Torah Observance

[JSynon]

Hi everyone, :wave:

Could any of you please provide me with your interpretation of the following:
The Jerusalem Council and Decree in Acts 15.
Colossians 2:14.
Matthew 5:17-19.
The many verses in the epistles which seem to say that we are not under the law, but grace.

These seem to be the main arguing points of Christians against Torah observance, and I just want to see an MJ's perspective.

And finally, a question: Is the "law" spoken of by the authors of the epistles the entire Torah, God's law, or only the Levitical law? I have read this (http://www.christianforums.com/t1042390-the-law-was-never-abolished.html) entire thread and I am a bit lost as to which laws you believe we are to observe today.

Thanks! :)

[bluejeans]

Let God light the path to your feet and he will take you to the place you need
to be. I felt you needed to hear this message.
Shalom.

[Katydid]

Most people know that Acts 15:20 states that new believers should

abstain from things polluted by idols, fornication, things strangled, and blood.

The very next verse states:

For from the earliest times, Moshe(Moses) has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat(Sabbath).

So, where were these new believers going to fellowship? In the synagogues on Shabbat. There, they would hear the laws and make changes as appropriate. The letter sent was simply stating the least that they would need to change to fellowship with other believers.


Colossians 2:13 states that we were dead in our sins, verse 14 tells us that Yeshua has taken away the sin on us, but it in no way relieves us of our responsibility to try and stop sinning.


The Matthew verse basically states the opposite of what people are taught. The word "fulfill" does not mean "to bring an end to", but "to complete". He came to complete our understanding of the law. To teach us the proper way to follow it.

Hope this helps.

[Sephania]

Yes, that sticky wicked next verse that always seems to be invisible in the Christian world, but really how many Christians even obstain from blood? ;)

Jsonon let me ask you who are these people? and what does it mean?

Rev12:
12:17 And (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) the dragon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1404&version=kjv) was wroth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3710&version=kjv) with (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1909&version=kjv) the woman, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1135&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) went (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=565&version=kjv) to make (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4160&version=kjv) war (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4171&version=kjv) with (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3326&version=kjv) the remnant (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3062&version=kjv) of her (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) seed, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4690&version=kjv) which (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) keep (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5083&version=kjv) the commandments (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1785&version=kjv) of G-d, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) have (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2192&version=kjv) the testimony (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3141&version=kjv) of Jesus (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2424&version=kjv) Christ. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5547&version=kjv)

Who is the woman?
Who are considered the remnant of her seed?
What are the commandments of G-d?
Why is there a differentation of commandments of G-d and the testimony ( witness) of Jesus?

Here is the CJV version

17 The dragon was infuriated over the woman and went off to fight the rest of her children, those who obey God's commands and bear witness to Yeshua.

Here is the NLT version

17 Then the dragon became angry at the woman, and he declared war against the rest of her children – all who keep God's commandments and confess that they belong to Jesus.

[JSynon]

Thanks Katydid! :)

I never thought of Acts 15 in that way, thank you for your insight.

...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. - Colossians 2:14 What does it mean that He "wiped out" and "nailed to the cross" the handwriting of requirements? Also, is this "handwriting of requirements" the entire Torah or just the Levitical Law?

In Matthew 5:18, what do you take "till all is fulfilled" to mean? These verses really do seem to go against the Christian interpretation that Christ "fulfilled" the law, therefore making us not responsible to observe it. I think they take "till all is fulfilled" to mean "until I die and am resurrected."

[JSynon]

Who is the woman?That would be Israel, correct?

I think I understand your point.

[Sephania]

Not sure if you are asking Katy or in general but

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. - Colossians 2:14

Here is another translation see if it helps to clarify:

Where were we?
13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away.

So what did HaShem do about it?

Then God made you alive with Christ. He forgave all our sins.

How did he do it?
14 He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ's cross.

But Why?

15 In this way, God disarmed the evil rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross of Christ. NLT

The CJB version

13 You were dead because of your sins, that is, because of your "foreskin," your old nature. But God made you alive along with the Messiah by forgiving you all your sins. 14 He wiped away the bill of charges against us. Because of the regulations, it stood as a testimony against us; but he removed it by nailing it to the execution-stake. 15 Stripping the rulers and authorities of their power, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by means of the stake.

Help any?:)

[Sephania]

That would be Israel, correct?

I think I understand your point.
Yahoshua, Yes the woman is Israel, and the children that the dragon ( HaSatan ) hates are those that are of the true tree, the Torah, they are those who follow the Torah ( G-ds commandments) and are witnesses to Yeshua, that he is the promised Messiah and the Lamb of G-d.

If the commandments are nul and void then this makes no sense , especially in light that this is yet to come.

:)

[JSynon]

I am asking anybody willing to answer. :)

He canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ's cross.
That really does help. Thanks! :)

[JSynon]

If the commandments are nul and void then this makes no sense , especially in light that this is yet to come.
Seems that way.

[Katydid]

Thank you Zayit, my husband was on the computer for a while. So, thank you for answering.

For the other question

Matthew 5:18 in the CJV reads

5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. The New Living Translation

5:18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. KJV

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


OK so not all will be fulfilled until Heaven and earth pass away. I don't know about everyone else, but I think we still live on earth, don't we?:confused: LOL

[Sephania]

Yes, but I am held here against my will , but in HaShem's! :)

[JSynon]

Thanks for your response Katydid. :)

Now, we today do not have the responsibility of observing the Levitical Law, correct?

Also, what is your interpretation of Romans 14:14?

(Again, not just for Katydid, but anybody willing. :))

[Katydid]

Now, we today do not have the responsibility of observing the Levitical Law, correct?



OK well, I think we do. All the verses I posted state that the law is not abolished, but it doesn't lead to salvation. But, as a believer in Yeshua, as one who loves HaShem, we should WANT to correct our sins. How do we as believers know what sin is, by reading and learning the law. Noone can be perfect, that is why Yeshua became the perfect sacrifice, but we should all try to be better.



Also, what is your interpretation of Romans 14:14?


I am going to have to get back to you on this one. I haven't studied it yet. I will come back and see what others say, and I will definately study this one.

[Sephania]

Now, we today do not have the responsibility of observing the Levitical Law, correct?



Yehoshua would you please define your understanding of Levitical law? I cannot answer without knowing this, as some would consider everything but the 10 words the Levitical law and others would know the difference and understand maybe it as the ceremonial laws, ( regarding the Mishkan or Temple service). And then some may define it as those laws contained in Vayikra or 'Leviticus'.

So the answer would be different for each understanding.

:)

[Sephania]

Also, what is your interpretation of Romans 14:14?

14:14 I know (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1492&version=kjv), and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) am persuaded (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3982&version=kjv) by (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) the Lord (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2962&version=kjv) Jesus, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2424&version=kjv) that (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3754&version=kjv) there is nothing (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3762&version=kjv) unclean (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2839&version=kjv) of (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223&version=kjv) itself: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1438&version=kjv) but (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1508&version=kjv) to him that esteemeth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3049&version=kjv) any thing (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5100&version=kjv) to be (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1511&version=kjv) unclean, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2839&version=kjv) to him (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1565&version=kjv) it is unclean. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2839&version=kjv)

In this text the word 'unclean' comes from the Greek word "koinos" meaning common in all three usages; it's not the Greek word "akathartos" which is used elsewhere to mean ritually or ceremonially unclean. No surprise, since ritual cleanliness wasn't the issue in the passage, vegetarianism was.

Now click on word 'unclean' in the above passage to get the KJV strongs definition of unclean used here and you will see that the first definition says 'common' but the second in a 'defining of the definition' ( to make scripture match Christian teaching ) says:"by the Jews, unhallowed, profane, Levitically unclean" and itcan be plainly seen as doing this to support Christian interpretation by going to another controversial passage in Acts 10


10:14 But (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1161&version=kjv) Peter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4074&version=kjv) said (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2036&version=kjv), Not so, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3365&version=kjv) Lord; (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2962&version=kjv) for (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3754&version=kjv) I have (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5315&version=kjv) never (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3763&version=kjv) eaten (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5315&version=kjv) any thing (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956&version=kjv) that is common (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2839&version=kjv) or (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2228&version=kjv) unclean. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=169&version=kjv)
Now see here there is the use of both words in the Greek, "koinos" and "akathartos". If they both mean the same thing why does Kefa use both? It is because there is a differentation to this. The correct interpretation of this passage was referring to Gentiles which were considered common and unclean. If the word meant the same thing it would be like saying I am a female and a woman.

You have to put the passage in question ( Romans14:14) in its proper context and it was clearly speaking of vegetarianism.

Romans 14:1 Now as for a person whose trust is weak, welcome him - but not to get into arguments over opinions. 2 One person has the trust that will allow him to eat anything, while another whose trust is weak eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats anything must not look down on the one who abstains; and the abstainer must not pass judgment on the one who eats anything, because God has accepted him -

[JSynon]

Thanks for the posts. :)

My understanding of the Levitical Law is that it is the ceremonial laws, i.e. animal sacrifice.

[Katydid]

OHHHH, well then no, we don't need to follow the sacrifices. Sorry, I think of Levitical law as just, all the laws. Thank you for the clarification.

[visionary]

The CJB version

13 You were dead because of your sins, that is, because of your "foreskin," your old nature. But God made you alive along with the Messiah by forgiving you all your sins. 14 He wiped away the bill of charges against us. Because of the regulations, it stood as a testimony against us; but he removed it by nailing it to the execution-stake. 15 Stripping the rulers and authorities of their power, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by means of the stake.

regulations - like ...see "Lamb of God" whereever there is a sacrifice in OT???
regulations - like ...see "Mechesdek priest" whereever you see hgih priest in OT???
regulations - like ...see "temple in heaven" whereever you see temple in Jerusalem???

Are these the regulations he nailed to the cross???
or
Are the regulations more to do with the cursings of OT???

[Sephania]

Now, we today do not have the responsibility of observing the Levitical Law, correct?


My understanding of the Levitical Law is that it is the ceremonial laws, i.e. animal sacrifice.
There can be no responsibility or observation as there is no Temple in which to observe these things, but Yeshua is now our High Priest and we should treat him as such.

[JSynon]

Which laws do you believe we are to observe today?

[Katydid]

Any that apply. Basically, anything that applies to your gender, and does not include temple practices as there is no temple.

[JSynon]

And we should allow the Torah to be a guide to a righteous life for us, correct?

I don't see the problem that Christians have with this if you don't believe the Torah achieves us salvation.

A Baptist friend of mine mentioned today that most of the Torah was for the protection of the Jews that lived at that time and wouldn't apply today, i.e. don't eat pork because it can hurt you if undercooked. What do you think of this?

Also, I've heard that a woman must seperate from her tribe during her time of impurity. If this is true, do you observe this law?

What other main differences are there between Messianics and Christians besides following the Torah? And finally, what do you think of the Christian symbol, the cross?

[JSynon]

This is a bit off topic, but I plan on attending a Messianic Synagogue for the first time this Saturday. I recently found out about this Messianic Synagogue that is about 40 minutes from my home. This (http://www.shema.com/) is their website. I'm just wondering what I should be expecting. How different would you say it will be from a Christian, let's say Baptist, church?

[Katydid]

Yes, the Torah is the guide to living a righteous lifestyle.


don't eat pork because it can hurt you if undercooked. What do you think of this?


Someone in this forum has a link to a website that shows how pork is raised today.:sick: I think this may clear up the idea that it is clean. Basically, the way it is cooked has nothing to do with the health aspect. It is the toxins in the meat that cause the problem and cooking it doesn't get those toxins out. The same with shellfish, it has toxins in the meat and cooking it does not remove those. Besides that, HaShem KNOWS the best diet for our bodies. If you wanted to know the best way to fix a TV would you go to a general repairman, yes, he may have good information, but what if you personally KNEW the man who designed and built that TV, wouldn't it be better to go straight to the source. Scientists have information, and yes, it is good sometimes, but we PERSONALLY know the designer and creator. How much better to just go straight to Him.


Also, I've heard that a woman must seperate from her tribe during her time of impurity. If this is true, do you observe this law?


No. She doesn't have to leave the home. You aren't supposed to sleep with your husband. And of course you aren't supposed to tempt him. And yes, we follow this.


What other main differences are there between Messianics and Christians besides following the Torah?

The interpretation of the scriptures supporting the obedience to Torah. That is the big one.


And finally, what do you think of the Christian symbol, the cross?

Many people have differing feelings on this. Some Messianics wear a cross, but most I know, don't. My personal feelings are these,

1. The cross has been a symbol used to slaughter the Jewish people for centuries. It was originated as a symbol for the purpose of going into battle. I don't know the whole story, but I do know that before people started using a cross as the symbol of Christianity, believers used to use a fish.

2. I see too many people idolizing the item that killed Yeshua. I mean, I don't mean to infer that they actually worship the cross, but to me there is a very fine line and worry about people crossing it without realizing. Plus, Yeshua's life, what he taught, all of that can be forgotten if we turn our eyes constantly to the symbol of His death. His resurrection, his ascension, all forgotten when all we talk about and remember is his death.

3. My friend asked me this question, "If Yeshua were killed tommorrow, do you think we would all be wearing electric chairs around our neck?" I just thought this spoke tons and also way to cute to leave out.


Hope all of this helps.

[visionary]

I took a look at the website of the synagogue that you are considering going to.

Rich Nichol and Jamie Cowen, leaders in the UMJC, were recently asked by a reporter for the Jerusalem Post whether Jewish people who don't believe in Jesus were going to Hell. According to an article that appeared last summer in the Jerusalem Post, Rich responded: "Our primary identity is as Jews. We're not evangelists. He said that the UMJC... does not believe that Jews who have not accepted Jesus are doomed to hell."

Here's how I would have answered it: B'va-dai! Of course! And, here's why:

This quote was taken directly out of the website material... in it, you find the controversy that may consume the leader of this congregation. When controversy such as this take over and cause an imbalance in thier personal faith, it will also affect the congregation.

On this controversial issue, I would say that it is not for us to state who goes where (heaven or hell), because the Lord has given us the assignment to witness around the world before He returns and not judge.

[JSynon]

That most definitely does help Katydid, thank you very much. :)

On this controversial issue, I would say that it is not for us to state who goes where (heaven or hell), because the Lord has given us the assignment to witness around the world before He returns and not judge. I totally agree. However, this is the only Messianic Synagogue that I can find near me, so I think I will still attend at least once to experience it.

Also, I was just wondering, is there a diverse view of eschatology / end times theology within Messianic Judaism?

[Sephania]

This is a bit off topic, but I plan on attending a Messianic Synagogue for the first time this Saturday. I recently found out about this Messianic Synagogue that is about 40 minutes from my home. This (http://www.shema.com/) is their website. I'm just wondering what I should be expecting. How different would you say it will be from a Christian, let's say Baptist, church?
From a quick look at their website I would say you would feel right at home, they seem to be evangelical/Christian more so than Orthodox MJ. I also saw this:



Musical artist Jonathan Settel will join us for a mini-concert on Saturday, October 30th at our 10:30 AM service. Jonathan is fantastic, so invite some friends and join us for a special time of Messianic joy!

And I would encourage you to attend on this day also. Jonathan has a wonderful DVD out called Amen, and a video that shows Yeshua growing up in his "Jewish context", I've seen it and it's wonderful.

[Sephania]

And we should allow the Torah to be a guide to a righteous life for us, correct? If it was good enough for over 3,000 years for instruction? ;) It is an instruction book for those who believe in the creator of the universe, the one true G-d. If he has choosen you, not you choose him ( many Christians think they choose and these are the ones who you fnd are finding every excuse to not follow his laws, or they suddenly realize that they don't believe any longer.) then this is how you witness to the world that you belong to him.


I don't see the problem that Christians have with this if you don't believe the Torah achieves us salvation.
This is the biggest differentation between True Messianics and Christians, they misinterpret the law as being under it, instead of walking rightfully in it. Two different things so they live by their interpretations, not Yeshua's.

I'll share with you something HaShem showed me awhile ago, the difference in these two, Christianity and Messianic Judaism, or even Biblical Judaism ( as differnt from Rabbinic Judaism) is that:
Christianity is a religion about justification
True Messianic Judaism is a faith about sanctification
It's as simple as that, now in MJ you have those who participate in the Biblical holidays and Sabbath but still live under the umbrella of justification ( ie "grace").

A Baptist friend of mine mentioned today that most of the Torah was for the protection of the Jews that lived at that time and wouldn't apply today, i.e. don't eat pork because it can hurt you if undercooked. What do you think of this? These were things given to the people to set them apart from the nations, to sancitify them to HaShem. Yes,it was for their own good but that was a gift, it was all about the service of G-d. A witness of him on earth through his people. If you consider yourself one of his people why wouldn't you want to do the things that honor him?

About the pork, you might want to read through this thread. http://www.christianforums.com/t739605-what-do-you-do.html

Also, I've heard that a woman must seperate from her tribe during her time of impurity. If this is true, do you observe this law?
NO, a woman was to separate from her husband. Observant MJ' woman do this today, either in a separate room or if not available, the man sleeps on the floor. There are many reasons, but one of the benifits of this is that when it is over the two come together like a honeymoon and it keeps the relationship fresh and holy.
What other main differences are there between Messianics and Christians besides following the Torah? And finally, what do you think of the Christian symbol, the cross? I think that the two main things are that we sanctify the L-rd by keeping his Sabbath. Some keep it better than others mind you, and the Holy days. Christianity has adopted their holy days from the pagan religions, ours come straight from the mouth of G-d and they are His feasts and they tell a story in whole and in part.

I agree with Katy on the cross issue. Even if you don't have a crusifix ( a cross with a man on it) it still is a symbol, and that symbol is of death. Yeshua defeated death, we celebrate his life! I don't need a symbol to remind me of what he did for me, that is what called me to him and I will never forget that.:clap:

[Sephania]

How many believe that Torah observance is equal to Observing the words of Yeshua?


Torah is a tree of life to all who take hold of it, Yeshua's words are words of life, if we obey them we have life everlasting.

[JSynon]

OK, that's enoughWho is that directed to Zayit?

[Sephania]

Nope, that's not enough talk about observing Torah, carry on!

;)

[JSynon]

How many believe that Torah observance is equal to Observing the words of Yeshua?
I am coming to believe this... along with the words of the apostles.

[ShirChadash]

How many believe that Torah observance is equal to Observing the words of Yeshua?

:wave:

~~ raises hand ~~ I do!


Torah is a tree of life to all who take hold of it, Yeshua's words are words of life, if we obey them we have life everlasting.
:wave:

~~ raises, uhm, other hand ~~ I agree!

Yeshua is Torah is Yeshua is Torah is Yeshua is Torah (am I repetitive enough? :sorry: ) And since Torah IS the very Words of Yeshua, as well as those He spoke while teaching on earth... I say: no Torah, no Yeshua; and, know Torah, know Yeshua. Gotta have both the written and the Living Word :)

[JSynon]

I say: no Torah, no Yeshua; and, know Torah, know Yeshua. Ha, clever, I like that. ;)

I have a question for anybody: What is your interpretation of Hebrews 7:11-19, especially verses 12, "of necessity there is also a change of the law", and 18, "there is an annulling of the former commandment?"

Also, 1 Timothy 4:4, "For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving", and Hebrews 8:13, "In that He says, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away?"

[ShirChadash]

1 Timothy 4:4, "For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving"

:wave: From Sterns' Jewish NT Commentary on 1 Tim 4:4... "Everything created by G-d is good -- but not everything created by G-d is food. Therefore, this verse does not abolish the dietary laws...." (bold, mine)

;)

[visionary]

I have a question for anybody: What is your interpretation of Hebrews 7:11-19, especially verses 12, "of necessity there is also a change of the law", and 111 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 8, "there is an annulling of the former commandment?"It helps when you quote the whole verse...11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

In fact that entire chapter explains the change....14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) 22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

[Shimshon]

o.k. the point that it has past is an obvious one. We have no temple...no land....and even the jews in the land are not following Torah in that they reject Yeshua. The whole system is indeed defunked, disassembled, deconstructed, disolved.

BUT, seeing as it is impossible to have something form out of nothing and vice versa nothingness form from something. (albeit G-d can do anything) I submit that when the Torah is refered to as "past away" or "changed" or even "completed", that it had to go somewhere (past away), or reconstructed into something else (changed), or as we come to understand it as having been made whole by adding (changed) that which it needed to become "complete".

Now, if it has passed away, where did it go? And if it has changed, what did it change into? And if it has been completed, in what way has it been?

It has passed away from the outward physical observance, to an inward heart felt one. It has changed from a mediated relationship with G-d to a personal relationship. It has been completed by making it possible for every single individual to be Kadosh and part of the Mishpocha of G-d.

b'shalom
Shimshon

[JSynon]

Thanks for your explanations everybody. :)

Everything created by G-d is good -- but not everything created by G-d is foodBut wouldn't "everything" include food, as "nothing" is to be refused?

Actually, all of those verses make sense to me if the "law" it is speaking of is the ceremonial laws, i.e. animal sacrifice. Is this the case?

None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. - Hebrews 8:11
It seems like this has not come to pass yet. :scratch:

[Shimshon]

Thanks for your explanations everybody. :)

But wouldn't "everything" include food, as "nothing" is to be refused?
I do beleive it was Shaul you are quoting. And I do beleive his response to the notion that since we are completely free we can sin (transgress Torah) all the more and be found all the more righteous was ...Heaven Forbid!!! No!!!

So to say that we are free to ....eat pork...not wear tzitziyot...not be circumsised....not offer sacrifices....not be Torah observant at all and still be saved is a misunderstanding of the text. We are free NOT to do these things ONLY when we internalize the mitzvah taking it to heart, not merely saying they are abolished and dead no longer to even be thought of.....G-d forbid! To make another quote from this writter; "we are free from the power of sin" "sin is transgression of Torah (the law)" We are free from transgressing the Torah. Not free TO transgress it. We are sanctificed by Yeshua...not just justified. He does not 'justify' us when we sin (transgressing of Torah)...He sanctifies us so we are Kadosh. NEVER transgressing Torah (by the power of the Ruach in us).

Actually, all of those verses make sense to me if the "law" it is speaking of is the ceremonial laws, i.e. animal sacrifice. Is this the case?

None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. - Hebrews 8:11
It seems like this has not come to pass yet. :scratch:
You mean the Ruach is not given to all who receive it and it is not revealing to us all the ways of G-d and leading us in them? You mean we do not now have a personal relationship with Yeshua? We are only slaves and babes under a custodian not very children in a most intimate relationship with the living L-rd of the universe? You mean to tell me that all though we have all this as our relationship with Abba we still dont' know him and need to be taught by and through men still?.....Are you sure you think this is the way he said it would be for us who have his Ruach?

[JSynon]

You mean the Ruach is not given to all who receive it and it is not revealing to us all the ways of G-d and leading us in them? You mean we do not now have a personal relationship with Yeshua? We are only slaves and babes under a custodian not very children in a most intimate relationship with the living L-rd of the universe? You mean to tell me that all though we have all this as our relationship with Abba we still dont' know him and need to be taught by and through men still?.....Are you sure you think this is the way he said it would be for us who have his Ruach? Of course not, I just took the verse to mean that witnessing would not take place, that's all.

[ShirChadash]

Thanks for your explanations everybody. :)

But wouldn't "everything" include food, as "nothing" is to be refused?


Certainly, food is included in what is good :) But G-d does not call all things food, and neither do we humans. Those who eat kosher go by G-d's definition of "what is food" for man, and not merely our own reckoning. Remember who the "audience" was, when reading Scripture -- the "New Testament" verses were spoken and written primarily by Jews, to primarily Jews, and they all understood "food" to be only the things G-d told us are acceptable as foods for man.

[Shimshon]

Of course not, I just took the verse to mean that witnessing would not take place, that's all.
Oh I see. Well in that I would agree. The witnessing done today is superfluous. The true witness is a life kadosh l'adonai. When one lets the Ruach live and breath through themselves they become living letters, living sacrifices, Torat Chayim "living Torah". And that is the witness we must be. Testifying ONLY to the word witnessed by Yeshua...the word spoken by G-d. This is the logical "temple worship" for us. WE are the witness, our lives. Not just mere words...."YOU NEED JESUS!!!)....SHOW them how much they need Yeshua by letting Yeshua live in you.

We all don't need to be merely told about the testimony. We need someone to witness it to us.

However, we all need to uplift and uphold eachother in Mashiach. In love we help and teach our mishpocha (family) Not telling them "Know Adonai!!!" for each one does. But helping them along the way with kind instruction and loving exhortations. Treating others as we would want others to treat us.

[JSynon]

I went to Congregation Shema Yisrael's Shabbat service today and I really liked it. It was a small group, maybe 40-50 people total, and everybody was very welcoming and nice. First Rabbi had us say some prayers, some in hebrew with the english after. Then we sang some songs, he preached, and we ended with prayer. What surprised me was that no offering basket was passed around like in every Christian church I have been to. They have been meeting for 14 years and still do not have their own building, but they didn't beg for money. Well I figured I would just tell you all how it went. Take care. :)

[visionary]

Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.I see this verse having a future fulillment when teaching every man his neighbour is not necessary because we all know the Lord.

I think it will go with the time when before we ask, we are given answer too.

Isaiah 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

[Katydid]

What surprised me was that no offering basket was passed around like in every Christian church I have been to. They have been meeting for 14 years and still do not have their own building, but they didn't beg for money. Well I figured I would just tell you all how it went. Take care. :)

In synagogues and in every Messianic service I have ever been to or heard about, they don't use an offering plate. Though most have a (OK let's see if I get this one right) tzedekah box. Which is a box near the entrance. Noone mentions it or speaks of it because giving is supposed to be from your heart without expectation of anything in return. So, to give, you just put some money into the box. Noone sees you do it, and you don't see what others give. It is all what you feel you should give. Basically, you don't have to see how so-and-so put in a $20 while you could only put in $2. And, so-and-so can't judge you for putting in less because they didn't see what you put in. And, the reciever has no obligation to thank anyone because they have no idea who gave them the money. OK did that make any sense. I know someone can explain it better.

[Sephania]

I went to Congregation Shema Yisrael's Shabbat service today and I really liked it. It was a small group, maybe 40-50 people total, and everybody was very welcoming and nice. First Rabbi had us say some prayers, some in hebrew with the english after. Then we sang some songs, he preached, and we ended with prayer. What surprised me was that no offering basket was passed around like in every Christian church I have been to. They have been meeting for 14 years and still do not have their own building, but they didn't beg for money. Well I figured I would just tell you all how it went. Take care. :)Wonderful!!!!!:clap: I thought you would enjoy it, are you going back next week? Johathan Settel is going to be there from what I read at the site and you don't want to miss him. See if you can't get some others to go with you, it will be wonderful learning experience, especially if he shows his new DVD.

Check it out for yourself here


Main site for Johnathan (https://wx10.registeredsite.com/user890284/indexsecure.asp)

From the site:

The time to live the unity of the Scriptures has arrived. Through the music of Settel International Ministries, both Gentiles and Jews can touch the Heart of God and feel the arms of Messiah Yeshua surround them. This act alone brings us together and the special love of Messiah is the glue that will hold us together.
Get a video/audio clip of 'AMEN" (https://wx10.registeredsite.com/user890284/indexsecure.asp)Check out all the clips there |Amen, MEssiah, And Behind the scenes.

:)

[JSynon]

In synagogues and in every Messianic service I have ever been to or heard about, they don't use an offering plate. Though most have a (OK let's see if I get this one right) tzedekah box. Which is a box near the entrance. Noone mentions it or speaks of it because giving is supposed to be from your heart without expectation of anything in return. So, to give, you just put some money into the box. Noone sees you do it, and you don't see what others give. It is all what you feel you should give. Basically, you don't have to see how so-and-so put in a $20 while you could only put in $2. And, so-and-so can't judge you for putting in less because they didn't see what you put in. And, the reciever has no obligation to thank anyone because they have no idea who gave them the money. OK did that make any sense. I know someone can explain it better. Makes perfect sense, and I feel that this is the right way to collect any offering.

WonderfuI !!!!!:clap: I thought you would enjoy it, are you going back next week? I will definitely try and get a ride. On the way back from Shabbat service yesterday I got in a little offroad car accident and my car is messed up pretty bad. :(
Thanks for the links! :wave:

[Sephania]

I am so sorry to hear that, I will pray that your repairs will be easy and quick and the bill low and affordable. :pray:

[Talmidah]

In synagogues and in every Messianic service I have ever been to or heard about, they don't use an offering plate.
At the messianic congregation I used to be involved with, they did pass collect offering every Shabbat right after the Torah portion of the service and right before the "rabbi's" sermon.

[JSynon]

Thank you for your prayers Zayit. :hug:

[debi b]

Wonderful!!!!!:clap: I thought you would enjoy it, are you going back next week? Johathan Settel is going to be there from what I read at the site and you don't want to miss him. See if you can't get some others to go with you, it will be wonderful learning experience, especially if he shows his new DVD.



Is it finished? Jonathan was in Kalispell, Montana this past summer and he was talking about it.

[visionary]

At the messianic congregation I used to be involved with, they did pass collect offering every Shabbat right after the Torah portion of the service and right before the "rabbi's" sermon.
Everyone is learning, and it could be that this congregation has not received light on this matter.

[JSynon]

"The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

Yesterday in the mail we got a tax return check for $4,305. For the past few years they have taken our tax return from us, but this year we got it. Thank you for your prayers. :)

[Sephania]

Baruch HaSHEM!!!!!!!!! :clap:

:hug: JS

[By Grace]

I'll share with you something HaShem showed me awhile ago, the difference in these two, Christianity and Messianic Judaism, or even Biblical Judaism ( as differnt from Rabbinic Judaism) is that:
Christianity is a religion about justification
True Messianic Judaism is a faith about sanctification
It's as simple as that, now in MJ you have those who participate in the Biblical holidays and Sabbath but still live under the umbrella of justification ( ie "grace").

Zayit, can you expand on this a little, please?

TIA,

[JSynon]

In Matthew 19:16-22 Yeshua seems to be teaching salvation by Torah. What is your interpretation of this?

I should probably pick up Stern's NT commentary because that would probably answer a lot of my questions on Messianic interpretation. ;)

[Sephania]

Zayit, can you expand on this a little, please?

TIA,
My understanding of what He was saying is that Christianity basically has shruged off "Anything Jewish" that is well documented in the writings of the Church fathers, laws were made against it, unlawful for instance to even rest on Shabbat and many others. Basically they were making their own religion taking from their past and putting off the past of the Judaism taught to Moshe on the mountain and delivered to the children and to which Yeshua was born into and walked perfect in.

They see that the law is done away with because that is what they want to see. If Judaism does it, it's not for them. They justify what they do by finding scripture and twisting the meaning to suit their needs or wants, not G-ds need from us or wants ( commands).

Justification

When you look this up in the dictionary it says:

"The act of justifying or the state of being justified; a showing or proving to be just or conformable to law, justice, right, or duty; defense; vindication; support"


Now Messianic Judaism I believe is to be about Sanctification, that is we haven't thrown anything away because all that comes from G-ds Torah is good, except where Yeshua gives a better understanding of the commandments we are to follow them. Why? To justify ourselves before G-d? No, Yeshua did that already and we are only to believe that and we are, but we do it to Sanctify the L-rd.

Shabbat is about sanctification of the creator G-d who made the universe and all that is in it iin 6 days time. We are to remember and observe and uphold that and thus we are witness to his holiness by doing so.
He gave us 7 feasts to show his plan of salvation, it's not over, there are still many that need to learn this and so we practice this every year, in its proper cycle that HAshem set and we are reminded of what he has done for us and what he will still do. This also sanctifies him in us in these Holy convocations.
We eat Kosher , because the L-Rd wanted his people who were doing these other things to point to him to stand out and therefore set them apart how they are to eat, different from the heathens, those who haven't respect for the lives he created.

All these things we do witness to who he is and what he has done and will do and that we are separate to him and not doing like the world . It is about His holiness and following what he said and not changing it to our desires and conformaty shows him to be the Almighty, everlasting creator King of the Universe.

I am tired, so I hope that made sense, but that is what I took from it.

shalom:)

Have you seen my new title? It means that the Torah and its commandments aren't a menu from Burger King, whose slogan is "Have it your way". That is basically what I see that Christianity is, and that I believe is why there are so many hundreds of denominations, because you can't take Judaism out of a Jewish book and fully understand it and follow it as you should. :)

[davidoffinland]

From Finland.

I read something interesting about Torah observation and I believe it should be significant for the walk.

Torah observation cannot overshadow the work of Messiah on the cross. In other words, if a person who is interested and is practicing Torah and the mitzvahs...he cannot be justified because he is not excercising firstly his faith/trust in Messiah. If he truly believes firstly in the work of the Messiah, then he can practice Torah to deepen his walk.

I thought this was quite interesting.

Shalom, David.

[visionary]

"The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

Yesterday in the mail we got a tax return check for $4,305. For the past few years they have taken our tax return from us, but this year we got it. Thank you for your prayers. :)
May the Lord continue to bless you and keep you in the paths of righteousness.

[JSynon]

...addition to my last question...
In Matthew 19:16-22 Yeshua seems to be teaching salvation by Torah. What is your interpretation of this?I am also having trouble explaining Galatians 3:19-25 to a Christian friend. Any comments?

Also, (I apologize for all the questions) what is your interpretation of Romans 6:14-15. What exactly does Paul mean when he says, "you are not under law?"

[Shimshon]

...addition to my last question...
I am also having trouble explaining Galatians 3:19-25 to a Christian friend. Any comments?

Also, (I apologize for all the questions) what is your interpretation of Romans 6:14-15. What exactly does Paul mean when he says, "you are not under law?"Sin = transgression of the law

Shaul said, "we are free from sin" "Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life."

The term "under the law" means held under it's power. The law lead to death. it's whole purpose was to show us our sin and the need for Yeshua. We are no longer "under" the law, held accountable for all the sin we comit "under" it. The law is not over us as it was before Yeshua wrote it on our hearts, it is "IN" us. Torah was once seperate from man....G-d was seperated from his creation. But now Torah is "inside" man. G-d is now one with his creation.

What once held us to death. Now by the power of the Spirit frees us to eternal life.

Sin is transgression of Torah. Like doing all the works therein but not from the heart. With no love......useless vainity. But now we by the power of the Ruach in us are free from sinning..from transgressing Torah. We are no longer under the law....but it is "IN" us.

Matthew 5

17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete

Matthew 18
3Then he said, "I assure you, unless you turn from your sins and become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

1 John 2
1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin
. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the world.
6Those who say they live in G-d should live their lives as Ha Moshiach did.

1 John 3:9Those who have been born into G-d’s family do not sin, because G-d'd life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they have been born of G-d.


Yeshua said, "Turn from your sins to G-d". Stop transgressing Torah.


Shaul said, "I have had one message for Jews and Gentiles alike--the necessity of "turning from sin and turning to G-d", and of faith in Adonenu Yeshua."

Yochanan said, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS."

Sin is Transgression of Torah(law) Each one of you must turn from your sin to G-d...............

[JSynon]

Thank you shimshon. :)

[JSynon]

I am wondering... which holidays do Messianics celebrate and why? And when are the dates of the holidays?

[JSynon]

I've been reading Numbers and I just came across the penalty for violating the Shabbat in Numbers 15:32-36. The man was stoned for, I suppose deliberately, violating the Shabbat. Is this a law that Messianics follow today?

[ShirChadash]

I am wondering... which holidays do Messianics celebrate and why? And when are the dates of the holidays?

http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/calendar/5765.html?print=1

Many Messianics celebrate the Biblical feasts in the light (and with the understanding and fullness) of Yeshua HaMoshiach. The Biblical feasts are all feasts Yeshua Himself celebrated, as a Jew, (with perhaps the exception of Purim, I suppose... I am not sure there was much feasting done in remembrance of Esther's faithfulness, in Yeshua's day... I'm sure someone else would be able to tell you about that).

Others of the above feasts are not Biblical in origin but are Israeli/Jewish feastivals that are historically important to the nation and people of Israel for differing reasons... some Messianics celebrate them in addition to the Biblical feasts as a part of identifying with the Jewish people and with Israel as a nation.

[ShirChadash]

I've been reading Numbers and I just came across the penalty for violating the Shabbat in Numbers 15:32-36. The man was stoned for, I suppose deliberately, violating the Shabbat. Is this a law that Messianics follow today?

:sorry: I would say... no. :)

[visionary]

No, the Lord beats you over the head with guilt now.

[ShirChadash]

No, the Lord beats you over the head with guilt now.

lol

:angel:

[JSynon]

Thanks for the holiday info Zemirah. :wave:

How come that Shabbat law is no longer enforced?

[ShirChadash]

Thanks for the holiday info Zemirah. :wave:

How come that Shabbat law is no longer enforced?

:) You're welcome.

Honestly, a number of the Laws are specifically for the operation of the Theocracy of Israel (which, it isn't, these days) and on top of that, the world community has enough hatred for Israel and I can't imagine the uproar it would cause if she dared follow G-d's Laws on such things... but as I said, Israel is not a Theocracy these days, anyway, so this simply isn't one of the Laws that can be followed at this time.

Someone else may have a much better or more complete answer for you...

[Star4Yah]

Shalom,

I believe the time is coming when 'christians' will turn to the Father, HaShem, and they will be guided by HIS Spirit to understand the Love HE has for us...thru the Living Torah!

To understand what Torah is I had to first understand it did not mean LAW. It literally, meant Teaching!

And when I searched for the meaning of 'fulfill', I learned the Messiah, truely did just that when it comes to the Torah.

"Dont think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete." Matthew 5:17

Fulfill: 'To carry out something promised, desired, expected, predicted, etc. Cause to be or happen; to do something required; obey. To fill the requirements of; satisfy a condition or answer a purpose; to bring to an end; complete.'

Does not this word bring to mind the Messiah?

And after 20 years as a christian I was lead to understand that the Spirit of the Torah is the Living Word. If fellow christians could understand that seeing the Torah by itself with out the Messiah (as many do) is the stumbling block and for many Jewish believers it is their veil.

"For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, G-d did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one (but without sin). G-d did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants." Romans 8:3-4

And thus, there in lies the struggle I think, because one who does not see the Torah as the Living Word of HaShem, struggles with the old nature.

"For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to G-d, because it does not submit itself to G-d's Torah--indeed it cannot." Romans 8:7

I once too confused the death of sin with the death of the Torah. But, it is the death of sin ....our "freedom from sins committed under the first covenant" ...that should give me peace to obey the Torah.

The peace of the Living Word that is written on my heart.

"For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit.." Romans 7:14

And am I not to worship in the Spirit? Oh, that HIS Rauch would lead me so.

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in truth." John 4:34

"But, when he, the Spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all truth." John 16:13

*star

[JSynon]

Thanks for the post Star4Yah.

Also, thank you to whoever anonymously gave me a Kippah and Kosher Pizza! :hug:

[JSynon]

What exactly does "things strangled" refer to in Acts 15?

[ShirChadash]

JS, the "things strangled" issue refers to pagan practices... commonly pagans would, in their religious rituals, strangle an animal to kill it but not lose any of its blood -- specifically so they could collect the blood. This is an inhumane way to kill animals and G-d laid out that animals were to be killed mercifully and quickly -- a lot of proscription in the way they are to be killed -- and also, remember the life of the animal is in the blood and blood is never to be mishandled. The people of G-d were not to eat blood, nor drink blood, never to be partakers of blood in any way. The 4 Acts (chapter 15 is it? I keep thinking so... I hope it is :D ) commands all have to do with common-to-that-day practices that were directly involved in pagan rituals. I have also read that these were four things a Jew would sooner die than do themselves or have any part in... so what the Apostles were saying here is 1) these four things you must absolutely not do so that you can be in close-fellowship (learning with Jews, attending and intermingling in Synagogue, eating with Jews) 2) they are the minimum requirements/standards of practice for gentiles coming to faith in HaShem 3) and they expected the gentiles to be learning each week in Synagogue, embracing more and more of Torah and following it as they learned it (we can see this clearly, because it says, "for is not Moshe taught in the synagogues each week...?", Moshe meaning Torah given to and taught by Moshe to the Israelites.)

HTH :)

[JSynon]

Thanks again Zemirah. :hug:

[ShirChadash]

You be welcome :)

[Shimshon]

Fulfill: 'To carry out something promised, desired, expected, predicted, etc. Cause to be or happen; to do something required; obey. To fill the requirements of; satisfy a condition or answer a purpose; to bring to an end; complete.'

Does not this word bring to mind the Messiah?

And when you compare this definition with the definition of G-d's name below you see a striking similarity as well.

(Strong's Hebrew-Greek Dictionary)


1961 [was] hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare 1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): -- beacon, X altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, X use. Compare 3050 (above), 3069. Note: Exodus 3:14:
I AM THAT I AM = ehyeh 'asher 'ehyeh. ;
I AM = 'ehyeh. [I will be].


And after 20 years as a christian I was lead to understand that the Spirit of the Torah is the Living Word. If fellow christians could understand that seeing the Torah by itself with out the Messiah (as many do) is the stumbling block and for many Jewish believers it is their veil.

:amen:

[i]"For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, G-d did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one (but without sin). G-d did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants." Romans 8:3-4

And thus, there in lies the struggle I think, because one who does not see the Torah as the Living Word of HaShem, struggles with the old nature.

And :amen:

[JSynon]

Honestly, a number of the Laws are specifically for the operation of the Theocracy of Israel Since we are no longer under a Theocracy, this makes God's commandment void?

[JSynon]

Bump.

[visionary]

Since we are no longer under a Theocracy, this makes God's commandment void?Romans 3:31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

[naz_spooky]

acts 15 sets out the extremeties for the nations turning to torah.
lev 17 or so deals with not eating blood and turning from food slaughtered to idols - non kosher meat. end chp's deut, psalm 24, 1 cor 10. it also goes well with acts 10, where peter is shown the elohim fearers (a term that is used for non-jews that keep torah) are no longer to be called unclean. peter recounts this to the people and explains about the spirit being poured out. why does he do that? well the spirit of Yahweh will cause people to keep torah Ezekiel 11, 36 and this is how the nations would become a part of torah-keeping Israel. The believers knew about the (re)newed covenant and that both these chapters in Ezekiel were for the new covenant. this passage also fits in with the book of galatians were we had Jewish brethren teaching the a warped way of making proselytes to Judaism - by the circumcision. There was another way - immersion, learn torah, and then eventually become circumcised as the seal of the righteousness of faith. Romans 4. Gen 15-20. Yahweh was showing which way lined up with scripture. By saying you become saved by being circumcised the people were actually teaching that through your own blood (of circumcision) you enter into covenant with YHWH. This is contrary to torah. Abraham was righteous through faith Gen 15 (were it was NOT through his own blood that he entered covenant) then kept torah Gen 26:5 and 24 years after he was declared righteous did he become circumcised.

Interestingly in the NT where the words "circumcision" and "uncircumcision" appear, they are different greek word. circumcision = peritome, uncircumcision = akrobustia (the greek for uncircumcised should be aperitome). this word akrobustia is a translation of the hebrew arlah for foreskin. check out the hebrew in Joshua chap 5 and compare with the greek septuagint. my Gesinius Hebrew-Chaldee lexicon points out that arlah (foreskin) was a term that was used for the gentiles. it appears a number of times in the prophets.

so essentially in acts 15 and many other passages, it is not whether you are from the "circumcision" group or the "foreskin" group, what matters is fearing elohim, having faith in YHWH, and keeping his commandment by having the spirit inside of you to help you keep them - this is the basis of the (re)new(ed) covenant.

fulfill and abolish in matt 5 are rabbinic terms for teaching correctly and doing (fulfilling) vs. teaching incorrectily and not doing (abolishing).

col 2 links to many places. see deut 30 for what it means to have a circumcised heart = keep torah. the book of proverbs likens walking away from torah as adultery. Numbers 5 says that an adulterous women must be given a book full of curses. if she is innocent then the priest "blots out" what is written. in colossian 2, yeshua the priest "blots out" the curses written in the torah for people not obeying the torah, ie: he no longer holds them as an adulterous and expects them now to keep his torah. the greek word for "blot out" in col 2 is the very same greek word from the Septuagint (greek translation of the OT) of Numbers 5. the handwriting of ordinances is "cheiragraphon dogma", cheir = hand, graphon = write, dogma = ordinance. the word dogme was never used for the torah in the whole of the Septuagint or the Greek NT. it is used in connection with decrees given by rulers. the word cheiragraphon is never used in the bible, the only place it occurs is in the Appocryphal book of Tobit, where a certificate of a money amount to be paid is being talked about. I think one of the Gospels ch 15, talks of being thrown into prison if you can't pay your debt and you would remain there until you could pay off your debt. Our certificate of debt, is our transgression / sin against ALL of torah 1 John 3:4, there is no way we can pay that. Yeshua came and paid that price for us, and now we don't have to be imprisoned because of not keeping torah, we are now free again to obey it.

Shalom
Peter

[naz_spooky]

none of the law will pass - including the levitical law. in the shem tov hebrew matthew it reads that yeshua came to bring ha-shalom, the shalom peace to the torah. so he brought the shalom of the torah to mankind

[JSynon]

Thank you Peter. That makes sense. :wave: