges call to me; I immediately remind myself of the apple you'll be eating under a tree near the waters that will make lust and stimulation feel like a thousand pricks in your finger!

I'm going nowhere with this;

lol

anyways, take care all!!

[countrymousenc]

LOL!!! Well, I have been in the gutter...in fact wallowed in it...I spent my fair share of time as an atheist: about two weeks...found no "logical" basis for it. LOL

Then I went on to "greater" things...I really believed in a lot of New Age nonsense and witchcraft...I bowed to idols...and by the way, totally off topic: my experience in witchcraft has really added to my Christian experience in one particular way: I really do know the difference between worshipping an "idol" and "venerating an icon"...it makes me giggle when I hear people say that we Orthodox "worship" icons....if they only knew where I've been and what I've actually done, they would not be saying that...I also giggle when I hear people say they are worried about "worshipping icons" "accidentally"...HONESTLY!!! There is no way to worship ANYTHING "accidentally". It is either intentional or it isn't. This is only further proof to me that the majority of western Christendom (you know who I mean) doesn't really understand what "worship" is in the first place...that's why their churches are in so much trouble.

Suzannah, please write about and publish those experiences, because there are so many people out there who need to know the difference. Your comments in your later post about what worship is not - so, so very true! Now that I'm beginning to experience what it is to be part of true worship, my heart breaks for all the people who already love Jesus, according to what little they do know, but have never experienced this. Now I understand why I felt as though I was slowly starving, spiritually.

[ufonium2]

Arrogance. That's why. Notice when most atheists "deconverted": usually at the height of teenage arrogance. That's why atheism is big in Western nations, because here pride is considered a virtue, at least in popular culture.

I work in an academic setting where Christianity is pretty much openly mocked, for the same reason. Christians are seen as followers...too dumb or too scared to think for themselves. Atheists need to feel intellectually superior to theists; it's the cornerstone of their faith, so to speak. That's why they come to places like CF and pick on Christians, especially young ones. It validates them somehow to ask a 15-year-old recent convert to explain the different geneologies of Jesus, and when the kid can't do it they declare Christianity a sham. They don't argue with theologians, the argue with neophytes. It's sickening.

[Eusebios]

I think you are right about this, Christy. All five points but especially this one. The scientific world view is imposed on people from when they are very young. In public schools they are not allowed to teach children that the logical, scientific way of looking at things has limitations, that it is good for some areas of investigation but not for others. :(

------------------------------------------------
--Sarah

.
Sarah,
Some excellent points here. I think that we often get too caught up in trying to develop a "logical" and "rational" apologetic for the Christian faith. Unfortunately, we also have to ealize that this is , and has been sdince the time of the "Enlightenment", the predominant worldview, particularly in the west.
I am reminded of one of my favorite sayings from the beloved St. Seraphim of Sarov (our family patron) "Attain inner peace and thousands around you will find salvation".
I realize that this seems difficult and perhaps impossible, but I believe it is imperative. Prayer is the most powerful weapon in our arsenal, not cathchy, logical apologetics. Just my 2 cents worth.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[Eusebios]

We can show kindness in our posts over at GA. I post with kindness over there and it is having an effect. Several of the atheists have expressed appreciation for our kindness -- that we don't judge them -- that we care. We are Christ to them. If they weren't here, then they wouldn't have a chance to encounter Christ through us.

We're offering them life and light and we may be the only ones who do.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth
Most excellent truths Elizabeth!
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
:bow:

[MariaRegina]

Dear friends in Christ:

Pride comest before the fall. < somewhere in the Bible

There is a permanent thread in GA devoted to warning Christians with doubts that they shouldn't post in GA, but how many people read it?

Weak Christians (young or old) come for the excitement of earning a convert when they have no business there. Even "Seasoned" Christians may fail due to their pride. Look at the tele-evangelists who have fallen. When we are full of pride, but cannot admit it, then we are open to failure. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Many Atheists in GA give a challenge -- openly wanting to deconvert. If you fall for their bait of using only logic and rational reasoning to prove that God exists and is a personal God -- how can you win? Christ our God is beyond mere human reasoning. It takes supernatural faith to believe in Christ. Our relationship with Christ is experiential -- but that doesn't count in GA. So we're set up to lose in their system.

However, if you talk about God as the unmoved mover (Plato) then you might get somewhere with them. The Allegory of the Caves is fascinating to discuss with them. They don't see our spiritual dimension -- only shadows of it. Still they must move beyond rationalism, which is a big leap of faith for them.

We have to be faithful to our daily prayers and scriptural readings and be advanced in the spiritual life before we attempt to evangelize. Honestly, how many Christians fit this description? I'm still not there. I ventured in only because someone asked for help.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Suzannah]

Arrogance. That's why. Notice when most atheists "deconverted": usually at the height of teenage arrogance. That's why atheism is big in Western nations, because here pride is considered a virtue, at least in popular culture.

I work in an academic setting where Christianity is pretty much openly mocked, for the same reason. Christians are seen as followers...too dumb or too scared to think for themselves. Atheists need to feel intellectually superior to theists; it's the cornerstone of their faith, so to speak. That's why they come to places like CF and pick on Christians, especially young ones. It validates them somehow to ask a 15-year-old recent convert to explain the different geneologies of Jesus, and when the kid can't do it they declare Christianity a sham. They don't argue with theologians, the argue with neophytes. It's sickening.
Yes. I completely agree here. I also was witness to a bizarre hypothesis last night.
In GA there is a thread entitled Angola children murdered for witchcraft or something like that...I attempted to explain animistic religious practices in
Africa because I lived there for three years....a "neopagan" is considered an "expert" over there...I could not believe the forked tongue syndrome, nor could I believe the way the truth is misrepresented and Christianity is blamed for all of Africa's religous problems....they just "babylon"....its a game of Psychological Twister...wierd.

[II Paradox II]

I work in an academic setting where Christianity is pretty much openly mocked, for the same reason. Christians are seen as followers...too dumb or too scared to think for themselves. I don't think this is as bad as it was a few years back, at least in certain fields. In my own field of Philosophy, I actually found I got quite a bit of respect as a Christian. If anything, my radically different POV from virtually everyone else let me be consistently recognized. When 99% of the class comes up with the same bored answers and you come up with something completely different it tends to be intriguing for many others. Despite being Christian, I had great respect from many atheistic professors and students I interacted with.

I should add as well that due to a resurgence in Christian philosophers in the last 30 years, we actually read a number of works from Christian philosophers in class (Alvin Plantinga, Peter Van Inwagen, William Hasker, Linda Zabzebski and Richard Swinburne come to mind).

Personally, I find the challenge of interacting in a primarily unbelieving world refreshing because our answers are so different that we can't help but be noticed. Frankly, the very relativistic age we live in gives us tremendous oppurtunities and inroads that we never had under the much more intellectually repressive age of modernism. Just as relativism opens doors of respectability for all sorts of random beliefs, it also allows for orthodox christian belief to have a chance at being heard without being shouted down by the scientific and cultural establishment.

ken

[countrymousenc]

Dear friends in Christ:

Pride comest before the fall. < somewhere in the Bible

There is a permanent thread in GA devoted to warning Christians with doubts that they shouldn't post in GA, but how many people read it?

Weak Christians (young or old) come for the excitement of earning a convert when they have no business there. Even "Seasoned" Christians may fail due to their pride. Look at the tele-evangelists who have fallen. When we are full of pride, but cannot admit it, then we are open to failure. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

Many Atheists in GA give a challenge -- openly wanting to deconvert. If you fall for their bait of using only logic and rational reasoning to prove that God exists and is a personal God -- how can you win? Christ our God is beyond mere human reasoning. It takes supernatural faith to believe in Christ. Our relationship with Christ is experiential -- but that doesn't count in GA. So we're set up to lose in their system.

However, if you talk about God as the unmoved mover (Plato) then you might get somewhere with them. The Allegory of the Caves is fascinating to discuss with them. They don't see our spiritual dimension -- only shadows of it. Still they must move beyond rationalism, which is a big leap of faith for them.

We have to be faithful to our daily prayers and scriptural readings and be advanced in the spiritual life before we attempt to evangelize. Honestly, how many Christians fit this description? I'm still not there. I ventured in only because someone asked for help.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

Now, that is wisdom.

Thank you, Elizabeth :)

[ufonium2]

I don't think this is as bad as it was a few years back, at least in certain fields. In my own field of Philosophy, I actually found I got quite a bit of respect as a Christian.

I guess I should have qualified by saying I work in Fine Arts, where anything mainstream is automatically wrong. Most people I work with are socialists because in America capitalism is mainstream. I'm sure if we lived in Sweden they would be capitalist, just to be different. By the same reasoning, they are atheist because in America Christianity is mainstream.

[II Paradox II]

I guess I should have qualified by saying I work in Fine Arts, where anything mainstream is automatically wrong. Most people I work with are socialists because in America capitalism is mainstream. I'm sure if we lived in Sweden they would be capitalist, just to be different. By the same reasoning, they are atheist because in America Christianity is mainstream.
Fine arts probably is a little more dicey. My point was just that the current environment isn't all bad. I think Christians can have a tendency to approach cultural change with too much trepidation, not realizing that God can use us even when the whole world is against us, sometimes most effectively in that situation.

If we treat atheists and other non-believers with respect but present ourselves respectably as well we can make great inroads for the gospel.

ken

[Svt4Him]

Oh just ignore this, I didn't realize it was in the orthodox forum. Sorry, linked from the front page.

[Oblio]

Oh just ignore this, I didn't realize it was in the orthodox forum. Sorry, linked from the front page.

Shame on you, I've certainly never done that :D

Seriously,
You are certainly welcome to post your thoughts, we Orthodox don't usually bite ;)

[Umut]

Many Atheists in GA give a challenge -- openly wanting to deconvert. If you fall for their bait of using only logic and rational reasoning to prove that God exists and is a personal God -- how can you win? Christ our God is beyond mere human reasoning. It takes supernatural faith to believe in Christ. Our relationship with Christ is experiential -- but that doesn't count in GA. So we're set up to lose in their system.

However, if you talk about God as the unmoved mover (Plato) then you might get somewhere with them. The Allegory of the Caves is fascinating to discuss with them. They don't see our spiritual dimension -- only shadows of it. Still they must move beyond rationalism, which is a big leap of faith for them.
Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth
I see exactly what you mean, and don't worry, I can tell the difference between the arguments I use. I leave faith to faith; and I add "that's where faith comes in"
example: how can Christ be the son of God? I tell them if you left everything to rational and logical reasoning then there would be no faith; no idea of God. Are you looking for logic? "God wouldn't be God if he could be explained!" There is your logical sentence...

anyways... i say lots of things to atheists...

if god is so great and powerful why does he allow suffering?

My answers:

Realistically: If everyone had it all, no suffering (like Siddhartha Gautama [Buddha before enlightenment] the prince) then this whole world would be the most boring place in the world.

Also... You only know what's good when you have a taste of evil; so when there is a world of GOOD; after a while it wouldn't be GOOD because we wouldn't know it... we wouldn't have scriptures that says "don't forget people! the NO SUFFERING age started at 2006!!! You're having fun right now!" - lol... get it?

Faithfully: Suffering brings you to the state of mind where you understand Christ and his love for mankind. Love and goodness can be understood through suffering!
Also, the greater you uncontrollably suffer; the greater your reward be in the after life.

of course Atheists like to stick to the Realistical ideas.

I also tell them that mankind CHOSE to sin; that's why we have free will...

(do you guys mind if i keep going? i'm on a roll)

I'm gonna write it in the form of a conversation...

Atheist: Well, when you wake up in the morning, somebody had to make that alarm clock; it goes off: did you choose to wake uP?

Umut says: Well, you chose to buy that alarm clock because you choose to go to school.

Atheist: You were brought into a society with a compulsory to survive in society; do you have free will over where you'd like to live?

Umut: Well this is some of the things that you cannot control; like your sex, name (in the early years or until you're 18) and what country you're born in; your genes, and your ability to think etc... These are the THINGS that ROOT you; that make you = YOU! This is you from your base; you must accept it; because Without my name being Umut and me being born in Turkey; I'm not Umut anymore am I? I may be Fabio from Italy and still have an anti-religious mother; and convert to Orthodoxy.

So what makes you = YOU is when you actually make choices in life.

Also; if you don't want to live in Society; you can live in a place like the monastary. And no one is stopping you from living with the animals. :)

Atheist: Doesn't it seem like a fairy tale to you when you deny science and believe in Angels and Magic fairy tales that tell you you're going to go upto Heaven when the end of the world comes and spend time with God in a magical place called heaven?

Umut: Of course when you put it like that it will seem like a fairy tale. Mankind's state of mind has turned it into that. You have to wonder; where do you get this idea of denial, and where do you get this ability to turn it into a fairy tale with your brain!? Look at the source... Your brain is a magical wonderland; the "natural chemistry of the universe" didn't create it... if it did; what created that natural chemistry of the universe? What or Who created the universe?

Atheist: Well, how can you deny science!? There are many scientific theories and experiments that show us that there is no place for a creator.

Umut: How do you know that? Did you see it on TV? I saw a UFO crash into to the White House and take Bill Clinton to their main deck in his underpants. I saw Keanu Reeves fight a million Hugo Weavings in a park (the matrix) how can you beleive this stuff that oyu hear... not to mention this is only the current technology and something will replace it; and 200 years from now they'll laugh at our reasoning and spit on it.

Atheist: How can you deny the theory of Evolution?

Umut: In a nutshell; come back to me when it's an actual THEORUM! (proven) But other than that; a bunch of bones of apes can't prove to me that mankind has evolved from apes. I don't think it's logical to look at these monkeys and think we evolved from them. Just like how you don't believe in God; the Alpha and the Omega; creator of all things... i don't believe in that ****... I don't see it; I don't look at it and feel it with my own eyes; I don't reason with it... I cannot believe something I hear and see. Plus these scientists get money to preach and lecture in Universities. They make these theories as appealing as they can so they can buy our feeble brains. What we hear from a scientist or read in a book; we think its logical, and our nature immediately leads us to prove God's existence false. (Some wisdom that comes from my Italian Law teacher; brought to my ears by Andreas)

Atheist: Explain to me your religion's meaning of life.

Umut: Well, here you have this God that created all things for you to explore, to reason, to have the grounds for free will; to have a chance for you to deny or to embrace. He gives you free will; and a whole world of crazy systems like Science, Medicine, Biology, Psychology etc to judge it on.

This is all a test to see if you will simply avoid the simple pleasures and temptations in life like masturbation or uncontrolled sex and stealing. Things that pleasure you in this life. If you choose God's love you will experience things that will make lust feel like a thousand pricks in your fingers. Because he does this out of Love.

Christ is the perfect example of love; and history shows that. It all falls together when you actually show an interest in religion (stay away from Islam, I can't stress that enough! And I know I cannot stop the hate; but it shall happen soon, forgive me Lord!)

So here we have this Lord that sends down his only begotten son (metaphorical!) to save us from our sins. Sins are somethings that we do that upset God and deny him. So he sends his Son down to save us from our sins! he suffers for all of our sins! So that we don't have to! Because he loves us. Imagine a religion where you will be forgiven; and no body misbehaves because they know they will not fool God and take advantage of everything that Christ stands for. And Imagine one where you go to the bathroom; you sin and you go to hell... (COUGH**ISLAM**COUGH! Again, forgive me Lord!)

It doesn't make sense. Why would God create you out of Love and torture you?

Doesn't make sense. If he sends his Son down to suffer for you; then why would there be a hell? We do have free will and that's how we choose between his Love just by not giving into a form of lust; a girl with a slim body and sexy moves... *rolls eyes* and this piece of flesh that guys SLAVE over, and spend thousands of dollars on porn and corrupt their minds and their future... These things seem like rules but imagine what this place would be like if everyone followed them; they're all for our benefit!

Atheist: Oh yeah? Well.... Ummm.. you suck!

lol

that's all...

sorry if you've read all this and i've wasted your time...

:)

Your brother in Christ,

Umut

[Umut]

hey it's actually not that long...

:)

please, if you have anything to say; say it! :)

dont be shy you wont offend me

[Umut]

One more thing,

Does it not occur to Atheists that they have the ability to believe in something they cannot see? Like when I'm holding something and i put a white paper in front of it; I'm hiding it; they know it's there... They can choose not to believe it and say something like: I use logic to deny that (let's say... a paper cup) cup's existence because I cannot taste it, see it, hear it, touch it, or smell it; therefore it doesn't exist. But we can know from our reasoning!

I have a little saying:

I have the ability to eat so there is food,

I have the ability to drink so there is water,

I have the ability to touch so there is substance,

I have the ability to smell so there is chemical,

I have the ability to have faith so there is a God!

Anyways... I mean these Atheists are just poor losers that walk around with their heads down like they'd just lost their dogs. I was like that when I was an atheist. I was a complete mess up. Now I walk with my chest up and have achieved alot of wisdom and a scholarship. (big grin)

The idea of CONFESSION! Their beloved science has proven that telling a psychiatrist something will take things off your chest and make you feel better. When you pray and confess you feel better, up and running! Personal experience.

Anyways I'm in Audio class and we do no work here so I'm boring you guys with my infinite lines.

So far I have a mark of 93, 90 and 92! Shows the improvement I've mad both spiritually and academically!

Alright...

I'm done, it's time to leave school.

:)

[MariaRegina]

I noticed that the Atheists and Agnostics were a bit sobered when I talked about the Holy Martyrs who died for our Holy Orthodox Faith. And I was not afraid to use the phrase Holy Orthodox Church

If we read the lives of our Holy Saints, these Holy Ones of God will give us the wisdom to say the right words by the example of their holy lives.

Here are the Holy Martyrs whose memory we celebrate today.

Mark, Bishop of Arethusa

Apolytikion: Plagal of the Fourth Tone

Since they had slain through their abstinence and struggles the fiery ragings and fierce motions of the passions, the staunch Martyrs of Christ God laid hold on the graces to drive off the pains and illnesses of the sick and work wonders both while living and after death. Strange indeed is the miracle! That these bare bones should pour forth such overflowing streams of cures. Glory be to our only God.

Reading:
Saint Mark was Bishop of Arethusa in Syria. In the days of Saint Constantine the Great, Saint Mark, moved with divine zeal, destroyed a temple of the idols and raised up a church in its stead. When Julian the Apostate reigned, in 361, as the pagans were now able to avenge the destruction of their temple, Saint Mark, giving way to wrath, hid himself; but when he saw that others were being taken on his account, he gave himself up. Having no regard to his old age, they stripped him and beat his whole body, cast him into filthy sewers, and pulling him out, had children prick him with their iron writing-pens. Then they put him into a basket, smeared him with honey and a kind of relish of pickled fish, and hung him up under the burning sun to be devoured by bees and wasps. But because he bore this so nobly, his enemies repented, and unloosed him.

Jonah & Mark the Martyrs

Apolytikion: Plagal of the Fourth Tone (tone 8)

Since they had slain through their abstinence and struggles the fiery ragings and fierce motions of the passions, the staunch Martyrs of Christ God laid hold on the graces to drive off the pains and illnesses of the sick and work wonders both while living and after death. Strange indeed is the miracle! That these bare bones should pour forth such overflowing streams of cures. Glory be to our only God.

Reading:
As for the holy Martyrs Jonas and Barachesius, they were monks from Persia who lived in the reign of Sapor II, King of Persia from 325 to 379. These Saints found nine Christians in prison suffering for their faith, and comforted them, encouraging them to stand fast till the end, which they did, and received the crown of martyrdom. Because of this, Saints Jonas and Barachesius also were seized, and commanded to worship the fire, the sun, and the water. When they refused, Jonas, among other tortures, had his hands and feet cut off, was crushed in a device that broke his bones, and was sawn asunder. Barachesius was dragged naked over thorns, his whole body was pierced with sharp reeds and then broken in the same device employed upon Jonas, and when boiling pitch was poured down his throat, he gave up his soul into the hands of God.

Martyr Cyril the Deacon and Those with him

Apolytikion: Plagal of the Fourth Tone [tone 8]

Since they had slain through their abstinence and struggles the fiery ragings and fierce motions of the passions, the staunch Martyrs of Christ God laid hold on the graces to drive off the pains and illnesses of the sick and work wonders both while living and after death. Strange indeed is the miracle! That these bare bones should pour forth such overflowing streams of cures. Glory be to our only God.

Reading:
Saint Cyril was a deacon from Heliopolis in Phoenicia. During the reign of the Emperor Constantius, son of Saint Constantine, he had also broken the idols in pieces. When Julian came to power, Saint Cyril was seized by the idolaters and his belly was ripped open. The other holy Martyrs celebrated today, martyred in Gaza and Ascalon during the reign of Julian, were men of priestly rank and consecrated virgins; they were disemboweled, filled with barley, and set before swine to be eaten. The account of all the above Saints is given in Book III, ch. 3, of Theodoret of Cyrrhus' "Ecclesiastical History."

Readings courtesy of Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA
Apolytikia courtesy of Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA

Note: Permission has been received to reproduce this copyrighted material here. All texts used are reproduced with permission from Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA. The selections are taken from their Great Horologion. You may visit them at http://htmadmin.phpwebhosting.com/

[Rilian]

I can say personally I got pretty disenchanted with the judicial nature of much of Western theology (plus the reaction to it where sin and repentence go out the window). Thankfully I found there was an alternate view which pre-dates the one that says God demands satisfaction.

[RhetorTheo]

Have you ever thought of commissioning the atheists to take on the muslims? They would enjoy the challenge.

[Rilian]

Modern militant atheism derives almost its entire ethos and intellectual framework from standing in opposition to Christianity. It is essentially a reaction to Christianity. I don't know how many atheists you would be able to find who would be able or interested in dissecting Islamic beliefs, but I doubt it would be very many.

[MariaRegina]

Have you ever thought of commissioning the atheists to take on the muslims? They would enjoy the challenge.

Dear friends in Christ:

If you look at those who have converted to islam, I think you will find a lot of disillusioned Christians who have become atheists, only to continue their search into islam. On this board are people who have inquired into many religions including islam before finally coming home to Orthodoxy.

If you suggest such a thread, you will probably be opening the Pandora's box by helping some atheists convert into militant muslims who are very much against Christianity. We don't need jihad.

Atheists live in a self-inflicted void. I'm going to be challenged on this one, but think about it. They do not believe in God who is our source of life and happiness. They must be quite miserable at times thinking that this life is it. No real long term goals -- only temporary -- only now.

Only God can fill our emptiness, but we have to empty ourselves first.

I think the Atheists come here to fill that void with pride, the mother of egotism, and to win over others to their darkness. Have you noticed how they come here and engage in dissipative nonsense which serves to dampen their loneliness and despair? At times they do get sober and reveal their inner turmoil. I feel that they are still on a search and ripe for conversion to islam or Christianity. We must be ready to help them on their search, not make fun of their misery, of which they probably aren't even aware.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elilizabeth

EDIT: Most of these thoughts come from reading the Church Fathers, especially St. Augustine's Confessions. I would highly recommend that you read this book to understand the painful search that people must travel on their road to Christianity.

CORRECTION: Not all atheists come here to deconvert the Christians. Some atheists come here searching - we must give them the benefit of the doubt and welcome them.

[Umut]

Elizabeth, you're right.

I just read this here recently; I think it's on this thread, too. A Saint said Attain inner peace and everyone will be drawn towards you. (or something like that; please correct me if I've said it wrong) Therefore when you talk to an Atheist; I wouldn't recommend saying something like:

'Hey buddy! If I die and there is no God; so be it! I wake up everyday and I'm happy! But if you die and there IS a God; then you're screwed!'

Andreas said he saw that statement on T.V. somewhere.

We should treat Atheists with love and respect; rather than making fun of them. Even when I was Orthodox I made fun of them in conversation; but now I've realized that it was wrong. If I am nice they will look at me and be drawn towards my interests.

Some atheists just cannot admit they're wrong; and they'll try everything in their power to prove us wrong. Andreas said that in the Bible somewhere; it says that Man has the power to prove himself ideas; and some will use it for good and some will use it for bad. In this case Atheists are using it for bad; to prove to themselves that there is no God. There is logic in God, too. They just don't want to bring it out. We shall pray that their hearts will soften and that they will reverse into the love of God.

I've said that Atheists walk with their head down. It is true! But with the love and kindness that they'll see from us in conversation; they might just be interested. We should be sure not to let our mouths speak words of stupidity; therefore not scare them away! They will be filled the infinite love of God. I think deep down Atheists know that God exists; but they just cannot accept that idea.

I was watching a movie in philosophy class today. A group of Christians (the video did not state what sect, that's what scared me the most) were burning the records and CD's of Satanist rock bands because a number of people have committed violent acts after getting fuel from their music. Here we have this group of Christians burning things in hatred and chanting: Lord, Jesus Christ! We do this in your name!

It was awful! I couldn't stand to look at the video... I quickly stated in front of the class that this video should not be misinterpreted; the sect of Christianity was not specified; and I've explained in a calm manner that this is exactly why people are drawn away from religion. Because of this type of stuff that they see. This new generation is rebellious; there isn't much to do except re-build the whole society; which is something we can't do. Therefore all we can do is pray for their souls and pray for their enlightenment. Youth see videos like this and immediately they grow cold to Christianity. They saw in the video that there was a "re-habilitation camp" and at 6 am in the morning they would make the kids who committed wrongful acts and were Satanists get up and pray forcefully. I knew in that moment that the youth just slipped away... Even though I explained the situation I think they immediately rejected it. Unfortunately and OBVIOUSLY the media has gotten to them in a way that we cannot change them. Prayer is the best way to fix the problem. If they do not find the way; we can also pray for their salvation! The Lord knows that they have been brainwashed by the media; and used their free wills wrongfully. The Lord is merciful and will hopefully have mercy on their souls.

Please let us pray for this generation!

[MariaRegina]

Elizabeth, you're right.

I just read this here recently; I think it's on this thread, too. A Saint said Attain inner peace and everyone will be drawn towards you. (or something like that; please correct me if I've said it wrong) Therefore when you talk to an Atheist; I wouldn't recommend saying something like:

'Hey buddy! If I die and there is no God; so be it! I wake up everyday and I'm happy! But if you die and there IS a God; then you're screwed!'

Andreas said he saw that statement on T.V. somewhere.

We should treat Atheists with love and respect; rather than making fun of them. Even when I was Orthodox I made fun of them in conversation; but now I've realized that it was wrong. If I am nice they will look at me and be drawn towards my interests.

Some atheists just cannot admit they're wrong; and they'll try everything in their power to prove us wrong. Andreas said that in the Bible somewhere; it says that Man has the power to prove himself ideas; and some will use it for good and some will use it for bad. In this case Atheists are using it for bad; to prove to themselves that there is no God. There is logic in God, too. They just don't want to bring it out. We shall pray that their hearts will soften and that they will reverse into the love of God.

I've said that Atheists walk with their head down. It is true! But with the love and kindness that they'll see from us in conversation; they might just be interested. We should be sure not to let our mouths speak words of stupidity; therefore not scare them away! They will be filled the infinite love of God. I think deep down Atheists know that God exists; but they just cannot accept that idea.

I was watching a movie in philosophy class today. A group of Christians (the video did not state what sect, that's what scared me the most) were burning the records and CD's of Satanist rock bands because a number of people have committed violent acts after getting fuel from their music. Here we have this group of Christians burning things in hatred and chanting: Lord, Jesus Christ! We do this in your name!

It was awful! I couldn't stand to look at the video... I quickly stated in front of the class that this video should not be misinterpreted; the sect of Christianity was not specified; and I've explained in a calm manner that this is exactly why people are drawn away from religion. Because of this type of stuff that they see. This new generation is rebellious; there isn't much to do except re-build the whole society; which is something we can't do. Therefore all we can do is pray for their souls and pray for their enlightenment. Youth see videos like this and immediately they grow cold to Christianity. They saw in the video that there was a "re-habilitation camp" and at 6 am in the morning they would make the kids who committed wrongful acts and were Satanists get up and pray forcefully. I knew in that moment that the youth just slipped away... Even though I explained the situation I think they immediately rejected it. Unfortunately and OBVIOUSLY the media has gotten to them in a way that we cannot change them. Prayer is the best way to fix the problem. If they do not find the way; we can also pray for their salvation! The Lord knows that they have been brainwashed by the media; and used their free wills wrongfully. The Lord is merciful and will hopefully have mercy on their souls.

Please let us pray for this generation!


In my class in diversity - retranslate brainwashing - the teacher constantly put down Christians and said that we are brainwashing the world with bigotry.
This class was my worst nightmare - Intercultural communication.

[MariaRegina]

I just took a quick glance at the thread listed below, but did not respond -- it's so sad.

Another Christian has just left Christianity -- all because that person tried to convert an atheist - not a wise idea. On that first page two people admit to leaving Christianity recently and the atheists are urging them on.

http://www.christianforums.com/t105927

I think Father Seraphim Rose is right, may his memory be eternal - we should not engage the atheists unless they are asking sincere questions about our faith with the intent of possibly converting -- then and only then, should we engage in a loving dialogue with them.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Christy4Christ]

Here is my two cents. They have NO business here leading our members away from Christ! I urge people to take a good look at what is happening over there. I posted this serveral times in OBOB on a thread called "Confused/trying to understand the logic" the thread has been closed, however, you can look for it a couple of pages back and read it.


It is my honest opinion that they should only be allowed to ask questions and NOT to debate God with us. It is wrong IMO.

The decision is Erwin's in the end but this is how I feel...

[MariaRegina]

Here is my two cents. They have NO business here leading our members away from Christ! I urge people to take a good look at what is happening over there. I posted this serveral times in OBOB on a thread called "Confused/trying to understand the logic" the thread has been closed, however, you can look for it a couple of pages back and read it.


It is my honest opinion that they should only be allowed to ask questions and NOT to debate God with us. It is wrong IMO.

The decision is Erwin's in the end but this is how I feel...

Dear Christy:

The thread over in OBOB was closed at the requiest of the OP. It looks like it had served its purpose. Erwin is doing a marvelous job here and ultimately those who lose their faith do so because of their own folly or pride.

A proper warning was posted in GA, but how many heed it? Perhaps an entrance test should be administered to insure that Christians read the warning. If they pass the test -- and how can you prevent cheating -- and have the sufficient age and posts, then they are allowed in. However, if some weakling in the faith is motivated by pride, how can we stop him?

All we can do is pray. However, some atheists have converted to Christianity here. We win some and we lose some.

Keep up the prayers and don't get discouraged.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Suzannah]

I just took a quick glance at the thread listed below, but did not respond -- it's so sad.

Another Christian has just left Christianity -- all because that person tried to convert an atheist - not a wise idea. On that first page two people admit to leaving Christianity recently and the atheists are urging them on.

http://www.christianforums.com/t105927

I think Father Seraphim Rose is right, may his memory be eternal - we should not engage the atheists unless they are asking sincere questions about our faith with the intent of possibly converting -- then and only then, should we engage in a loving dialogue with them.

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth
I am really beginning to see the wisdom of this. You know what I have decided? When Jesus said, "Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel to all nations" He wasn't talking to me....he was talking to the apostles who obeyed him, and then ordained others to carry on....I have not been ordained as a priest. :P It is not my job , nor is it my responsibility to go around arguing with atheists. It is only my job to be obedient to the Lord, humble and only to be "ready with a gentle answer" per our beloved St. Peter. Being ready with a gentle answer is a far sight from engaging in an argument.

I certainly don't mind chatting with atheists...but the minute it becomes an argument, I am outta there...I had a delightful conversation one day with Sparklecat (an atheist girl) throughout a thread...each one of us would post maybe one or two thoughts back and forth...Like this:

me: Perhaps God is not outside the universe.
her: Where would he be???
me: I don't know! :) But maybe he is closer than we think!
her: how can he be here if he can't stand sin?
me: I don't know! Maybe he is both inside, and outside the universe at the same time! :)

It went on like that for two days and we both had a marvelous time and a great conversation....
Other than pleasant banter, I don't argue with atheists...if some are there to "deconvert" Christians, the mods will have to deal with it.

[katherine2001]

Susannah, I have to agree with a lot of what you said. When I was Baptist, we were pushed to *witness* to people. I was never comfortable doing it and will probably never be. Too often, people attempt to *push* Jesus on people when they aren't ready at that moment. Sometimes, I think it can be done outside of God's timing. If it isn't done at the right time, it can turn people away from Christ rather than towards Him. Of course, part of that may be how He is presented. I think most of us have more than enough to do concentrating on living a Christian life ourselves and working on purifying ourselves (with God's grace, of course--we'd get nowhere without that), as St. Seraphim of Sarov said. If someone asks you about Christ, you speak about Him. But the person is initiating the conversation, not you. In other words, maybe the person is ready to hear about Him, and it isn't being forced on the person because *I* think it's time for them to come to Christ.

[Umut]

Another thing about arguing with Atheist's is...

If I ever were to argue with another Atheist again; I'd tell him/her...

How can I say something to you if you are not willing to listen? You've come here to argue with me; not to listen to me... That usually tends to block them off; or soften them up.

I honestly don't see the point. From now on I won't argue with Atheists... I just hope people will stop falling from Christ...

Do they not realize that the very air they breathe; the very decisions they make; the very apple they eat; the very sights they see is created by a Loving God? Do they not feel the chair they're sitting on? Do they not feel the hat they're wearing? Do they not feel the gloves that touch against their hands? How can they deny God; how can they deny Our Lord; Jesus Christ...

Let us pray for them.

[Umut]

In my class in diversity - retranslate brainwashing - the teacher constantly put down Christians and said that we are brainwashing the world with bigotry.
As much as your teacher deserves to be shot in the knee; I will pray for him...
(just kidding about the shooting part)
:)

[Suzannah]

As much as your teacher deserves to be shot in the knee; I will pray for him...
(just kidding about the shooting part)
:)
LOL!!!

Umut, I didn't realize this thread got so big...I went back and saw some of your other posts that I did not see before....
I think you have a very good grasp of critical thinking and logical tought processes....it is a shame that more adults do not have your ability to move between the "rational" and the "mystical". I think this is truly the key to spirituality: being able to be rational and yet understand the mystery.

I think you brought up some excellent examples of why it is reasonable to believe in God. Unfortunately many people, especially in the West (Europe, America, Canada, Australia, etc.) have become so wrapped up in measuring, quantifying, mathematical thinking, they have lost touch with the ability to think in terms of anything else. Yesterday I was accused by an atheist of being "nonsensical" because I am able to understand the Trinity as it is defined in the creed. Basically this person says that calling it a Mystery is simply a way of escaping the "fact" that it is nonsense. If this same person were to engage in a dialogue with a Buddhist, would they call the Buddhist nonsensical for being unable to measure "nirvana"? I dare say not. I did not respond to the accusation because real Truth means you do not have to respond to anything.

The other night I was in catechumen class and we were talking about the Beatitudes...the words of Jesus when He said, "Blessed are the pure in heart...."
it was explained to us that this means getting to the point in our lives, when we are no longer offensive but at the same time, we are no longer offended by what people say . May I get there someday!!!! :)

[Christy4Christ]

Here's another lovely example of charitable behavior coming from our GA members (before you become thrilled about this lovely testimony, this appears to be a parody meant to make fun of Christians) April fool's is no excuse...

http://www.christianforums.com/t110155&page=1

[Umut]

Thank you, Suzannah!

Andreas has recieved your package. How do I thank you? I cannot thank you with words; therefore, know that I will thank you in prayer! May the Lord bless you Suzannah! As much as I am nothing but a wretched sinner; I would say that you truly deserve Jesus Christ's Kingdom!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christy I've visited that thread; and I was shocked at what I saw and read...

They... well, they need spiritual guidance; that's for sure! :(

[Suzannah]

Thank you, Suzannah!

Andreas has recieved your package. How do I thank you? I cannot thank you with words; therefore, know that I will thank you in prayer! May the Lord bless you Suzannah! As much as I am nothing but a wretched sinner; I would say that you truly deserve Jesus Christ's Kingdom!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christy I've visited that thread; and I was shocked at what I saw and read...

They... well, they need spiritual guidance; that's for sure! :(
Umut,
You are my blessing. I deserve Hell if anything...If I've helped you then I'm really happy...
God bless you!!!
Love,
Your Auntie Suzannah

[Umut]

I'm gonna convert that kid back to Christianity; if it takes me my whole life!

Don't worry; I'll be quite open to suggestions; I'll listen to him; I won't pressure him. I won't let my mouth flood him away from religion!

I've been an Atheist; I know what goes through his head.

[Umut]

After a long time of thinking, I've posted the following in that thread...

I've deleted everything I've written so far. I was quite hesitant whether or not to display what I have written previously. I've decided to say the following:

I can reason with you, I can argue with you, I can tell you things that prove God's existence logically. In fact; if you turn the other way; you can prove to yourself the existence of God through logic and reasoning.

I'm so overwhelmed with thoughts right now; I just want to blurt them all out in an organized manner to get through to you Atheists; but I won't. I'll say this: This is where you choose between God's love; or total emptiness. This 80 years of life... God has created man out of Love; you will only understand his nature after this life. That makes sense because if I could prove to you God's existence than you would have no choice but to follow him. But I will answer your questions about his nature; such as: "If God is all loving; why does he allow us to suffer?" That's just an example; and very easy for me to answer. Please ask away; I am willing to defend my beliefs.

I just ask you kindly to stop trying to convince other people into becoming Atheists. Because they are vulnerable and easily fall into everything that you tell them.

Please, ask away...

I'm so confused about what to say so I'll leave it at that.

[Suzannah]

bravo!!!!! Excellent response!!!

[Plan 9]

The mods here should seriously look at what role the GA forum servers. You can't reason someone to Christ, Christianity is about faith. Unless someone takes the time to develop a personal relationship with God I'm sorry but they are going to be weak in their faith

Pardon me; I'm hope I'm not butting in. (Hi, Elizabeth! :wave)

I just wanted to say that you might revise your opinion after reading Surprised by Joy by C. S. Lewis. I myself was converted primarily through reason: I read C.S. Lewis, J.R.R Tolkien, C.K. Chesterson and Dorothy L. Sayers, all eminent Christians thinkers; all far brighter than I. Their books made all the difference to me.

Bye! :wave:

[MariaRegina]

Pardon me; I'm hope I'm not butting in. (Hi, Elizabeth! :wave)

I just wanted to say that you might revise your opinion after reading Surprised by Joy by C. S. Lewis. I myself was converted primarily through reason: I read C.S. Lewis, J.R.R Tolkien, C.K. Chesterson and Dorothy L. Sayers, all eminent Christians thinkers; all far brighter than I. Their books made all the difference to me.

Bye! :wave:

Welcome back to TAW, Plan 9!

CS Lewis is great. I liked his space trilogy. Couldn't put those books down.

Your friend in Christ,
Elizabeth

[Matthias]

These are strong feelings.

[Niko]

life is a bumby ride. I was found, lost, found, lost, and still found and will be for the rest of my life

[Reader Nilus]

I have found novelists like Fydor Dostoevsky, Graham Greene, Charles Williams, and others better evangelists then most preachers.
Jeff the Finn

[countrymousenc]

I read C.S. Lewis, J.R.R Tolkien, C.K. Chesterson and Dorothy L. Sayers, all eminent Christians thinkers; all far brighter than I. Their books made all the difference to me.



I give those writers much credit for helping lead me toward Orthodoxy - certainly through reason, but even more by "baptizing" my imagination. They are part of the reason I can't be satisfied with anything else.

[Plan 9]

I give those writers much credit for helping lead me toward Orthodoxy - certainly through reason, but even more by "baptizing" my imagination. They are part of the reason I can't be satisfied with anything else.

Yes, I agree. They really afftected on on every possible level; I still marvel at how Sayer's mysteries could do that with no overt mention of God whatsoever.

If it weren't for the miracle reading those books wrought in me, I'd have left Christianity long ago because so many Christians can be unbearably and purposely cruel, and they seem to enjoy it so.

[MariaRegina]

Yes, I agree. They really afftected on on every possible level; I still marvel at how Sayer's mysteries could do that with no overt mention of God whatsoever.

If it weren't for the miracle reading those books wrought in me, I'd have left Christianity long ago because so many Christians can be unbearably and purposely cruel, and they seem to enjoy it so.

Dear Plan 9:

Please come here and visit with us more often. It's always a pleasure to have you on board.

What books are you reading now? And have you ever read CS Lewis' Space Trilogy?

Lovingly in Christ,

Elizabeth

[stray bullet]

I'd have left Christianity long ago because so many Christians can be unbearably and purposely cruel, and they seem to enjoy it so.

I agree. I posted a topic in the Christian only "General Theology" forum a while back and I was absolutely amazed by how I was treated, what I was called and what I was accused of.

If I was a confused teenager that probably would have driven me over the edge right then.

[Photini]

I agree. I posted a topic in the Christian only "General Theology" forum a while back and I was absolutely amazed by how I was treated, what I was called and what I was accused of.

If I was a confused teenager that probably would have driven me over the edge right then.I saw the thread of which you speak. I was really disappointed in many of the replies you got. You were asking a sincere question. I rarely poke my head into that part of the forum because it's so frustrating to ask a question and get piled on with so many different views and opinions.

[stray bullet]

I saw the thread of which you speak. I was really disappointed in many of the replies you got. You were asking a sincere question. I rarely poke my head into that part of the forum because it's so frustrating to ask a question and get piled on with so many different views and opinions.

Actually, most of them seemed to agree, I was going to hell.

That whole section of the site makes me want to run away screaming. I'm glad most Christians with doubts don't bother with that forum.

[Plan 9]

I agree. I posted a topic in the Christian only "General Theology" forum a while back and I was absolutely amazed by how I was treated, what I was called and what I was accused of.

If I was a confused teenager that probably would have driven me over the edge right then.


I know exactly what you mean, and I feel dangerously close to that very edge right now...at may age, too.

I got a one-two punch, really. First from the books I read, and then from these ex-hippies who had become Jesus Freaks. You know, we hippies had done so many reprehensible things (some of which we couldn't remember clearly), we were thankful for the forgiveness and the new start we had gotten, and knew we had neither the right nor the desire to be judgemental toward anyone else.
Plus, we came to Christianity already knowing that what we needed was love, and that life was a journey, adn that what goes around comes around. We didn't expect anyone to arrive the very day they started on the Christian part of it. We were "the generation lost in space with no way home again", because the things that happened while we were growing up were both horrifying and confusing. But we'd been found, after all.

That seems to be over now, and I feel lost in space again.
Or maybe down Alice's rabbit hole, where I have to be careful of all Christians all the time and don't dare trust them, but can count on most non-Christians to treat me with respect, which is pretty amazing considering how other Christians treat them.
The few non-Christians I have have to watch out for are Jerry Springer People, who are a bit demented and very outgoing, so they're easy to spot and avoid.
Christians will kiss you one minute and kick you the next; your Christian landlady will treat you like something stuck to the bottom of her shoe because you're disabled, while the previous non-Christian owners were pretty okay.
I don't know how anyone one gets over this stumbling block now. The hateful Christians who cornered me to tell me I was going to hell frightened me so that I couldn't consider being a Christian for many years, and I don't see I would be able to consider it if I were eighteen now.

[brewmama]

I just want to commend everyone on this thread, it is certainly provocative and food for thought. Umut, you truly amaze me, your maturity and knowledge for your age are astounding.

[MariaRegina]

I know exactly what you mean, and I feel dangerously close to that very edge right now...at may age, too.

I got a one-two punch, really. First from the books I read, and then from these ex-hippies who had become Jesus Freaks. You know, we hippies had done so many reprehensible things (some of which we couldn't remember clearly), we were thankful for the forgiveness and the new start we had gotten, and knew we had neither the right nor the desire to be judgemental toward anyone else.
Plus, we came to Christianity already knowing that what we needed was love, and that life was a journey, adn that what goes around comes around. We didn't expect anyone to arrive the very day they started on the Christian part of it. We were "the generation lost in space with no way home again", because the things that happened while we were growing up were both horrifying and confusing. But we'd been found, after all.

That seems to be over now, and I feel lost in space again.
Or maybe down Alice's rabbit hole, where I have to be careful of all Christians all the time and don't dare trust them, but can count on most non-Christians to treat me with respect, which is pretty amazing considering how other Christians treat them.
The few non-Christians I have have to watch out for are Jerry Springer People, who are a bit demented and very outgoing, so they're easy to spot and avoid.
Christians will kiss you one minute and kick you the next; your Christian landlady will treat you like something stuck to the bottom of her shoe because you're disabled, while the previous non-Christian owners were pretty okay.
I don't know how anyone one gets over this stumbling block now. The hateful Christians who cornered me to tell me I was going to hell frightened me so that I couldn't consider being a Christian for many years, and I don't see I would be able to consider it if I were eighteen now.


Dear Plan 9:

I know the feeling. I have met nominal Christians who are no better than pagans. We must pray for them as Christ will tell them, "I know you not." Then He will send them away. Indeed, they are the ones to be pitied.

That is why we have to focus on the good, on Christ, Who is our life, our strength, our hope, and our all.

Sometimes when we feel discouraged with humanity -- and who hasn't -- that's a good time to curl up and enjoy a good book.

If you'd even consider it: reading the lives of the saints can really help -- these are the biographies of real humans who struggled and conquered. They are examples for us. For example, reading the life of St. Innocent of Alaska was incredible. This holy bishop translated many books into the different Alaskan dialects. He spoke out for justice for the native Alaskans who were being persecuted. He even found time to build a church organ. He also wrote a simple little book to guide the Alaskan natives to sanctity -- a road map home.

Know that I am praying for you and yours.

Lovingly yours in the Risen Lord,

Elizabeth

[Plan 9]

Dear Plan 9:

I know the feeling. I have met nominal Christians who are no better than pagans. We must pray for them as Christ will tell them, "I know you not." Then He will send them away. Indeed, they are the ones to be pitied.

Yes, he'll send them away eventually, but in my more immediate future, I'll be out living under a bridger while my next door sado-masochistic nextdoor neighbor still lives here, aming bullwhips and having loud threesomes because he goes to her church and can pay his rent without the aid of the Housing Authority.

That is why we have to focus on the good, on Christ, Who is our life, our strength, our hope, and our all.

I don't suppose you can tell me the secret of doing that at will? I'm not being sacastic, by the way; I'd really like to know.

Sometimes when we feel discouraged with humanity -- and who hasn't -- that's a good time to curl up and enjoy a good book.

If you'd even consider it: reading the lives of the saints can really help -- these are the biographies of real humans who struggled and conquered. They are examples for us. For example, reading the life of St. Innocent of Alaska was incredible. This holy bishop translated many books into the different Alaskan dialects. He spoke out for justice for the native Alaskans who were being persecuted. He even found time to build a church organ. He also wrote a simple little book to guide the Alaskan natives to sanctity -- a road map home.

I read quite often, and I rapid read, so my librarian is having trouble keeping up with me. I'd like to read about him; would you happen to have a specific title you could recommend that I give her?


Know that I am praying for you and yours.

Thank you, Elizabeth! :)

[MariaRegina]

Yes, he'll send them away eventually, but in my more immediate future, I'll be out living under a bridger while my next door sado-masochistic nextdoor neighbor still lives here, aming bullwhips and having loud threesomes because he goes to her church and can pay his rent without the aid of the Housing Authority.



I don't suppose you can tell me the secret of doing that at will? I'm not being sacastic, by the way; I'd really like to know.



I read quite often, and I rapid read, so my librarian is having trouble keeping up with me. I'd like to read about him; would you happen to have a specific title you could recommend that I give her?




Thank you, Elizabeth! :)


I don't think most libraries would carry these Orthodox titles. However there are online sites -- yet it probably bothers your eyes to read too much on the computer. I'd rather curl up with an old fashioned book than a computer.

Does anyone know of any good biographies?

[Plan 9]

I don't think most libraries would carry these Orthodox titles. However there are online sites -- yet it probably bothers your eyes to read too much on the computer. I'd rather curl up with an old fashioned book than a computer.


If any library in the States has them, she'll order them for me through inter-library loan, so that's no problem.

I have limited sitting time; so reading is what I do during the hours I have to spend lying down every week.

[Photini]

Does anyone know of any good biographies?
A couple of my favorites are:

St. Seraphim of Sarov, A Spiritual Biography by Archimandrite Lazarus Moore from New Sarov Press.

Abbess Thaisia, An Autobiography from St Herman of Alaska Brotherhood Press.
(She was a spiritual daughter of St John of Kronstadt)

My Life in Christ by St. John of Kronstadt

and

Saint Arsenios the Cappadocian by Elder Paisios of Mount Athos.

[Peter Jon]

Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit is a fantastic new book with many short biographies of modern-day Greek elders from Mt Athos. Easily readable, and inspiring.

[Peter Jon]

In response to the question about why Christians forsake the Faith, I can offer only this. Thw way is narrow that leads to life. Christianity is not easy. Faith is not easy. How can we prove faith? The Scholasticism of the West has lead us to believe that things must be thoroughly explained if we are to be responsible Christians. The fact is that some things can only be explained to a point, and then must be left alone, and accepted as beyond our current understanding.
Orthodoxy is Iconic. The Scriptures are an icon into the reality of God's history of Love for mankind, and mankind's rejection of that love. An icon gives us an image of the Truth, but is is not our place to criticize brushstrokes and color tones. If this sounds simplistic, then call me simple. But this seems to be the way the Church has historically viewed the Scriptures: as God's inspired message to us...leave it at that, and soak up the beauty of Truth.
And we must strive to 'acquire the Spirit of peace' as St Seraphim of Sarov says, so that thousands around us may be saved.
- Peter Jon
PeterJon.com

[MariaRegina]

In response to the question about why Christians forsake the Faith, I can offer only this. Thw way is narrow that leads to life. Christianity is not easy. Faith is not easy. How can we prove faith? The Scholasticism of the West has lead us to believe that things must be thoroughly explained if we are to be responsible Christians. The fact is that some things can only be explained to a point, and then must be left alone, and accepted as beyond our current understanding.
Orthodoxy is Iconic. The Scriptures are an icon into the reality of God's history of Love for mankind, and mankind's rejection of that love. An icon gives us an image of the Truth, but is is not our place to criticize brushstrokes and color tones. If this sounds simplistic, then call me simple. But this seems to be the way the Church has historically viewed the Scriptures: as God's inspired message to us...leave it at that, and soak up the beauty of Truth.
And we must strive to 'acquire the Spirit of peace' as St Seraphim of Sarov says, so that thousands around us may be saved.
- Peter Jon