Why Christianity and Judaism are BOTH wrong

[Sephania]

Interesting parallels

Major Errors of Historical Christianity and Judaism
(http://www.messianic.com/articles/errors.htm)

Is Messianic Judaism the "Middle of the Road"?

[visionary]

There is one thing about the pendulum swing, we could swing either way also and miss the boat.

[Shimshon]

I've used the analogy of the pendullum many times here. As I see it G-d's plum line is not a pendullum that it should swing. :thumbsup:

[CelineDion]

When i read the top of this thread i gasped. I couldnt believe you said that. Im not missing the boat..Im a born again believer in Christ Im not missing the boat im just missing hell.

[sojeru]

judaism is ofcourse not wrong in any way shape or form.
there is no "middle of the road"
One can follow true orthodox judaism and still hold faithful obedience to Yeshuah the Messiah as an orthodox Jew.

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Wow, quite interesting. There are things on that site that I did not know, thats for posting Zayit!

[Sephania]

Sojeru you disagree that all the things listed that Judaism has done are incorrect? These two charts show how both 'sides' are in the wrong. For example
if it is OK for Talmud to be on equal footing with Torah then same holds that all Church writings do as well. Then what do you have???? One big mess that is far from the truth.

Celine, did you read the link?

[visionary]

I've used the analogy of the pendullum many times here. As I see it G-d's plum line is not a pendullum that it should swing. :thumbsup:
It is true that a plum line is not suppose to swing, but in the wrong hands it is not stationary to the true.

[sojeru]

haha,
there is something that you have no understanding of Zayit.
I just stated that Judaism is right in all ways.
However, if you want to debate- lets take it to the Jewish discussion forum.
Its your call.

[Shimshon]

judaism is ofcourse not wrong in any way shape or form.
there is no "middle of the road"
One can follow true orthodox judaism and still hold faithful obedience to Yeshuah the Messiah as an orthodox Jew.
o.k. I'm confused then. If orthodox Judaism vehemently passionatly and resoundingly says Yeshua is NOT who he said he was. And more defines anyone who does as NEVER having the status as orthodox Jew. How do you beleive or contest that you can "still hold faithful obedience to Yeshua as an "orthodox Jew"? Is this not an oxymoron?

[Sephania]

haha,
there is something that you have no understanding of Zayit.
I just stated that Judaism is right in all ways.
However, if you want to debate- lets take it to the Jewish discussion forum.
Its your call.

Well if you are speaking of Biblical VS Rabbinical then yes, but the site was speaking of Rabbinical.

As far as debate, this post of yours already crossed the line;


judaism is ofcourse not wrong in any way shape or form.
there is no "middle of the road"
One can follow true orthodox judaism and still hold faithful obedience to Yeshuah the Messiah as an orthodox Jew.
And laughing at me and telling me I have no understanding is also another breach of the rules, try posting in love, not arrogance. ;)

You stated first that Judaism was not wrong in any 'shape or form' yet you then reiterate with "True Orthodox Judaism' which differentiates between any 'shape or form'. If not then you are saying that the gay Orthodox or the Humanism Judaism is all one and the same? I don't think so. What you are speaking of is True Biblical Judaism which is what I belive Messianic Judaism should be. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do so to help, not deride.

[CelineDion]

Im out of this discussion. I am born again im going to heaven the end.

[sojeru]

no, I'm Rabbinic,
I have already begun a rebuttal against the article on my forums.

And Shimshon- yes I am of the sephardic right, Orthodox, and know that Yeshuah is Mashiach.
And I am given permission from the Jewish community to follow Yeshuah and still be a practicing jew in orthodox judaism.

Poriel

[Sephania]

Im out of this discussion. I am born again im going to heaven the end.Perhaps that's best Celine. No one said you were'nt going to heaven, I dont' know where on earth you got that idea. If you have a problem with what was posted about how Chrisitinity didn't get it right and you believe that what is listed that the Church has done is correct then you really shouldn't be wearing that Torah scroll. You are the one who choose to use it yet in everything I see you post goes against what it stands for.:scratch:

It seems that you confused the OP with visionarys comment. No one said you missed the boat, that was her analogy of what I posted, it was no personal comment about you, why would you take it as such? Are things not going well with you? :pray:

[sojeru]

also, Zayyit when I said that you misunderstood- and that you have no understanding of -- as i said, "there is SOMETHING that you have no understanding of"

I did not say that you over-all have no understanding.

So, instead of taking what I said as it being said in arrogance, you should have just asked:)
I have a fault, that fault is that I say things in order that people should question- I dont like to just go ahead and give it.

So if you would like to know what , in my humble opinion, you dont have an understanding of- just ask, I'll give it to you if you want it.

Poriel

[Sephania]

Ok, my friends! :)
Let's all remember that this is a discussion thread and we are here to discuss our opinions on the topic... there's no need to make it a personal issue.
Just a friendly reminder from your local neighborhood Ambassador...
WOW, We have a neighborhood Ambassador! We are mighty special ( and appreciative! ) . Thanks for the reminder P4I, :hug: we will try to behave. :sorry:

[Shimshon]

no, I'm Rabbinic,
I have already begun a rebuttal against the article on my forums.

And Shimshon- yes I am of the sephardic right, Orthodox, and know that Yeshuah is Mashiach.
And I am given permission from the Jewish community to follow Yeshuah and still be a practicing jew in orthodox judaism.

Poriel
Nachon? I've not heard of such permission given by orthodoxy. Just what "community" are you refering to? I would be interested in some information regarding there acceptance of Mashiach. v'shalom chaveri Ani ashkenazi

[CelineDion]

Sorry for my attitude.

[Sephania]

also, Zayyit when I said that you misunderstood- and that you have no understanding of -- as i said, "there is SOMETHING that you have no understanding of"

I did not say that you over-all have no understanding.

So, instead of taking what I said as it being said in arrogance, you should have just asked:)
I have a fault, that fault is that I say things in order that people should question- I dont like to just go ahead and give it.

So if you would like to know what , in my humble opinion, you dont have an understanding of- just ask, I'll give it to you if you want it.

Poriel
Thank you Antonio, yes, I am aware of your posting style, but sometimes it does come off rather abrasive. I am well aware that there are many things I don't have understanding of, if I knew everything there would be no reason to live, I live to learn and my greatest subject :bow: is HaShem and all that entails. I can't get enough, nor if I lived to be Methuselah's age would I still ever think I have. Your post intrigues me though as I have never heard of this 'sect' of Judaism so do tell.

One thing I will say is that many sects of Judism ( if not all as you contend) are still looking for the appearence of Messiah, so that would be a big difference in that they don't have it all right, wouldn't it?

NU, what is it that I don't have an understanding of? Help me learn, I am always hungry.

[CelineDion]

Im sorry if i hurt you.

[Sephania]

Things are fine with me. I dont go against my scroll dear. But you are so rude and think you know everything. Everytime i come on this forum you beat me down. I will wear this torah scrolll and you will be doing nothing to stop it because i honor all the things the Torah does. But you know the more i get to know people to like you the less I want to keep on bieng messianic and go back to christianity at least the people are kind and loving. You arent. So Im going to revert to what my God daughter says to her brother " Just leave me alone!"
:sigh:

[Sephania]

*calms* Im sorry i offeneded you but im sick of leaving here in tears. If you hate me say it now. It seems to me that the people on these forums...our brothers and sisters and the meaniest concieveable people ever. We all need a new heart..me, you and everyone else on here. We should raise each other up not knock each other down. HaSHem never meant for it to be this way.
I agree wholeheartedly, my goal has never been to offend you Celine, I am truly sorry that you take it that way. One thing we all must be aware of is that many come here, lurkers to learn and form opinons by what we write. If a person showing the Torah scroll posts something on the subject of say Kosher that you follow all Yeshuas commandments but that and then proceeded to tell us that we were all wrong and you were going to show us the light what will they think of MJ? This is what we must be aware of, we are to be a light, and witness, we have to make sure that witness isn't false and if we see someone giving wrong information or not having understanding we need to correct them, its Biblical, in the Apostolic Writings.

I just don't see how one can defend Christianity while claiming to be Messianic. :confused:

[sojeru]

ok,
well,
first off
Shimshon and yourself, Zayit are wondering about who I am and who my community is.
I will not get into detail until the day that my community has grown rather well.
We have been slowly establishing ourselves in the U.S. and our talmidim our dispersed all over the world due to financial circumstances.
Also we are now building a community(of stones) that will allow for our talmidim to join the community( of flesh).
however, you can get to know just a little of who we are by reading here:
http://invisionfree.com/forums/brokenword/index.php?showtopic=383

So, again- I am not at liberty to disclose how we are recognized. We(you) are only at liberty to test what we teach with what everyone else in Judaism (more specifically of the Sephardic Spanish-Portugese rite) teaches and see how it is one.

Zayit, you said:
One thing I will say is that many sects of Judism ( if not all as you contend) are still looking for the appearence of Messiah, so that would be a big difference in that they don't have it all right, wouldn't it?

Well, even though my community knows and follows Yeshuah the Messiah, we are still looking for the appearance of Mashiach ben David as the rest of the Jewish community. The only difference in our awaiting is that we know how to initiate his coming. And when this is done- we know that it is His Majesty Yeshuah that will be arriving.
There is much difference between the kind of Messiah that Yeshuah is now and the kind of Messiah he will be when he arrives.

We teach that
*Yeshuah was the Messiah of the gentiles.
*Yeshuah was not a prophet in the same degree as Moshe.
nor in the same degree as the "minor" prophets.
Yeshuah was a much lesser kind of Prophet- Tanna and a Rabbi.
*Yeshuah IS CURRENTLY not the Messiah of the Jews- but will be.

this is only a brief list though.

You also asked:
what is it that I don't have an understanding of?
I will just tell you and later get to details if you wish.
The details are on my forums in the Rebuttal to that article.
However, what you don't understand is how the sages and their writting and why they have such a high degree in Judaism and also how Yeshuah was not actually spoken against in the Talmud and also how Yeshuah teaches that authority belongs to the Rabbis not the christian world.
In fact, it is Judaism that started this with Moses and down the line.
but all of this is on my article.

shalom u'berachot,
Poriel

[Shimshon]

Ah yes, the Chassidic Lubavitch. Ba'al Shem Tov The reason this movment is accepted by orthodoxy is it does not see Yeshua as he defined himself. But as redefined by the "rebbe". They take the stance that Yeshua was given to the goyim as a prophet of G-d but he is not the Mashiach.



sojeru, I do believe you misrepresented yourself in the claim that “One can follow true orthodox judaism and still hold faithful obedience to Yeshuah the Messiah as an orthodox Jew.”

As he Chabad Lubavitch does not "hold faithful obedience to Yeshua HaMashiach" Not according to Yeshua. He said he was the Mashiach...not just for the goy but L'olam. His sacrifice was testified to as taking away the sins of the world..not just the nations.

[sojeru]

You can believe that I have but I have said that I am not at liberty to discuss nor disclose this information with you.

And it has nothing to do the chassidic view though what they say about Yeshuah is correct.
However, that isn't at all what I was reffering too.

So you are mistaken. Please no putting of words in mouth.

[ShirChadash]

*Yeshuah was not a prophet in the same degree as Moshe.
nor in the same degree as the "minor" prophets.
Yeshuah was a much lesser kind of Prophet- Tanna and a Rabbi.


:eek: :help: :sigh:

[Shimshon]

And it has nothing to do the chassidic view though what they say about Yeshuah is correct.
However, that isn't at all what I was reffering too.

So you are mistaken. Please no putting of words in mouth.
sojeru...in a previous post you inserted a link to another forum where you said your views would be discussed (not revealed albeit). I read the post you made on that forum and in it you mentioned your stance on the Chassidim, Orthodox, and Messanic Judaim. Your stance seemed to be that of the Chabad's. And since you used this link in reference to your beliefs...I assumed this was your stance. I have no intention of doing anything with your mouth much less putting words in it :sigh:

[Shimshon]

And it has nothing to do the chassidic view though what they say about Yeshuah is correct.
However, that isn't at all what I was reffering too.
And even if your belief has nothing to do with the chassidic view. By claiming "what they say about Yeshua is correct". You do infact endorse and "believe" what they do. Even if it may not be in full.

However, if your belief has nothing to do with the chassidic lubavitch. Why then did you direct us here to that post? if it had nothing to do with your belief?

[sojeru]

Shimshon, what you did looks alot like putting words in my mouh, but ok- i can see that this was not your intention.

but yes, what I linked you too was a place that would inform you a littleabout my community. And yes there is some information on other sects aswell.

and on the forums is a thread in which I have begun to rebutt the article that begun this thread.
It wont be finished until a little while- I have much work ahead of me.

and I have other articles to finish.

[sojeru]

everythijgs good!

[Shimshon]

and on the forums is a thread in which I have begun to rebutt the article that begun this thread.
It wont be finished until a little while- I have much work ahead of me.

and I have other articles to finish.
sojeru, I understand. I will have more patience with you :) . And thank you for understanding that I have no ill intent toward you.

b'shalom
Shimshon

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Group hug...

* Pray4Isrel sits back with a dreamy look in her eyes and says "I just love happy endings"

:groupray: LOL- why is it that I am always ending up in your arms Erin? :P

[ShirChadash]

:groupray: LOL- why is it that I am always ending up in your arms Erin? :P

Ahem, I thought you were the green dude and Erin is Pink? I get to be orange -- well I prefer blue but I figure with all you pouty males running around, one of you snagged the blue already, and I don't wanna be yellow. So HOW you figger you're ending up in Erin's arms, Buddy???

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Ahem, I thought you were the green dude and Erin is Pink? I get to be orange -- well I prefer blue but I figure with all you pouty males running around, one of you snagged the blue already, and I don't wanna be yellow. So HOW you figger you're ending up in Erin's arms, Buddy???

:sorry: Um...yeah...ahem...so... :idea: *runs like heck outta the room*

[ShirChadash]

Keep it up and I'll tell yer hubby, Buddy!

*shakes matronly finger*

[talmidim]

Interesting parallels

Major Errors of Historical Christianity and Judaism
(http://www.messianic.com/articles/errors.htm)

Is Messianic Judaism the "Middle of the Road"?Shalom Zayit,
Perhaps the question should be, "Is Messianic Judaism the "Middle Of the Narrow Path to the Even Narrower Gate"? Hmmm...

[Shimshon]

Shalom Zayit,
Perhaps the question should be, "Is Messianic Judaism the "Middle Of the Narrow Path to the Even Narrower Gate"? Hmmm...
I agree with this persepective of MJ Talmidim...nicely put.

[Sephania]

Shalom Zayit,
Perhaps the question should be, "Is Messianic Judaism the "Middle Of the Narrow Path to the Even Narrower Gate"? Hmmm...
Shabbat Shalom talmidi, I like that, I think that on this thread though we need to get back onto an even narrower path.;)

After all this perhaps the question should have been, Is Messianic Judaism any better than these extremes? Is she a happy medium or still diluted from both sides?

[talmidim]

Shabbat Shalom talmidi, I like that, I think that on this thread though we need to get back onto an even narrower path.;)

After all this perhaps the question should have been, Is Messianic Judaism any better than these extremes? Is she a happy medium or still diluted from both sides?Yes my brother, but we are to neither judge nor to invite to doubtful disputation. Nudge, encourage and exemplify remembering that on that day, we stand alone in His presense. The path He spoke of is only wide enough for one at a time.

b'Shalom Zayit
talmidim

[Sephania]

Good thoughts talmidim, BTW though Zayit is a Talmidah ;) ( See my headcovering and long sleeved shirt and my girlie commando? ) :)

[talmidim]

Good thoughts talmidim, BTW though Zayit is a Talmidah ;) ( See my headcovering and long sleeved shirt and my girlie commando? ) :)Groveling he wispers "I'm soooo stupid. Forgive me?" :doh: ...and then does the blonde high-five!

[GreenEyedLady]

I read the link.
I have to say that some of the listings under Christianity would not fit every protestant denomination. Not all of the Christian churches particpate in Good Friday, or Christmas etc.
Anyway, it was an intresting link
GEL

[Sephania]

Groveling he wispers "I'm soooo stupid. Forgive me?" :doh: ...and then does the blonde high-five! :eek: How did you know I was blonde? ;)

Don't worry most think the same way about me, now I hope this won't change the way you view my posts now.:blush: I post with the mind and heart that HaShem graced me with, my perspective maybe different but I am learning about you Martians more everyday! :D