Who's Jewish?

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Hello again, I was chatting with P4I and I asked her How do you determine if your Jewish? She did not have a very definate answer, so now I turn to you guys, How do you determine if you are jewish? I heard that if your mother was, then you are? Then I heard that as long as one of your parents/grandparents were jewish that makes you jewish. So, where is the line drawn?

[Talmidah]

Being born of a Jewish mother or undergoing a halachic conversion.

[Shimshon]

Hello again, I was chatting with P4I and I asked her How do you determine if your Jewish? She did not have a very definate answer, so now I turn to you guys, How do you determine if you are jewish? I heard that if your mother was, then you are? Then I heard that as long as one of your parents/grandparents were jewish that makes you jewish. So, where is the line drawn?
This is a hotly debated topic in Jewish theology. I will start by quoting Shaul and state first that, "the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical. 29On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God."

This is the 'biblical" stance on who is a jew. And mine as well if you could not tell (outward vs. inward). This stance sees "Judaism" as anyone (Hebrew or Goy) who follows Torah the way it was intended. We see ONE olive tree with many branches. (the tree is Remnant Yisrael in my opinion).

Messianic Judaism states
We recognize that Jewish people (physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob, whether through the mother's or the father's blood-line) who place their faith in Israel's Messiah, Yeshua, continue to be Jewish according to the Scriptures. Gentiles who place their faith in Yeshua, are "grafted into" the Jewish olive tree of faith becoming spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham.

Remember, Gentiles at it's root meaning implies "nations". Not a lesser being...only one who was not Hebrew. (how evil is it to be blessed by the All Mighty by having him chose us as his very own and then because of that choice we in turn treat others as lesser beings because of it?)

I see Messianic Judaism claiming the right thing. But, I've seen many varying congregational observances. Some hold to christian ways and only toy with their "jewish roots" and some on the other side of the pendjulum take their jewish roots all to seriously and enter into the very same legalism of the prushim. Again I say, the plumline falls in the middle.

Orthodox Judaism states you are only Jewish if your mother was born Jewish (maternal bloodline). And yet even more confusion ensues when you try and determine their stance on "national judaism" and "spiritual judaism".

It seems your a jew if your mother was...and if you take up buddism or even islam...your still considered a jew because of your blood. Likewise, if your father was jewish but your mother wasn't, and you deside to "convert" and follow (spiritual) Judaism you will be accepted with open arms. But, if a jew with two jewish parents claims faith in Yeshua, all of asudden they seem to say your bloodline is nullified and you are NOT a jew at all. :wave: (that would be me)

it would be well to note that Avraham who was not given Torah on Mt Sinai knew just who Melchizedek was and just how much to "tithe" to him. (but do you think Adonai was forgiving to Avraham when he fixed him some meat, milk and cheese to eat before he destroyed s'dom and g'mora? b'rshet 18:8):holy:

[Nossa-the-Lame]

I was told by one source, that as long as one of your parents was jewish, then you are considered a jew. I also heard that even if youy are not blood related to your parents(like myself) that you are still considered a jew.

Does it say in the bible anything about this topic?

[Talmidah]

I was told by one source, that as long as one of your parents was jewish, then you are considered a jew.
Among Jews, only the Reform movement declared in the early '80s that a person would be considered Jewish if either of their parents were Jewish AND they were being raised as a Jew. Neither the Orthodox nor Conservative accept this decision.

I also heard that even if youy are not blood related to your parents(like myself) that you are still considered a jew.
Jewish heritage is based on your blood parent. If your birth mother is Jewish and you were adopted by non-Jewish parents (and you had proof of your birth-mother's status), you would be accepted as a Jew by both the Orthodox and the Conservative. If your birth mother is a non-Jew and you were adopted by a Jewish couple, you would not be considered a Jew unless you go through conversion. Most Jewish couples who adopted non-Jewish babies (or those whose origin is unknown) have their children go through conversion upon the adoption being complete.

[Shimshon]

Everybody...sing along!!


Jew and Gentile One in Messiah, One in Yeshua, One in the Olive Tree.

Jew and Gentile One in Yeshua's Love......OHHHHHH

Help us Father to love one another with humble hearts forgiving each other.

Heal our wounds bind us together so the world might believe!!!

Jew and Gentile One in Messiah, One in Yeshua, One in the Olive Tree.

Jew and Gentile are One in Yeshua's Love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One in Yeshua's Love!!!!:hug: :clap:

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Everybody...sing along!!


Jew and Gentile One in Messiah, One in Yeshua, One in the Olive Tree.

Jew and Gentile One in Yeshua's Love......OHHHHHH

Help us Father to love one another with humble hearts forgiving each other.

Heal our wounds bind us together so the world might believe!!!

Jew and Gentile One in Messiah, One in Yeshua, One in the Olive Tree.

Jew and Gentile are One in Yeshua's Love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One in Yeshua's Love!!!!:hug: :clap:

:clap:

Hey I got a song, everyone sing along!

This is my song....
...It's not very long!

:clap:

What? That was it, you were expecting more?

[Talmidah]

OK.... :sigh:

[ShirChadash]

If you believe Yeshua was saying there are now no more Jews and no more gentiles -- at all -- and there is no difference between us now that Messiah came, then you must also believe Yeshua said there are no more men and women -- at all -- and there is no difference between us now that Messiah came... Also that there are now no longer slaves (great news for those who have been or are still enslaved, because hey someone should tell them they can just up and walk out really, because there ARE no slaves anymore :D ;) )

No, what Yeshua was saying is that IN HIM, there is no respecting of persons... men are not more acceptable to G-d than women, slaves are not inferior in G-d's eyesin comparison to those who are free, and gentiles are acceptable to G-d and not "unclean" as long as we obey His Word (which washes us from uncleanly living/practices/idolatry etc.).

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Thanks all! I knew that in yeshua we are all one, I was just curious how you could be considered Jewish, not that it makes a real difference.

[Shimshon]

If you believe Yeshua was saying there are now no more Jews and no more gentiles -- at all -- and there is no difference between us now that Messiah came, then you must also believe Yeshua said there are no more men and women -- at all -- and there is no difference between us now that Messiah came... Also that there are now no longer slaves (great news for those who have been or are still enslaved, because hey someone should tell them they can just up and walk out really, because there ARE no slaves anymore :D ;) )

No, what Yeshua was saying is that IN HIM, there is no respecting of persons... men are not more acceptable to G-d than women, slaves are not inferior in G-d's eyesin comparison to those who are free, and gentiles are acceptable to G-d and not "unclean" as long as we obey His Word (which washes us from uncleanly living/practices/idolatry etc.).
Zemirah, I'm sure you can list scores of differences between each catagory you listed. Yet my point is. (and i'll start it in good jewish fashion...with a question) Are you then saying that the body of Messiah functions by different standards within it's diverse make-up? (I dont' think you do) My point is yes we are jew and goy but is not the remnant One body? the bride One body? the body of Messiah ...One? Obviously yes. But One how?

One in that we all come to G-d in the same way. By the atoning sacrifce of Yeshua. Because of this we receive his Ruach. And it teaches us and keeps us from the evil one. In this way we are all the same. Yehudim see the futility in trying to observe their way into the precense of G-d and Goyim see the grace and mercy of an ever-loving G-d who would take them as his own even though they were not. Both are walking the way Yeshua did.....and following his teaching and leading (Ruach). Both are no different in G-d's sight...both are equally sharing the inheritance he promised his children Remnant Yisrael.

Talmidah, I'm sorry if you saw my expression of joy and song on this subject as disheartening. It was not my intent to make any jabs upon anyone. I do enjoy your feedback in this forum. :)

b'shalom
Shimshon

[ShirChadash]

Zemirah, I'm sure you can list scores of differences between each catagory you listed. Yet my point is. (and i'll start it in good jewish fashion...with a question) Are you then saying that the body of Messiah functions by different standards within it's diverse make-up? I'm saying individuals are different from one another. But G-d is no respector of those differences as pertains to our acceptability to Him, in other words, in terms of salvation. Not sure what anyone else has brought up, but I am simply saying that just because we are all equally acceptable before the L-rd does not in any way negate our differences, nonetheless, as individual believers.

[Nossa-the-Lame]

LOL!!! Thanks!

I didn't mena that in a bad way, I meant we couldn't get a certain answer....you know what I mean!!!!!! :blush:

[Talmidah]

Talmidah, I'm sorry if you saw my expression of joy and song on this subject as disheartening. It was not my intent to make any jabs upon anyone.
No problem. I am familiar with that song and understand where you're coming from. I was just trying to explain to the Jason the traditional answer to "Who is a Jew". :)

[Shimshon]

I'm saying individuals are different from one another.
Agreed, but are we not identical in the way we enter heaven (presence of G-d)? Yeshua and his Ruach living in us.

But G-d is no respector of those differences as pertains to our acceptability to Him, in other words, in terms of salvation.
It makes no difference if we were born jewish or goyim, wheather female or male, black, brown, yellow, red, one arm, no feet, no hair, it all makes no difference to salvation, correct.



Not sure what anyone else has brought up, but I am simply saying that just because we are all equally acceptable before the L-rd does not in any way negate our differences, nonetheless, as individual believers.
As individual believers. An awesome term to make a midrash on "echad" a complex unity. A group of individuals (jews, goyim) with a unified belief(Yeshua and his Ruach living in us).

We are all individuals...yes...but our Ruach is "Idendical" One Ruach in us all. Doing the work he was send to do. Bring us into the fulfillment of Yeshau's words.

[Shimshon]

No problem. I am familiar with that song and understand where you're coming from. I was just trying to explain to the Jason the traditional answer to "Who is a Jew". :)
Talmidah...and I do beleive you did an outstanding job a doing so. :)

[Nossa-the-Lame]

Oh it's all good! :hug:
But it sure did me a good laugh after I about spit out the water I was drinking!!!

^_^ ^_^ wait...I shouldn't be laughing....but I am! ^_^

[Talmidah]

Talmidah...and I do beleive you did an outstanding job a doing so.
Thank you very much :)

[ShirChadash]

Agreed, but are we not identical in the way we enter heaven (presence of G-d)? Yeshua and his Ruach living in us.


It makes no difference if we were born jewish or goyim, wheather female or male, black, brown, yellow, red, one arm, no feet, no hair, it all makes no difference to salvation, correct.



As individual believers. An awesome term to make a midrash on "echad" a complex unity. A group of individuals (jews, goyim) with a unified belief(Yeshua and his Ruach living in us).

We are all individuals...yes...but our Ruach is "Idendical" One Ruach in us all. Doing the work he was send to do. Bring us into the fulfillment of Yeshau's words.
:wave: I was simply addressing an all-too-common error (not saying you hold it, or even mentioned it, just saying I know it is rampant within the church) that those who are gentile believers are suddenly, "spiritually" *Jews* and also this is usually put forth by those who casually say "there are no longer Jew and Gentile in Messiah" and then proceed to utterly misconstrue what this means, in reality.

As a gentile, I can say, no sir I am not a Jew. I am learning and embracing JUDAISM -- the religion, the "Way" of my Messiah, and the faith of Yeshua is JUDAISM that believes; thankfully, one needn't be a Jew by blood or conversion to learn and study and live according to JUDAISM ;)

*but* the fact that I have Yeshua and His Ruach does not in any way make me a Jew. Also, since Yeshua is Torah is Yeshua is Torah is Yeshua is Torah (heard that recently enough from me? :sorry: :D ) I'll tell you I fully believe that Jews who follow Torah out of faith in and love for G-d, those Jews have both Yeshua and His Spirit, whether they know "Yeshua" to be His personal name yet, or not. Just my personal stand and .02

*heads to the cafe... I need some serious coffee. When the English teacher can't spell addressing right to save her day... you know coffee is called-for! :doh: *

[Shimshon]

one needn't be a Jew by blood or conversion to learn and study and live according to JUDAISM ;) *
Halleluyah!! Correct otherwise King David would not be from the tribe of Yehudah. As his great grandmother Rut was a moavite. And his great grandfather Bo'az, well he was mothered by Rachav (mt 1:5) the prostitute of Yericho (Yosh 2,6). Seems the man after G-d's own heart was quite mixed with goyishim blood. Oh yes,,,,yes yes, conversion. So now a goy can convert to "judaism" ONLY if he does not believe what G-d told us in Torah. That he himself will rent the heavens with his holy arm, come down to tread upon his holy mountian and gather his sheep himself. Seems you can be a jew even if you are a secular zionist that only cares about the formation of a kingly state while rejecting all of Torah as passe. But if you follow Torah to it's full intent you are not even Jewish. I've said it before and I'll say it again. They can have the term "Jew, Jewish" G-d knows what a true Yehudi is (praiser of G-d). He knows the hearts of mankind. He knows who is his children, sheep, friends, lovers, and who is not. Our hearts are open to him at all times. So fine...to them i'm not a Jew (even though I was born that way). I see more merit in being known as Hebrew or Yisraeli. I even come from the tribes of Yehudah and Dan...but hey that acredits nothing to my salvation. I am saved by Yeshuati.

*but* the fact that I have Yeshua and His Ruach does not in any way make me a Jew.*
Correct, not one by blood, but one by faith and thus considered part of the Olive Tree, His Body, the Remnant of Yisrael. Or was Rut not a Jew?...David for that matter?

Judaism is not following G-d the way the prushim distinguish. It's following G-d by the way Yeshua distinguished it. By the Ruach that was given to you. Do what he instructed and you are a true praiser of G-d (Yehudi). Or was Avraham a "Hebrew" before he left the Kasdim? No he was a Kasdi. A Chaldean...a Babelonian. He was called....he followed unwaiveringly.....he was then known as Tzedik, Righteous. No longer a goy but a Tzedik in G-d's sight. Because he did exactly what he was ordered without questioning in his heart (unbelief....lack of faith).

Does modern day Judaism follow Yeshua? Outwardly they are trying to follow the way they were shown when they were babies. Thinking it will satisfy G-d now that they are supposed to be grown children of El Shaddai. But in fact they are parading themselves infront of Shaddai dressed in their baby diapers, placing themsevles under the rule of the custodian when in fact they are grown and able to inherit the true blessing. HaShem living in you. One on One.

[Sephania]

So you are promoting Goyim Circumcision sojeru? Wouldnt' that make goyim heirs in the land too?

I believe that there is a bride and guests at the wedding. Is every one that believes in Yeshua his bride? Or is he marrying the same woman all over again, one who has washed herself and is no longer Tame?

The blood of Yeshua is Tahor, and the only one that is and gives life, we all wash in that same blood which washes away our uncleaness, our contamination. But he still says that there is a Bride and guests at the wedding.

[Sephania]

Yeshuah himself was born of Jewish parents..
So he is Jewish.



Actually he was born of one Jewish parent ( of flesh) , and HaShem (of the Spirit), which perfectly lines up with his teaching to Nicodimus that you must be born twice, by flesh and then Spirit, he was the only one that happened at the same time.

[wackyjo]

Not me

[Shimshon]

Is not the tree Yisrael? Yeshua is the vine and we are the branches "Netzarim" (the term used in refering to Messianic beleivers of Yeshua's time). And if the Yeshua is the living Torah and we are partakers in his life as branches to a vine. Then we "Remnant" Yisrael are the tree. With Yeshua our root, the Root of David.

sojeru, when you describe the tree you call it a "Jewish" tree. And it seems to me that you only see it in fleshly physical ways. Not with eyes of the Ruach as Zayit showed by identifying that Yeshua was infact physically born HALF Jew (physically) and HALF G-d (Ruach). But I do not like the way that sounds. It would be better defined as the Ruach living in a Man.

In my opinion to focus on the physical nature of his being and in the process negate the spritual nature is doing what the prushim have done for centuries.

Yes he was born Yehudi, physically. But he was also as Zayit identified, the first one to be born by both flesh AND Ruach. A NEW creature. G-d dwelling IN man. Man dwelling within G-d. This in my opinon is the "olive tree of life" that lives forever knowing both good and evil being like G-d planted by rivers of living water. The tree is not merely a "Jewish" tree. It's the Tree of Life planted by G-d in his garden. And it is Tov Kadosh and glorifies G-d forever.