Reformed Soteriology and Children: Help

[theseed]

I have found good proof that children are part of God's elect, because they have angels and only the elect have angels. And if children are covered by God's grace, then how does that play in adulthood? Are they saved until a certain age, and after that they must experiance the Spirits regeneration and seek God to inherit salvation?:help:


A)Angles are assigned to those who inherit salvation, or the elect if you will.

Psalm 91

9 Because thou hast made the LORD, who is my refuge, even the Most High, thy habitation,
10 there shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee in all thy ways.

Hebrews 1
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation?

B)Children have angels

Matthew 18.10
10 "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

C)Children are part of God's elect

A = B and C = B, therefore, A = C

http://www.christianforums.com/t100939

[Reformationist]

I am not completely prepared to give a full account of the biblical support for the place of children in the family of the Lord but I'll offer what I can.

Let's break this down:

I have found good proof that children are part of God's elect, because they have angels and only the elect have angels.

I would need to study this a lot more before coming to any conclusion on this. Sorry, I'm no help on that.

And if children are covered by God's grace, then how does that play in adulthood? Are they saved until a certain age, and after that they must experiance the Spirits regeneration and seek God to inherit salvation?:help:

This one is actually easy. If a child is elected by God unto salvation then they were, are, and always will be God's elect. NO ONE inherits salvation because they seek it. We inherit salvation because the Lord Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient in appeasing the wrath of God against the sins of His elect. As for experiencing the regeneration of their heart, all who are His will experience this, some young, some old. No one is saved as a child and then loses their salvation at some mythical age of accountability.

I'll see if I can find something on this issue to offer you some insight.

Good luck,
God bless

[theseed]

I've been doing some googling and I'm posting what I find here for reference, that does not mean I endorse what I find, it is only part of my own investigation.



Calvinists believe persons dying in infancy are saved in this manner. Contrary to the slanders of Arminians and Romanists, Calvinists do not believe any persons dying in infancy are ******.

One of the most glorious aspects of the Calvinist doctrine of infant salvation is that it magnifies the goodness and grace of God in salvation and in no way contradicts Holy Scriptures. To the contrary, Arminianism denies the need of God's grace for the salvation of infants. And Romanism exalts the work of parents in having their infants baptized, and bars from heaven the departed infants of those parents who did not do so.
http://grace-for-today.com/687.htm (This quote seems to imply that death of an infant is a mark of his/her election)

So far, this is all I found.

[theseed]

I found a good site that answers most of these questions, basically, it says that infant salvation could only work under reformed theology, since arminism is dependant on faith before the Holy Spirit.

So I guess we could say that dying in infancy, or even before, are marks of election. I also confirm that children as young as 7 can have a concrete understanding of God, like alot of people do--they are not limited mentally.

http://faith.propadeutic.com/infants.html

This brings up the supposition that infants can have faith, but can't express it because they are limited--according to this article, they are justified, santified, and glorified as written in Romans 8.30.

[theseed]

:sigh:

[JVAC]

Genesis 8:21

"The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in His heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood"

Psalms 53:2-3,6

"God looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."...."Oh that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores the fortunes of his people let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad."

What horrible creatures we are, who hate our maker. Thank God for the salavtion that is Jesus, the Christ of God. None can have hope of salvation outside of Christ. Therefore, be baptised into the name of God [Father, Son and Holy Ghost] and believe!

-James

[Reformationist]

Hey seed, will you PM me that link that got removed? I didn't get a chance to look at it before it was removed? Thanks.

God bless

[BBAS 64]

Hey seed, will you PM me that link that got removed? I didn't get a chance to look at it before it was removed? Thanks.

God bless
Seed, if you would be so kind as to send it to me also.

Thank you

Bill

[Gabriel]

Hey seed, will you PM me that link that got removed? I didn't get a chance to look at it before it was removed? Thanks.

God bless
Same here. I'd like to check it out.

[LynneClomina]

i have thought that the elect will always receive Christ during their lifetime, and that if they don't, then they werent on of the elect. i always thought that if an infant dies it is a sign that they were NOT elect, for the elect will always live long enough to become a christian. and yet david said that he would see his son in heaven. so i felt that there must be a special grace upon infants up until a certain age, decided in advance for each child by God. but that doenst make sense - becuase that would mean that un-elect children who die still get to heaven. but really, if an infant dies, we dont know if they were elect or not, and will never know until we get to heaven. i can understand the rationale that all infants that die are elect/saved. and yet i cant - it seems to me that we cant know one way or another. that we just wont know until the afterglow (heaven). but then how did david know he'd see his son again? :scratch: :sigh:

[theseed]

i always thought that if an infant dies it is a sign that they were NOT elect, for the elect will always live long enough to become a christian
On what basis do you determine that all elect must be adults? You are placing a condition for salvtion by saying this. I've seen no proof in the bible that all the elect must reach adults. I see evidence to the contrary, because God has chosen the weak in this world to be strong in faith (1 Cor. 1).

[theseed]

Hey seed, will you PM me that link that got removed? I didn't get a chance to look at it before it was removed? Thanks.

God bless
Yes I will. I did not the link was that bad, it said some slander. I'm not at home, so I have to wait until then, since I bookmarked.

[theseed]

Oh wait, it was referring to a different link. There had to have been 100 links on that page.

[CCWoody]

I have found good proof that children are part of God's elect, because they have angels and only the elect have angels. And if children are covered by God's grace, then how does that play in adulthood? Are they saved until a certain age, and after that they must experiance the Spirits regeneration and seek God to inherit salvation?:help:




http://www.christianforums.com/t100939

I'll see if I can devote more time here later. I have a son who had emergency surgery yesterday for post OP bleeding (Tonsils) and I'm a bit tied up for the near future.

But, as for Children having their angels....


What makes you think that the children mentioned in Matthew 18:10 aren't us as well as those who are our children who are also the elect?
Matthew 18:3,10,11,14 Unless YOU are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.... For I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father.... For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
Are you counted with the little ones of whom the Father WILLS their salvation?

[BBAS 64]

:prayer: For CC and his son.

Bill

[theseed]

What makes you think that the children mentioned in Matthew 18:10 aren't us as well as those who are our children who are also the elect?

Excellent point, this may be an ambious pronoun.

[theseed]

I have a son who had emergency surgery yesterday for post OP bleeding (Tonsils) and I'm a bit tied up for the near future.

:prayer:I will pray for you and your son :prayer:

[LynneClomina]

On what basis do you determine that all elect must be adults? You are placing a condition for salvtion by saying this. I've seen no proof in the bible that all the elect must reach adults. I see evidence to the contrary, because God has chosen the weak in this world to be strong in faith (1 Cor. 1).

there's a lot of time between infant and adult.... for example, the ages of 3, 7, 10, 14.......

and i really dont know what i believe about this one.

[theseed]

Yes, there is. And I don't either, that's why I posed the question. There is compelling evidence that children who die are saved, therefore elect. God is not will for the little ones to perish (Matt. 18.14). It works well with TULIP thelogy, but it does not work with Arminian theology, which says salvation comes after faith. But some people believe that "sacraments" can impart grace, I wonder if all arminiansts believe this. If they don't, then I imagine they have some thinking to do :)

[Bulldog]

But some people believe that "sacraments" can impart grace, I wonder if all arminiansts believe this. If they don't, then I imagine they have some thinking to do :)

In my expirence with Arminians, (which is very frequent, considering that my school and parents are Arminians) they do NOT. :)

[Henhouse]

This is very interesting. My dh and I have been working on the innocence of children idea for a while now. Still not sure what I believe about it.

It seems to me (leaving aside the 'elect' idea) to come down to original sin. Are we sinners because we inherit the sin nature from Adam, or are we sinners because we willfully and knowingly sin? I don't see how the first option is compatible with the innocent children theory.

My church (A/G) teaches 'original sin', 'age of accountability', non-predestination, and that the sacraments are only a sign of your inner spiritual work, not a part of that working. I guess that sounds heretical to many of you. I really just agree with the sacrament part.

Don't mean to take this thread OT, but these ideas are all connected, and have all been mentioned in several posts already...

[Bulldog]

This is very interesting. My dh and I have been working on the innocence of children idea for a while now. Still not sure what I believe about it.

It seems to me (leaving aside the 'elect' idea) to come down to original sin. Are we sinners because we inherit the sin nature from Adam, or are we sinners because we willfully and knowingly sin? I don't see how the first option is compatible with the innocent children theory.

We sin because we are sinners, not the other way around.

My church (A/G) teaches 'original sin', 'age of accountability', non-predestination, and that the sacraments are only a sign of your inner spiritual work, not a part of that working. I guess that sounds heretical to many of you. I really just agree with the sacrament part.

I go to an AOG school. It almost seems that every day I learn of how I disagree with their beliefs more and more.......

[HiredGoon]

The Canons of Dort

The first main point of doctrine

Article 17

The Salvation of the Infants of Believers

Since we must make judgments about God's will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy.