Torah

[IKTCA]

THROUGH ISRAEL G-d wanted to reveal his glory and power to all nations and peoples. So he gave his laws to his people through Moses. Israel received Torah from G-d. Torah explains how Israel must live. If Israel follows the laws, they shall have life.

(Moses said) If you obey the commandments of the Lord your G-d….you shall live….(Deuteronomy 30:16)

But G-d did not just give Torah to Israel and left. He knew his people were rebellious and would not follow the laws.

They have done what is evil in my sight and have provoked me to anger, since the day their ancestors came out of Egypt, even to this day. (2 Kings 21:16)

So his glory stayed among his people at the tent of meeting. In fact, his glory stayed inside the tent with the ark of covenant above which was the mercy seat. Even after G-d gave his laws to his people, he continued to speak through Moses and Joshua.

G-d did not intend to give Torah by itself. Judges and prophets whom he raised, stone tablets that he prepared himself, the ark that contained the tablets, his glory that resided with the ark, and the priesthood from Aaron’s lineage who would offer sacrifices. He gave all these along with Torah so that Israel could obey Torah. (And they still disobeyed.)

Now, judges are no more, stone tablets have disappeared, the ark is lost, his glory left the temple, and the priests are no more. How is Israel going to obey Torah? Has Israel become better than when they crossed the sea dry? Can Israel now obey Torah without Moses, without the stone tablets, without the ark, without the glory of G-d, and without the priests?

[Charlesinflorida]

Now, judges are no more, stone tablets have disappeared, the ark is lost, his glory left the temple, and the priests are no more. How is Israel going to obey Torah? Has Israel become better than when they crossed the sea dry? Can Israel now obey Torah without Moses, without the stone tablets, without the ark, without the glory of G-d, and without the priests?


Now, judges are no more, stone tablets have disappeared,

But the Torah, the prophets and the writings, written on scrolls remain.

the ark is lost,

It was lost before the second temple period, yet the Temple system continued.


his glory left the temple,

Was his Glory ever there in the second temple?

and the priests are no more.

The priests have no function without the temple service, but the teachers of Torah and the priests that were teachers were brought into the synagogue system of the diaspora.


How is Israel going to obey Torah? Has Israel become better than when they crossed the sea dry? Can Israel now obey Torah without Moses, without the stone tablets, without the ark, without the glory of G-d, and without the priests?

How does the church continue now that the Messiah is no longer standing in our midst, the apostles are all gone.
The Jews follow Gods word just as you do. And the spirit moves them toward truth against the flow of mens traditions.

Do you as a bliever follow traditions of the 4th century church or do you follow the commandments given by God and preserved in the scriptures? If you are a christian then you are following mans traditions more than the word of Elohim. Who is really walking in faith, the man who reads the word and says to himself, "this is not for me, this was only for the Jews" or the man who reads the word and obeys the word as best he can and askes Elohim "forgive me for I have failed. Help me to follow you as I should."

Read my Signature line for more information.

Charles the Messimaniac

[Henaynei]

Has Israel become better than when they crossed the sea dry? Can Israel now obey Torah without Moses, without the stone tablets, without the ark, without the glory of G-d, and without the priests?
Are we?? Israel was no better and no worse than believers today.

This is NOT replacement theology, but rather a recognition of the common disease of mankind - sin. We ALL got it and the Truth of Torah is the only answer for it!!
B"H!!:amen:

[JewishHeart]

you said:

"If you are a christian then you are following mans traditions more than the word of Elohim."

is this an accusation against all those precious believers on this earth who follow YHVH

you need to read a messianic ministries take on your last statement. Its the article in front of you

www.tikkunministries.org

[visionary]

It takes a spiritual Jew to understand the Jewish God, God, the Father. "It takes a spiritual jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29 It takes the spiritual Jew to understand Jesus, the King of the Jews. The spiritual Jew is one who has gone to the Mount Sinai and found Mount Zion.

[Henaynei]

you said:

"If you are a christian then you are following mans traditions more than the word of Elohim."

is this an accusation against all those precious believers on this earth who follow YHVH

you need to read a messianic ministries take on your last statement. Its the article in front of you

www.tikkunministries.org (http://www.tikkunministries.org/)There are other, equally valid, ministries who hold similar views as CiF and that counter the stand of Tikkun ;)

As in Judaism, it depends on the spiritual authority you choose to follow. And as long as we all recognize Yeshua as Messiah and ernestly seek to honor Him and His Word, I don't see the value in claiming one authroity is more "lead by the Spirt" than another.

[Charlesinflorida]

you said:

"If you are a christian then you are following mans traditions more than the word of Elohim."

is this an accusation against all those precious believers on this earth who follow YHVH

you need to read a messianic ministries take on your last statement. Its the article in front of you

www.tikkunministries.org

Jewish heart,

It is my opinion that Christianity is a religion that makes a separate God out of Messiah Yeshua, and then worships him in ways that are not from the word of Elohim as writen in the Tanahk it would seem. Have you ever noticed that Yeshua does not tell us in the scriptures to worship him, or to pray to him. Even for the future when he was to assend to heaven he does not tell his disciples to pray to him, but he always direct the believers to Elohim.

IS Yeshua worthy of praise and worship? In my opinion Yes! But we are not to separate Yeshua from the father. They are one. Echad as it seems to me anyway, And so is the Ruach, they are all one. And there is a great deal more. There is the wisdom of God. The will of God. The mercy of God. The power of God. The understanding of God. The wisdom of God. The beauty of God. Ect. These are all attributes of God, just as the Ruach and the son are attributes of God. It seems a good thing to me that We are not to separate these into individual Gods, as the Pagans did. We are to worship, trust in, be obedeint to, and pray to the entire Echad, Elohim, he is our Adonai, or so the scriptures seem to be saying as I understand them in my limited way.

The church is nowhere near this kind of understanding as I discover from my limited experiece of attending them, reading books by Chrstian authors and taking part in Forum discussions.
Judaism knows who they worship and they are obedient to Him. Obededience as I understand it from a Jewish perspective is the highest form or worship.

It appears that the church believes Christ Jesus came to set them free from the "harsh and opppressive father and his rediculas laws". So now they (Those calling themselves Christain), worship their liberator Jesus, and do so just as the men who made up this doctrine, worshipped him. Are there exceptions within the Church? Certainly, but most are afraid to break loose and simply follow the Lord. In my most humble opinion that is of course.

CIF

[simchat_torah]

"If you are a christian then you are following mans traditions more than the word of Elohim."

is this an accusation against all those precious believers on this earth who follow YHVH

you need to read a messianic ministries take on your last statement. Its the article in front of you

www.tikkunministries.org (http://www.tikkunministries.org/)Tikkun is a christian organization, not messianic.

[Henaynei]

In a debating and discussion format it is often more productive to make statements that say "It is my opinion" - or quote the opinions of others (with documentation) than to make statements that, while not meant to, sound more like "What you said/belief is _____"

I think you will find that much more communication and less battling will happen ;)

[JewishHeart]

"Judaism knows who they worship and they are obedient to Him"

Rabbinic Judaism or Messianic Judaism?

Because Hebrews makes it pretty clear about breaking the Sabbath rest and being disobedient due to unbelief in the Messiah.

Simchat,

Go to Tikkun's website, they do not define themselves as a christian organization, rather as a messianic apostolic network.

Asher is not a pastor anymore as well. He lives here in Israel, is an elder of our messianic congregation, and one of the leading evangelists in Israel.

[Charlesinflorida]

It is my most humble opinion that there is some basic differences between the way the Christain church and its adherants perceive GOD our Elohim, and the way those of a Jewish or Messianic background perceive Him. I have a theory, (Just a theory as I certainly could be wrong) that both of these veiws are not simultaneously correct and that one of them must be in error. It seems to me that there might even be some misunderstndings about what the Jewish perception of God really is. I am only guessing, but perhaps that could be resolved through open sharing of information, which would most likely include our individual impressions and opinions on the subject, as there is likely to be quite some variance even from one Messianic to another. In my opinion that is.But then again perhaps this discovery would serve no purpose and we would be better of simply talking about the weather and what music we like.

Charles "Chocked full of nuts", Messimaniac in Florida where it is currently 74 Degres and cloudy with sun breaks and an occassional drizzle.

[simchat_torah]

Asher is not a pastor anymore as well.
His own website calls himself a messianic pastor.

fyi.

[simchat_torah]

Rabbinic Judaism or Messianic Judaism?

Because Hebrews makes it pretty clear about breaking the Sabbath rest and being disobedient due to unbelief in the Messiah.

oh? where's that?

[Charlesinflorida]

"Judaism knows who they worship and they are obedient to Him"

Rabbinic Judaism or Messianic Judaism?

Because Hebrews makes it pretty clear about breaking the Sabbath rest and being disobedient due to unbelief in the Messiah.

.

Actually, as I understand it, Rabinical Judaism and Messianic Judaism Do believe in, worship, and are obedient to the same God, Elohim. Would it not be safe to say that Christianity is the religion that has separated a single part of God to worship and call God, Jesus the Christ.

It appears to me that the Jews who do not accept Jesus as Messiah, do so because they have been exposed to the doctrines and beliefs of the Church and find these things contrary to the Torah. And God beat it into them over many centuries that if any man claims to be from God and does not keep the Torah and uphold it, that they are to reject him. So their rejection of Jesus is out of faith and trust in Elohim and His word. History tells us, as do the scriptures that many thousands of Jews including a very large number of the priests believed that Yeshua was the Messiah, in the beginning. It was not until after the new believers of Gentile persuasion began to add things to the stories of Yeshua that were contrary to Torah, (Turning Yeshua of the Jews into Jesus of the Church who was anti Torah and hated his own people) that then the Jews rejected the Messiah. This should stand as a warning sign to the church, but it didn't.

Of course this is only my opinion and what I see through comparing the writings of the Bible and Historical writings of the church.

Perhaps the Messiah was here to bring back the lost and separated sheep and not the ones who were already in the pen and grazing before their owner. Messiah makes a way for those who are separated from God to return to Him. What if they are already there? Do they need to return to where they already are in the first place?

Charles in Florida,

(The above statements are those of Chrales in Florida and do not reflect the opinions of the owners, operator or other members of this forum. Any resemblence to persons living or dead are coincidential.)

[visionary]

Luke 21:24 "..... Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." There are two fulfillments that occurred, one is the return of the Jews to Jerusalem, and the other is the return of the Jews to their Messiah.

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." Rev 11:2 The court which is without the temple is where the sacrifice was made, where the Christians see Jesus upon the cross and worship there, they have not gone "bolness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh:" Heb 10:19,20. The sanctuary in heaven is experiencing the fall feast from the seven trumpets (seven trumpets of Revelation) of The Feast of Trumpets. Then comes the Day of Atonement, "whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon" Day of Decision. Rev 9:11. "there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour, and I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." Rev 8:1,2 What happens "the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His poer; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plaques of the seven angels were fulfilled." Rev 15:8 sounds like " and it came to pass, when the priest were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the Lord, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of Lord." 1King 8:10-11

[ShirChadash]

The fact is -- if it didn't come from Judaism, it's pagan. If it isn't found in the Word, it's origin is paganism. WHY are people not able to handle simple denotation of words anymore?


Any practice that didn't originate within the Abrahamic faith, is "pagan". THAT is what pagan means.

Technically, Islam is not "pagan". It isn't Biblical either, so it is not to be followed by the children belonging to the One True G-d, YHVH Elohim.


Christianity itself is not pagan but again, any practices you find within Christianity that are not found in the Bible (IOW extra-Biblical)... are from some origin, no? Paganism. And those practices must not be practiced.


Judaism is not paganism either, and it is far more Biblical than not, most certainly. And what about Judaism and its extra-Biblical (meaning, extra-written Torah) practices? Again -- same thing... any practice that goes AGAINST anything in the Bible must not be practiced. So hop to it. There's a lot of material to wade through. But the one of these three that has the most pagan practices in it is obvious to anyone who will actually open their eyes. And no, the information isn't restricted to spurious, intentionally inflammatory sites on the internet.


Just my .02 clink clink.

[simchat_torah]

The fact is -- if it didn't come from Judaism, it's pagan.
I'm not so sure I'd be willing to jump to this myself. While I readily accept that which is Jewish, I still examine it both in study and in my heart. Remember, people lead religions. I accept all that which is founded upon the Torah.

Problem is, most of that which is not Jewish, or founded upon Jewish principles , typically can find its origins in paganism. Thus, it will have a harder time being accepted by me ;)

shalom achoti,
yafet

[visionary]

The last blessing in the Bible is "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14 "Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in." Is 26:2 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." Ecc 12:13

[Charlesinflorida]

Those who are the rue blievers o the last days, "Keep the Commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah." Rev 12:17 They do both.

The Righteous nation. Righteous means "To be obedient to Gods commandments, to obey divine law." Sin on he other hand, "Is the breaking of the law".

CIF

[ShirChadash]

[/font]
I'm not so sure I'd be willing to jump to this myself. While I readily accept that which is Jewish, I still examine it both in study and in my heart. Remember, people lead religions. I accept all that which is founded upon the Torah.

Problem is, most of that which is not Jewish, or founded upon Jewish principles , typically can find its origins in paganism. Thus, it will have a harder time being accepted by me ;)

shalom achoti,
yafet
OKay LOL. Lemme try again -- you caught me -- that wasn't what I meant to say... I meant specifically that if it isn't of Abrahmic faith origin, then *technically* it is "pagan" in origin... per denotative dictionary definitions ;) But I definitely agree as well with what you said there ^ and it's very important to me to carefully examine what I do and believe as well, and I try to conform my beliefs and practices the whole of the Word and not go against it.

[IKTCA]

I apologize for the debate that my post caused. It was not my intention. I will explain.

I started my post with the statement that G-d wanted to reveal his power and glory THROUGH ISRAEL. I believe that plan is still in place: THROUGH ISRAEL. I am a Gentile Christian. To me, Paul is a greater prophet than Moses (though it is a childish thing to say one is greater than the other.) Paul wrote that Israel would blossom more gloriously than the Gentiles. Then I read the wonderful promises in Prophets which are again about Israel. As CIF repeatedly stated, Gentiles are to be brought to Israel as one nation, not the other way. I know it, too. That is why I keep my eyes on Israel.

Israel is my hope. I am anxiously waiting for the day when Israel will be returned to the G-d of Israel. But I do not see how Israel can do so by relying on Torah only. (at least in my brain and in my logic) When I read the Prophets, my spirit becomes stirred with hopeful anticipation and I cannot but see Israel with the same anticipation.

So I wrote the post, decribing the thoughts that have been disturbing me: How can Israel return to their G-d without the stone tablets (Remember G-d prepared these himself though he could have commanded Moses to make a duplicate), without Moses who talked to G-d face to face (CIF mentioned rabbis but do they talk to G-d face to face? No, they don't.), without the ark (upon which the mercy seat was wherefrom G-d spoke to Moses)? Israel rebelled even with all these. Now without them, how are they going to find the way?

Do you see the frustration I have in me? Does anyone, even one single person, feel my frustration and sadness? I wrote the post with many sighs, but with the expectation that someone would tell me that I was wrong. But where was I wrong? I read the replies but find no answers but debates.

I apologize again for the heated debate I caused. The G-d of Israel knows my heart.