10 Men of Zechariah ~ Nations or Tribes?

[Sephania]

8:23 Thus saith (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0559&version=kjv) the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) of hosts; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06635&version=kjv) In those days (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03117&version=kjv) it shall come to pass, that ten (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06235&version=kjv) men (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0582&version=kjv) shall take hold (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02388&version=kjv) out of all languages (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03956&version=kjv) of the nations, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01471&version=kjv) even shall take hold (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02388&version=kjv) of the skirt (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03671&version=kjv) of him that is a Jew (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03064&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0376&version=kjv), saying (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0559&version=kjv), We will go (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03212&version=kjv) with you: for we have heard (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08085&version=kjv) that God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) is with you.

Now have a look at the word translated as 'hold'

Chazaq
Definition

to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
(Qal)
to be strong, grow strong 1a

to prevail, prevail upon 1a
to be firm, be caught fast, be secure 1a
to press, be urgent 1a
to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense) 1a
to be severe, be grievous


to strengthen

(Piel)


to make strong
to restore to strength, give strength
to strengthen, sustain, encourage
to make strong, make bold, encourage
to make firm
to make rigid, make hard

(Hiphil)


to make strong, strengthen
to make firm
to display strength
to make severe
to support
to repair
to prevail, prevail upon
to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support
to hold, contain


(Hithpael)


to strengthen oneself
to put forth strength, use one's strength
to withstand
to hold strongly with
Now I have highlighted the words that are of interest to me, I hope someone with a full Hebrew understanding comes along, but could this mean more than we originally take it for?

1.Could those 10 men or 10 of mankind be the 10 tribes?
2. Or is this a minyan? ( it does speak of prayer in the preceeding verse.
3. By 'taking hold' and in the sense of repair, could this mean Tikkun Olam?


Previous verse

Yea, many (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07227&version=kjv) people (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=05971&version=kjv) and strong (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06099&version=kjv) nations (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01471&version=kjv) shall come (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0935&version=kjv) to seek (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01245&version=kjv) the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) of hosts (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06635&version=kjv) in Jerusalem, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03389&version=kjv) and to pray (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02470&version=kjv) before (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06440&version=kjv) the LORD. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv)

[Shimshon]

8:23 Thus saith (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0559&version=kjv) the LORD (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03068&version=kjv) of hosts; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06635&version=kjv) In those days (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03117&version=kjv) it shall come to pass, that ten (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=06235&version=kjv) men (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0582&version=kjv) shall take hold (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02388&version=kjv) out of all languages (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03956&version=kjv) of the nations, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=01471&version=kjv) even shall take hold (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=02388&version=kjv) of the skirt (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03671&version=kjv) of him that is a Jew (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03064&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0376&version=kjv), saying (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0559&version=kjv), We will go (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=03212&version=kjv) with you: for we have heard (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=08085&version=kjv) that God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=kjv) is with you.

2. Or is this a minyan? ( it does speak of prayer in the preceeding verse.

Yes, it's a minyon. Representing the minimal number of members needed to conduct business. It also represents the Remnant "out of all languages of the nations".

23 ADONAI-Tzva'ot says, 'When that time comes(acharit hayamim), ten men will take hold(a minyon ready to do business (kadosh and ruach filled)) - speaking all the languages of the nations(having been scattered into all the goyim) - will grab hold of the cloak of a Jew(Yeshua!!! not apostate yisraeli jews of today) and say, "We want to go with you, because we have heard that God is with you."'" (is G-d with Yisrael of today? Is Yeshua in their hearts and are they following his lead? This Jew spoken of is with G-d and we are saying....we want to go with YOU because G-d is with you. Halleluyah Yeshuati!

[Sephania]

So do you think this "take hold of" means ready for Tikkun Olam?

[Sephania]

Do you know the history of the minyan? I mean where is it's origin from? So you think it's not the ten tribes? or is the ten tribes coming out from the nations, those who have found Yeshua and are ready to go up to Yerushalyim with him to the house of the L-RD?

Hums............., Come let us go up, to the mountain of the L-rD to the house of the G-d of Yakov!

[debi b]

1.Could those 10 men or 10 of mankind be the 10 tribes?
2. Or is this a minyan? ( it does speak of prayer in the preceeding verse.
3. By 'taking hold' and in the sense of repair, could this mean Tikkun Olam?


Wow, you put a lot of effort into that :)

1 possibly
2 I am uncomfortable with much of the concept of minyan
3 possibly

What is fascinating to me about Hebrew is that because you look at something this way for example - does not mean that you can not look at it another way as well. With both aspects having some measure of application and validity.

In this verse chazak is in Hiphil both times. (the blessing that is said at the conclusion of each book of Torah "Chazak! Chazak! Venischazeik!" comes from this same word)

I have really appreciated this verse, and found much comfort in it. This is certainly speaking of a time when there is a restoration of what was wrong and it put right and all will see clearly :thumbsup: What is clear is that Adonai has not abondoned His ways in His Torah and is very much interested in establishing what HE wants.

9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout for joy, O daughter of Jerusalem! For behold your king will come to you......

9:11 Also, you, through the blood of your covenant I will have released your prisoners from the pit in which there is no water....

[Shimshon]

So do you think this "take hold of" means ready for Tikkun Olam?
Yes, I believe the taking hold to be the readiness and ability to be gathered.

The perfecting of the world has already begun...it's a process. As our lives are always in the process of becoming kadosh every breath we take. We ARE NOW children of G-d, and what we will become (when completed) we do not comprehend as of yet. But the Ruach is revealing it to us in his set time. And when the set time has come about all things will be fulfilled and we will have perfection.

[Shimshon]

Do you know the history of the minyan? I mean where is it's origin from? So you think it's not the ten tribes? or is the ten tribes coming out from the nations, those who have found Yeshua and are ready to go up to Yerushalyim with him to the house of the L-RD?
Some believe the origins of a Minyan to be when Avraham stopped decreasing his request for G-d to spare s'dom and g'morah at ten "righteous" individuals (b'shet 18)

And yet some hold that the requirement came from the sin of the spies (b'midbar 14:27), in which the ten spies who bring a negative report of the land of Yisrael are referred to as "eidah" or congregation (talmud megillah 23b), though the talmud Yerushalmi (megillah 4,4) relates it to the ten brothers of Yosef who went down to Mitzraim to get food during famine. The quorum of ten men is also refered to in the book of rut 4:2.

I have spoken about my views of the "lost tribes" in another post on this forum. I do not believe in the 10 lost tribes or in the efrayimite 2 house movment in any way. It simply does not play out in scripture. But I do stand on my view of it being a minyan.

[Sephania]

How about scattered?

[Bon]

I have spoken about my views of the "lost tribes" in another post on this forum. I do not believe in the 10 lost tribes or in the efrayimite 2 house movment in any way. It simply does not play out in scripture. But I do stand on my view of it being a minyan.

Hi shimshon,

Can you please direct me to the post about your view of the 'lost tribes'.
I am looking into this subject at the moment.

Thanks and Shalom from Bon

[debi b]

I sure do appreciate the concept of tikkun olam - and there is much I agree with :) Mankind certainly has alot of responsibility in this regard.

But, Yeshua said my kingdom is not of this world......

[Shimshon]

Hi shimshon,

Can you please direct me to the post about your view of the 'lost tribes'.
I am looking into this subject at the moment.

Thanks and Shalom from Bon
i've come to understand the lost sheep as referring to the "remnant" of Yisrael. One can see quite clearly that ones tribal status was still recognized and known in Yeshua's time. Otherwise Shaul's claim to be from the tribe of Benyamin and the prophet Hannah (a woman prophetess no less) stated as being from the tribe of Asher would seem in irony. How could you know your tribal status if the tribes were lost? This even routes out any merit in the 2 house efrayimite movement as they would probably claim that the tribe of Benyamin was not lost....as it was joined with Yehudah and only 10 of the 12 were lost. But Asher was not aligned with the house of Yehudah but Yisrael and well documented as being in the exiles from Yisrael. Not to mention the fact that though all tribes were exiled in time all Yisrael came back and lived in it's own territory as returned exiles..(Ezra..Nechemyah) So in my view the "lost" sheep referred to by Yeshua are in fact the "remnant" which is being made kadosh and gathered just like Yeshua said would happen through his prophets when they spoke of the "remnant Yisrael" (HaShe'ar Yisra'el).

[Sephania]

I sure do appreciate the concept of tikkun olam - and there is much I agree with :) Mankind certainly has alot of responsibility in this regard.

But, Yeshua said my kingdom is not of this world......
Alright Debi, don't leave me hanging, :) are you saying that the millinial kingdom is not going to be on a renewed earth? How will this prophecy play out? Who is this 'One who is a Jew'? and who are they who take hold?

Please share! :pray:

[debi b]

Tikkun Olam: Perfecting the World

Isaac Luria, the renowned sixteenth century Kabbalist, used the phrase “tikkun olam,” usually translated as repairing the world, to encapsulate the true role of humanity in the ongoing evolution of the cosmos. In his view, God created the world by forming vessels of light to hold the Divine Light. But as God poured the Light into the vessels, they catastrophically shattered, tumbling down toward the realm of matter. Thus, our world consists of countless shards of the original vessels entrapping sparks of the Divine Light. Humanity’s great task involves helping God by freeing and reuniting the scattered Light, raising the sparks back to Divinity and restoring the broken world. (quoted from Inner Frontier)

The basic concept of making the world a better place is certainly something that believers should be involved in. It is deeply embedded in the ethic of Judaism. I am not convinced that the Kingdom Yeshua was talking about is equatable to the concept of tikkun olam (I could be wrong :) ) There is a difference between Ezekiel's Temple and the Temple that John saw. We want so very much to put things in nice neat packages. Sometimes only with the benefit of hindsight does it become that.

2 Tim 4:13
When you come...bring the scrolls, especially the parchments.

I get the idea that Paul didn't think he had it all figured out yet. He still had things to learn. I don't suppose I am any different.