How do you interpret this verse?

[Dominus Fidelis]

1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse.

Thanks

[dsdumpling]

What are you asking? I really don't understand the question.

[Dominus Fidelis]

What are you asking? I really don't understand the question.

I'm asking how the Bible replaces the Church as the pillar of the truth. It is my understanding that many Protestants believe the Bible is THE authority and THE source of truth.

So I opened my Bible and read this verse...which says the Church is the pillar of the truth, not the Bible.

So I am curious if your Bibles read the same way and if so, what do you make of it?

[HiredGoon]

The Bible does not replace the Church in this verse.

The source of truth, and the pillar and support of the truth are two different things.

[dsdumpling]

As Christians we should be good stewards of Christ and how he taught us to treat people. Instead of instigating trouble, why not be a good steward of Christ. I for one would never convert to Catholicism by how most Catholics treat Protestants. If this is what Catholics want, maybe they should start treating people the way God would. And BTW, my Bible says the same thing in that verse that yours does.

[Dominus Fidelis]

As Christians we should be good stewards of Christ and how he taught us to treat people. Instead of instigating trouble, why not be a good steward of Christ. I for one would never convert to Catholicism by how most Catholics treat Protestants. If this is what Catholics want, maybe they should start treating people the way God would. And BTW, my Bible says the same thing in that verse that yours does.

I'm not trying to instigate trouble. I just want your thoughts on it and I won't be debating here, obviously. I just want to know what this verse means to you, thats all.

[Dominus Fidelis]

The Bible does not replace the Church in this verse.

The source of truth, and the pillar and support of the truth are two different things.

Thanks for your thoughts. :) I agree.

[ChiRho]

Our Pillar and Strength is Christ.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Blindfaith]

I always thought that "we", the entire body of believers were the Church - not a specific building or denomination.

[ChrisB]

1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse.

Thanks

You're taking too narrow a view of the meaning of the word "Church". The Church consists of God's people, not an organisation holding authority over people, telling them what to do in contradiction to the revealed word of God in scripture.

[countrymousenc]

Okay, well, I have a question regarding this topic. If it is not okay for the Church to interpret the Scriptures, then what makes it okay in the eyes of some individuals to hold up their own interpretations as the truth for everyone? (not debating, since I have changed my faith icon; I'm interested in the responses.)

[Dominus Fidelis]

I always thought that "we", the entire body of believers were the Church - not a specific building or denomination.

From my opening post:

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse.

Is it your opinion that "we" all are the pillar of the truth? And not the Bible?

[II Paradox II]

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse. To be honest, I think that's the wrong approach to the verse entirely. Reading the verse in it's context doesn't seem to place the emphasis on authority, but moral responsibilty leading to public justification of the mission and truth the church teaches. Allow me to demonstrate...

1) If you look at all Chapter 3, it is the lead in to the conclusion exhibited in 3:15, which then goes on to talk shortly of the commonly confessed truth and those who fall away.

2) Chapter 3 is largely an exhortation of how the leaders and members are to behave, both in private and in public life such that the truth will not be slandered by their actions.

3) The crown of chapter three comes in vs. 15 where Paul states that he wrote this letter in case he is delayed so that the people will know how they should conduct themsleves in the church...

4) ...And here is where he makes his statement about the "the pillar and foundation of the truth". In this explicitly "moral* context the emphasis is on the morality and uprightness of the people not damaging the witness of the "public" church by ungodly living. By living an ungodly life Christians will undermine the agent of God's revelation in this world because people will see our hypocrisy. The church is to adorn and grace the truth through it's obedience to Christ's commands, thus allowing it to be the bulwark of the truth it proclaims by it's evidence that that truth transforms...

5) In that context, it seems to me that reading this verse in an "authority" context is just prooftexting without paying attention to the broader point that is being made. Paul's point isn't that there are two options for infallible authority, the scripture and church (and guess which one wins). Paul's point is that the actions of church as a body will affectthe credibility of it's message.

ken

[eldermike]

Paul's point is that the actions of church as a body will affectthe credibility of it's message.

I agree.

It's actually very simple. If a search for the Truth begins with a man holding a bible and reading this scripture, He is the literal pillar, holding the truth. The Truth will remain true if the pillar fails but it will be much less effective in it's intended purpose. Praise God!, there are many pillars but only one Truth:
Heb3:6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.

[P_G]

Blessings DoF

I can't wait to see what your Avatar is next week!

The Pillar and The Foundation of Truth

The problem Paul was presented with by Timothy was one that is faced in many churches today. That of rebellion and misbehavior by those in posistions of authority. People who have accepted a posistion in the public eye as "a man of God".

Similar to today that many churches have seen horrific scandals and thus been discredited so was the church Ephesus where Timothy was the overseer (bishop)

So Paul writes and basically gives some outlines for those who would serve in the house of God and those who would call themselves part of the house of God. So as to no longer bring reproach to the name of Y'shua.

My guess is that folks in OBOB would really like it if some of the memebers of the Clergy would remind themselves of these rules before they act. Just as I know that the evangelical church would wish that some of our big names would do so like wise.

So then the behavior and the witness of the local church and the church in general was and does testify to the truth of the gospel. It should always be a moral compass for the world a pillar of truth and a foundation upon which people can rest with out fear of it being shaken. (Anyone remember the hymn "The Church How Firm a Foundation"?)

There is no inherent truth in the church that does not come from scripture or from the Lord. What is truth? Y'shua is truth! IN HIM WAS FOUND NO LIE. We have no righteousness apart from God and no truth apart from Y'shua. The form that this truth comes to us in is the written record or what we now refer to as the Bible.

Thank you for an interesting Question

Many blessings

Much Love

Pastor George :wave:

[rnmomof7]

1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse.

Thanks

From Gill

"..the pillar and ground of the truth; which holds forth the truth to be seen and read of all, as pillars that bear inscriptions; and which supports and maintains truth, as every true church of Christ does so long as it remains so; though truth is the pillar and ground of the church;

for if once truth is gone, a church is no more so: rather therefore Timothy himself is here designed; and the sense is, that what was written to him was with this view, that he might the better know how to conduct himself in the church of God, as a pillar and ground of truth, to hold it forth and to secure it: ministers of the Gospel are called pillars, Galatians 2:9 and that with greater propriety than the church itself, which is before called an house: though it may be best of all to understand it of Christ as incarnate, the great mystery of godliness;
who as he is the ground and foundation of the church, and all believers, so he is the foundation of all true doctrine; and particularly the doctrine of his person, as truly God and truly man, is the pillar and ground which supports all other truths, and without which they fall to the ground:

and so this clause may be read in connection with the following words, thus; "the pillar and ground of the truth, and without controversy, is the great mystery of godliness, &c." And this way of speaking is used by the Jews, both of persons and things; so Zebulun is said {c} to be hrwth dwme, "the pillar of the law"; and it is said {d} of "the great sanhedrim in Jerusalem, they are the root of the oral law; and they are harwhh ydwme, "the pillars of doctrine"; and from them go forth the statutes and judgments unto Israel;" and the same is said of things as of persons. Maimonides says {e}, "the foundation of foundations and the pillar of wisdom is to know that there is a first Being, that gives being to all beings;" and R. Sangari, another of their writers, says, {f} "there are two things which are hrwth ydwme, "the pillars of the law"; the one is, that the law is from God; the other is, that it is received with a faithful (or sincere) heart, from the congregation:" to which may be added, that it is said {g} that "the mystery of faith is "amwyqw arqe, "the root and ground" of the world";" all which may serve to illustrate this passage.

[rnmomof7]

How do you interpret this ?

2 Tim3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];



2Ti 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.



2Ti 3:16
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


2Ti 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


It seems like Paul has a breath of instruction for timothy

[GreenEyedLady]

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.


Are you asking where in scriptures does it say that the bible is the final authority and NOT the church? Please reply and let me know.
Thanks.

[Jesus My Wisdom]

1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse.

Thanks

I would also like to know when people decided they were to follow the Bible and its ideas.

I thought we were supposed to follow Jesus who lives in us.

When did the Bible replace Jesus? And when did the Word of God become the Bible instead of Jesus?

JMW

[Col]

1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse.

Thanks
I see you appear to be quite confused with semantics, I humbly submit this very simple and generalised explaination, in order that it may help your understanding and draw you closer to God. Taking into account however, that no one has all the answers, only God, and so any submission by mere man are subject to error.
I believe it is pretty obvious, at the time of writing there wasn't a Bible per sa, however the contents of the Bible (yet to be published of course) were being discussed and shared amongst believers in Christian gatherings or as they became know churches (I.E Church = people, not an institution), simply because at the time, all knowledge was perdominantly passed on verbally. Therefore as the written word became more prolific and later printing and the printing press together with greater literacy, it was possible for Christians to read the Bible themselves, (albeit at times dangerous for their health to dare to in some periods of history), and learn about God, Christ and his message which was the "pillar or truth". Christ's message is the pillar of truth not Religious institutions which are prone to man's corruption, even today.
So with the advent of the Bible it was then possible to refer to the Bible as the "pillar of truth", as Christ's teaching was now documented for all, where as previously the "pillar of truth" was referred to by where you could hear it, (IE, within a gathering of believers)
I think you are are confusing Church - Christs followers with Church - a religious institution, again semantics.
Whether they are held in large imposing buildings with much pios pagentry, or in a suburban lounge room with a handful of followers, any "church" gathering is valid when its foundation is the inspired word of God, the Bible, which is, "the pillar of truth".
True faith is based on Christ, not on Christians, it is liberating and sets you free!

Bless Ya
Col :) <><

[JOYfulbeliever]

I would also like to know when people decided they were to follow the Bible and its ideas.

I thought we were supposed to follow Jesus who lives in us.

When did the Bible replace Jesus? And when did the Word of God become the Bible instead of Jesus?

JMW
:scratch:

The Bible is God's Written Word to us. How is that replacing Jesus?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic with this question, but you said that you thought we were supposed to follow Jesus who lives in us...can I ask how Jesus lives in us without His Word? How would we have known about Him? How would we know of His life, death, resurrection? How would we know of His commands that He has given us? How would we know of His promises? Especially since none of us have met Jesus face-to-face yet.

[rnmomof7]

I would also like to know when people decided they were to follow the Bible and its ideas.

I thought we were supposed to follow Jesus who lives in us.

When did the Bible replace Jesus? And when did the Word of God become the Bible instead of Jesus?

JMW


What do you think is in the bible?
Who do you think was it's author ?

What if everyone has a different 'jesus' in them ...how do you determine which one is right ?

[Jamie70]

PM the Reformationist. He's good at interpreting versus :)

[Obadiah891]

1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "
"which is the church of the living God" refers to the household. its not a building. The household of people are the Church.

I am looking at the grammer. The words inbetween the commas are additional information that is added when people write sentences so you could read it like this to take away confusion.

how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God the pillar and support of the truth. What I see is that the Pillar and support of the truth refers to God

[Adoniram]

How do you interpret this verse?


1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

I came across this thread several days ago and was pondering the question posed. My initial thought was that the 'Bible' did not replace the 'Church' as the pillar of truth, the Bible has always been the pillar of truth. By that I mean the source of truth. Then I thought that perhaps what was meant was, when did the Church replace the Bible as the pillar of truth. Finally, I came to the point of where I thought the verse was not implying either of those statements, but rather, refered to the conduct of believers, period. Meaning that all believers should strive for the qualities Paul was teaching were essential for bishops and deacons in the preceding verses.

An excellent, IMO, commentary on the verse is found in "Believer's Bible Commentary" by William MacDonald, Thomas Nelson Publishers. MacDonald echoes what I was thinking but does a much better job than I could of putting it into words so I will quote from it here.

Regarding Conduct in the Church

1 Tim. 3:14
The apostle [Paul] had written the preceding with the hope of seeing Timothy soon. These things, however, might refer not only to what precedes but also to what follows.

3:15
Paul recognized the possibility of being delayed, or even of his not getting to Ephesus at all. Actually, we do not know whether he ever was able to rejoin Timothy in Ephesus. And so if he tarried long, he wanted Timothy to know how believers ought to conduct themselves in the house of God.

In the preceding verses, Paul has been describing how bishops, deacons, and their wives ought to behave. Now he explains how Christians in general should behave in the house of God.

The house of God is here defined as the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. In the OT, God dwelt in the tabernacle and temple, but in the NT, He dwells in the church. It is spoken of as the church of the living God, and this contrasts it to a temple in which there are lifeless idols.

The church is spoken of as the pillar and ground of the truth. A pillar was not only used to support a structure, but oftentimes a pillar was set up in a public marketplace and notices were posted on it. It was thus a proclaimer. The church is the unit on earth which God has chosen to proclaim and display His truth. It is also the ground of the truth. Here ground carries the thought of foundation or supporting structure. This pictures the church as that which is entrusted with the defense and support of the truth of God.

Initially, it may appear to some that MacDonald is refering to God dwelling in the "church building," but reading on, I think he indeed means that God is dwelling in the hearts and minds of the body of believers, the true Church.

Anyway, I thought that he put forth a good interpretation of the passage.

[puriteen18]

1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse.

ThanksThe Bible (God's truth revealed as written Word) must be interpreted in light of the Church's (the people of God) Apostolic and orthodox tradition.

[TheScottsMen]

1 Timothy 3:15

"but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. "

Specifically, how and when did 'Bible' replace 'Church' as the pillar of the truth?

Note: I'm not asking which Church is the pillar of the truth, but rather how the Bible replaces 'Church' in this verse.

Thanks
Interpret it to read the Church of the New Testament. The universal church of all believers in Jesus Christ. From those that live in China to those that live in States to everywhere. Its good you do not ask "what church" is the pillar of truth because "a" church is part of the whole church of believers. It's not by creed or by church name, but by ones right relationship with the risen Lord.

[sobresaliente]

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:15

I do realize what the individual who started this thread is getting at. She is a Roman Catholic, many of them try to use this verse to prove that their church has apostolic authority, infallible in interpretation of scriptures, and on it goes...

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6

Jesus Christ is the truth. He cannot stop being truth, he is God's son, he lives forever. We, as believers, are the Church, the Kingdom of God on earth, for Christ reigns in our hearts as King, Lord, and Master. Simply stated, we are to behave as followers of Christ and be the living witness of the Gospel proclaiming the truth to all in word and deed.

When Jesus Christ ascended into heaven to be with the Father the church did not 'become' the truth and the sole interpreter of it. With each new believer new ideas come along, but the Bible alone is our measuring stick. There will always be heresy's and hypocrites, but we have the Bible to keep us from these abominations, and the Spirit beareth witness.We are witnesses of the truth found in Christ Jesus. We are to uphold Jesus and glorify Him as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.:bow:

If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.:holy:
1 Peter 4:4

May God give us the humble spirit so that his son Jesus Christ may be glorified,
Sobresaliente