Calling out those that claim the Church is Pagan

[Dominus Fidelis]

People in the Messianic Judaism forum keep repeating claims that the Church is Pagan.

Specifically, comments such as...


the non-baptised Pagan Mithras worshipper Constantine decided what the "churchs" doctrine would be, and added his own beliefs to the mix.



pagan inputs crept into Roman catholic doctrines


...are seen over and over. Sometimes the comments are addressed by moderators, sometimes they are not.

I challenge those people to debate the topic in Formal Debates out in the open where the Church faithful can confront you.

Prove your case or stop insulting the Church that Jesus founded.

[Christy4Christ]

I'd be interested to see this debate...you may want to let the people you are speaking of know of this challenge..

[Dominus Fidelis]

I already did.

[simchat_torah]

oh? I wasn't informed ;)

jk

[Hix]

Nevermind...

[Toney]

My post also withdrawn.

Sorry excuse for Christian behaviour, top to bottom.

Shalom,

Toney

[Dominus Fidelis]

I missed whatever you said Hix.

Are you going to take the challenge or not?

And Toney...are you saying this challenge is a sorry excuse for Christian behavior? Do you think it is better to let them claim these things about the Church and just smile?

:scratch:

[simchat_torah]

How about if we do this as a team thingy?

I'll present a team of 3 and you present a team of 3? Is that ok with you guys?

How about:

Hix
Zemirah
Yafet


vs.

DefenseOfFidei
and 2 others of your choosing?

and we make a formal debate out of it? hehe...nothin like a formalized debate to kick off the weekend ;)


shalom,
yafet

ps. I promise to behave myself :)

[Dominus Fidelis]

That's fine, but it can't be until next week because I am going out of town shortly and won't be online.

Do Hix, Zemirah, and Yafet want to participate?

[Debi1967]

Oh Lord help us, you are all seriously considering debating such a fool issue. There is NO way that our Lord would ever let such a thing happen to His Church to begin with...And even if it started to it would quickly and ceremoniously be rooted out as our history has portrayed many times over. This is ridiculous......
Sorry I do not mean to be offensive but if the shoe was on the other foot you would be screaming too. And the only problem here is that we do except the Lord for many of you. That is what makes us pagan to begin with, to you.

[simchat_torah]

I am not one to declare "the church" as pagan, but rather I do believe that paganism has crept into the church. I think it is a vital issue, and for the health of the body, needs to be rooted out. Revelations refers to "that which the father did not plant will be uprooted".

I won't get into any actual discussion here as it is merely the invitation, but I (and many others) would strongly disagree debiwebi. If you feel so strongly that we are wrong, maybe you want to join in debate and prove us incorrect?

just an idea.
shalom,
yafet

[Toney]

And Toney...are you saying this challenge is a sorry excuse for Christian behavior? Do you think it is better to let them claim these things about the Church and just smile?


Since your second question anticipates an affirmative answer to your first question, the answer to your first question is 'no.'

My post suggested that a good title for the debate would be "Invincible Ignorance in Action" and then Hix made my point for me. I wish you the best, DoF.

In Christ,
Toney :)

[simchat_torah]

now now children.

[Christy4Christ]

edit

[Toney]

An apology has been extended to me and accepted, therefore this post was removed.

Lest there be any further misunderstanding, may I go on record in support of this debate, although with reservations. To wit:

Spurious accusations, of which there was an earlier (now withdrawn) lovely example is not "debate." I take the position that both Christianity and Judaism are chocked full of pagan influence and that it makes no difference whatsoever to the veracity of either.

Neither religion is based on paganism, was infiltrated by paganism, or other such nonsense. Pagan is just another word for hicks -- country bumpkins who have not the slightest idea of, nor much care for Revealed Truth -- the invincibly ignorant.

The Jews converted a lot of 'them pagans' to the faith, as did the Christians. My goodness, we ALL have pagan ancestors! Who are we to judge them?

Godspeed.

[ShirChadash]

I normally ignore threads "calling people out" -- it's rather poor netiquette. I'm responding here since Yafet mentioned me by name.

Frankly, I see no fruit coming from such a discussion and won't be participating, myself. I see this as yet another attempt on DoF's part to entrap MJ members here. Aside from that, as I tell everyone who asks me, I'm apologized out... used to argue zealously up and down the internet, but I try not to waste my time on it now if I can help myself. Life's too short to argue with people who have no intention of openly listening.

[simchat_torah]

I take the position that both Christianity and Judaism are chocked full of pagan influence and that it makes no difference whatsoever to the veracity of either.
I suppose we can discover this via a debate. I hold to the position, that at least to the first century, Judaism was pure and not "chocked full" of paganism. I hold to it that within a few hundred years of Messianic beliefs, paganism did in fact creep into what later was relabelled "christianity".

Spurious accusations, of which there was an earlier (now withdrawn) lovely example is not "debate." I would not do this Toney ;)

I know you are referring to another, but I would actually use historical evidence, rather than generic terms, etc.

I have seen the claim made numerous times by secular students/scholars that Judaism borrowed its faith from paganism, but I have yet to see this ever proven. You see, there is a difference between drawing a correlation and showing explicit origins. Some may find correlations between Baal and El, but never has there ever been shown an explicit connection in origins.

I would hold myself to the same standard when making such a claim as well. I would never claim X about christianity without actually providing historical and imperical evidence.

Pagan is just another word for hicks -- country bumpkins who have not the slightest idea of, nor much care for Revealed Truth I think the Torah makes itself clear that "pagan" is one who worships another deity. Borrowing from paganism does not make one a pagan. One must also examine whether the religion of choice (in this example, christianity) allows pagan practices to be used in worship of their deity.


Now, I am in no way making claims with this post. Nor am I beginning the debate. I am only laying out what is required by both sides.... explicit proof of origin.

Most likely Zemirah is correct in that he was baiting the MJ's into a debate that would only end up with us "excommunicated", but I am still willing to defend my position.

I know this is a touchy subject, and I am willing to deal with it in a mature and non-offensive manner.

shalom,
yafet

[simchat_torah]

To be honest, this is a good reason why I currently consider myself a Messianic instead of under a typical "christian denominational" banner.

among many other reasons ;)

[Toney]

First, I let the readers know that we are friends. I owe my avatar to you and other MJs, for whom I have the utmost respect. We are all brothers in the L-ord.

I suppose we can discover this via a debate. I hold to the position, that at least to the first century, Judaism was pure and not "chocked full" of paganism. I hold to it that within a few hundred years of Messianic beliefs, paganism did in fact creep into what later was relabelled "christianity".

This IMHO is a legitimate avenue of historical inquiry and I hold to my assertion, as you are prepared to defend yours.


Some may find correlations between Baal and El, but never has there ever been shown an explicit connection in origins.

And there's the rub. These fallacies are dependent upon post hoc ergo proper hoc argument. Explicit connections cannot be proven.


I think the Torah makes itself clear that "pagan" is one who worships another deity.

That may be. The etymology of the word is from the Latin paganus, country dweller. DoF would have to define some terms.



However, this is now all brought into question as to whether we will actually have a debate. It has been shown on the forums that DefenseOrFidei is a troll (aka s0uljah)....

Ah, yes! sOuljah, or ouch in English. j/k

PeterPaul and others suggest that it could be a learning experience, if handled properly. Therein lies the other rub. To me, seeking truth through discourse and dialectic is a noble objective. I know you share the same value. I could argue either side of this debate and learn something. But then that's me.

I know this is a touchy subject, and I am willing to deal with it in a mature and non-offensive manner.

shalom,
yafet

It would be presumptious for me to discuss what I would wear to this outing, so to speak, or how I would act. I have not been invited, nor am I DoF's favourite Catholic. Besides, there may be a rave that night.

[Debi1967]

However, this is now all brought into question as to whether we will actually have a debate. It has been shown on the forums that DefenseOrFidei is a troll (aka s0uljah).... Most likely Zemirah is correct in that he was baiting the MJ's into a debate that would only end up with us "excommunicated", but I am still willing to defend my position.

I know this is a touchy subject, and I am willing to deal with it in a mature and non-offensive manner.


How is this dealing with it in a mature and non-offensive manner when you have just called someone a troll? I know that it is a touchy subject as well but I wouldn't dare call anyone a troll even if I thought they were that is just wrong. I certainly wouldn't say it here I would confront them if I thought what they were doing was wrong and if their behaviour in a particular forum was bothersome then report what you find offensive and let the Mods take care of it. That would be my best suggestion as to how to handle a delicate situation as this....needed to edit the last line of my post because I went back and looked at the OP again sorry guys.

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Toney,

To me, seeking truth through discourse and dialectic is a noble objective. I know you share the same value.
Absolutely achi (my brother in hebrew).

-yafet

[simchat_torah]

How is this dealing with it in a mature and non-offensive manner when you have just called someone a troll?

Its not a matter of "name calling", but this is a forum and there are rules. Being banned for an explicit activity called "trolling" is a legitimate concern on internet forums ma lady.

I know that it is a touchy subject as well but I wouldn't dare call anyone a troll even if I thought they were that is just wrong.
I was a moderator previously on this forum, and let me tell you this is something we have to do on a daily basis. Its not to slight the person or make personal comments towards them, but realizing that they have agendas that need addressed and dealt with.

I certainly wouldn't say it here I would confront them if I thought what they were doing was wrong and if their behaviour in a particular forum was bothersome then report what you find offensive and let the Mods take care of it.
The problem is, this entire thread could easily fall upon the issue whether the OP intended this to be a troll or not. I am responding as such. Although I do believe he was trolling, I'm still willing to debate the subject. However, I will explicitly state that he is trolling becasuse if something were to happen through it all, it was known from the beginning that this is a troll topic.

I'm not going to play 'pretend' as if the OP was seroius in the matter.

That would be my best suggestion as to how to handle a delicate situation as this...

Well, thank you for your suggestion.

Otherwise what it sounds like to me is that you are baiting so as to get Defens to accept this invite.
Excuse me? DefenseorFridei is the one who made the invite!!! I am the one (or hix, etc) to make the acceptance.

I merely want it to be known from the outset that the intent is that of trolling. But, I am still willing to debate the topic despite that fact.


Now, there is nothing wrong with observing (even publically) that the intent of a thread is trolling. It happens a million times a day here at CF (publically and thorugh the 'report' function). I just don't want others to go into this debate blind to the fact.

In my honest opinion, and I may be wrong here, you are intending to find fault because you find this topic offensive. I may be wrong, but that is my assessment of why you specifically addressed my choice to call it out as it is.

So, all in all, no harm intended.

[Debi1967]

Excuse me? DefenseorFridei is the one who made the invite!!! I am the one (or hix, etc) to make the acceptance.

I editted my post to this effect because I went back and looked again...I also apologized

[Debi1967]

In my honest opinion, and I may be wrong here, you are intending to find fault because you find this topic offensive. I may be wrong, but that is my assessment of why you specifically addressed my choice to call it out as it is.

Sorry, first I would like to say in Defense of Defens that he genuinely is very exuberent when it comes to the Faith that we both have and to defending the Church. Sometimes he can take it to an extreme but it is done with all good intentions I assure you.
Secondly, I am new to the Faith so I too can become a little defensive at times and for that I am sorry. I have to be staunch right now in my Faith and in the Church because it is so new to me and there is still yet so much for me to learn and being swayed is easy for me. So I must stay single minded and rigid for the time being so that I can concentrate fully on what is necessary for my teaching. I meant no offense really I did not. The Mother Church though is everything to me and I would defend her and Christ with everything I have including my life if need be.

[nyj]

STOP!

If you are not here to either:

1. Accept the debate challenge, or...
2. Discuss the particulars of the debate (post length, turn-around time between posts, how many rounds, how many members per team, etc etc)

Do not post in this thread.

Mama mia, it's really sad when I have to come in here and potentially close down debate challenge threads because they themselves have turned into arguments.

[Debi1967]

I am accepting they have asked and I will participate as much as I can

[KennySe]

I look forward to following the debate.

[KennySe]

.

[Toney]

I propose a rule to ye makers of rules:

Establish a minimum age of 25 to qualify as a member of either team.

[simchat_torah]

phew... just made it ;)

I actually turn 26 in a couple of weeks, so I'm safe :D

But I don't think age is a nessecity. I believe maturity is, but definately not age. I guess I'll let the moderators (or those participating in the debate) determine that one.

[simchat_torah]

STOP in the name of love...



had to break the tension :D

[nyj]

I guess I'll let the moderators (or those participating in the debate) determine that one.
Ad hominem will not be tolerated, so if a poster is mature enough to not use ad hominem, I see no reason someone under 25 can participate. Plus, I imagine some of them young'uns can be more mature than some of us old geezers.

[Debi1967]

STOP in the name of love...



had to break the tension :D
LOL

[simchat_torah]

Plus, I imagine some of them young'uns can be more mature than some of us old geezers.
pshh... ain't that the truth?

[Toney]

But I don't think age is a necessity.

Now let's think about that. j/k

There should be some rule about throwing down the gauntlet and then leaving town, don't you think? It's just not kosher!

Yafet,

To move things along, how about proposing a proposition or two for this debate. Actually, and nyj may wish to rule upon this, I can't see anything improper about your naming the topic in DoF's inexplicable absence. I should think it quite difficult to be "called out" and then have to twiddle. Seems positively pagan, in fact.

How say you?

Shalom,
Toney

[simchat_torah]

I should think it quite difficult to be "called out" and then have to twiddle. Seems positively pagan, in fact.

ROFLOL...

I'll give it a bit of thought achi.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Excuse me? I am a troll? I am trying to "bait" you all to get you banned from CF?

:rolleyes:

If you think that is the case then simply don't participate. I am interested in addressing the facts of the matter, not participating in your mudslinging campaigns.

As far as having to wait till I get back in town, I am being sent to another country for my job for a week. This was short notice and I didn't get the word until after I posted the initial challenge. I am online today and then I am gone to another country until next Friday.

PS

For anyone that thinks I am a liar I can scan my airline ticket when I get back and upload it.

[JeffreyLloyd]

Enough guys or this thread will be gone...

[Dominus Fidelis]

So, one more time, who wants to debate me on this subject:


Pagan Mithras worshipper Constantine decided what the "churchs" doctrine would be, and added his own beliefs to the mix.


I take the negative position of course. Who among you MJs wants the affirmative position?

Let's stick to the facts instead of name calling and implying things about people's "agendas."

If you are up to the challenge, lets get it on... (after I get back from my trip)

[Toney]

This post removed as it was no longer applicable to a future non-debate, so to speak.

[simchat_torah]

Ya know toney... we could just make it a formal one on one debate?

[Toney]

This post resulted in unfortunate misunderstandings and was therefore removed.

The only challenge that remains on the table is stated by DoF in his OP.

Peace,

Toney

[YatzivPatgam]

So, one more time, who wants to debate me on this subject:



I take the negative position of course. Who among you MJs wants the affirmative position?

Let's stick to the facts instead of name calling and implying things about people's "agendas."

If you are up to the challenge, lets get it on... (after I get back from my trip)
I reserve the right to call you Pagans! :hug:

Now that is out of the way. I sit here are read this above post and simply wonder if it is to good to be true.

then again- I'm not a Mezzie. COuld I perhaps coach someone?

[Toney]

I reserve the right to call you Pagans! :hug:

Now that is out of the way. I sit here are read this above post and simply wonder if it is to good to be true.

then again- I'm not a Mezzie. COuld I perhaps coach someone?

It is written that all may benefit from the Wisdom of the Walrus, who evermore is true to his word.

I cannot speak for DoF, but to prevent things from becoming messy, shall we say, what better coach could the Christian team possibly have ;) ?

Shalom,
Toney

[Dominus Fidelis]

I reserve the right to call you Pagans! :hug:

Now that is out of the way. I sit here are read this above post and simply wonder if it is to good to be true.

then again- I'm not a Mezzie. COuld I perhaps coach someone?

What do you mean about "too good to be true?"

:scratch:

[TheScottsMen]

Alright, I have read through all five threads and I've laughed more then once already! It seems like two kids puffying out their chest but thats it. Why not stop the debate on debating and start the debate on the subject!

[simchat_torah]

It has been agreed (Toney and myself) via private means (pm's) that this debate will either take place at a later date or not at all.
Possibly at a later date this topic will be resumed, but until then, I don't think I'll be a part of it.

shalom,
yafet

[Dominus Fidelis]

God Bless you yafet