Inquiry - prayers to saints

[ShiFuBill]

Hello all, I am a Protestent inquirer into the Orthodox faith. A while back I picked up a copy of Eusebius' History of the Church and realized I needed to look into the Church. I have found a lot of info online and I'm reading through writings by the church fathers now. I'm in Taiwan so it makes it hard to find books in English, so most of my readings come from the internet.
One thing I can't find much help on is praying to the the departed saints. I wonder if anyone can help me here. What is the scriptural/tradional basis for this? When did it enter the church? I haven't found mention of it in any of the Church fathers I've read thus far, can anyone tell me the first record of it?
Thanks for all help and God bless :-)

[Philip]

Hello all, I am a Protestent inquirer into the Orthodox faith.

Welcome.

One thing I can't find much help on is praying to the the departed saints.

It is important to remember that when we say "pray to a Saint", we mean "seek the intercession of a Saint". That the Saints intercede for us is firmly established in Scripture.

I wonder if anyone can help me here. What is the scriptural/tradional basis for this? When did it enter the church? I haven't found mention of it in any of the Church fathers I've read thus far, can anyone tell me the first record of it?


The earliest unambiguous record of it of which I am aware is an inscription from the Roman catacombs over a child's tomb. It read "Peter and Paul, pray for us."

There is little evidence of seeking the intercessions of the Saints in Scriptures. Of course, there is a reason for this. However, I believe that there is at least one passage that clearly points to Jews seeking the intercession of the Holy Prophet Elijah.

[Rick of Wessex]

Hello ShiFuBill, and welcome! :wave:

Our souls are immortal and Scripture says, "God is not a God of the dead, but of the living." Was Moses dead when he appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration? St. Paul in his Letter to the Hebrews says we are surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses."

The problem that most people have with the communion of saints is that they may think we go to the saints instead of Christ. Nothing could be further than the truth.

Christ and the Apostles, especially Saint Paul, urge us to pray for one another. Now, if (for instance) a Baptist can ask his pastor or a friend (who both still have a chance to ruin their lives through sin) to pray for him, why can I not ask those who have already made it through this life, who have overcome sin by Christ's grace, to pray for me? If someone tells me that I cannot ask a saint to pray for me simply because they are physically dead, they are denying the immortality of the soul and the afterlife.

There has never been a time when the Christian Church has not asked for the prayers of the saints. This practice dates all the way back to the time of the Apostles, because that is exactly what the Apostles taught us. This practice was not done away with until well after the Reformation.

Hope this helps.
In XC,
Rick

[Rick of Wessex]

And here are what some of the early Church Fathers taught about this subject.


Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).


Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).


Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).


Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

In XC,
Rick

[Alfred M]

Rick-

I just wanted to tell you did a great job of answering the question regarding praying "to" the saints. I do not think it could have been answered any better.

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred, the lowliest of sinners.

[Philip]

Tradition maintains that St Ignatius appeared to the Church of Antioch in their dreams after his martyrdom in Rome. In this vision, he was praying for the city of Rome. This occured around AD 107.

[Rick of Wessex]

Hi, Alfred.

Thanks! That first answer was based on a friend's answer in another forum, plus a few other sources. I'm glad to know it was helpful.

In XC,
Rick

[ShiFuBill]

Sorry, I misspoke when I said prayer 'to' the saints. I know it is really a request for intercession, but having been taught all my life that Catholics (didn't know much about Orthodox) pray TO the saints, it still slips out sometimes.
Rick - Thanks for the info, that was just what I wanted to know. Can you give me a link to where you got those quotes from the Fathers? Or did you just type it all in?

Also, I forgot to ask, can anyone give me some good sites with info about Orthodox doctrine?
Cheers,
Bill

[Oblio]

Welcome Bill,

Not sure if he got the ECF quotes here at Early Church Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2) but it is a good online reference. Also, a good place to read up on Orthodox doctine is FatherAlexander.org (http:www.fatheralexander.org). Hope that helps, and once again welcome to TAW.

- Chris

[Christy4Christ]

Sorry, I misspoke when I said prayer 'to' the saints. I know it is really a request for intercession, but having been taught all my life that Catholics (didn't know much about Orthodox) pray TO the saints, it still slips out sometimes.
Rick - Thanks for the info, that was just what I wanted to know. Can you give me a link to where you got those quotes from the Fathers? Or did you just type it all in?

Also, I forgot to ask, can anyone give me some good sites with info about Orthodox doctrine?
Cheers,
Bill

Sorry guys to intrude on your thread!

Hi everyone! :wave:

Just a quick correction from a Catholic girl, we don't pray TO the saints, we also ask for intercession. :)

[jameseb]

Also, I forgot to ask, can anyone give me some good sites with info about Orthodox doctrine?
Cheers,
Bill


This may also help you, mate~ http://www.goarch.org/

[nicodemus]

ShiFuBill,

The Orthodox Church in Asia is centered in Hong Kong. They have a monthly publication in English called The Censer and it is a nice magazine. I even get in here in the USA! I'm sure if you dropped them an email or called them, they'd be happy to add you to the mailing list. I know it is free for members of the parishes, and I'm sure they'd be happy to send free info to an inquirer.

This is their website: http://www.cs.ust.hk/faculty/dimitris/metro/hkmetropolis.html

It'll be a good place for you to start, and it also has information about the history of Orthodoxy in China.

[Philip]

Sorry, I misspoke when I said prayer 'to' the saints. I know it is really a request for intercession, but having been taught all my life that Catholics (didn't know much about Orthodox) pray TO the saints, it still slips out sometimes.

No need to apologize. We use the phrase "pray to St. N." quite often. I just wanted to be sure you understood what we meant by it.

[ShiFuBill]

Thanks for the website nicodemus. I'll have a good look at it since I lived in China for a long time. However I noticed that Taiwan (which may or may not be China depending on who you ask) is not included. Anyone know which Metropolis (correct term?) Taiwan is under? If I'm not mistaken, the church here is Greek Orthodox and I think the Presbeter (correct?) is Greek. As far as I know, there is only one in Taiwan, at least only one in the Capital of Taipei. It's in the north 'burbs and I'm in the south 'burbs. Could be a good agrument for not converting ;-)

Would any one happen to know any Orthodox Christians in Taiwan? Long shot, but thought I'd try.
Cheers,
Bill

[Rick of Wessex]

Hello, ShiFuBill!

Rick - Thanks for the info, that was just what I wanted to know. Can you give me a link to where you got those quotes from the Fathers? Or did you just type it all in?

Don't mention it. ;) Almost all the quotes were taken from the CCEL site that Oblio mentioned, a fantastic resource on Patristic Literature.

Also, I forgot to ask, can anyone give me some good sites with info about Orthodox doctrine?

Sure! Here are a few, all of them very good:

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/index.htm
http://www.philthompson.net/home.html
http://www.synaxis.org/

In XC,
Rick

[nicodemus]

Thanks for the website nicodemus. I'll have a good look at it since I lived in China for a long time. However I noticed that Taiwan (which may or may not be China depending on who you ask) is not included. Anyone know which Metropolis (correct term?) Taiwan is under? If I'm not mistaken, the church here is Greek Orthodox and I think the Presbeter (correct?) is Greek. As far as I know, there is only one in Taiwan, at least only one in the Capital of Taipei. It's in the north 'burbs and I'm in the south 'burbs. Could be a good agrument for not converting ;-)

Bill

I was a little unsure about how to handle the Taiwan - China thing. I didn't want to offend you. They could very well cover Taiwan, they're pretty bad about updating their website. Metropolitan Nikitas was appointed by the Ecumenical Patriarch. I would imagine he'd be over Taiwan too.

[ShiFuBill]

I was a little unsure about how to handle the Taiwan - China thing. I didn't want to offend you.

Haha, you won't offend me, I'm American. I just work here ;) It's been a little hectic here what with the controversial referendum, the president getting shot the day before elections, and now mass protests outside his office demanding a recount of his .2% election victory, so I'm not going to tell you whose side I'm on.

They could very well cover Taiwan, they're pretty bad about updating their website. Metropolitan Nikitas was appointed by the Ecumenical Patriarch. I would imagine he'd be over Taiwan too.

WOW!!! I just checked out the web site of the Holy Trinity Orthodox Church of Taipei, Taiwan. It has recently moved to XinDian, my town!!! I was a bit worried about how involved in the church I would be (if I convered, which is still an issue) because it would have taken me so long to get there. Now it's just a few subway stops away. I know God didn't move it here just for me, but I'm thankful for this anyway.

So what is the Ecumenical Patriach? Is that the Bishop of Constantinople? The Priest of this church is appointed by the Metropolitan of Hong Kong. If I understand correctly, he is a priest-monk from Mt. Athos who came here as a missionary. There are just about 10-30 people attending, mostly from Slavic countries from what I gather, with just a few locals. The web site is: wwwtrinitylight.net - Holy Trinity Orthodox Church of Taiwan

Thanks for all the help!

[nicodemus]

Anytime, let me know if there's anything else I can help you with. Yes, the Ecumenical Patriarch is the Patriarch (bishop) of Constantinople. Constantinople oversees a lot of the missionary activity in Africa and Asia and the Americas.

That's pretty awesome that the priest is an Athonite monk. I'd go check the place out for sure. Chances are that he'd be a very wise spiritual advisor!