Which religion do you think is the "right" religion

[Christian1004]

They're so many different religions to choose from out there... alot of people have a hard time deciding which one is which... i personally use to be baptist, about a year and a half ago i started goin to a church of christ with my girlfriend... after about 5 or so months of going and studying i found that i truley believe that i found the right church now... but of course thats what everyone says... i want to go to heaven when i die but i really wanna know, which church is the "true" church?

[Lynn73]

If you want to go to heaven when you die, do what the Bible says to do which is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Repent. Trust His death on the cross for you and His resurrection. Confess Him before men. It's about a relationship, not religion.

[JVD]

They're so many different religions to choose from out there... alot of people have a hard time deciding which one is which... i personally use to be baptist, about a year and a half ago i started goin to a church of christ with my girlfriend... after about 5 or so months of going and studying i found that i truley believe that i found the right church now

Be careful if you are hoping to find the one true church. There is no such thing, and with that attitude you could end up in a cult. There are cults that teach that they are the only true church and all other denominations/sects/churches are false.

Just make sure your faith is in the one true God and that is Jesus Christ. Go to a christian church to worship and grow with other christians, but do not search for a "right church", that is looking for a religion, not a relationship with God.

[Entertaining_Angels]

They're so many different religions to choose from out there... alot of people have a hard time deciding which one is which... i personally use to be baptist, about a year and a half ago i started goin to a church of christ with my girlfriend... after about 5 or so months of going and studying i found that i truley believe that i found the right church now... but of course thats what everyone says... i want to go to heaven when i die but i really wanna know, which church is the "true" church?

Read your Bible and be careful when looking for the one 'true' church. I was raised with beliefs that we did not have a religion just a relationship with God. Now that I've broken free of those teachings I realize it was more 'religion' then I got in some denominational teachings. They pulled specific verses out of the Bible and made everything seem logical. However, once I studied the New Testament and, more specifically, ALL of what Jesus taught, I realized how harmful those teachings were.

I've been 'recovering' from these teachings for a while now but Jesus has been with me every step of the way. I just now caution believers to use caution and compare everything in a church to the Word of God...not just portions of the Bible but all of it.

[okiemommy26]

The one true religion is Christiany

[StevenL]

The right religion = Helping widows and orphans in their troubles and remaining unspotted from the world. James 1:27

That's all folks. :)

[Wisdom's Child]

The one true religion is Christiany
May I ask which Christianity is the True One?

[twistedsketch]

May I ask which Christianity is the True One?

Christianity that obeys and teaches the entire Bible and adds nothing else. If it marginalizes Scripture, watch out. If they add their own teachings or books, such as the Book of Mormon or other teaching that is not Biblical, watch out.

[Col]

If you want to go to heaven when you die, do what the Bible says to do which is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Repent. Trust His death on the cross for you and His resurrection. Confess Him before men. It's about a relationship, not religion.
What Lynn73 said :amen:

[Lynn73]

Be careful if you are hoping to find the one true church. There is no such thing, and with that attitude you could end up in a cult. There are cults that teach that they are the only true church and all other denominations/sects/churches are false.

Just make sure your faith is in the one true God and that is Jesus Christ. Go to a christian church to worship and grow with other christians, but do not search for a "right church", that is looking for a religion, not a relationship with God.
Remember how Mormonism started out? Joseph Smith went out and prayed and wanted to know out of all the earth's religion's which one was the right one. An demon appeared to him as an angel of light and told him none of them, and the cult of Mormonism was born.

I hesitate, however, to say that there is no such thing as the one true church. But to me the one true church is every born again believer in Jesus Christ no matter where they are on the earth and no matter what church they attend. This is the true church: people who have believed on Christ, not an organization or a building but a living organism. The true church of Christ, in my opinion, isn't a visible, physical organization.

[Triangulation]

I would say the right religion is the one Jesus taught. Personaly I have issues when it comes to all the different Denominations out there. I even have a problem with politics in non denominational churches. Of course I enjoy attending church on sundays and learning about the word so I have been in the same boat before but I'm used to it now.

I grew up in an Evangelical Free Church and I don't have a problem with their veiws at all as well as most denominations. I have even attended the chruch of christ and found the only turn off were those that claimed if you go to this church then you have salvation. I personaly have been attending a presbyterian church recently but I have attended baptist and southern baptist and faith luthern and several others. I look at it as strokes for folks sort of thing.

The only time I require myself to leave a church is if they have a philosophical view that interfers with my walk in Christ or my ministry.

:preach: Added update. I wanted to include that anyone who says you must attend my church for salvation needs to read the book of Galation's written by the apostle Paul. The book is all about barriers placed up in the church by mankind. Now I'm sure the people that will be offered this book that believe a person must attend their church for salvation may have an opinion that is inconsistent with orthodox theology. But ask yourself do they practice orthodox theology. Be carefull brainwash is a very real behavioral dissorder that occurs frequently within our social structure. I am not condeming a churches followers of those typical churches, A good friend of mine attends one of them. I simply think its sad to see the same love of God in that church as others but the people say they alone have true salvation by some works be it a recreation of the church of acts or what ever they have done here on earth. :amen:

(again I do not debate my view so do not expect a reply whether you aggree or disaggree with this view or any other posted on this forum. If you have a question please feel free to message and I will reply if i feel a response is reasonable.)

God Bless. :prayer:

[Stinker]

To find the 'true' church you have to have a starting point. That starting point is the CONCEPT. Is it the concept of some popular tv evangelist? Is it the concept of someone who you feel emotionally close to? Is it your own personal concept of what the 'true' church should consist of? Or should it be the concept of God's post-Apostlic New Testament church?

If one asks themself; "What would God's church be like?" they would have 2 choices. One would be man's idea (or our idea) and the other would be God's idea. If it's man's idea we choose, then we will see things added in the worship and work of the church and things taken out as well. Interpretation of scripture will be our own private interpretation and not objective. In other words, we will have no fear of spiritual authority in our scripture interpretation outside ourselves.

If we choose God's concept we will use logic (not mysticism) and proper hermeneutics in our search. We will not use private interpretation of scripture, but objective interpretation. We would respect the Bible and let it be the final authority on spiritual matters. Not those who we think are so much more popular and educated.

[JVD]

As was already mentioned, the church is the group of people in the world who trust in Jesus for salvation. So when you are worshiping with anyone from that group...you are with the true church. After you start to fine tune your doctrine (as we all do), you will find points of difference, but you are still in the true church.



If we choose God's concept we will use logic (not mysticism) and proper hermeneutics in our search. We will not use private interpretation of scripture, but objective interpretation. We would respect the Bible and let it be the final authority on spiritual matters. Not those who we think are so much more popular and educated.

Of course we may use logic and proper hermeneutics, but we are stil human and you will come up with different objective interpretations than mine...so there we go.

[Wisdom's Child]

Christianity that obeys and teaches the entire Bible and adds nothing else. If it marginalizes Scripture, watch out. If they add their own teachings or books, such as the Book of Mormon or other teaching that is not Biblical, watch out.
The entire Bible?
I don't think that I have that one...

Which current Bible would you say is the Next Best Thing?

[okiemommy26]

The entire Bible?
I don't think that I have that one...

Which current Bible would you say is the Next Best Thing?
I have KJV King James Version people say its the closes you can get unless you can read Hebrew. I know some people dont agree and also the KJV is harder to understand cause of the old english.

[Toms777]

Remember how Mormonism started out? Joseph Smith went out and prayed and wanted to know out of all the earth's religion's which one was the right one. An demon appeared to him as an angel of light and told him none of them, and the cult of Mormonism was born.

I hesitate, however, to say that there is no such thing as the one true church. But to me the one true church is every born again believer in Jesus Christ no matter where they are on the earth and no matter what church they attend.
This is the true church: people who have believed on Christ, not an organization or a building but a living organism. The true church of Christ, in my opinion, isn't a visible, physical organization.
Quite right. Those who believe that the true church is a building, denomination or organization have made an error in reading the Bible. The word translated as church is "ekklesia" which means the "called out ones", thus referring to indidviduals and not the organization.

1 Cor 12:26-27
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

Eph 5:23
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV

[PaladinGirl]

No one Christian denomination is the one "true" denomination. God sees all of us as His children. Just because we have disagreements on some theological matters doesn't make us anymore right or wrong in my opinion.

[Lynn73]

I was thinking about this thread last night (boy must I be a net junkie) and something came to me along with what I've already said. In answer to which church is the right church I think that any church or local body of believers, if you will; that believes, teaches, and preaches the Bible as the infallible, inerrant word of God is the right church. Any church that stands on it as the final authority is the right church. Any church that teaches that Jesus Christ is the only way for anyone to be saved is the right church. Any church that lovingly stands on these things and preaches the gospel of Christ without compromise is the right church. Any church that loves people and meets needs is the right church. Does that make any sense? I'm sure more could be added. Any visible organization that says "we're the one true church that Christ established and you need to belong to us to be saved or to have full communion with the church" is very wrong in my opinion. We've already established what the church is: us. While these organized churches that insist they are the one true church go on about their business, Jesus is going on about His business adding daily to His church those who are being saved through faith in Him.

[twistedsketch]

The entire Bible?
I don't think that I have that one...


They're sold all the time in Christian bookstores, and a good church might hook you up for free. :cool:

[muffler dragon]

I realize that StevenL will jump all over me for saying this, but I can handle it. :D

I believe that the correct religion is Judaism. I do not discount Y'shua as Messiah. But I do discount the idea that he came to start a new religion.

m.d.

[StevenL]

Nah, MD, you can believe, of course, whatever you wish. :) I've already quoted the Scripture, written by a Jew, that defines the correct religion. Nothing to do with any ...ism. All the ...isms have already proved their worth.

[muffler dragon]

Nah, MD, you can believe, of course, whatever you wish. :) I've already quoted the Scripture, written by a Jew, that defines the correct religion. Nothing to do with any ...ism. All the ...isms have already proved their worth.
I was all prepared to brace myself for a tongue-lashing. :D

I do appreciate the kindness though. Btw, would you explain to me what you mean by the 'ism' statement? Not quite sure.

Thanks, brother, and have a good afternoon.

m.d.

[newname]

there is not a "true" denomination,

all of the body of Christ is the church,

if you want the truth above everything else and seek it, God will show it to you, no matter what denomination you are attending,

this is a hard saying for most Christians, study and "seek ye first the kingdom of God" and you will find it,

there is truth in ALL the Christian denominations, but there is also FALSNESS in ALL the Christian denominations, it will be God that leads you to all the truth, not man,

i pray that you continue to seek the truth, God knows your heart,
newname

[StevenL]

Pentecostalism, trinitarianism, onenessism, univeralism, baptistism, Calvinism, Arminianism, ......all equally worthless. :)

[muffler dragon]

Pentecostalism, trinitarianism, onenessism, univeralism, baptistism, Calvinism, Arminianism, ......all equally worthless. :)
I want to tell you that I absolutely love your candid nature. It's refreshing to see someone be a straight shooter as much as you are.

Now, granted, I don't always agree, but your forthrightness is awesome.

m.d.

[Triangulation]

Hi muffler dragon, I wanted to ask you if you beleive that Jesus went to the cross for your sins and if you beleive that God raised Him from the grave?

I'm asking this because I don't understand what you mean by a new religion.

<><

The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord shine His face upon you, and give you peace.

[muffler dragon]

Hi muffler dragon, I wanted to ask you if you beleive that Jesus went to the cross for your sins and if you beleive that God raised Him from the grave?

I'm asking this because I don't understand what you mean by a new religion.

<><

The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord shine His face upon you, and give you peace.
I'll try to make this short and concise for you, Triangulation, but please feel free to ask me anything you like if I don't make it clear.

In regards to your first question, the base foundation that you are asking me about is salvation. Correct? With the thought that my assumption is correct, I believe that salvation has always been offered by the grace of G-d alone. Through out the Scripture of the Tanakh (OT), you will see that salvation was given to those who were penitent (repentant). Furthermore, the death on the cross by Y'shua (Jesus) was more to removal the bill of divorce that G-d had issued Israel in the books of Jeremiah and Hosea. So, I believe that his death was, in fact, very important, and achieved a great many things; but I view the way to salvation as being different.

Question #2: Yes, I believe that G-d raised him from the grave.

Question #3 (that you did not ask, but may have forgotten due to your last statement): I do not believe that Y'shua came to start a new religion, because he was a Jew always. He observed the Torah, and directed others to obey it. Neither he nor his disciples recanted or negated their Jewish beliefs, they simply remained Jews who believed that Y'shua was HaMoshiach (the Messiah). This did not immediately transform into Christians. Instead, it brought clarity and understanding to the Torah. We could get into a lot more here, but I think this is sufficient for now. Please do not hesitate to ask anything that you would like.

m.d.

[Triangulation]

To your first response my answer is I wasn't asking you about salvation. I was asking you if you believe that Jesus went to the cross for your sins and if God raised Him from the dead?

Since you answered the second part that he did resurrect. Do you believe that He went to the cross to offer up the sins of man kind as written by the prophet Isaiah in the book of Isaiah chapter 52 verse 13-15 and Chapter 53. I would be happy to show you other places in scripture about this if you require it.

To your third response. Then how did he start a new religion?

<><

Praise the Lord! For it is good to sing praises to our God.

[muffler dragon]

To your first response my answer is I wasn't asking you about salvation. I was asking you if you believe that Jesus went to the cross for your sins and if God raised Him from the dead?

Okay. So going to the cross for your sins has nothing to do with salvation? Anyways...

Since you answered the second part that he did resurrect. Do you believe that He went to the cross to offer up the sins of man kind as written by the prophet Isaiah in the book of Isaiah chapter 52 verse 13-15 and Chapter 53. I would be happy to show you other places in scripture about this if you require it.

I am quite aware of the entire Suffering Servant passage. I am quite aware of most Messianic Scripture in the Tanakh; therefore, no, I do not need you to show me other places.

But I would like to ask you a question. Are you a Jew or Jewish? Because the possessive terms used within the Suffering Servant text are things such as 'our' and 'we'. Since the author of the text is Isaiah, and Isaiah is a Jew, do you think that plays a role in the context of the passage? If not, then how do you validate it?

To your third response. Then how did he start a new religion?

My assertion is that he did not start a new religion. Can you show me anywhere that Y'shua said, "This will be my new religion." or "From now on you are to follow me and do this instead" or "Disregard the religion of our fathers" or "Ya wanna know something? The original plan that our G-d had for humanity has changed; therefore, I have come to make things right and I am here to show you the new way to get to heaven"?

Did Y'shua ever say any of those things or anything like it? My contention is, "No".

Lastly, I have presented reasons within this last portion that you have completely dismissed. If you decide that that is the way you are going to conduct our conversation and dialogue, then we can just drop it here. I have no interest whatsoever in having to address things stated by others when my statements are completely dropped. And just in case you decide to quip with something like, "And what assertions/statements are those?" I will give you a reminding summary:

Jesus did not come to start a new religion, "because he was a Jew always. He observed the Torah, and directed others to obey it. Neither he nor his disciples recanted or negated their Jewish beliefs, they simply remained Jews who believed that Y'shua was HaMoshiach (the Messiah). This did not immediately transform into Christians. Instead, it brought clarity and understanding to the Torah."

m.d.

[JVD]

You probably answered this somewhere MD...but do you discount the writings of Paul?

[StevenL]

I was all prepared to brace myself for a tongue-lashing. :D

I do appreciate the kindness though. Btw, would you explain to me what you mean by the 'ism' statement? Not quite sure.

Thanks, brother, and have a good afternoon.

m.d.
Well dang, I hate I disappointed you! I'll reserve an especially searing tongue-lashing just for you in a near-future post. :thumbsup:

[muffler dragon]

You probably answered this somewhere MD...but do you discount the writings of Paul?
I haven't answered in this thread.

I do not discount the writings of Sha'ul.

However, I do operate in a different light regarding them. Let me explain.

I view Sha'ul's words as commentary. Therefore, while they still hold great value; they do not outrank the Torah or Tanakh. Thus, if there is anything in Sha'ul's writings that would be considered counter to the Torah/Tanakh; then I hold it in a suspect light. Furthermore, I try to evaluate Sha'ul's words in the complete context within which they were written. I try to remember that this he is a Torah-observant Jew, the audience that he was writing to, the cultural scene that that audience is surrounded by and so forth. I find that it is improper Scriptural evaluation to take Sha'ul's words at face value (as so many are inclined to do).

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

Well dang, I hate I disappointed you! I'll reserve an especially searing tongue-lashing just for you in a near-future post. :thumbsup:
Please don't. I was PLEASANTLY surprised. :D

[Christian1004]

im not here to offend anyones religion and i dont know eveything i need to know about the bible but the thing is not every church out there teaches the word of god... yes they all say jesus is the son of god, and they all teach basically the same principles BUT the thing that ive found from the church of chirst is this... other churches believe in sprinkling of water to be baptised, the bible says your must be burried in water, BURRIED, meaning completely covered not sprinkled... some even say that baptism isnt even essential for baptism but it is the bible says so... also churched say that dancing or co-ed swimming is ok, the bible speaks on that as well because of the thoughts that it can bring to peoples mind when they do these things... some churches call their preachers "reverend"... reverend means of highest power which is god himself.... others call their preachers father. the bible says that the one that should be call "father, or reverend" is god himself and no one else. once again im not trying to offend any one here im just posting my thoughts like everyone else is. i know everyone says this about there church but to me the church of christ goes completely by the bible.. the subject of music is another contraversy... the bible says that music is ok OUTSIDE of worship, such as on your own time or anywhere outside of the church. the bible says to sing with your hearts. i dont know all of these versus my heart but ive read them and/or heard them tought. and about the relationship with god yes your suppose to have a relationship with god but your also suppose to have a religion and faith to go by. yoru suppose to attend church regularly... how many churches serve the lords supper upon the first days of the week? not many that i know of.... the church of christ does... each sunday... the bible says you are suppose to break bread and drink fruit of the fine upon the first day of the week... "do this in rememberence of me" sound familiar?

[StevenL]

Please don't. I was PLEASANTLY surprised. :D
Oh....rats. :sigh: I was already digging through my arsenal.

[StevenL]

"some churches call their preachers "reverend"... reverend means of highest power which is god himself.... others call their preachers father. the bible says that the one that should be call "father, or reverend" is god himself and no one else."

I agree!

"the bible says that music is ok OUTSIDE of worship, such as on your own time or anywhere outside of the church."

No it doesn't.

"the bible says to sing with your hearts"

Sure does!

"the bible says you are suppose to break bread and drink fruit of the fine upon the first day of the week"

No it doesn't.

"i dont know all of these versus my heart but ive read them and/or heard them tought."

That's right. You don't know them. But you did hear them....from the denomination called the Church of Christ. You sound just like a carbon copy. :)

You've offended no one here, I'll bet. Not me anyway. Glad to have you and your ideas here. God bless you 1004.

[JVD]

Hi 1004

im not here to offend anyones religion

No offense taken. I don't think we should take offense easily anyway. I try not to worry to much about offending others as well. As long as we are polite, we have a right to voice our opinions.

I do think you should study the Word...many churches have their own "traditions" that have become "truth" to them. I believe many of the things you mentioned are in the "tradition" category. Of course the Church of Christ will have scripture to back up every tradition...they all do. But they themselves are human, and are interpreting the scripture to back their own tradition.


MD..very interesting. I'm going to have to think about this a bit. Would you call yourself a Messianic Jew as opposed to a Hebrew Christian? Or are you something else entirely?

So is your belief that Christ's death accomplished the propitiation for the sin of the world? Or for Israel only?

And who is Jesus Christ to you?

I am not baiting you and will not jump on you...(hopefully no on else does)...I am just interested in your interpretation of scripture.

[muffler dragon]

other churches believe in sprinkling of water to be baptised, the bible says your must be burried in water, BURRIED, meaning completely covered not sprinkled... some even say that baptism isnt even essential for baptism but it is the bible says so

I see the gentleness with which you are presenting on this thread, so I want you to know I, too, am approaching you with the same kindness. Keep that in mind.

As I've addressed in this thread and elsewhere, salvation (being saved) is by the grace of G-d alone. I would like to share with you a few passages so that you might be able to see that this has always been the case. Okay?

Isaiah 45
22
"(1) Turn to Me and (2) be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

Turning to G-d is the act of repentence.

Isaiah 30
15 For thus the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, has said,
"In repentance and (1) rest you will be saved,
In (2) quietness and trust is your strength."
But you were not willing,

Ezekiel 18
32 "For I have (1) no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Matthew 3
1 Now (1) in those days (2) John the Baptist came, preaching in the (3) wilderness of Judea, saying,
2 "(4) Repent, for (5) the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
3 For this is the (6) one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said,
"(7) THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
'(8) MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'"
4 Now John himself had (9) a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was (10) locusts and wild honey.
5 Then Jerusalem (11) was going out to him, and all Judea and all (12) the district around the Jordan;
6 and they were being (13) baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the (14) Pharisees and (15) Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You (16) brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from (17) the wrath to come?
8 "(18) Therefore bear fruit (19) in keeping with repentance;
9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, '(20) We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
10 "The (21) axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore (22) every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 "As for me, (23) I baptize you [1] with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; (24) He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 "His (25) winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will (26) gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the (27) chaff with (28) unquenchable fire."

I have italicized that portion regarding baptism to show one thing: baptism is an outward sign of an inward heart condition. It is not essential for salvation; the heart condition (penitent) is. One must come before the other, and the former happens to be repentence.

Shalom,

m.d.

[Christian1004]

I have italicized that portion regarding baptism to show one thing: baptism is an outward sign of an inward heart condition. It is not essential for salvation; the heart condition (penitent) is. One must come before the other, and the former happens to be repentence.
why was jesus himself baptised... BURRIED in water... although jesus wasnt baptised for the forgiveness and remission of his sins only because jesus knew no sin... meaning jesus was baptised because baptism IS essential for salvation.

[muffler dragon]

Dear JVD:

I, sincerely, appreciate the openness of your query. It's good to know that I shall not be overtly attacked for answering you. :)

I am also glad to hear that this has raised a level of interest enough to think about. That's what my aim is; nothing more, nothing less.

Anyways.. on to your questions.

MD..very interesting. I'm going to have to think about this a bit. Would you call yourself a Messianic Jew as opposed to a Hebrew Christian? Or are you something else entirely?

I consider myself a Messianic Gentile. Isaiah 56 sums it up very well.

Isaiah 56
1
Thus says the LORD,
"(1) Preserve justice and do righteousness,
For My (2) salvation is about to come
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2
"How (3) blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who (4) takes hold of it;
Who (5) keeps from profaning the sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
3
Let not the (6) foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely separate me from His people."
Nor let the (7) eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."
4 For thus says the LORD,
"To the eunuchs who (8) keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And (9) hold fast My covenant,
5
To them I will give in My (10) house and within My (11) walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting (12) name which (13) will not be cut off.
6
"Also the (14) foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD,
To be His servants, every one who (15) keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7
Even (16) those I will bring to My (17) holy mountain
And (18) make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on (19) My altar;
For (20) My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples."

To put it simply, my goal is to emulate Y'shua in any way possible. He was a Torah-observant Jew; therefore, my goal is to be Torah-observant. The conversion part would be up to G-d. I was born a Gentile or a reason, and until He says otherwise, that is what I will stay.

So is your belief that Christ's death accomplished the propitiation for the sin of the world? Or for Israel only?

It's a little bit more in-depth than a simple affirmative or negation to your question. First off, I will state openly that I am not fully knowledgeable of all the work that was accomplished upon the cross by HaMoshiach. However, there are a number of things that definitely come to mind that I am quite sure of:

1) The death on the cross removed the 'get' or bill of divorce that G-d had issued to Israel. This is seen in Jeremiah and Hosea.
2) In comparison to the Passover lamb, the death on the cross symbolizes the freedom that G-d is giving to His people from the bondage of man-made doctrines. This is a very in-depth topic that we can discuss elsewhere.
3) So to answer your question directly (or as best I can), by accepting the life that Y'shua lived and taking that as my goal, I can understand the Way of G-d without dogma/tradition/or any other type of addition or subtraction. In that manner, I am able to live a life that is pleasing to G-d. Therefore, in a way, yes, Y'shua's death on the cross has helped remove my sin from before G-d. However, my repentence unto the One Whom I have sinned against is the establishing factor. In regards to the sins of Israel, when the bill of divorce was revoked; it essentially removed the sins of the people of Israel so that they could once again partake of their calling: a nation of priests. Did any of this make sense to you? If not, please feel free to PM me about it.

And who is Jesus Christ to you?

I am not baiting you and will not jump on you...(hopefully no on else does)...I am just interested in your interpretation of scripture.

Y'shua is my Elohim, my L-rd. Without His clarification and subsequent understanding of Torah, I wouldn't know my up from down. He is, indeed, my hero and head. I will let you know publicly that I do not discuss/debate/banter about the doctrine of the trinity. So, I hope that I have answered your question sufficiently.

Thank you for asking.
Have a pleasant evening.

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

why was jesus himself baptised... BURRIED in water... although jesus wasnt baptised for the forgiveness and remission of his sins only because jesus knew no sin... meaning jesus was baptised because baptism IS essential for salvation.
If you want to believe that, then you are, by all means, welcome to. I have shown you in Scripture that repentence is more pertinent to the picture than baptism. Lastly, salvation is by the grace of G-d alone. As G-d clearly states,

Exodus 33
19 And He said, "(1) I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and (2) I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

Now, here is one thing that I would like for you to do for me, if you are willing:

Can you show me one Scripture from the Tanakh (OT) that says, "one must be baptised to be saved." I will even allow for it to be intimated by context. I am 99.99% sure that you will not find such a Scripture. Therefore, I will implore you to investigate your assertion, because to have a doctrine made only from the "New" Testament is a very suspect doctrine. And the reason I say that is because the Bible for the first century Jews (and the standard with which everything is judged by) is the Tanakh (OT). If your doctrine isn't in there, then you might not want to trust in it too far. Just MHO.

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

Oh....rats. :sigh: I was already digging through my arsenal.
I can't see you being that disappointed, Steven. You know I got nothin' but love for you, MAN!!!

I enjoy you too much for you to come give me a whoopin'.

[Christian1004]

If i may remind you although we do still study the (OT) today "we" as in christians go by the (NT). and if you can do something to prove to me that we dont then go right ahead. as soon a jesus died the "new law" came into effect which is he (NT). in the new law instead of using animal sacrifises we can repent to god... but we still MUST be baptised by immersion of water.

[Christian1004]

matthew 28:18-2018 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. matthew 28:18-2019 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

matthew 28:2020 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.acts 10:47-4847 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? acts 10:4848 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.do you need any more... i got plenty

[JVD]

MD...I appreciate your answers to my questions. Won't go into it more right now except to ask this:

Are you all alone in the world, or are their groups of similar believers?

[Christian1004]

"the bible says that music is ok OUTSIDE of worship, such as on your own time or anywhere outside of the church."
No it doesn't. STEVENL
if you would read in your bible ephesians 5:19, colossians 3:16 and reply back

[Christian1004]

"the bible says you are suppose to break bread and drink fruit of the fine upon the first day of the week"
No it doesn't. STEVENL
OOH! but it does....
matthew 26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.


matthew 26:27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;matthew 26:28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.acts 20:7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

reply??

[Triangulation]

I want to tell you that I absolutely love your candid nature. It's refreshing to see someone be a straight shooter as much as you are.

Now, granted, I don't always agree, but your forthrightness is awesome.

m.d.So what's the problem? None of those faiths say He started a new religion.

I have edited this post, in hope of clarity.

Jesus was more then a Jew or a man He was King of the Jews and His own disciples believed He is King of Kings. He died for the Jews and Gentiles. That we may become children of God justified by His grace given to us by His death on the cross.

His resurrection is a promises from God that we also will resurrect because He took the wrath for our sins, that means all of the wrath that would have been placed on us, instead God poured out on His only Son at the cross to pay the price in our place.

Asking you if you believe He went to the cross for sins does not mean I have to be talking about salvation. You mentioned Grace as salvation I wasn't talking about grace, I was asking what you believed.

Do you trust the Gospel? Did you know that there are many Jewish people in the world that do? The title Christian has been abused for ages, but I still am a Christian because I follow Christ Jesus the Lord.

I was asking if you believed He went to the cross for sins? Obviously you seem to have a problem with the question so I'll lay off. Also you don't have to quote every word I say. Just talk to me as if I were a person.

<><

As for your questions about Jesus. He was the laws, He lived the laws that is one reason why He is believed perfect. The leaders at the time that played a part in His execution opposed His teaching and His resurrection. That is why the followers of Jesus were martyred. This is my last reply please respond to me in message if you have further questions.

[Wisdom's Child]

How about....

Acts 2:46-47
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

So is it on the First Day of the week, or is it Every Day of the week?

[Christian1004]

those vs. are saying jesus added to the church DAILY the ones who are being saved... i didnt but those vs. in about the lords supper because its not talking about the lords supper.... its saying breaking bread from house to house... thats nothing to do with the church or rememberence on the first day of the week.

[New_Wineskin]

I realize that StevenL will jump all over me for saying this, but I can handle it. :D

I believe that the correct religion is Judaism. I do not discount Y'shua as Messiah. But I do discount the idea that he came to start a new religion.

m.d.
I agree with you that He didn't come to start a new religion . But , I also don't see Him bringing Gentiles to what was given to the Israelites , either . Though I do not have a problem with any Gentile practicing it .

[muffler dragon]

If i may remind you although we do still study the (OT) today "we" as in christians go by the (NT). and if you can do something to prove to me that we dont then go right ahead. as soon a jesus died the "new law" came into effect which is he (NT). in the new law instead of using animal sacrifises we can repent to god... but we still MUST be baptised by immersion of water.

Are you going to avoid my request and bring up other obscure fallacies about Judaism? How about we stick with one point at a time? Can you show where baptism is essential for salvation in the Tanakh?

I can show you to a much greater degree how salvation and atonement never came from a sacrifice. Sacrifice is much like baptism: an outward expression of an inward condition. Neither one is essential for salvation.

[muffler dragon]

matthew 28:18-2018 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. matthew 28:18-2019 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

matthew 28:2020 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.acts 10:47-4847 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? acts 10:4848 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.do you need any more... i got plenty
You might want to check the realization of this text. The baptism in the name of the Trinity is a late addition. A lot of Bibles will foot note this, others will not.

Once again, I ask, can you show me anything from the Tanakh?

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

MD...I appreciate your answers to my questions. Won't go into it more right now except to ask this:

Are you all alone in the world, or are their groups of similar believers?
I'm not quite alone. :D

There are others who believe the same.

[Christian1004]

If we were still under the (OT) law this would be a different story but shown in...
hebrews 9:1515 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
hebrews 9:1616 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. hebrews 9:1717 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.romans 15:4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (meaning after jesus died the OT became learning for us not our law)

[muffler dragon]

So what's the problem? None of those faiths say He started a new religion.

I don't understand why you are quoting Steven in a statement to me, but I will ask you a question to try to get a clarification. Do you believe that Judaism and Christianity are the same? If you answer no, then obviously, we are dealing with two separate religions.

Jesus was more then a Jew or a man He was King of the Jews and His own disciples believed He was King of Kings. He died for the Jews and Gentiles. That we may become children of God justified by His grace given to us by His death on the cross.

Are you saying the plan of salvation has changed since the beginning of time? Are you saying that G-d had to change how He operated with humanity? Are you saying that the religion that He started was insufficient in some way, shape or form? Can you validate your assumption that Y'shua came to start a new religion?

His resurrection is a promises from God that we also will resurrect because our sins died with Him.

Resurrection is a belief that Pharisees had before the act was performed by Y'shua. It was not a new consideration.

Asking you if you believe He went to the cross for sins does not mean I have to be talking about salvation. You mentioned Grace as salvation I wasn't talking about grace, I was asking what you believed.

If the forgiveness of sins is not for salvation, then what is the point? I am talk about base principles here; whereas you are trying to make semantics out of it.

Do you trust the Gospel?

I trust in G-d.

Did you know that there are many Jewish people in the world that do? The title Christian has been abused for ages, but I still am a Christian because I follow Christ Jesus the Lord.

The title was originally a derogatory term. The title Christian has been given to myriads that have abused and killed Jews. But let's not talk about emotional arguments. Instead, Let's understand something very clear: there are Jews who accept Y'shua as Messiah, but that does not make them Christians. There is a wide chasm of meaning between the two situations.

I was asking if you believed He went to the cross for sins? Obviously you seem to have a problem with the question so I'll lay off.

I tried to answer the question to the best of my ability. My understanding of what has transpired is much different than yours. Therefore, I cannot offer up a simple contracted statement. I was trying to give you some background.

Also you don't have to quote every word I say. Just talk to me as if I were a person.

I'm not trying to demean you by the way I am corresponding. Instead, I am trying to present statements in line with yours so that I don't make the mistake of presenting something falsely. I would much rather have an accurate statement than be accused of unintentional libel.

As for your questions about Jesus. He was the laws, He lived the laws that is one reason why He is believed perfect. The leaders at the time that played a part in His execution opposed His teaching and His resurrection. That is why the followers of Jesus were martyred. This is my last reply please respond to me in message if you have further questions.

I'm not understanding as to how this plays a role in our conversation. Forgive my ignorance, but are you trying to corroborate the beginning of a new religion with the idea of martyrdoms?

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

If we were still under the (OT) law this would be a different story but shown in...
hebrews 9:1515 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
hebrews 9:1616 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. hebrews 9:1717 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.romans 15:4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (meaning after jesus died the OT became learning for us not our law)
Okay, it would have been a lot better (and quicker) if you had simply stated, "I cannot substantiate my beliefs with Scripture in the Tanakh." That's all that you had to do.

I deal with the book of Hebrews all day long (or at least it feels that way). It is not a part of this thread, and therefore, if you really want to discuss your contentions further; then I suggest you make a new thread about them.

But seriously, it is not a shameful thing to say that you believe a doctrine that is only based on "New" Testament Scripture. Just don't expect me to agree with it.

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

Listen folks. Here's the thing.

I knew posting as I did from the jump would potentially set a number of things in motion: such as disgruntlement, gasping, irritation and whatever negative emotion the human being can concoct. But I assure you: this was not my motive. Instead, I am trying to operate under the 'iron sharpens iron' mentality. What good is your faith if it can't stand up to criticism? What would be the problem with questioning the things that you might be taking for granted? And lastly, a lot of people never hear things from this point of view. I used to be the nominal Christian. I was raised Congregationalist and then became Pentecostal/Charismatic in college. I know the rules of the game fairly well. I have also had my foundation shaken to the very core, BUT G-d stood firm. In all that has transpired, He has not let me down. I know for a fact that He will do the same for you. So, just think about what I present. I'm not here to start fights, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

Triangulation:

I have meant you no ill will. I run into bitterness and disgust all day long when on these boards, and when I felt like you were getting critical of me in a less than inquisitive manner, I became overly assertive. I ask for your forgiveness. I wanted to bring this out publicly, so that you know (and everyone else reading it knows) that I mean you no harm.

m.d.

[Christian1004]

im just proving my points at everything that is put toward me... by using scriptures to back everything up which is what im suppose to do just like everyone else is trying to do as well... if you want to tell me to do something else then tell it to everyone else which is doing the same thing im doing... trying to prove a point with scripture.

[muffler dragon]

im just proving my points at everything that is put toward me... by using scriptures to back everything up which is what im suppose to do just like everyone else is trying to do as well... if you want to tell me to do something else then tell it to everyone else which is doing the same thing im doing... trying to prove a point with scripture.
Christian:

I am trying to do just that. I am not singling you out. I ask this in most threads of a contentious manner.

I am trying to admonish you to truly search out the entire Scriptures. If you didn't have the "New" Testament to rely on, then would you feel scared or secure in knowing that G-d does not change?

That's something that people need to evaluate. If Y'shua and all the other Apostles and early believers were perfectly fine and felt secure in just having the Tanakh, then why can't we?

That's why I find myself very skeptical of doctrines only in the "New" Testament. The validity of the "New" Testament is found in the Tanakh. That's just the way it is.

I admire that you present Scripture for your arguments. I am trying to stretch you to get the entire picture.

m.d.

[ChadWB6886]

what i cant understand is why are yall using the (OT) and an offense or something i mean the (OT) has been done away with other than just learning about how things were done back then... the (NT) is what everyone goes by now the bible says so shown by christian1004

[New_Wineskin]

What good is your faith if it can't stand up to criticism? What would be the problem with questioning the things that you might be taking for granted?
Quite right . The thing is ... people may think that if one of their doctrines is incorrect , maybe a lot of their doctrines are incorrect . It could be a scary thing for some people .

[New_Wineskin]

what i cant understand is why are yall using the (OT) and an offense or something i mean the (OT) has been done away with other than just learning about how things were done back then... the (NT) is what everyone goes by now the bible says so shown by christian1004
This is interesting .

Look at christian1004's posts in this thread and compare them to this . Notice the use of small letters and the use of punctuation ?

[ChadWB6886]

the thing is, is that the only "doctrine" you should go by is the word of god... if any church teaches anything else besides that then they could be classified as a false teacher... the church or christ goes by gods "doctrine" the bible... gods word.

[muffler dragon]

agree with you that He didn't come to start a new religion . But , I also don't see Him bringing Gentiles to what was given to the Israelites , either . Though I do not have a problem with any Gentile practicing it .

Quite right . The thing is ... people may think that if one of their doctrines is incorrect , maybe a lot of their doctrines are incorrect . It could be a scary thing for some people .

I didn't mean to forget about you, NW. I had to go take a shower.

I understand where you are coming from on the first part, and I completely agree with the second.

You and I are very close, but yet, we still have our differences, huh? :D

[muffler dragon]

what i cant understand is why are yall using the (OT) and an offense or something i mean the (OT) has been done away with other than just learning about how things were done back then... the (NT) is what everyone goes by now the bible says so shown by christian1004
I'm afraid, Chad, that you're understanding of the Bible might be slightly skewed.

Some time, if you are interested, we should sit down and discuss this presupposition of yours.

In the meantime, I just say, "I disagree emphatically."

[muffler dragon]

the thing is, is that the only "doctrine" you should go by is the word of god... if any church teaches anything else besides that then they could be classified as a false teacher... the church or christ goes by gods "doctrine" the bible... gods word.
So what happens if something in the "New" Testament contradicts a teaching in the "Old"? Are you going to assert that G-d changes? Because He has set forth in His Word that He does not change.

m.d.

[ChadWB6886]

so your dissagreeing that we only go by the (NT) law now?

[muffler dragon]

This is interesting .

Look at christian1004's posts in this thread and compare them to this . Notice the use of small letters and the use of punctuation ?
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that they are two separate people. :D

It does make you wonder though.

[muffler dragon]

so your dissagreeing that we only go by the (NT) law now?
I completely disagree, Yes.

[ChadWB6886]

because gods word IS the (NT) teaching

[muffler dragon]

Ah, NW, they are not the same person. They are both on the thread at the same time. So much for the conspiracy theory. :)

[muffler dragon]

because gods word IS the (NT) teaching
Interesting belief. Completely wrong, but entirely interesting. Any chance you would like to take the time and present an argument from the entire Bible that shows your belief to be correct?

[New_Wineskin]

I didn't mean to forget about you, NW. I had to go take a shower.
Your daily baptism , huh ? ;)



I understand where you are coming from on the first part, and I completely agree with the second.

You and I are very close, but yet, we still have our differences, huh? :D
It appears that we had the same questions at some time . I was close to going in your direction but the Lord had another idea in mind for me . I am glad for the similarities . :)

[muffler dragon]

Your daily baptism , huh ? ;)



It appears that we had the same questions at some time . I was close to going in your direction but the Lord had another idea in mind for me . I am glad for the similarities . :)
Yeah, but I wasn't "burried" in it. Just wetted down.

Sorry for the humor at your expense, christian1004. I won't do it again.

Btw, NW, I have faith. I'm sure you'll come this direction eventually. :D

[Rosa Mystica]

What's the right religion? I believe it's mine. Otherwise, I wouldn't be in it. :)

I realize that most of you will probably disagree, so carry on. :)

[New_Wineskin]

Ah, NW, they are not the same person. They are both on the thread at the same time. So much for the conspiracy theory. :)
I carefully stated that it was "interesting" . :cool: Whether the same person under two names or two people with such a noticeable similarity in writing , at least *I* consider that as interesting . A person can use two pc's at the same time to be logged on as two people . Not that this is going on . ;)

[ChadWB6886]

well dont you think that if we were under the (OT) law then we would still offer animal scarifises, we couldnt jsut ask for gods forgivness, in the (OT) god could make desicions like he did on the cross with the theif he said you are saved and the thief went to heaven but once christ died the (NT) law came into effect and now you have to follow his word be baptised remain faithful and do all of is works to make it into the kingdom of heaven.... unless you still follow the old law then YOUR the one that need to read gods word

[muffler dragon]

What's the right religion? I believe it's mine. Otherwise, I wouldn't be in it. :)

I realize that most of you will probably disagree, so carry on. :)
Rosa,

You are more than welcome to state what you believe is correct. We're discussing issues a little bit deeper than that though.

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

well dont you think that if we were under the (OT) law then we would still offer animal scarifises, we couldnt jsut ask for gods forgivness,

This is one of the two greatest misconceptions about Judaism. Forgiveness, repentence, and salvation have always been the same with G-d. The sacrifices just happened to be an outward expression of an inward heart condition: repentence.

in the (OT) god could make desicions like he did on the cross with the theif he said you are saved and the thief went to heaven but once christ died the (NT) law came into effect and now you have to follow his word be baptised remain faithful and do all of is works to make it into the kingdom of heaven.... unless you still follow the old law then YOUR the one that need to read gods word

Listen, Chad, I'll state the exact same thing to you that I did to christian1004 (so he can see I don't play favorites). You need to substantiate your claims and beliefs with the entire Word of G-d. The "Old" and "New" Testament. The "New" is based on the "Old"; therefore, it holds the position of standard.

So, once again I ask: Any chance you would like to take the time and present an argument from the entire Bible that shows your belief to be correct?

m.d.

[StevenL]

STEVENL
if you would read in your bible ephesians 5:19, colossians 3:16 and reply back
Ephesians 5
19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

Colossians 3
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

And how do these words tell us not to worship God with instruments unless you do it away from your "church?" They do tell me to sing and make melody in my heart. They don't tell me I can't use an instrument...most people do sing with instruments you know....or that I have to be in a "church" to do this.

[StevenL]

STEVENL
OOH! but it does....
matthew 26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.


matthew 26:27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;matthew 26:28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.acts 20:7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

reply??And where is the command in here for believers to have communion on the first day of every week? All I see is that they were eating on the first day of the week and Paul preached to them. I see no religious command here or anywhere else for believers to meet on the first day of every week or to have communion every time they meet.

Brother, I know exactly where you're coming from. And I know what it's like to THINK you see things in the Bible when they are really not there at all. You think you see those teachings there because a spirit, a denominational spirit, tells you that's what you should see when you read it. So you read it, and instead of just seeing what's actually written, you see huge amounts of additional information. God has to set people free from that spirit. If you're really seeking God, He will eventually show you what is actually WRITTEN. If you're not, you will continue to hallucinate when you are reading. Believe me, I've been through this thing. I just believed what my "pastors" and "teachers" said, and then when I read the Bible, I saw those things there. But then God began to stop me and say, "Is that really what that says there, son? Look at it. Look what it really SAYS." I began to find out that what is actually WRITTEN, in a huge number of instances, was actually the opposite of what I was trained, like a seal with a rubber ball, to see.

Get out of that old nasty, vile religious system and begin to believe WHAT IS WRITTEN. Get into the Spirit and quit fooling with that religious flesh. :)

[Triangulation]

Not a problem m.d. I have been in Saddle Back's Celebrate Recovery most of the evening, I never intended a debate with you, it was only a question. You are forgiven.

<><

[muffler dragon]

Ephesians 5
19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

Colossians 3
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

And how do these words tell us not to worship God with instruments unless you do it away from your "church?" They do tell me to sing and make melody in my heart. They don't tell me I can't use an instrument...most people do sing with instruments you know....or that I have to be in a "church" to do this.
Acapella is okay sometimes. But, Boy!, if you heard me sing alone; you'd be hoping for as many instruments as possible so that it sounded like an instrumental setting. :)

[muffler dragon]

Not a problem m.d. I have been in Saddle Back's Celebrate Recovery most of the evening, I never intended a debate with you, it was only a question. You are forgiven.

<><
Okay. I appreciate that.

[nephilimiyr]

They're so many different religions to choose from out there... alot of people have a hard time deciding which one is which... i personally use to be baptist, about a year and a half ago i started goin to a church of christ with my girlfriend... after about 5 or so months of going and studying i found that i truley believe that i found the right church now... but of course thats what everyone says... i want to go to heaven when i die but i really wanna know, which church is the "true" church?The reason why I am in a non-denominational church was because I wanted to be set free from religion so, which religion is the right one? none of them!
Which church is the true church? The body of Christ.

Are you a child of God? Are you a citizen in the Kingdom of God? If you answered yes to these than you have found the true church.

[Bevlina]

Yes, I want to be set free from religion too. The true church is the Body of Christ.

[Cray]

Religion is a matchbox which people tried too sqeeze elephants into.

[viperblue72]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: StevenL
Ephesians 5
19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Colossians 3
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

And how do these words tell us not to worship God with instruments unless you do it away from your "church?" They do tell me to sing and make melody in my heart. They don't tell me I can't use an instrument...most people do sing with instruments you know....or that I have to be in a "church" to do this.

Acapella is okay sometimes. But, Boy!, if you heard me sing alone; you'd be hoping for as many instruments as possible so that it sounded like an instrumental setting.

it never says you CAN use instruments....so if u do that is ADDING to God's word... A dangerous thing...and besides, just because WE dont like it doesn't make it right. I dont know of many people that enjoy the smell of burning flesh, yet God did (Exodus 29:18; Exodus 29:25; Leviticus 1:13...etc.) Numbers 3:4 Nadab and Abihu tried to change their form of sacrifice and God punished them as God will do when we change our sacrifice in song

[Toms777]

Yes, I want to be set free from religion too. The true church is the Body of Christ.Absolutely right. The word used in scripture which is translated "church" means "the called out ones". It is not a denomination or organization, but the body of indidvidual believers who have received salvation through the grace of Jesus Christ as a result of His sacrifcie on the cross for our sins.

1 Cor 12:26-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV

[StevenL]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: StevenL
Ephesians 5
19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Col

it never says you CAN use instruments....so if u do that is ADDING to God's word... A dangerous thing...and besides, just because WE dont like it doesn't make it right. I dont know of many people that enjoy the smell of burning flesh, yet God did (Exodus 29:18; Exodus 29:25; Leviticus 1:13...etc.) Numbers 3:4 Nadab and Abihu tried to change their form of sacrifice and God punished them as God will do when we change our sacrifice in song
The Bible doesn't say you CAN preach behind a pulpit either. Or that you CAN build a building to worship in. Or that you CAN pop popcorn in the church building. Or that a preacher CAN wear a suit. Or that you CAN sit in pews. Don't drive a car to church either because the Bible doesn't say you CAN. May be an unacceptable mode of transportation for saints, you know. God didn't say you COULD do that.

Silly religion. What a tragedy for lives to be wasted on such.

[viperblue72]

The Bible doesn't say you CAN preach behind a pulpit either. Or that you CAN build a building to worship in. Or that you CAN pop popcorn in the church building. Or that a preacher CAN wear a suit. Or that you CAN sit in pews. Don't drive a car to church either because the Bible doesn't say you CAN. May be an unacceptable mode of transportation for saints, you know. God didn't say you COULD do that.

Silly religion. What a tragedy for lives to be wasted on such.

but it doesn't give a specified way to do any of those things where as praising him he specifically mentions singing but nto instruments

[Toms777]

but it doesn't give a specified way to do any of those things where as praising him he specifically mentions singing but nto instruments1 Chron 13:8
8 Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.
NKJV

Hab 3:19
19 The LORD God is my strength;
He will make my feet like deer's feet,
And He will make me walk on my high hills.
To the Chief Musician. With my stringed instruments.
NKJV

And there are many others....

[viperblue72]

all in the old testament which was done away with on the cross along with animal sacrifices

[Bevlina]

Ah ... but we have heaps of good advice in the OT viper. Also, we have many examples.
Look how Israel was punished for how they acted? These are examples for us to follow.
And to follow, we must do so in total trust, and acknowledgement with CORRECT worship.
Even Moses nearly gave up on the Children of Israel with their complaining.And, God was ready to form a new people through Moses I think. Please correct me if I am wrong somebody...:scratch: - haven't got my Bible out.
All religion and tradition was done away with in the OT including animal sacrifice.

[viperblue72]

I realize that it is there for examples and instruction but not for salvation or matters of the church

[Toms777]

all in the old testament which was done away with on the cross along with animal sacrificesDo you think that God has changed? (Hint: Heb 13:8).

I can show you where the animal sacrifices ceased and why God brought an end to them. Can you show me where in scripture God ended musical instruments as a mode of worship?

Remember, we do not establish doctrine on what scripture does not say.

[perfectlyok2]

Remember, we do not establish doctrine on what scripture does not say.

That is your opinion.

If this is true I guess we can eat hamburgers and french fries during communion because Jesus didnt say we couldnt.

[Toms777]

That is your opinion.
If this is true I guess we can eat hamburgers and french fries during communion because Jesus didnt say we couldnt.Are you suggesting that there is a doctrinal standard equal to that of God's word? If so what is it and upon what authority do you base this claim?

[Bevlina]

There is no doctrinal standard to equal the Word of God. None whatsoever. God never changes. Bread is what Jesus ate at the Last Supper - and we follow His example and do that in Remembrance of Him.
The Scripture is the pure Word of God. Too many have tried to make what they can of it. But, those who truly seek will only come straight back to the Bible again.
All the matters pertaining to how the Body of Christ should perform and act begins in the New Testament. In the New Testament you will find your salvation.
If we do not stick to the Bible - we can become absolutely lost. For that is the INFALLIBLE Word of God.

[perfectlyok2]

I didnt say we have another authority besides the word, Toms777 said we cannot establish doctrine by what the scriptures do not say. He contends even though instruments are not mentioned in the NT that does not mean they cannot be used. So I say, if that is the case, hamburgers and french fries are acceptable at the Lord's table because it does not say we cant use them. I am only using his logic.

I believe in strict adherence to scripture, so in my view, if it is not in the New Testament, or if God is silent on a matter, so am I.

[fiveinjuly]

There is no "religion" that is right. The only thing that is right is the love of Jesus.

[fiveinjuly]

You can argue about doctrine all you want, but I don't think that god is picky about how you praise him, instruments or no. I think that it is kind of a silly thing to argue about.

[Toms777]

I didnt say we have another authority besides the word, Toms777 said we cannot establish doctrine by what the scriptures do not say. He contends even though instruments are not mentioned in the NT that does not mean they cannot be used. So I say, if that is the case, hamburgers and french fries are acceptable at the Lord's table because it does not say we cant use them. I am only using his logic.

Not at all. We know that instruments were used to woprship God in the OT, therefore there is no prohiobition against using instruments for worship and scripture does not show any chnages to that which would prohibit instruments. If instruments were unacceptable, then we would find a chnage being dictated by God in His word.

I believe in strict adherence to scripture, so in my view, if it is not in the New Testament, or if God is silent on a matter, so am I.
Then why are you on a computer discussing doctrine?

[fiveinjuly]

*Points and Laughs* Good question...

[New_Wineskin]

I didnt say we have another authority besides the word, Toms777 said we cannot establish doctrine by what the scriptures do not say. He contends even though instruments are not mentioned in the NT that does not mean they cannot be used. So I say, if that is the case, hamburgers and french fries are acceptable at the Lord's table because it does not say we cant use them. I am only using his logic.

That is correct . According to the Scriptures , they are acceptable for communion .



I believe in strict adherence to scripture, so in my view, if it is not in the New Testament, or if God is silent on a matter, so am I.
You have proved over and over that this is an intentionally false staement . The Scriptures are silent on this particular issue but you do anything but remain silent .

[muffler dragon]

all in the old testament which was done away with on the cross along with animal sacrifices
Here we go again.

Are people ever going to get past this fallacy? I truly wonder.

[muffler dragon]

I realize that it is there for examples and instruction but not for salvation or matters of the church
Wrong once again, in such a short amount of time.

Salvation has always been by the grace of G-d, and salvation has always been available. It's not a new invention from 2000 years ago.

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

I didnt say we have another authority besides the word, Toms777 said we cannot establish doctrine by what the scriptures do not say. He contends even though instruments are not mentioned in the NT that does not mean they cannot be used. So I say, if that is the case, hamburgers and french fries are acceptable at the Lord's table because it does not say we cant use them. I am only using his logic.

I believe in strict adherence to scripture, so in my view, if it is not in the New Testament, or if God is silent on a matter, so am I.
Let me throw in a bigger standard for Scripture:

If it's not in the Tanakh (OT); then it's a suspect doctrine.

[muffler dragon]

There is no "religion" that is right. The only thing that is right is the love of Jesus.
And how would you know the "love of Jesus"? If it is not in a religion, then where do you find it?

[muffler dragon]

That is correct . According to the Scriptures , they are acceptable for communion .



You have proved over and over that this is an intentionally false staement . The Scriptures are silent on this particular issue but you do anything but remain silent .
Actually, NW, it would be a Big Mac and a Coke. Got to have a solid and a liquid to qualify. :P

[Bevlina]

Just a second? Are you mocking the taking of Communion? Let's get this straight before continuing huh? French Fries and hamburger for Communion? Big Mac & coke? What should your faith icon be, I don't see one for you muffler.

[muffler dragon]

Just a second? Are you mocking the taking of Communion? Let's get this straight before continuing huh? French Fries and hamburger for Communion? Big Mac & coke? What should your faith icon be, I don't see one for you muffler.
I'm a Messianic Gentile.

And I believe that "Communion" is actually a Passover meal. I was having sport for the sake of having sport.

[Bevlina]

Wel... do you reckon it's nice to have fun sport about Communion muffler? You're a messianic gentile. Remember, Jesus is Lord. His supper is precious.

[muffler dragon]

Wel... do you reckon it's nice to have fun sport about Communion muffler? You're a messianic gentile. Remember, Jesus is Lord. His supper is precious.
As I mentioned, my understanding of what the "first" Communion was is much different than yours. I believe that the dinner Y'shua had with his Apostles was a Passover meal. They partook of this meal on the "Day of Preparation" as stated in the Gospel of Yochanan (John).

I made light of the Communion in this manner strictly because New Wineskin made a remark I took as humorous.

Do I feel that my remark was sacrilegious? Possibly. It was more based in humor. I imagine that it did not occur to me, because I do not attend a church. Nor do I partake of the "Communion" sacrament.

If you have read other posts of mine in this thread, then you will find that I have a running consideration when it comes to doctrines and theological possibilities. I only espouse traditions and doctrines that have a firm footing in the Tanakh (OT). Since the "Communion" of the church today does not look like a Passover meal, and since it has no validation in the Tanakh, I then find it to be suspect.

However, if you find it appealing (as you obviously do), then I will try to be more respectful in future discussions.

m.d.

[Toms777]

Just a second? Are you mocking the taking of Communion? Let's get this straight before continuing huh? French Fries and hamburger for Communion? Big Mac & coke? What should your faith icon be, I don't see one for you muffler.
With a Big Mac and a Coke, maybe we could make it large yellow arches in the shape of a "M". :D

[StevenL]

"As I mentioned, my understanding of what the "first" Communion was is much different than yours. I believe that the dinner Y'shua had with his Apostles was a Passover meal. They partook of this meal on the "Day of Preparation" as stated in the Gospel of Yochanan (John)."

Ya can't really argue with that one.

[muffler dragon]

"As I mentioned, my understanding of what the "first" Communion was is much different than yours. I believe that the dinner Y'shua had with his Apostles was a Passover meal. They partook of this meal on the "Day of Preparation" as stated in the Gospel of Yochanan (John)."

Ya can't really argue with that one.
This is obviously a rabbit trail. But who cares, right? :D

Steven:

What are your thoughts on Communion as the Church practices it? You're more than welcome to PM if you want.

m.d.

[StevenL]

I meant, MD, that I agree with your statement. The first "communion" was at the passover meal.

As the Church....? Depends on which "church" you're talking about. For some it's a magic ritual that "saves" them. For others it's simply a reminder of the death of the Lord Jesus, the broken body and the shed blood for the sins of the world. Since I'm not a member of The Church, I don't worry much about their practices since all the ritual was fulfilled in the Body of Yeshua. The shadows have been completed and the "Body" or substance is now here. Colossians 2:6-19. :) Our assembly drinks some juice and breaks some bread every once in a while at our meetings to remember the death in a special way, but I remember the death every day without the need for rudimentary elements. His Blood has washed me from my sins and I've been Passed Over and I've been baptized by the Breath of God into the Body of the Anointed Priest (Messiah.) That's really all I need to fulfill "communion." Actually, I'm communing with the Anointed One right now. I like that! May the Lord bless you today.

[muffler dragon]

I meant, MD, that I agree with your statement. The first "communion" was at the passover meal.

As the Church....? Depends on which "church" you're talking about. For some it's a magic ritual that "saves" them. For others it's simply a reminder of the death of the Lord Jesus, the broken body and the shed blood for the sins of the world. Since I'm not a member of The Church, I don't worry much about their practices since all the ritual was fulfilled in the Body of Yeshua. The shadows have been completed and the "Body" or substance is now here. Colossians 2:6-19. :) Our assembly drinks some juice and breaks some bread every once in a while at our meetings to remember the death in a special way, but I remember the death every day without the need for rudimentary elements. His Blood has washed me from my sins and I've been Passed Over and I've been baptized by the Breath of God into the Body of the Anointed Priest (Messiah.) That's really all I need to fulfill "communion." Actually, I'm communing with the Anointed One right now. I like that! May the Lord bless you today.
Dear Steven:

I know that you were agreeing. I sincerely wanted to know how your home fellowship views it. And I thank you for sharing!

Blessings to you as well.

[fiveinjuly]

And how would you know the "love of Jesus"? If it is not in a religion, then where do you find it?
I didn't experience the real love of Christ through religion. What I mean by religion is by getting a group of people together in a big office and deciding on what parts of the bible we're going to believe and what parts to skim over, making a fancy name for the group, and then making all the assemblies under the big group adhere to all of the rules. Religion is man's attempt to get at God through ritual and rules. The pharasies and sadduces were religious.

Sometimes we get so caught up in what we can and can't to that we forget what Jesus did for us. To me religion is a four letter word. It is a word that can be good, but to me it is bad because there are a lot of people who call themselves religous, and if being religous means being like them then I want no part of it.

[fiveinjuly]

I'd also like to say that I've seen more arguments about doctrineon this part of the forum than on any other place. I think that it is kind of ironic...usually I associate people who are non-denominational with people who are against the very attitudes being displayed here.

[perfectlyok2]

Then why are you on a computer discussing doctrine?

Silence in scripture does not prohibit me to discuss it. That is part of the learning right?

However I am contending for the authority of silence. Our worship practices should be limited to the examples of early christians we see in the NT. All I am asking for is an example in the NT for whatever practice you are arguing for so I may examine it myself.

[muffler dragon]

I didn't experience the real love of Christ through religion. What I mean by religion is by getting a group of people together in a big office and deciding on what parts of the bible we're going to believe and what parts to skim over, making a fancy name for the group, and then making all the assemblies under the big group adhere to all of the rules. Religion is man's attempt to get at God through ritual and rules. The pharasies and sadduces were religious.

Sometimes we get so caught up in what we can and can't to that we forget what Jesus did for us. To me religion is a four letter word. It is a word that can be good, but to me it is bad because there are a lot of people who call themselves religous, and if being religous means being like them then I want no part of it.
And yet, without direct revelation from G-d in some sort of written form, we would all just be wandering around like chickens with our heads cut off.

I see where you're coming from and I understand it truly. However, I can't say that I agree with that mentality any longer. I used to believe that way.

And since you brought up Pharisees and Saduccess, I will go ahead and assume that you have preconceived notions that Judaims was a religion of works. If this is correct, then let me go ahead and present to you the factual statement: that belief is completely incorrect.

My belief (and yes, it is a belief) is that G-d made Himself known to the fathers of Judaism. I further take my belief to the point that I do not believe that Y'shua (Jesus) came to start a new religion. Therefore, in staying within the OP, I have already stated that I believe Judaism is the right religion. Y'shua came for a number of reasons, but one major one was to provide clarification, understanding and correction on the Torah.

Anyways... that's something we can get into later.

The problem with your assertion of relationship over religion is the fact that relationships can be quirky; whereas, a religion, such as Judaism, has guidelines and such to try to keep such quirks from becoming rampant.

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

I'd also like to say that I've seen more arguments about doctrineon this part of the forum than on any other place. I think that it is kind of ironic...usually I associate people who are non-denominational with people who are against the very attitudes being displayed here.
Whereas, I find that the majority of non-denominational believers are cognitive, thinking agents who like to explore the Word and have deep discussions. This, too, happens in other denominations, but I find that non-denom espouses it the most.

Guess it's a difference of perspective.

m.d.

[fiveinjuly]

And yet, without direct revelation from G-d in some sort of written form, we would all just be wandering around like chickens with our heads cut off.

I see where you're coming from and I understand it truly. However, I can't say that I agree with that mentality any longer. I used to believe that way.

And since you brought up Pharisees and Saduccess, I will go ahead and assume that you have preconceived notions that Judaims was a religion of works. If this is correct, then let me go ahead and present to you the factual statement: that belief is completely incorrect.

My belief (and yes, it is a belief) is that G-d made Himself known to the fathers of Judaism. I further take my belief to the point that I do not believe that Y'shua (Jesus) came to start a new religion. Therefore, in staying within the OP, I have already stated that I believe Judaism is the right religion. Y'shua came for a number of reasons, but one major one was to provide clarification, understanding and correction on the Torah.

Anyways... that's something we can get into later.

The problem with your assertion of relationship over religion is the fact that relationships can be quirky; whereas, a religion, such as Judaism, has guidelines and such to try to keep such quirks from becoming rampant.

m.d.
As you said, It is a difference of perspective...which brings me to another question. Why are some people so afraid to spell GOD on this forum? Muffler you are the second or third person that I've seen do the whole G-d thing. At a glance it looks like you are trying to abbreviate a curse word.

[fiveinjuly]

And I was not trying to avaid respondig to your questions and post in my last post, I just do not care to go into all of this stuff because I don't really think that it is important.

[muffler dragon]

As you said, It is a difference of perspective...which brings me to another question. Why are some people so afraid to spell GOD on this forum? Muffler you are the second or third person that I've seen do the whole G-d thing. At a glance it looks like you are trying to abbreviate a curse word.
This will "spell" it out for you. :D

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm

m.d.

[muffler dragon]

And I was not trying to avaid respondig to your questions and post in my last post, I just do not care to go into all of this stuff because I don't really think that it is important.
Just for clarification, which post of mine has information within it that you don't find important? 124 or 125?

m.d.

[fiveinjuly]

124

[muffler dragon]

Dear fiveinjuly:

You may take this as trite, but obviously I will not.

So, I'll make my point plain in this OP. If someone (me) says that Judaism is the right religion and tries to provide substantiation for this consideration, then don't you think that those who disagree (you) would have something to at least comment on?

To tell me that you don't find what I have written as important only underscores the blindness with which you view the situation.

Pray tell, what is so unimportant in my post that you don't want to take the time to address it? Do you feel that it is all bunk? That it is just fruitless whims of a man off his rocker? Feel free to lay it all out, you can't hurt my feelings any more than saying that you found what I had written before as being unimportant. Other than the fact that you are bound to disagree with my contention. Therefore, it can lead me into one of two conclusions:

1) You see what I have written and are simply to busy to respond.
2) You have no idea how to respond to what I have written, and thus deem it irrelevant/unimportant/impotent/...

Obviously, I prefer the latter over the former. But you're more than welcome to show me otherwise. If you feel it is important, of course.

m.d.

[Toms777]

Silence in scripture does not prohibit me to discuss it. That is part of the learning right?
But you are using an instrument (computer) to discuss doctrine which is not mentioned in the Bible. I am simply following your approach given for instrumentation.

However I am contending for the authority of silence. Our worship practices should be limited to the examples of early christians we see in the NT. All I am asking for is an example in the NT for whatever practice you are arguing for so I may examine it myself.You are setting up a false requirement. The OT establishes the acceptability of the practiced and nowhere was it changed.

[New_Wineskin]

Actually, NW, it would be a Big Mac and a Coke. Got to have a solid and a liquid to qualify. :P
Well , the special sauce on the Big Mac and the ketchup on the fries can do for the liquid . ;) Still , I would prefer a Coke with it as well . Perhaps , special Scriptural significance could be obtained if the hamburger was made from meat sacrificed to idols .

[fiveinjuly]

Dear fiveinjuly:

You may take this as trite, but obviously I will not.

So, I'll make my point plain in this OP. If someone (me) says that Judaism is the right religion and tries to provide substantiation for this consideration, then don't you think that those who disagree (you) would have something to at least comment on?

To tell me that you don't find what I have written as important only underscores the blindness with which you view the situation.

Pray tell, what is so unimportant in my post that you don't want to take the time to address it? Do you feel that it is all bunk? That it is just fruitless whims of a man off his rocker? Feel free to lay it all out, you can't hurt my feelings any more than saying that you found what I had written before as being unimportant. Other than the fact that you are bound to disagree with my contention. Therefore, it can lead me into one of two conclusions:

1) You see what I have written and are simply to busy to respond.
2) You have no idea how to respond to what I have written, and thus deem it irrelevant/unimportant/impotent/...

Obviously, I prefer the latter over the former. But you're more than welcome to show me otherwise. If you feel it is important, of course.

m.d.
First of all I didn't read your post about Judaism being the right religion so I can't say wether I agree or disagree with you. What I disagree with and find unimportant is all of the details of doctrime that people wish to dwell on, like wether instrumental music is acceptable. I think that it isn't important, and it isn't worth dwelling on. It also isn't important for me to dwell on my views of "religion" because there are some who agree and people like you who obviously don't. I frankly think that it is a waste of time to spend post after post going back and forth about stuff that we're not going to change one another's minds about. Such as instruments in the church, which was at the heart of my comments.

[muffler dragon]

First of all I didn't read your post about Judaism being the right religion so I can't say wether I agree or disagree with you. What I disagree with and find unimportant is all of the details of doctrime that people wish to dwell on, like wether instrumental music is acceptable. I think that it isn't important, and it isn't worth dwelling on. It also isn't important for me to dwell on my views of "religion" because there are some who agree and people like you who obviously don't. I frankly think that it is a waste of time to spend post after post going back and forth about stuff that we're not going to change one another's minds about. Such as instruments in the church, which was at the heart of my comments.
Then why did you post in this thread in the first place? Should have never presented a word.

m.d.

[stranger]

It seems strange to me that people want to go to heaven when they die, the Bible does not suggest this and it does not come from Jesus Christ despite that many do along with the curious tradition by word of mouth [hearsay] evidence alone...

What Jesus says [in his revelation to St John] is the God comes down to [the new] earth AFTER most have been resurrected from the place of ('storage' of)the dead ['hell'] :

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

What point then going to heaven at all?

And how can one get to heaven if one is dead and not yet resurrected anyway, all christians must believe in resurrection from the dead... one is not resurrected from heaven but from 'hell' ! [even though 'hell' is hardly the place many believe it to be by word of mouth evidence only]

[Iron Lion]

They're so many different religions to choose from out there... alot of people have a hard time deciding which one is which... i personally use to be baptist, about a year and a half ago i started goin to a church of christ with my girlfriend... after about 5 or so months of going and studying i found that i truley believe that i found the right church now... but of course thats what everyone says... i want to go to heaven when i die but i really wanna know, which church is the "true" church?

My friend,

It wont matter what building and group of people you chose to worship in/with when you die. Follow the Lord with all you heart mind and soul and believe in the death and reserection of Jesus christ. It will be these things and the way you lived your life that that will get to into heaven.

[stranger]

the true church according to scripture?

Hardly a church as most would define a church these days...

the congregation of God at this time is simply those whom God predestinated to be given to Jesus Christ, those whom Jesus specifically said that he came for:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Quite understandably, most people do not know who the House of Israel, the 'lost sheep' of God are , indeed there is no particular reason that the house of Israel should know that they are the House of Israel, since UNLIKE the Jews [House of Judah] ,these were NEVER Jews , and God scattered the House of Israel amongst GENTILE nations long before Jesus the man ...

The House of Israel then are true [genetic] descendents of Jacob [Israel] , but are not Jews, and God gave them up to worshipping OTHER gods of the gentiles lond before the new testament times ... but a remnant of these 'lost' gentilised people forms the majority of the congregation of God, the Jews are only a minority, as can be seen from Jesus' own words:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Now the true Jews are descended [mostly] from the tribe of Judah together with half the tribe of Levi [OT priests] , thus the lost sheep of the House of Israel are the MAJORITY of the congregation of God, the true church of Christ, but they are scattered by God through all nations as they were by God thousands of years ago, they do not congregate any more since secular states destroyed the early christian churches [all the seven churches of Revelation are RUINS today and modern christianity is DIVIDED and thus bound to fail according to Christ himsef :

Luke 11:17 ... Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

Thus one can identify the true 'church' of God in scripture, but it is not a church that one can find, simply it is the group of 144,000 whom God has always predestinated to be His servants , those few who will act as priests of the new covenant with Israel [Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:8-13] , all originally of one nation, called by God 'Israel', but not corresponding much with the modern Israeli state because most of Israel got LOST [except to God of course], but were NEVER Jews ,only about a third of the true modern 'nation' that is God's people are Jews, most would be called 'gentiles' these days because their descent from Israel goes back well over two millenia and is lost...

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: {peculiar: or, purchased} {praises: or, virtues}

Thus perhaps we may see that the question itsef of "which church?" is rather 'misplaced 'according to the bible ... there are no mortal priests of the new covenant as yet because these are not 'ordained' by translation to the spirit [to the order of Melchisedec, not to a mortal order of priests] until the return of Jesus Christ ...

and the role of the church of God is ONLY in the NEW earth as servants of God , priests and kings in the slavation of ALL nations after resurrection of ALL who have had to die to be free at last from their sin...

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

The GOOD NEWS from Jesus Christ is thus that all are saved through him by the will of God, but not this side of death, - and only some of the 144,000 , the few who are still alive by the time of the return of Christ, can escape death for sin [the wages of sin is death], almost everyone dies and goes to 'hell', the place of the dead, the grave.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

[spreadlove4alll]

They're so many different religions to choose from out there... alot of people have a hard time deciding which one is which... i personally use to be baptist, about a year and a half ago i started goin to a church of christ with my girlfriend... after about 5 or so months of going and studying i found that i truley believe that i found the right church now... but of course thats what everyone says... i want to go to heaven when i die but i really wanna know, which church is the "true" church?:wave:
Well, I just basically go by what it says in
1 John 4
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: