Invincible Ignorance

[RhetorTheo]

Do the Orthodox believe the concept of invincible ignorance? That is, can non-Christians be saved? Can a Muslim suicide bomber go to heaven?

[NewToLife]

Try this link for a detailed answer to the question from Archimandite Philaret.

http://www.greekspot.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-20925

[MariaRegina]

With the grace of God, anything is possible.

A person can be converted in the moments of death.

But we cannot presuppose or be presumptuous either.

Christ said to preach the gospel to the whole world. That is an obligation. Therefore we should not leave the pagans in darkness.

[Christy4Christ]

RT very nice thread ;)

[RhetorTheo]

With the grace of God, anything is possible.

A person can be converted in the moments of death.

But we cannot presuppose or be presumptuous either.

Okay, we cannot presume whether any particular muslims repents before death or not. But if a muslim suicide bomber does not repent before death, and continues to believe as a muslim and that suicide bombing is correct, would such a person be saved?

[RhetorTheo]

RT very nice thread ;)

Aww, shucks :blush:

[Oblio]

Okay, we cannot presume whether any particular muslims repents before death or not. But if a muslim suicide bomber does not repent before death, and continues to believe as a muslim and that suicide bombing is correct, would such a person be saved?


Dunno :scratch:

Why worry 'bout it :confused:

[countrymousenc]

If we spend more time preaching the Gospel to the world than we spend speculating over questions like this one, there might be fewer suicide bombers to speculate about. ;)

[OrthodoxTexan]

Seriously, I need to focus on worrying about my own worthiness before the awesome Judgement Seat of our Lord before I start contemplating the judgement to be rendered on anyone else. I hope and pray for the salvation of all of God's children.

[Christy4Christ]

I think the queston might have been misunderstood. Do you have a doctrine or teaching on invinsible ignorance? In other words does your church teach anything on this? For example, the Catechism speaks on this briefly...

[nyj]

Nah... I don't think they misunderstood the question... I just think none of them are rising to Rhetor's bait.

[countrymousenc]

I think the queston might have been misunderstood. Do you have a doctrine or teaching on invinsible ignorance? In other words does your church teach anything on this? For example, the Catechism speaks on this briefly...

Hi Christy :wave:

If you haven't already read the link provided in the second post, try that for at least a partial answer. It doesn't specifically address non-Christians, but perhaps there is some application by extension.

God bless you! :)

[Benedicta00]

Nah... I don't think they misunderstood the question... I just think none of them are rising to Rhetor's bait.

They are better at keeping their cool then we are.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I think the queston might have been misunderstood. Do you have a doctrine or teaching on invinsible ignorance? In other words does your church teach anything on this? For example, the Catechism speaks on this briefly...
The thing about Orthodoxy, Christy, is that we don't tend to define alot of things theologically unless they specifically need defined. Orthodox believe that we must spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth. We also believe that Christ died for all of mankind's redemption. But we don't have a specific doctrine dealing with how we officially stand on whether or not a "person who never had the ability to ever even hear the name of Christ" but lived a worthy life to be allowed into Heaven (invincable ignorance). That was one of the hardest things for me to learn and understand when I converted from being Roman Catholic to Orthodox.

[Reader Nilus]

Who is and who is not going to be saved is God's business. Our business is to live as close as we can to the Gospel and hope for God's mercy. What happens to another person, is not for me to know.
Jeff the Finn

[Suzannah]

They are better at keeping their cool then we are.No we're not...we just use the edit button a lot !!!! :D


Seriously, I think Rhetor needs to come clean:

Is the answer to your question going to change your life in some profound way or threaten your life? If the answer is no to both, then the answer is probably just a mental excercise for you. If the answer is yes to one of the above, then here's my answer:

The term "Invincible Ignorance" is not used in the Church. Orthodoxy just plain doesn't speculate about where God's grace is or isn't...we only know that Orthodoxy offers us the means of salvation within the Church. What God does with other people is sort of considered "nunya". (my daughter for " none of ya business"). St. John of Chrysostom says "We do not know where Hell is or who is there. Instead: Let us endeavor to avoid it ourselves..." (paraphrase).

I think that the Catholic view of this is remarkably clear. But I don't think it has an exact parallel in Orthodoxy per se.

[NewToLife]

Yesterday I was reading a book that my sponsor ( for non orthodox that's like a godparent ) had recommended to me and I stumbled across something from John Chrysostom, paraphrased it said;

'We do not know where hell is, neither do we know who is in it but our efforts are better spent in ensuring that we do not end up there than in answering such questions.'

I believe that Chrysostom sums up the Orthodox view quite well with this short statement.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Yesterday I was reading a book that my sponsor ( for non orthodox that's like a godparent ) had recommended to me and I stumbled across something from John Chrysostom, paraphrased it said;

'We do not know where hell is, neither do we know who is in it but our efforts are better spent in ensuring that we do not end up there than in answering such questions.'

I believe that Chrysostom sums up the Orthodox view quite well with this short statement.

Exactly! :clap:

[Benedicta00]

Yesterday I was reading a book that my sponsor ( for non orthodox that's like a godparent ) had recommended to me and I stumbled across something from John Chrysostom, paraphrased it said;

'We do not know where hell is, neither do we know who is in it but our efforts are better spent in ensuring that we do not end up there than in answering such questions.'

I believe that Chrysostom sums up the Orthodox view quite well with this short statement.

Sums up the Catholic view to.

[Christy4Christ]

Maybe you guys should take it easy on him, he must have something that concerns him or I doubt he would have posted the questions. I can relate to where his concern came from because before I had my questions answered, I was concerned myself. I highly doubt he was trying to cause strife.

I'm sure he understands that we do not judge who goes to Hell, I think he was more concerned about teachings than anything else..

We are so quick to call someone out on certain things, maybe we should just take time to try and understand them.

Just my humblest opinion.. :)

Sorry to intrude..

[NewToLife]

Lol, I just noticed Suzannah posted a paraphrase of the same quote as me and i didnt notice it. Apologies.

[MariaRegina]

Within Orthodoxy our priorities are first to repent.

Read my signature below for the famous words of St. Seraphim of Sarov (who was mentioned as a Saint by Pope John Paul II in his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope)