Canon Question

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Of the Quinisext Council, the 11th Canon is as follows:

"Let no one enrolled in the sacerdotal list, or any layman, eat the unleavened wafers manufactured by the Jews, or in any way become familiar with the Jews or call them in case of sickness, or take any medicines from them, or even bathe with them in public bathing beaches or bathhouses. If anyone should attempt to do this, in case he is a clergyman, let him be deposed from office; or, in case he is a layman, let him be excommunicated."

Could someone explain this to me?

[Moros]

Part of that is the Orthodox Church has always used leavened bread in the Eucharist, as opposed to the Romans and Jews using unleavened. As for the other stuff, consider the context of the times. Diversity and tolerance are fairly new additions to the human experience.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

More specifically, I do not understand the "in any way become familiar with the Jews" part.

[Moros]

Look at the context. 'Familiar' means friendly, associated with, or adopting the practices of.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok, so it does not mean Orthodox have to stay away from Jews or not befriend them?

[Moros]

Probably back in the day it did. But they were also concerned about Christians adopting Jewish practices, such as Iconoclasm. There are several other canons against Judaizing.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So it no longer applies?

[Moros]

Well, the Orthodox Church still uses leavened bread in the Eucharist, as opposed to unleavened wafers. That part applies. In the age of multiculturalism, it's almost shocking if someone doesn't have any friends of a different religion or whatever.

And if the part about not taking any medicine from Jews applied, we'd all be screwed at the E.R.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So, that leads me to yet another question: What Canons no longer apply to us, and how can we tell?

[Moros]

Well, it's not up to us to interpret the canons (oops), and if i'm not mistaken the church has "canon lawyers" for that sort of thing. From what i hear most orthodox bookstores that carry the book of canons wont sell to a layperson. But you can find them on the internet. but, imo, your example was an obvious example of a social situation which has changed since it's authorship.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Yes, I have a copy of all the Canons from the Councils

[Happy Orthodox]

I think it is better to ask an Orthodox priest to get the real position of Orthodox Church regarding relations with Jews. But I surely heard that Orthodoxy always opposed anticemitism (I am just studying the history of Jewish people in Russia) and called for compassion and love towards all people. After all, the pillars of the Church were Jews -- the Apostles, Virgin Mary, finally, Jesus Christ. Jewish nation is sertainly blessed from the beginning, chosen by God, and we should take that into concideration. But I am not sure about being in close relationships with Jews (though, Jews do not socialize with people of other nations, unless it is necessary), and accepting medicine from them. I even never heard of this that Orthodox clergy would warn thier flock not to go to Jews for help. And the Russian history doesn't say that the Church was opposing the decision of the government to allow Jews to go to medical schools in the end of XIX century. So it is highly likely that the canon has no power now. There are cases when canons are not accepted as valid, but I am not sure why and which ones.

[Marjorie]

Bizzlebin,

Shalom, erev tov. :)

The canons often have to do with specific situations at different times. They're not infallible as applied to every situation. They have to be interpreted by the Church, and I would go as far as to say can contain things that simply are mistakes.

I come from a Jewish family and if I were convinced that the Orthodox Church were not open to the Jewish people or were truly anti-semitic in its roots (and trust me misconceptions of this were a big problem for me when coming to Orthodoxy), I would not be Orthodox.

I celebrate Shabbat dinner with my family every week.

Kol tuv! (V'lihitraot???)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok, thank you for the answers. Yet another question: While icons are certainly permitted, are they required?

[Marjorie]

Glory to Jesus Christ, Bizzlebin!

Well it depends on what you mean by required... are they in every Orthodox church? Yes, because it is our belief that they are the best expression of our incarnational faith. However, we don't believe that people who don't use icons are not saved, or something.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Are the Corinthian hairstyle and head coverings observed?

[Marjorie]

They're not required in every parish, but if you go to the Old World (i.e. not in America) Orthodox churches women all basically wear headcoverings. Not very many women wear them in my parish (except for some older women), but in one parish I visited in Chicago almost everyone had one. Many Orthodox churches will supply headcoverings for women visitors.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok. Are Bishops still forbidden to be in the army and serve in high offices?

[Marjorie]

There was a time when all Orthodox Christians stayed out of the army, and also a time when those who were in the army were expected to undergo a penance for shedding blood, even if it were necessary to go.

-- There are many pious opinions on this in Orthodoxy, don't take my own as the dogma--

It is my understanding that Orthodox clergy were never involved in war in the way that the Western Crusaders drafted priests, etc. I don't have any citations for that; I read an article on it in the Antiochian Word, I think, and can't find the link. :(

There are saints who were involved in war but I don't think any were bishops.

I've also never heard of a bishop running for office; I don't know if it's strictly forbidden though.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok, thanks. I'm trying to get with a priest, but apparantly he does not read his e-mail often :P I'm probably going to just run into Liturgy

[Marjorie]

Ok, thanks. I'm trying to get with a priest, but apparantly he does not read his e-mail often :P I'm probably going to just run into LiturgyThat's wonderful... haha my priest doesn't even HAVE e-mail. Well if your church is like most churches you'll be a nice surprise and they'll be all over you at coffee hour. :D

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

I heard recently that those who are ordained are forbidden to hold political positions still. Anybody who has killed a man, even if it is an accident, is generally not allowed to serve as a priest.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

My question is, if I go into Liturgy, I know not to take communion, but do I leave when they say "Cateuchmen come forward"? What do I do?

[Marjorie]

Hmm, "catechumens come forward"? Sometimes "catechumens depart" is said-- just ignore that. You don't really have to leave. :) There's nothing you really have to know to do, though you should be prepared for some things (have you seen the Frederica "12 Things I Wish I'd Known" piece?) Just observe and if someone offers you antidoron (a little piece of bread, not the Eucharist), take it; it is a symbol of fellowship. :)

IN IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

Though if you're at a strict monastic community which expects all the non-Orthodox to depart for the Liturgy of the Faithful [odds are low, and you will probably know if the parish you visit fits that description], you should depart, but otherwise, stick around.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok. Should I go early to talk with the priest (before/during the morning prayer) or after Liturgy?

[gzt]

Before the Liturgy, the priest is probably doing the proskomedia [preparation of the gifts], so wait until afterwards. If the parish does matins [ie, if they don't do vigil on Saturday evening], the priest may be free for a moment, but you shouldn't expect to be able to talk to him. After the Liturgy, he's probably free eventually.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

They do have Vespers, so I will wait until after Liturgy! Thanks!

[ExOrienteLux]

It's not if they have Vespers, but if they have Vigil. They're two slightly different things. Vigil is Vespers + Matins on Saturday night. Vespers is just the Vespers service by itself on Saturday night, which means that they'll be having Matins on Sunday morning most likely.

I still would wait till coffee hour to talk to the Priest, though. And be sure to tell us about your experience when you get back from Liturgy!

+IC XC NIKA+
Josh.

[Rilian]

So, that leads me to yet another question: What Canons no longer apply to us, and how can we tell?

Wikipedia has an article on canon law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law) where it says the following

The Orthodox Christian tradition is generally much less legalistic, and treats many of the canons more as guidelines than as absolute laws, adjusting them to cultural and other local circumstances. Some Orthodox canon scholars point out that, had the Ecumenical Councils (which deliberated in Greek) meant for the canons to be used as laws, they would have called them nomoi/νομοι (laws) rather than kanones/κανονες (standards).

I think it is the church that gives life to the canons, not the reverse. Interesting post by the way, I had never even heard of this council.

[Suzannah]

I heard recently that those who are ordained are forbidden to hold political positions still. Anybody who has killed a man, even if it is an accident, is generally not allowed to serve as a priest.
Interesting about the political postion, but not surprising. My understanding of the latter part, is that it also applies to animals.

[vanshan]

About the shedding of blood--I have heard some priests do not drive just to avoid having an accident and killing someone. It's taken seriously.

[Marjorie]

Hmm, although I fear that refusing priesthood to the repentant murderer may be too much. St. Moses the Ethiopian was a murderer-turned-priest, no?

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So did the early church take these as strict law, or were they more loose as Orthodoxy is today?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

As an addition to the above question, do the marriage rules and whatnot in the canons still apply?

[Oblio]

As an addition to the above question, do the marriage rules and whatnot in the canons still apply?

To be married within the Orthodox Church one must at a minimum (besides being Orthodox) have a spouse that is a Christian baptised in the name of the Holy Trinity.

[gzt]

What do you mean about marriage rules? You mean, like, not being married on a Saturday? Or what Oblio said? Generally, the answer to these sorts of questions is, "If it's not important, probably not."

[CyberSponge]

Hmm, although I fear that refusing priesthood to the repentant murderer may be too much. St. Moses the Ethiopian was a murderer-turned-priest, no?

In IC XC,
Marjorie
he was a monk. I don't think he was a priest.

[gzt]

He was ordained priest according the the hagiographies I've seen. Perhaps the guideline is more recent?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Specifically marriage of clergymen (bishops)

[gzt]

Bishops: not married, generally drawn from the monastic ranks or tonsured monk when ordained bishop. They can be widowers.
Priests and deacons: must be married before ordination if they are to be married. Non-monastic clergy are generally expected to be married. Once ordained, one cannot marry.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok. First off, why these marriage rules? Second, do priest often get "promoted" to bishop?

[ufonium2]

Ok. First off, why these marriage rules? Second, do priest often get "promoted" to bishop?
I believe it's to make sure you don't have priests scoping their flocks for a prospective girlfriend. Strictly speaking, you don't have to be married to be ordained, there are a few hieromonks who are celibate priests, but once you are ordained you are stuck in whichever life situation you have chosen. So, priests can't get married, but married men can be priests. See what I'm saying?

Bishops are monks, and can be widowers, but are definitely single celibate men. So, to answer your question, bishops come from the monastic ranks. Some of them may have been married priests in the past, but became monks after they were widowed and then later became bishop.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Do monk priests get promoted to bishop?

[Suzannah]

Do monk priests get promoted to bishop?

Yes, they can.

[Xpycoctomos]

I could be wrong but I am almost positive that there are Bishops who are not monks (although they are indeed single and celibate). I believe that some of the Bishops under the American Antiochian Church are among these. This why the Antiochian mission in America is sometimes criticized by other Orhtodox because it *seemingly* makes no effort to bring a monastic presence into it's jurisdiction of Orthodoxy in America (as there are Greek and Slavic monasteries, but no antiochian one in North America), and this is even true among their Bishops (while you would be hard-pressed to find a non-monastic bishop in the Greek or Slavic Churches in the States).

By the way, I'm not posting this to put down the Antiochian Church in America. They have played (and continue to play) an instrumental and positive role in setting a foundation for Orthodoxy in America. But I do see the lack of a Monastic presence on their part a serious weakness which I can only assume is or will soon be addressed by it's faithful and hierarchy. Feel free to correct me on any of this.

God bless!

John

[Rilian]

But I do see the lack of a Monastic presence on their part a serious weakness which I can only assume is or will soon be addressed by it's faithful and hierarchy. Feel free to correct me on any of this.

No it's true, and it bugs me. There are no Antiochian monasteries that I know of here in the states (I think there might be one small skete or a few isolated monastics here and there). I asked Father about this, and he didn't seem to think it would be a problem, but I don't see how it won't be for a number of reasons. I think in the past most of the bishops came from zee alt kountry, where there is a ready supply of monastics.

[gzt]

Perhaps they intend to absorb all of their churches into one American Orthodox Church soon and therefore don't need specifically Antiochian monasteries?

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So do the different Orthodox churches not cooperate or something? I don't understand

[gzt]

In America, they cooperate, but they have not yet united into one American Orthodox Church. Everybody agrees that the eventual goal should be one united autocephalic American Orthodox Church, but it takes a while to get these things to work out. The Antiochians are slowly working toward it in their own way. The Antiochian archdiocese in America [I believe that's what it's called] recently got autonomy from the church in Damascus, which I've usually seen described as an important step towards unity in America. Plodding ever so slowly towards the goal, you know.

[Xpycoctomos]

Bizzlebin,

Just to clarify, the unity we are seeking is administrative and this "disunity" is only a result of so many different cultures setting up their own Orthodox CHurches under the old country (i.e. whatever country they came from. This disunity is not in any doctrinal. It is only a question of how to unify as one Church meaning us having the same bishop., while still being sensitive to people's cultural backgrounds. Basically, it's tricky politics. But we do have complete communal and doctrinal unity and tomorrow I could go to a Greek, Antiochian, Serbian, Romanian, OCA, Russia etc... church of my choosing without any problem. Example: I was chrismated under the OCA, but now, for convenience sake, I go to a Russian Church.

John

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok, one of my main questions is still the celibacy of priests and bishops. Why is this?

[Marjorie]

Ok, one of my main questions is still the celibacy of priests and bishops. Why is this?Priests do not have to be celibate. However, if priests are to be married they must marry before their ordination. This is, as someone else said, partially so they won't view female members of their parish as potential girlfriends.

Bishops are celibate in general because they are taken from the monastic ranks. This has been discussed more in this thread...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

What if a bishop is married before ordination?

[gzt]

They don't choose married men to be bishops.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

They don't choose married men to be bishops.
Why?

[ufonium2]

Ok, one of my main questions is still the celibacy of priests and bishops. Why is this?
The overwhelming majority of our priests are not celibate. They are married and have (generally pretty large) families.

Our bishops are celibate because they have way too much to do and can't devote themselves to both their diocese and a family without shortchanging someone. They weren't celibate in the first century because at that point the term "bishop" was used to refer to a man who administered the Eucharist and was the spiritual father to the Christians in one city, all of whom could fit in one church at the time. As Christianity grew, it became impossible for one man to personally administer the Eucharist to and spiritually guide thousands of people, so he built more churches and gave his assistants (priests) some level of pastoral authority over them. The bishop then served at the main church in his area while overseeing the priests at all the other churches in his area. That's how it is today.

So, the guy who serves one parish is still allowed (and encouraged) to have a family, just as he was in the first century. The guy who is in charge of tens of thousands of people spread over thousands of square miles, a position for which there was no need in the early Church, is not.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

The overwhelming majority of our priests are not celibate. They are married and have (generally pretty large) families.

Our bishops are celibate because they have way too much to do and can't devote themselves to both their diocese and a family without shortchanging someone. They weren't celibate in the first century because at that point the term "bishop" was used to refer to a man who administered the Eucharist and was the spiritual father to the Christians in one city, all of whom could fit in one church at the time. As Christianity grew, it became impossible for one man to personally administer the Eucharist to and spiritually guide thousands of people, so he built more churches and gave his assistants (priests) some level of pastoral authority over them. The bishop then served at the main church in his area while overseeing the priests at all the other churches in his area. That's how it is today.

So, the guy who serves one parish is still allowed (and encouraged) to have a family, just as he was in the first century. The guy who is in charge of tens of thousands of people spread over thousands of square miles, a position for which there was no need in the early Church, is not.
Ah, ok! That makes sense. Thanks!

[Marjorie]

Great explanation ufonium!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Oblio]

Why?


Another reason aside from the wonderful explanations above is (as mentioned before) that Bishops are selected from the monastic ranks. Monks are those who above all pray for the Church and her faithful and dedicate their entire lives to God. Monastics are nearly always unmarried and always chaste. Those who first of all have this vocation, and then have the gift of pastoral oversight and leadership fit the Biblical model of a Bishop.

[Vasya Davidovich]

Hmm, although I fear that refusing priesthood to the repentant murderer may be too much. St. Moses the Ethiopian was a murderer-turned-priest, no?

In IC XC,
Marjorie
As far as I know, St.Moses never took clerical orders. He lived as a monk, which usually meant as a lay-person.
-Vasya.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

More Questions!

What is the difference between the OCA and the Greek Orthodox? Both exist where I live, and I'm not sure which one to go to. I thought I heard something about one of the churches causing division over America or something along those lines. Can someone explain?

[ExOrienteLux]

What is the difference between the OCA and the Greek Orthodox? Both exist where I live, and I'm not sure which one to go to. I thought I heard something about one of the churches causing division over America or something along those lines. Can someone explain?
The main difference is just one of jurisdiction. Both the Orthodox Church in America and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North America are canonical Orthodox churches with legitimate sacraments and Orders.

The biggest difference is cultural. The OCA was once part of the Patriarchate of Moscow but was granted autocephalamy (literally 'self-headed-ness') after the Russian Revolution. As such, it has a much more Slavic feel to it in that they use the Slavic tones for chanting, you'll still hear the odd Russian word or two here and there, and sometimes (rarely, thank God!) you'll see 19th-cent-Russian-style icons (ie, the ones that look like horrible oil paintngs instead of actual icons).

The Greek Church is, obviously, Greek. It's the Archdiocese in North America that's under the headship of H.A.H. Ecumenical Patriarch BARTHLOMEW II. It's Greek. What can I say? :P :)

Personally, if I were an inquirer going to an Orthodox Church for the first time, I would recommend that you go to the OCA church. They'll probably make you feel a bit more welcome. It may just be my experience, but in a lot of the Greek parishes that I've gone to, when they found out that my last name doesn't end in -opoulos or some such thing, they had a disturbing tendency to suddenly become cold towards me.

Just my two kopecks' worth, though.

[Oblio]

What is the difference between the OCA and the Greek Orthodox?


The food :yum:

... and the height of the members ^_^

[ExOrienteLux]

The food :yum:

... and the height of the members ^_^
:D ROFLMBO!

[Vasya Davidovich]

Personally, if I were an inquirer going to an Orthodox Church for the first time, I would recommend that you go to the OCA church. They'll probably make you feel a bit more welcome. It may just be my experience, but in a lot of the Greek parishes that I've gone to, when they found out that my last name doesn't end in -opoulos or some such thing, they had a disturbing tendency to suddenly become cold towards me.

Just my two kopecks' worth, though.
Hi, Josh.
Did you really find it that cold? That is unfortunate. In my city, I was welcomed fairly warmly, but my disliking for Tzatziki prevented me from staying (lol). Seriously, though, I think I recommend the OCA as well, although for different reasons.

First, they have a large convert population, so know how to deal with the questions, concerns, and issues posed by converts. Second, the cultural heritage becomes quite broad, so you have an equal-opportunity approach to World Orthodoxy. This is, by the way, oodles of fun. Third, you will be hearing English during the Divine Liturgy - this is by no means guaranteed in many national jurisdictions (like Greek, or Ukrainian). It all depends on how recent the most recent immigrants from that cultural group are. In my city, Greek and Arabic are used in the Greek and Antiochian churches, and English in the OCA and Ukrainian parishes. So, go figure.

-Vasya.

[Orthosdoxa]

I too recommend the OCA, because the likelihood is higher that there will be a higher number of converts there (who therefore might have more background into where you're coming from) and that they'll speak English during the service as well.

I've only attended one Greek service and was welcomed with open arms, though. I wasn't Orthodox yet and looked a little unsure of myself. It was the part of Matins where they kiss the Gospel Book and this old lady, I'll never forget it, grabbed my arm and said in a thick accent, "You cahm weeth me, we go kees zee Hoh-ly Screeptures!" and practically dragged me down the aisle. :D I loved it. At least I wasn't unsure of what to do next.

[Vasya Davidovich]

I too recommend the OCA, because the likelihood is higher that there will be a higher number of converts there (who therefore might have more background into where you're coming from) and that they'll speak English during the service as well.

I've only attended one Greek service and was welcomed with open arms, though. I wasn't Orthodox yet and looked a little unsure of myself. It was the part of Matins where they kiss the Gospel Book and this old lady, I'll never forget it, grabbed my arm and said in a thick accent, "You cahm weeth me, we go kees zee Hoh-ly Screeptures!" and practically dragged me down the aisle. :D I loved it. At least I wasn't unsure of what to do next.
LOL.
Quite humourous. Reminds me of my first time in an Orthodox Church. I had been invited by a close friend who was a catechumen and had his share of zeal. He told me to do exactly what he did and then marched me down to venerate the icons. In some ways, I became Orthodox that day. ... But I admired his style. No apologies, no attempt to explain.
-Vasya.

[countrymousenc]

The OCA was once part of the Patriarchate of Moscow but was granted autocephalamy (literally 'self-headed-ness') after the Russian Revolution. As such, it has a much more Slavic feel to it in that they use the Slavic tones for chanting, ...

We use Byzantine and Greek tones also, just not quite as much. :)

[ExOrienteLux]

We use Byzantine and Greek tones also, just not quite as much. :)
I stand (er, sit at a desk) corrected. And I'm glad a lot of you guys have had good experiences with Greeks. I wish I had.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

And then the questions get even weirder...

What is the Orthodox view on killing? In self defense? Of animals? Of vermin?

[Xpycoctomos]

Canon 142 of the 9th eccumenical council states that it is meet and right that once should kill vermin at all times except for Holy Days, but killing animals is expressly prohibited unless it is done in self defense or for food.


uhh.... maybe not... lol ;)

[countrymousenc]

And then the questions get even weirder...

What is the Orthodox view on killing? In self defense? Of animals? Of vermin?

Best I can answer is that all unecessary killing is sin. I'm pretty sure that ending a human life for any reason, even in self-defense, has to be confessed as sin. Not ridding your home of vermin that carry diseases might also be sinful. Beyond that, I'd have to ask a priest.

[Orthosdoxa]

If an Orthodox soldier kills someone in war, he must go through a period of penance and excommunication when he gets back home. It is not punishment, it is for the good of his soul, that he may again safely receive the Holy Mysteries.

LK

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Ok! I made it to my first Orthodox Church Liturgy today. It went well, and I was able to meet a lot of the members, as well as the priest. I think I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy :)

[Marjorie]

Ok! I made it to my first Orthodox Church Liturgy today. It went well, and I was able to meet a lot of the members, as well as the priest. I think I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy :)Glory to God in the highest!

May He grant you many, many years!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

Cool. Why?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Ok! I made it to my first Orthodox Church Liturgy today. It went well, and I was able to meet a lot of the members, as well as the priest. I think I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy :)
:clap: I'm glad you had a good experience! This is wonderful news, but I just want to caution you that becoming Orthodox is not a simple or easy process. I recommend (for what my recommendations are worth ;) ) that you continue to go to services and talk to the priest about how you're feeling. He will give you guidance and may recommend some reading. Orthodox priests generally don't get in a hurry where conversion is concerned, simply because they like to take their time and make sure you know what you're getting into.:thumbsup:

[Orthosdoxa]

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do lots of reading, go to lots of services, and glory to God!!!! :clap:

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

:clap: I'm glad you had a good experience! This is wonderful news, but I just want to caution you that becoming Orthodox is not a simple or easy process. I recommend (for what my recommendations are worth ;) ) that you continue to go to services and talk to the priest about how you're feeling. He will give you guidance and may recommend some reading. Orthodox priests generally don't get in a hurry where conversion is concerned, simply because they like to take their time and make sure you know what you're getting into.:thumbsup:
Indeed. It will take a great amount of prayer, but with God, I can do it. I'm going to finish my readings on the Canons, but in talking with some of the members, it seems as though I have done a lot more reading than most of the members have. That should be helpful :)

Cool. Why?
Because I found nothing but truth in Orthodoxy. If it is truthful in its theology, and its worship, it must be the truth. It is the true Church.

[Oblio]

If it is truthful in its theology, and its worship, it must be the truth. It is the true Church.


:)

Welcome to the Narrow Way, may God guide you safely home :pray:


But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
(John 4:23-24 KJV)

[ExOrienteLux]

Ok! I made it to my first Orthodox Church Liturgy today. It went well, and I was able to meet a lot of the members, as well as the priest. I think I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy :)
Glory be to Jesus Christ! Glory forever!

Just be warned that, like many here have already said, it's a narrow and long road. I was an inquirer for almost an entire liturgical year before I became a catechumen. It'll still be Thanksgiving at the earliest before I'm chrismated, and it's by no means smooth sailing from then on.

But, I'll be praying for you and all my fellow catechumens, that we may be united to the Church in truth. I find it comforting to know that we've been given grace before Grace, which, if we let it work, will let us finish the race in faith.

Praise God that we're heading, as C.S. Lewis put it so well, "Further up and further in!"

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

What's the difference between an inquirer and cateuchman? Why does it take so long?

[Wiffey]

An inquirer is looking into and exploring Orthodoxy. A Catechumen has made the decision to convert to Orthodoxy and is studying with a priest to prepare to be received into the Church (by either baptism or chrismation).
Wiffey

[Wiffey]

To add: If the Catechumen has never had a valid, Trinitarian baptism (in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit), they will be Baptised & chrismated when they are received into the Church. If they were baptised, they (in most jurisdictions) will be received by Chrismation.
Wiffey

[ExOrienteLux]

What's the difference between an inquirer and cateuchman? Why does it take so long?
It takes a long time for a few reasons:

1.) There's a lot to unlearn and to learn rightly.
2.) There's an old tradition that has catechumens received on one of three different days (you can tell which ones they are, because the Trisagion is replaced by "As Many As Have Been Baptised" on those days) - I know two of them are Pascha and Christmas, but I don't remember the other one(s).
3.) Nothing moves very fast in Orthodoxy! :D :D :D

[MariaRegina]

What's the difference between an inquirer and cateuchman? Why does it take so long?

It depends under which jurisdiction your Orthodox Church is.

The OCA and Antiochians tend to call inquirers those people who are interested in Orthodoxy but who haven't made a comitment to study it in depth. So When inquirers are approved to attend special classes with the priest in preparation for Holy Baptism and/or Holy Chrismation, then they are acccepted (enrolled) into the catechumen with a special prayer service calling upon God's graces. It's quite beautiful.

In the Greek Orthodox Church, all people who study Orthodoxy are called inquirers. Those inquirers who are preparing for Holy Baptism are usually called catechumens. Those who are preparing for Holy Chrismation because they have already been baptized in another Christian Church are usually called inquirers or candidates (the same as in the Latin Catholic Church). The Greek Church (at least those on the West Coast) usually doesn't enroll catechumens, except on the day of their Holy Baptism. However, the pastor or bishop of each diocese may have a different practice.

So, talk to your priest. That's the safest way to go.

Hope this helps.

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

It depends under which jurisdiction your Orthodox Church is.

The OCA and Antiochians tend to call inquirers those people who are interested in Orthodoxy but who haven't made a comitment to study it in depth. So When inquirers are approved to attend special classes with the priest in preparation for Holy Baptism and/or Holy Chrismation, then they are acccepted (enrolled) into the catechumen with a special prayer service calling upon God's graces. It's quite beautifil.
Ok, thanks. I'm OCA right now, so I'll talk to my priest at Vespers.

[MariaRegina]

Ok, thanks. I'm OCA right now, so I'll talk to my priest at Vespers.

I'll remember you in my prayers.

BTW: What is your first name? We usually pray for people using their first name or baptismal name.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

It depends upon which first name you mean. Either Jeremiah or Bizzlebin will suffice (I am probably the only Bizzlebin though, so that will not confuse anybody :))

[gzt]

They also go slow because sometimes when they used to receive people quickly they wouldn't stick. It takes a long time to become Orthodox and it's not a very light decision.

[Wiffey]

One of the great things about Orthodoxy is that it is very individualized: your priest will get to know you and decide how long the process will be based on what your needs are. The time varies depending on what your background is, how much studying you've already done etc. The time frame can be anywhere from a couple of months to over a year.

I am really happy for you! :clap:

I think the OCA was a good choice. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my Greek parish and my daughter and I were warmly welcomed there (admittedly my husband's family have been active there for 30 years, so I sort of had the red carpet rolled out...). Greek parishes tend to have a large immigrant community and usually a lot of the liturgy is in Greek. OCA parishes tend to do liturgy in English and have a wonderful reputation for being accessible and welcoming of converts.

But we GOA folks have the AWESOME food festivals...
Wiffey

[The Virginian]

During various times in her history , the Christian Church has undergone persecution of every imaginable type, and severity. This was especially true during the years of the Early Church. The Roman Emperors who by now were thought of in terms of a god, did not take kindly to being in competition with anyone, let alone the One True God.
With the victory of Constantine the Great, and his tolerance of Christianity, a massive influx of Christians came into the Church. Ecclesiastical structure had to change, as did Church practices. When Constantine passed from the scene the large numbersof new Christians continued, and persecution was revived.
In those days being a Christian meant being a part of the Church, which meant you could lose your life. There were a significant enough number of them who recanted, that something had to be done. It was decided that the time for the cathecumens would be three years! During these years the cathecumenate were not only instructed, but also observed for their lifestyle and genuiness of their decisiion to follow Christ. It was without fail that at this time in the Early Church, Baptism and Chrismation, and reception into the Church occurred on Pascha.
It Was then, and is now , both a physical and spiritually serious decision to make to give your life to the Lord Jesus Christ.



the sinful and unworthy servant

[Matrona]

They also go slow because sometimes when they used to receive people quickly they wouldn't stick. It takes a long time to become Orthodox and it's not a very light decision.
This is true. I was received very fast for Orthodoxy. I was an inquirer for four and a half months, and was a catechumen for three months. To this day I do not know why Father decided I was ready to be received into the Church, but I am very glad he did. Becoming Orthodox has made all the difference in my life.

[Xpycoctomos]

Ok! I made it to my first Orthodox Church Liturgy today. It went well, and I was able to meet a lot of the members, as well as the priest. I think I'm going to convert to Orthodoxy :)

:clap:

Just take your time. As someone already said, it is a very serious decision. Nake sure to ask all the questions you can now. That is not to say that you cannot ask questions once you are an Orthodox. You just want to make sure that you are knwo what you're getting into. Most of all (and you know this) pray, pray, pray!

I'm so happy for you!

John.

PS: What is Bizzlebin? Is that your real name? what's it's origin? (sorry if this question was already asked, feel free to direct me to the post number)

[Theophorus]

Because I found nothing but truth in Orthodoxy. If it is truthful in its theology, and its worship, it must be the truth. It is the true Church.
The truth led me to Orthodoxy and I would say that it was no small miracle.

I too am happy for you.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

PS: What is Bizzlebin? Is that your real name? what's it's origin? (sorry if this question was already asked, feel free to direct me to the post number)
It is one of my real names. Hmm, not quite sure of the origin, but it is the one I use when dealing with business in Antarctica.

[Oblio]

You could be our first member of/or who visits the Russian OC in Antarctica :clap:

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Actually, I was hoping on forming a monastery there, somewhere near the edge of the protected zone, where one is greatly needed. If I am in the area, I'll be sure to visit it though!

[Xpycoctomos]

Wait wait wait... you are FROM Antartica? Sorry bud, you need to tell a little about your story, where you were born, where you live now, where your family's from. That's too intriguing to just give little snippits here and there ;) As least a link to somewhere where you HAVE introduced yourself!

John

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Well, I suppose I can give you a little more to think on Xprycoctomos ;)

When my father was stationed in Utah during his time in the Air Force, I was born. Right now, I am receiving education as well as touring some of the military bases in Colorado.

[Xpycoctomos]

So, your parents named you Bizzlebin when you were born... or Jeremiah? Which is your official name? They never told you why they gave you such an exotic and totally awesome name? You never asked even when (Im sure) some of your friends asked you as you were growing up? How long did you spend in Antartica? What is like there.... yeah, it's cold. But I mean, are their actual towns? This is fascinatiing.... you can ignore these questions if they are annoying (I won't be offended ;)) or, if you want to respond, you can PM me since I'm kind of highjacking this thread.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

sorry if I'm obsessing over this a bit. It's just intriguing. Hasn't anyone ever asked you? You are truly the international man of Mystery to me right now. lol. err.. Intercontinental (Antartica isn't a nation... right? But it's a continent... so.... uhm.. ok.. I'll shut up.. well, wait.. No, I won't shut up... I want to know about you Bizzlebin! ;)

[Dust and Ashes]

I heard recently that those who are ordained are forbidden to hold political positions still. Anybody who has killed a man, even if it is an accident, is generally not allowed to serve as a priest.
How far does this go? I mean is it only if someone physically killed someone or does it apply to any form of murder? What if someone used demonic forces (or was used by them as it were) to cause the death of a person or people, is that still considered murder?

[Dust and Ashes]

This is true. I was received very fast for Orthodoxy. I was an inquirer for four and a half months, and was a catechumen for three months. To this day I do not know why Father decided I was ready to be received into the Church, but I am very glad he did. Becoming Orthodox has made all the difference in my life.
You have a unique blend of zeal and wisdom in my opinion. Perhaps he saw that and realized you were "marked" so to speak and figured the decision had already been made so he should just make it official? I'm seeing more and more how our priests do things that often don't make sense but work out just fine as if they were planned by Someone. ;)

[Matrona]

You have a unique blend of zeal and wisdom in my opinion. Perhaps he saw that and realized you were "marked" so to speak and figured the decision had already been made so he should just make it official? I'm seeing more and more how our priests do things that often don't make sense but work out just fine as if they were planned by Someone. ;)
Thank you. :blush:

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

How far does this go? I mean is it only if someone physically killed someone or does it apply to any form of murder? What if someone used demonic forces (or was used by them as it were) to cause the death of a person or people, is that still considered murder?
Well, I would wonder how someone under demonic influence or using demonic power would be ordained in the first place :P But from what I have seen of the Orthodox, some take it very seriously (as if you hit somone in a car) but some are more lenient. I guess it just depends upon the person? No clue really :confused:

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So, your parents named you Bizzlebin when you were born... or Jeremiah? Which is your official name?
Well, my birth name is Jeremiah, however I am officially known as Bizzlebin in dealing with things Antarcticae, so it really depends on who you are talking to as to who they will say I am. Most people I know personally in America call me Jeremiah, while most of my inner circle and special/foreign acquaintances know me as Bizzlebin.

[gzt]

As far as I know, it applies to any sort of killing, even accidental, though for somebody already ordained I heard it may be possible for a bishop to make an exception but I wouldn't know. Does that answer your question?

[Xpycoctomos]

As far as I know, it applies to any sort of killing, even accidental, though for somebody already ordained I heard it may be possible for a bishop to make an exception but I wouldn't know. Does that answer your question?
I'm not questioning your knowledge, but if that's the case, I don't agree with that unless someone explains this better to me (why?). Sorry, that just doesn't seem rational by any stretch of my imagination.

John

[prodromos]

Well, my birth name is Jeremiah, however I am officially known as Bizzlebin in dealing with things Antarcticae, so it really depends on who you are talking to as to who they will say I am. Most people I know personally in America call me Jeremiah, while most of my inner circle and special/foreign acquaintances know me as Bizzlebin.
Your name and flag always makes me think of blizzard :D

[Dust and Ashes]

I'm not questioning your knowledge, but if that's the case, I don't agree with that unless someone explains this better to me (why?). Sorry, that just doesn't seem rational by any stretch of my imagination.

JohnThe reason I ask is because I used to be deeply involved in the occult. I have performed rituals and made (non-human!) sacrifices in order to cause the deaths of people and those people died in the very manner I prescribed during the rituals.

That was many years ago and I carry a deep shame and guilt for that period of my life and was actually drawn to Christianity initially because I worked with a Christian guy who was untouchable by anything occultic I tried. It just "died" whenever he was around and I was so intrigued by this "power" he had that I determined to find its Source.

If knowing this causes you to think less of, me I absolutely understand. I've done terrible things in my life and sometimes almost despair that I should ever find mercy.

[Xpycoctomos]

The reason I ask is because I used to be deeply involved in the occult. I have performed rituals and made (non-human!) sacrifices in order to cause the deaths of people and those people died in the very manner I prescribed during the rituals.

That was many years ago and I carry a deep shame and guilt for that period of my life and was actually drawn to Christianity initially because I worked with a Christian guy who was untouchable by anything occultic I tried. It just "died" whenever he was around and I was so intrigued by this "power" he had that I determined to find its Source.

If knowing this causes you to think less of, me I absolutely understand. I've done terrible things in my life and sometimes almost despair that I should ever find mercy.
Sometimes the biggest struggle in our life is dealing with the horrible things we've done in the past and NOT falling into despair (ie, accepting God's grace). While teh consequences of many sins cannot be undone, the gulf that you put between yourself and God, was indeed undone, or better yet filled, when you truly repented of this. I'm sure you've already done this, but if you haven't thought of it, you might pray for these souls every day of your life. This turns what was a demonic and hateful situation into one where you are acting as kind of ambassador to Christ on their behalf. If they Christians and in the end were saved, then you can be assured that they are praying for you right now precisely becasue you were their enemy. In fact, it may have been their prayers (in heaven) that brought you into contact with this "untouchable" guy.

None of this is to diminish the serious of what you say, and all of what I say is speculation on my part, except the undeniable truth that God forgives man for anything they truly repent of. Keep fighting Satan and his trick of dispair. It can pull us down into Hell as fast as hate can.

For inspiration, look at St. Paul for starters. While there is no proof to say that he directly played a part in the killing of Christians, he approved of this persecution unto death. He truly repented for this, and he never treated this like "oh well, who cares, it's all in the past.. no biggy". Rather he gave it the serious attention due, repented and moved on with his life, putting his full faith in Christ's Mercy.

It sounds like what you took part in was pehaps more comparable to St. Paul's situation than someone who directly killed someone. It doesn't make you any less innocent or guilty... participating or hoping for the death of someone is the same as actually doing it yourself in Christ's eye's... but we knwo He forgives everything and you need to know that He has already forgiven you and has accepted you into his arms with the same love that He has all of us here.

I'm rambling. I just don't want you to think that anyone here thinks less of you. It wouldn't cross my mind to do so and, besides, I have no right to.

Now, if you were thinking of being a priest or something, this is something (I would imagine) you need to bring up with your priest and, ultimately, with the bishop.

I have to run,

God bless Brother in Christ!

John

[Wiffey]

The reason I ask is because I used to be deeply involved in the occult. I have performed rituals and made (non-human!) sacrifices in order to cause the deaths of people and those people died in the very manner I prescribed during the rituals.

That was many years ago and I carry a deep shame and guilt for that period of my life and was actually drawn to Christianity initially because I worked with a Christian guy who was untouchable by anything occultic I tried. It just "died" whenever he was around and I was so intrigued by this "power" he had that I determined to find its Source.

If knowing this causes you to think less of, me I absolutely understand. I've done terrible things in my life and sometimes almost despair that I should ever find mercy.No judgment here, as there are many sins in my own closet! I just rejoice that you found your way free. My mother's family is from Cuba, and I grew up in South Florida around a whole lot of Santeria. There were times in my life, prior to becoming Orthodox, that I would turn to the Santeros when I felt overwhelmed and desperate. Due to some of my requests to family members for help, several chickens most likely perished!

Actually, I'm fairly sure that this sort of thing is pretty common these days with so much New Age, Santeria, etc. being increasingly popular in our society. I know that where I grew up the whole Santeria thing was just seen as a normal part of Cuban culture and (wrongly) seen as a natural extention of Catholicism. Consequently, a lot of folks dabbled in it...

In New England I see a lot of kids (and adults, too) who are getting involved with Wicca, which I never even heard of until I moved here.

God bless you!

Wiffey

[Xpycoctomos]

Excellent comparison Wiffey.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Well, I am going to Vespers tonight and I am going to talk to the priest specifically about conversion!

[Wiffey]

Well, I am going to Vespers tonight and I am going to talk to the priest specifically about conversion!
Terrific! Best of luck and God Bless!


Wiffey

[Dust and Ashes]

Let us know how things went. I've only been to Vespers twice but that's the price of living 2 hours away from Church. :(

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Well, it went great! It was quite different from Liturgy: a lot shorter and more singing. It was very dark as well; there are no lights except for the candles and the oil lamps. But, I got to talk to the priest more and he said that I am doing well, and just to continue to familiarize myself with the worship style. So, I guess that is a good thing :)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Well, it went great! It was quite different from Liturgy: a lot shorter and more singing. It was very dark as well; there are no lights except for the candles and the oil lamps. But, I got to talk to the priest more and he said that I am doing well, and just to continue to familiarize myself with the worship style. So, I guess that is a good thing :)
That's great, Bizzlebin! :clap: :thumbsup:

[Prawnik]

And if the part about not taking any medicine from Jews applied, we'd all be screwed at the E.R.
Remember also, at the time those canons were promulgated, what was called "medicine" had more in common with faith healing or occult practice than with what we today call "medical science".

Part of visiting a physician at that time involved allowing the physician to say prayers over you or engage in other practices, e.g. tying a phylactery to an injured limb, driving out demons, etc. Going to a Jewish doctor then would be like going to a rabbi instead of a priest.

Since, as far as I can tell, most Jewish doctors do not cast out demons or engage in faith healing, the underlying rationale of that canon no longer applies.