Well, I thought we'd found a church... but maybe not after all

[OnederWoman]

Well... after our search of over a year I had thought we'd finally found a church with a good kids program and lots of opportunity for us to get involved. Ds has been going Sun mornings and Wed nights and dh and I have been helping Wed nights, dh did clown ministry for the childrens church this past Sunday (he was a hit with all) and had been asked back on a once a month basis (plus extra for special events) and we had made plans to go on a mission trip in June to an Indian reservation where we were going to do some clowning as part of a VBS program. We were really excited about everything and just last night I sent out a family update email to all our friends and family telling them about all that was going on...

THEN....

Tonight at Awanas dh was told by one of the leaders that he couldn't continue helping with Awanas because he smokes. Even though dh is trying to quit... and even though there are other Awanas helpers who smoke (but have agreed to not smoke on church property). I was very hurt for dh. I know dh's heart for God, his faith and love for the Lord. I know dh's heart for children. I know the man dh is. I guess we're just new and they just don't know who dh is and see his outward faults and not his heart. We each talked to our Moms... and they both pretty much said we may need to move on. We were told by the childrens director that we may want to try the Baptist church across town... apparently when they got this new younger pastor who is for total abstenance of smoking and drinking they lost several members who went over to the other where they are more "liberal" and allow smoking and a glass of wine with a meal. We found it interesting that to be in the choir at church you have to sign a contract to not drink, smoke, see R rated movies or watch questionable TV shows. So, I wondered if that meant that the choir members aren't allowed to go see movies like the Passion of the Christ, Schindlers List or the Patriot (Mel Gibson)? And if their kids are allowed to watch movies like
Brother Bear, that while rated G is full of New Age thought? I agree that there are movies and television we should maybe avoid... but I don't know that we can judge them soley based on ratings.

Anyways.... please pray for our hearts... mine especially, I'm afraid that my hurt may turn into bitterness (I have been praying about this all evening though). Pray that we would be able to know if God wants us to move on or to stay. We want His guidence in what to do.

[Protestant Minister]

There's something wrong with this picture.Your message clearly explains the faulty rules of the minister but if you want to stay in the church you need to accept his decisions.And you DO want to stay in the church.The first part of your message explains how much the church is helping you So it looks like what's wrong with the picture is an emotional over-reaction to church authority..

Let's try a different approach.The best thing to do is to eliminate the smoking habit so the conflict with the church disappears.There certainly can be no doubt in your mind about the danger of smoking.In fact several years ago I was doing some research on cigarettes.I started to make a list of all the illnesses that they either cause or contribute to.When the list reached 100,I quit out of exhaustion.The truth is that nicotine affects all organs in the body..It contains over 2,000 chemicals many of which are toxic.So your minister does have reason to be alarmed by anyone who snokes.

Next question:how can your relative stop?It's only really hard for the first few days.After that the addiction really starts to lessen.In fact,primarily what is required is discipline.But there are treatments such as hypnosis and accupuncture that help.The American Lung Assn. or a hospital in your area may offer stop smoking classes.Going to a minister who has the gift of healing and asking God to be cured of the addiction is another way that will work,with enough faith that is.

The worst problem here is that you are on the verge of becoming "bitter" over what is a rather easily solved medical problem. And that can create seriious spiritual problems.If your relative will just get rid of his nasty habit,you can once again establish the important relationship with your church.Failure to do so can easily l create anger and unforgiveness and that can separate you from God.This addiction problem just isn't worth it.Help your relative get the help he needs.

[OnederWoman]

Well... first... I don't know that this church is doing anything "for" us that another couldn't. And it has been said it takes a good month or two to really find out if a church is good for you or not.

Second... LEGALISM. It's not a matter of not being able to accept authority... but a matter of not agreeing that the churches authority is matching up to God's word. Even if the smoking issue is taken care of, which of course we both are striving for with or without this particular church... there are still other issues of whether or not wine is ever allowable or not. While we do see drunkeness as a sin we do not see any sin at all in having a glass of wine with dinner on occasion.... they would. And, we would probably never agree on making movie viewing choices based on ratings alone (rememer the Passion of the Christ is rated R).

Bitterness would only occur if we stayed and were continually told we weren't meeting some kind of man made standard to say whether or not we are worthy to serve God where He has called us.

[Plan 9]

Choir members have to sign contracts??!!! There are many churches which would be thrilled to have dedicated members like yourselves and are not legalistic. :)
This isn't the right church for you.

[JPPT1974]

Pray and leave it all in God's hands because he will help you and your family find a church that is right for you. It may take awhile because when my family and I moved here to Seymour Tennessee it took us a long, long, time to find one and God placed us and he will place you and your family where he wants you all to be.

[Plan 9]

Yes, don't give up! God will direct you to the right church for you and your family. Sometimes it does take time, as JPPT points out, but the right church is well worth the search. :)

[BBAS 64]

Well... after our search of over a year I had thought we'd finally found a church with a good kids program and lots of opportunity for us to get involved. Ds has been going Sun mornings and Wed nights and dh and I have been helping Wed nights, dh did clown ministry for the childrens church this past Sunday (he was a hit with all) and had been asked back on a once a month basis (plus extra for special events) and we had made plans to go on a mission trip in June to an Indian reservation where we were going to do some clowning as part of a VBS program. We were really excited about everything and just last night I sent out a family update email to all our friends and family telling them about all that was going on...

THEN....

Tonight at Awanas dh was told by one of the leaders that he couldn't continue helping with Awanas because he smokes. Even though dh is trying to quit... and even though there are other Awanas helpers who smoke (but have agreed to not smoke on church property). I was very hurt for dh. I know dh's heart for God, his faith and love for the Lord. I know dh's heart for children. I know the man dh is. I guess we're just new and they just don't know who dh is and see his outward faults and not his heart. We each talked to our Moms... and they both pretty much said we may need to move on. We were told by the childrens director that we may want to try the Baptist church across town... apparently when they got this new younger pastor who is for total abstenance of smoking and drinking they lost several members who went over to the other where they are more "liberal" and allow smoking and a glass of wine with a meal. We found it interesting that to be in the choir at church you have to sign a contract to not drink, smoke, see R rated movies or watch questionable TV shows. So, I wondered if that meant that the choir members aren't allowed to go see movies like the Passion of the Christ, Schindlers List or the Patriot (Mel Gibson)? And if their kids are allowed to watch movies like
Brother Bear, that while rated G is full of New Age thought? I agree that there are movies and television we should maybe avoid... but I don't know that we can judge them soley based on ratings.

Anyways.... please pray for our hearts... mine especially, I'm afraid that my hurt may turn into bitterness (I have been praying about this all evening though). Pray that we would be able to know if God wants us to move on or to stay. We want His guidence in what to do.
Good Day, Onederwoman

I have been there and to some extent still am, I will be praying for you!

:prayer:

Bill

[OnederWoman]

Thanks guys... I'm glad to see so many supportive responces this morning. I was telling my Mom how tired I am of this seemiling neverending hunt for a church here. I know God has a place for us somewhere and that a year isn't really all that long, but I tend to get impatient at times. I'm not sure what exactly we'll do yet, though more than likely it will be to move on. Just praying a lot right now.

[eldermike]

You may not like this, It's not meant to offend you in any way.

You might be leaving the right church for the wrong reason. God moves us to places and circumstances that creates growth in us.

You may feel hurt by what that Elder said. But think about this some more. Leadership has high standards, not set by men, but by God. When Paul sent Timothy out, He was ready!. He told Timothy to choose leaders and gave Him standards to go by. Today's church (in way to many cases) is all about our feelings, and this is wrong.

If God sent you to an Elder that told you to change something, change it, and then see if He's wrong. If He's wrong then leave. Seek God in all things. Read 1'st and 2'nd Timothy and evaluate this Christian leaders statements from God's perspective.

Please don't seek justification from us, seek God.

Eldermike

[ChrisB]

This sounds most unbiblical to me. I don't think I could stand the pressure and certainly wouldn't sign anythig like that! Just a few quotes that seem relevant...............

Matthew 11
30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Luke 11

46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Galatians 5

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

[eldermike]

We are not ministry units of one. God gifted us to be part of something, not all of it. We have to agree on some standards (like the requirments for leadership, right from the bible).

The slavery of the law is misunderstood and used as a justification to become "all we want to be" in God's kingdom.

Asking a person gifted in Childrens ministry to stop smoking is not slavery.

Asking people who lead others into worship to pray for each other and enter into a covenant agreement with each other is not slavery.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Asking a person not to watch movies on their own time based on a secular rating system is ignorance.

Asking someone not to smoke, when it is not a sin, is legalism.

I can agree though that asking them not to smoke in front of the children they work with is more than accpetable, but asking them not to at all is a little out there. Christ himself drank wine and created wine, asking them not to drink is contradictory to the scripture, asking them not to be drunk would be much more in line. I see what you are saying eldermike but I cannot agree, this church is trying to control it's members with the scripture when we are to willingly submit to the authority of the scripture, and they are asking some things that are not even scriptural. The things they are asking are not things they should be asking their members or even their leaders. They go well beyond the scritural requirements for deacons and elders and that is just for the choir! I think OnederWoman is making the right decision leaving this church and pharisical (my new word) attitude they are enforcing.

[eldermike]

All I am suggesting, if you read my first post again is to seek God, not me, you or anyone on this issue.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I agree that God hould be sought, be the counsel of other Christians is valuable as well. I am sorry if I offended, it was not my intention.

[eldermike]

I am not offended, this is a good discussion actually.

The counsel of other Christians is a good thing. But, the idea is to seek counsel, not agreement with your feelings.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

The counsel of other Christians is a good thing. But, the idea is to seek counsel, not agreement with your feelings.

Now that I completely agree with, council does not mean approval! I happen to approve of her decision in this case, but obviously council should be sought and taken into account whether or not you agree with it. Great point!

[ufonium2]

It's a church, it's not Dr. Phil. Sure, smoking is bad for you, and it would be good if nobody did it. Cholesterol is also bad for you, do they let you eat red meat?

Drunkeness is wrong, but so is gluttony. If you use total abstinence from alcohol to prevent drunkeness, shouldn't you abstain from food to prevent gluttony?

We are all sinners, we are all unworthy, and signing a pledge not to watch certain movies or put certain chemicals into our bodies doesn't make us somehow more worthy to enter God's house. It's a Pharisee mentality to think that it does.

Sorry, I have zero tolerance for churches like this.

[OnederWoman]

We are not ministry units of one. God gifted us to be part of something, not all of it. We have to agree on some standards (like the requirments for leadership, right from the bible).

The slavery of the law is misunderstood and used as a justification to become "all we want to be" in God's kingdom.

Asking a person gifted in Childrens ministry to stop smoking is not slavery.

Asking people who lead others into worship to pray for each other and enter into a covenant agreement with each other is not slavery.
Titus 1:6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer[2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=***+1&language=english&version=NIV#footnote_14832045_2)] is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Not that my dh want to be an Elder, but he pretty much fits into the requirments... none of which mention smoking. And, it doesn't say you can not drink wine, it says you can't be given to drunkeness.... which he's not. We do not agree with prohibition of alcohol.

We have no problem with them preferreing that dh quit smoking... he is actually in the process of quiting and has already cut back to half of what he was smoking. And... not just that... they admit that there are other helpers who are smoking that they haven't asked to step down, because these smokers hide their smoking by not smoking on church property. My dh refuses to hide who he is or lie about who he is.... faults and all.

It's not at all that we think that we shouldn't hold ourselves to a high standard as Christians... but there is a difference between having standards and being oppressed by legalism (see back at my argument about what movies we should or should not see). We're not going to change our opinion that having a glass of wine with dinner is ok (or drinking any alcoholic beverage for that matter if it's because you enjoy the taste and aren't looking to become drunk)... and we won't hide or lie about that either. Even when dh does finally succeed in his efforts to quit smoking. Even if dh didn't want to quit smoking though I believe God would still be blessing us as he always has and God would still use us for His glory.

And no... I'm not looking here for anyones approval... I was interested though in what the reponces would be here. We are seeking counsel from our most trusted Christian friends, including out Elders from our church back in our home town (where we attended from 1991 to 2002).

[OnederWoman]

I can agree though that asking them not to smoke in front of the children they work with is more than accpetable, but asking them not to at all is a little out there.
Just so everyone knows... dh was smoking outside away from all the children and youth, away from the entrances. He does not want to be a bad influence on children, but again he will not hide himself or lie about who he is.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Just so everyone knows... dh was smoking outside away from all the children and youth, away from the entrances. He does not want to be a bad influence on children, but again he will not hide himself or lie about who he is.

Just to make this clear, I do smoke, and am a youth leader. My youth group knows I smoke and to be honest they, the youth, are the ones pressuring me to quit the most out of anyone around me. Since I work with the older youth I don't hide it, I don't light up a smoke right in front of them but I do smoke and they know it. They have been to my house (I smoke outside). I hope I didn't imply that your husband was a bad influence, if he is then I am as well!

[eldermike]

And no... I'm not looking here for anyones approval... I was interested though in what the reponces would be here. We are seeking counsel from our most trusted Christian friends, including out Elders from our church back in our home town (where we attended from 1991 to 2002).
Thanks for the additional information. I am as against legalism as anyone I know. But, I am also an elder and I have been in hard situations where I am sure from some prespective I came across as a legalists, which I am not.

And, smoking is not a sin. What can be sin is not submitting to the standards of a fellowship you have joined. But if there is a double standard then I would leave or seek to change it.

I will pray for your decision.

Eldermike

[OnederWoman]

I will pray for your decision.

Eldermike
Thanks...

I am also jsut a bit more emotional than normal... being 4 mths pg I was more easily upset than I usually would be.

And I'm not sure at this point whether we're going to maybe speak to the churches pastor and get a better idea of where the church stands on these issues and whether we'd ever be a good fit there.... or if we're going to just take this as it's time to continue our search yet again.

[eldermike]

And I'm not sure at this point whether we're going to maybe speak to the churches pastor and get a better idea of where the church stands on these issues and whether we'd ever be a good fit there.... or if we're going to just take this as it's time to continue our search yet again.
That sounds like a good plan to me.

Eldermike

[Jim B]

You may not like this, It's not meant to offend you in any way.

You might be leaving the right church for the wrong reason. God moves us to places and circumstances that creates growth in us.

You may feel hurt by what that Elder said. But think about this some more. Leadership has high standards, not set by men, but by God. When Paul sent Timothy out, He was ready!. He told Timothy to choose leaders and gave Him standards to go by. Today's church (in way to many cases) is all about our feelings, and this is wrong.

If God sent you to an Elder that told you to change something, change it, and then see if He's wrong. If He's wrong then leave. Seek God in all things. Read 1'st and 2'nd Timothy and evaluate this Christian leaders statements from God's perspective.

Please don't seek justification from us, seek God.

Eldermike
Hey Elder,

The problem with rules and man-made traditions, even for leader’s, is that we tend to judge the external, visible transgressions. Who knows how many “leaders” surf porno sites in private, or drink and use profanity when away from church members, or think vile thoughts, or flirt with other people’s spouses, or …etc.etc., ad infinitum?

When such hypocrisy such comes to light, which it does (all too often), it makes our silly rules seem what they are … stupid. And everyone in our group is justly labeled a hypocrite. If God took the lid off every one of our lives, including our leaders, who among us could throw the first stone?

I say, follow Christ’s advice and stop trying to extract motes from other’s eyes and tend to your own beam.

Jim
\o/

[eldermike]

The problem with rules and man-made traditions, even for leader’s, is that we tend to judge the external, visible transgressions. Who knows how many “leaders” surf porno sites in private, or drink and use profanity when away from church members, or think vile thoughts, or flirt with other people’s spouses, or …etc.etc., ad infinitum?

This is a justification method. You can extend this to it's failure point eaisly enough. Why have church at all, someone will just let you down.

God gave us a roadmap to life, I for one am not going to throw it out over the sins and failures of some Christian leaders. We are to gather together to spur one another on to good works. The very reason to gather is to encourage one another out of the very sins you mentioned. Accountability is a missing element in todays Christian church.

I have heard it said that "I only answer to God"
Now would someone show me in the bible where this is a true biblical concept? Don't bother because the bible is full of mentoring, from first page to last. There is no ministry unit of one. Even your gifts are to be used to bless others, not yourself. You can't function as a Christian apart from your missing gifts. We are branches, not a tree that stands alone.

Mike

[Plan 9]

What I don't understand is why this church doesn't make these requirements known right up front. Issuing a simple pamphlet and making it available, as non-denominational churches routinely do with their doctrinal statements and practices, would have allowed Oneder Woman's family to come to a decision without suffering any hurt or bewilderment whatsoever.
I think it's unethical to welcome them and encourage them to be involved and then lower the boom on them in the way that this church did when they could have made their standards for their members perfectly clear at the outset.
Because of the way the church went about this, I don't think Oneder Woman is overracting one bit.
Let's take Eldermike as an example. I don't know him as well as I'd like, but he is obviously an open, welcoming and ethical man; he has been very kind and patient with me, never leaping to the conclusions others sometimes do about me here, and I imagine his church as being equally forbearing, so that no matter what standards are set for its members, new members are made aware of them as soon as possible as possible. :)
Standards do vary, even among very conservative churches, and I can't imagine any church not wanting to make such strict standards clear from the get-go. CF itself makes every effort to do this, and doing so makes it easier for all of us, mods (elders) and members alike.
It's not that this church has such strict standards which bothers me, but that this method by which they're "revealed" at a later time is slipshod at best, and unethical at worst.
I smoke myself, and I quit while attending Bible college, but I knew that not smoking there was a requirement, along with others, before I chose it. That's only fair, just as it was only fair that I adhere to them as best I could, and it saved me much potential hurt and bewilderment to have those standards clearly laid out for me in advance. It was good for everyone, teachers and students, to have such issues out of the way so that we could all get on with teaching and learning.

Btw, we were only required to refrain from smoking on campus, but I felt that the spirit of the law was best followed by quitting entirely,even though that wasn't expected of us students.
Another poster here seemed to be expressing the opinion that everyone can quit smoking at the drop of a hat, but that's not true of most smokers, and OW's husband could be better helped in this effort by having the support of his church as he struggles to do so, not its condemnation.
OW, with your permission, I will pray for your husband that he win his battle; I know it's one he can win if he doesn't lose heart and that God will help him, but any man who works so hard to benefit his church immediately after first attending should be treasured there, whether he smokes at home, or not. Anyone who cares to look up the statistics knows that women are most active in outreaches and church affairs of all kinds, and outnumber men in attendance, too.
I applaud him, and if OW's family lived in my area, I would be thrilled to invite them to my church, and would fervently hope that they would love it enough to make it their home!

[PetraFan007]

watch out for cults (not to say your church is one, but I know friends who used to be in one)

[Plan 9]

PETRAFAN! :wave:

One of my Bible college teachers was Bob Hartman, and another of the founding members of Petra gave me music lessons! :)

[eldermike]

Standards do vary, even among very conservative churches, and I can't imagine any church not wanting to make such strict standards clear from the get-go. CF itself makes every effort to do this, and doing so makes it easier for all of us, mods (elders) and members alike.

I totally agree with this. Prespective/new member classes should clearly lay out the mission and standards, any rules and expectations of members and leaders.

Eldermike

[countrymousenc]

What I don't understand is why this church doesn't make these requirements known right up front. Issuing a simple pamphlet and making it available, as non-denominational churches routinely do with their doctrinal statements and practices, would have allowed Oneder Woman's family to come to a decision without suffering any hurt or bewilderment whatsoever.
I think it's unethical to welcome them and encourage them to be involved and then lower the boom on them in the way that this church did when they could have made their standards for their members perfectly clear at the outset.

If I may chime in, I think Plan 9 has a good point. While I'm all for (obviously) submitting to godly leadership, it doesn't sound as though that's what the church in question is providing. What they've done is manipulative and sneaky, and I'm afraid that if you stayed, that's what you'd get more of. In this particular instance, you'd be right to get out.

Pray and seek the guidance of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may He bless you on your journey.

[MParedon]

To the OP, I haven't read all the other posts, but my suggestion is maybe you should stay with that church and do what they want. It may be a nudge from the holy spirit to be obediant. Then again, you might want to step back and look at all of their doctrine, are you wanting to leave b/c of that specific incident? or are you wanting to leave because there is absolutely no way you can reconsile yourself with the whole of their beliefs?

[OnederWoman]

To the OP, I haven't read all the other posts, but my suggestion is maybe you should stay with that church and do what they want. It may be a nudge from the holy spirit to be obediant. Then again, you might want to step back and look at all of their doctrine, are you wanting to leave b/c of that specific incident? or are you wanting to leave because there is absolutely no way you can reconsile yourself with the whole of their beliefs?
Our opinion of their "standards" is that they were made by men with good intentions, but from the flesh and not from seeking the Holy Spirit.

[MParedon]

Our opinion of their "standards" is that they were made by men with good intentions, but from the flesh and not from seeking the Holy Spirit.
Oh, well I guess there are two ways to go about it. In my faith we aren't supposed to leave a parish 'cause of disagreements but stay and do our darndest to change it for the better (usually it's b/c some parishes are sadly lacking in fellowship and people tend to abandon ship, but there are other issues too). So that could be one option: stay and then try to lead them to seek the Holy Spirit more instead of the good intentions from the flesh.

Or, you could go, but I would make sure that the next church you go to has all their ducks in a row. Find out what they believe and why and then make sure that they don't waver from it.

I guess my opinion is a bit hardnosed, sorry, but I really do hope I help.

Wells here's a hug for you no matter what happens:hug:

[OnederWoman]

Oh, well I guess there are two ways to go about it. In my faith we aren't supposed to leave a parish 'cause of disagreements but stay and do our darndest to change it for the better (usually it's b/c some parishes are sadly lacking in fellowship and people tend to abandon ship, but there are other issues too). So that could be one option: stay and then try to lead them to seek the Holy Spirit more instead of the good intentions from the flesh.

Or, you could go, but I would make sure that the next church you go to has all their ducks in a row. Find out what they believe and why and then make sure that they don't waver from it.

I guess my opinion is a bit hardnosed, sorry, but I really do hope I help.

Wells here's a hug for you no matter what happens:hug:
You have to remember also that we've been church hunting since we moved here a year ago. Also... we consider ourselves non-denominational, so we are not tied to a specific denomination. At our old church which we attended for over 10 years of course there were times of disagreement... and we never ran out or anything... so it's not like we've never been commited to a chruch long term. Right now we're just trying to find a church we can consider home and commit to. We thought this one might be it, but we were only there 6 weeks and apparently under 6 weeks was not enough time to figure out what they were all about. I heard a program on Christian radio about looking for a church home and even they said it takes about 2 months of attending a church to really know whether it's the one or not (of course some we've been able to know that just from one visit). This was just the roughest experiance thus far... the others we tried the break was easy, nothing was really wrong in those places, we just knew it wasn't the place for us. This time we got hurt.