Role of the Torah

[schwartmrs]

This is a study I did a long time ago...in fact, you could say that this is the study that "turned me into" a Messianic. It is directed at a mainstream charismatic church, and has since been adopted as the official church "stand" concerning the Torah. If it sounds a little harsh in places, keep in mind that at the time, I was getting a lot of "we're not under the Law."



In Support of the Law of the Lord


Overview

To make your life a little easier, I’m going to summarize my findings very briefly. It is my belief that the role of the Law in the life of the New Testament believer is that of a moral compass, a pathway to godly behavior, and final authority in matters of doctrine. Although we are not subject to the penalties of the Law, we are required to obey every precept unless it is specifically countermanded by the New Testament. That might make a lot of people mad, but my supporting scriptures are listed below. Check them out, consider my supporting arguments, and let me know what you think.




THE LAW BEFORE SINAI

Genesis 4:7 “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.
Genesis 4:8-12 the story of the murder of Abel…is murder a sin?
Genesis 6:5 by what standard is man judged as “wicked”?
Genesis 6:9, 7:1 by what standard is man judged as “blameless” or “righteous”?
Genesis 7:2 “clean” animals? How did Noah know which were which?
Genesis 9:4-7 Noahide Covenant
Genesis 13:13 Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the Lord.
Genesis 18:20 And the Lord said, ”The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.”

The Bible clearly states that there WAS sin in the world before Sinai. It is not any surprise to me that God had a standard by which to judge what was sin and what was not. What surprises me is that MAN had a standard by which to judge what was sin and what was not. Look at Genesis 19:7. Lot seemed to have some definition of what “wicked” meant. What was his standard? It has long been believed that there must have been an “oral law” that was probably handed down from Adam. I think that Scripture provides a foundation for that belief. If this is true, I think it is reasonable to think that God intended for mankind to adhere to a basic Moral Code. What is this code? What are its precepts? Could it be that this “Great Moral Code” formed the basis of the Torah?



THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW


II TIM 3:14-17 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work

It is interesting to me that Paul refers to the “sacred writings” that Timothy had known “from childhood” as being able to give “wisdom that leads to salvation through faith.” These writings must have been Old Testament, because, even though Paul’s writings were referred to as scripture, they would not have been available to Timothy “from childhood.” Also, Paul does not say that the Old Testament scriptures are defunct, nor does he say that they alone lead to salvation, rather he says that they give wisdom and that this wisdom leads to salvation and that salvation is through faith. This is the sum total of our/my position on the Law and its role in our lives.

Paul follows this statement by giving a very clear list of the functions of scripture…he does not specifically include the Old Testament, nor does he exclude it. One could argue that he is speaking of Old Testament scripture in particular since that seems to be the context of the statement. At the very least, he is making a general statement of the purposes of all scripture. I took this list and found that it applied very nicely to the Old Testament without rocking the theological boat at all. A sample of supporting scriptures are listed below. An hour’s digging will surely find more.



WISDOM
Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple

LEADS TO SALVATION

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

TEACHING

Exodus 24:12 Now the LORD said to Moses, ""Come up to Me on the mountain and remain there, and I will give you the stone tablets with the law and the commandment which I have written for their instruction.''
Psalm 94:12 Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O LORD, And whom You teach out of Your law;

REPROOF
Psalm 94:12 Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O LORD, And whom You teach out of Your law;

CORRECTION
Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS

Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth
Matthew 7:12 ""In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets
Matthew 23:23 ""Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.


EQUIPPING


PROPHECY

Matthew 11:13 ""For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Matthew 5:18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Acts 28:23 When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening.



OLD TESTAMENT VIEW OF THE LAW


It seems to be a commonly held misconception that the Law was seen by Israel as being repressive and demanding. This is simply wrong. The list that follows gives a very different perspective. I should add, that I found NO scriptures in the Old Testament portraying the Law as repressive.


Deuteronomy 4:8 "Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?
Psalm 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.
Psalm 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart.

Psalm 119:1 How blessed are those whose way is blameless, Who walk in the law of the LORD.

Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law.

Psalm 119:29 Remove the false way from me, And graciously grant me Your law.

Psalm 119:34 Give me understanding, that I may observe Your law And keep it with all my heart.

Psalm 119:44 So I will keep Your law continually, Forever and ever.

Psalm 119:55 O LORD, I remember Your name in the night, And keep Your law.


Psalm 119:72 The law of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of gold and silver pieces. Y Yodh.

Psalm 119:77 May Your compassion come to me that I may live, For Your law is my delight.

Psalm 119:92 If Your law had not been my delight, Then I would have perished in my affliction.

Psalm 119:97 O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day.

Psalm 119:163 I hate and despise falsehood, But I love Your law.

Psalm 119:165 Those who love Your law have great peace, And nothing causes them to stumble.

Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, O LORD, And Your law is my delight.

Proverbs 28:7 He who keeps the law is a discerning son, But he who is a companion of gluttons humiliates his father.

Proverbs 28:9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination.

Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained, But happy is he who keeps the law.



BLESSING OF THE LAW


Joshua 1:8 ""This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.

Joshua 22:5 ""Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, to love the LORD your God and walk in all His ways and keep His commandments and hold fast to Him and serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul.''

[schwartmrs]

THE SOURCE OF THE LAW

I think it is important to remember where the Law came from. Although it is commonly called the Law of Moses, it is actually the Law of the Lord. As such, it gives us a unique view of the character and personality of God. It is His Great Moral Code. It is His Standard.

Isaiah 33:22 For the LORD is our judge, The LORD is our lawgiver, The LORD is our king; He will save
.
James 4:12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD was pleased for His righteousness' sake To make the law great and glorious-




THE FUTURE OF THE LAW

All I want to ask is this one question…if the Law is a thing of the past, why, then, is it apparently a thing of the future? These scriptures are widely considered to be prophecies concerning the Millennial Kingdom. If we view the Law with fear and dread, shouldn’t we also view the Millennial Kingdom in the same light? As shocking and abhorrent as that statement may seem, the irrational and emotional reactions that I frequently get when speaking of the Law are equally shocking and abhorrent to me.

Isaiah 2:3 And many peoples will come and say, ""Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths.'' For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Micah 4:2 Many nations will come and say, ""Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths.'' For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.


And what about these prophecies? They clearly portray Jesus as a champion of the Law, not a destroyer of it.

Jeremiah 31:33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, ""I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Isaiah 42:4 ""He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law.''

Isaiah 51:4 ""Pay attention to Me, O My people, And give ear to Me, O My nation; For a law will go forth from Me, And I will set My justice for a light of the peoples.




JESUS AND THE LAW

A lot of misconception has arisen from the word “fulfill” as used by Jesus when speaking of the Law in Matthew 5:17 and places like it. I did a word search in my Strong’s concerning the word fulfill and the word abolish. At the risk of sounding like an Amplified Bible, here is what the verse sounds like when you put it all together

Do not think that I came to kataluo (loosen, disintegrate, demolish, halt, destroy, dissolve, overthrow, throw down) the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to kataluo (loosen, disintegrate, demolish, halt, destroy, dissolve, overthrow, throw down) but to pleroo (to make replete, to cram full, to level up (as in a hollow), satisfy, execute (as in an office), to finish (a period or task), verify, complete, fill up, make fully come, fully preach, perfect).

I do not see here any reason to believe that the Law has passed away. I think Jesus made it very clear that He was not “letting us off the hook” as some would believe, but rather, He was “raising the bar”. It is my belief that the Lord did what any good teacher would do. He gave us His standards in order to train us. Then, when His time was right, He sent His Son to teach us the “spirit” of the Law. When you learn algebra, you don’t learn WHY you need to know all these equations, just that you DO. Later, when you get into calculus and physics and such, you learn what all those algebraic equations are for. I think God did the same thing. Algebra won’t get you to the moon, but without it, physics won’t get you there either. You need each in its proper place in order to function as intended. By the same token “by works will no man be justified” but on the other hand “faith without works is dead”. Each has its proper place.

Matthew 5:17 ""Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Matthew 23:23 ""Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Luke 16:17 ""But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

John 7:49 ""But this crowd which does not know the Law is accursed.''

JOHN 10:35 THE SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN

PAUL AND THE LAW

In the following passages, it seems clear that adherence to the Law is a GOOD thing. It also seems clear that the Law is regarded as the standard by which to measure the truth of doctrine.

Acts 21:20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, ""You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

Acts 24:14 ""But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

Acts 25:8 while Paul said in his own defense, ""I have committed no offense either against the Law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar.''

Romans 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Romans 2:14–15 for when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Romans 2:25-27 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 7:12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
Romans 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Maybe Paul was not as antagonistic toward the Law as some believe?


1 Corinthians 9:8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?

Once again, we have Paul appealing to the Law to vindicate his doctrine. To me that implies that Paul regarded the Law as the final authority in matters of doctrine.

[schwartmrs]

Paul’s Sticky Statements and My thoughts


It almost seems like sometimes the Apostle Paul was speaking contrary to the rest of scripture and the rest of his own statements when he spoke about the Law. We know that this cannot be true, so we must be misinterpreting these scriptures…or maybe we are assuming things. I am no scholar, but I am going to try to tackle some of these difficult passages.

Sticky Passage #1

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

I think it’s funny that when we read this passage, our first reaction is “we aren’t under the Law, so we aren’t going to be judged by it”. The only other option given is to perish without it…is that better? Interestingly, this passage goes on to say that doers of the Law will be justified before God.

Sticky Passage #2

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

We assume here, too. We say,” the Law speaks to those under the Law. That’s not me. I’m not under the Law, so the Law doesn’t speak to me.” And we forget that the second half of the verse says every mouth and all the world.

Sticky Passage #3

Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

And the knowledge of sin leads to repentance and repentance to faith. By the works of the Law ALONE no flesh will be justified, maybe, but Paul just finished saying that it is not the hearers of the Law that will be justified, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Sticky Passage #4

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Okay, I’ll admit, I don’t get it. How do you reconcile this passage with “faith without works is dead” and “the doers of the Law will be justified?” There must be an alternative answer. Maybe what Paul is trying to get at is that the Law is not a matter of salvation, but a matter of obedience.
Sticky Passage #5

Romans 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Do I think that the Law inspires sin? I highly doubt it, but the Law does make us aware of God’s standard of behavior, which leads very quickly to the realization that we are ungodly. The Law provides a standard by which to discern good/evil, right/wrong, godly/ungodly, just/unjust, light/dark. “Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” The light of the Law illuminates our faults and weaknesses. Maybe that’s why we resist it so adamantly.


Sticky Passage #6

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

This is the passage I get thrown at me more than all the others put together. In order to understand it, you have to look at the whole verse…not just the last half that people throw at me. “Sin shall not be master over you” what does that mean? Well, what is the power of sin that makes it master? 1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; The power of sin is not the Law itself, but rather the penalty of the Law “the wages of sin is death”. Sin is not the master over you because you are not under the penalty of the Law, but under the grace of God through the atoning death of Christ who already paid the penalty of the Law in your place. Therefore…

Sticky Passage #7

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

If you view this passage in light of verse 14, it seems to support the conclusion that I came to. I’ll bet you think I’m making a giant leap, but not if you really look at it. If we were no longer under the moral obligations of the Law, Paul could have said “shall we do as we please” instead of “shall we sin.” Sin specifically refers to the transgression of the established code of morality as set forth by God. In other words, the Law. Another way of stating this verse might be “shall we transgress the Law because we are no longer subject to its penalties?” Blankety-Blank NO! Why not? Because it’s an issue of obedience.

Sticky Passage #8

Romans 7:1-4 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Here, Paul mentions a woman who is married. A woman who is married has entered into a condition (marriage) the effects of which she carries with her and bears fruit in her life. When we were unsaved, we entered into conditions (various sins) the effects of which (the penalties under the Law) we carried with us and bore fruit in our lives. Now we have died to that condition, and have entered into a different condition which we carry with us and bears fruit in our lives. This speaks again to the penalties of the Law, but does not directly nullify the Law as being a moral compass.



Sticky Passage #9

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

I looked up “end” in my Strongs, and here’s the way this passage reads. “for Christ is the telos (goal, limit, conclusion, result, purpose) of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” This leads me to the conclusion that this passage lends support to the idea that “the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ.”



Sticky Passage #10

Romans 10:5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness

I don’t have a problem with this passage in particular. Righteousness is based on God’s grace through faith. None of us is righteous in our own right.. I think the basic principle here is that your righteousness is measured by the one you have faith in. If your faith is in the Law, you are measured by the standards of the Law. If your faith is in Christ, you are measured by the standard of His grace. This is concerning a salvation issue. Where the Law is concerned, I think it is an issue of obedience.


Sticky Passage #11

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
All I’m going to say here is this. By the works of the Law ALONE no flesh will be justified. This still does not invalidate the Law as a moral compass.



Some Statements That Are Often Overlooked

James 4:11 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.

Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

I think that it is interesting that failure to subject oneself to the Law of God is equated here with hostility toward God. If that is true, the Christian Church as a whole has a huge problem.


1 John 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
Here’s what it says in the Amplified: “Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violation of God’s law by transgression or neglect-being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).” It goes on to say in verse 6: “No one who abides in Him[who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him-deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].”



Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, ""YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF


How often has the Law been portrayed as repressive, demanding, legalistic, unrealistic, harsh, vengeful, and oppressive? Has it ever occurred to anyone that within its statutes and framework there is a heart of love? Has it occurred to anyone that in giving the Law, God was giving from His heart? We read these passages and all we see is “I just need to be a good person.” It’s that pride thing again. Me me me…what does that mean for me? Guess what? It’s not about us. It’s about HIM. What do these passages reveal to us about Him? All of His Law can be summed up in one word…love. Does that sound repressive, demanding, legalistic, unrealistic, harsh, vengeful, or oppressive to you?

[schwartmrs]

Without the Law

Here is a list of “sins” that are not explicitly stated in the New Testament, but ARE in the Law.

Incest
Bestiality
Rape
Stealing
Cheating
Kidnapping
Parental abuse
Animal cruelty
Marriage between close family members
Human sacrifice
Fair treatment of concubines
Fair treatment of slaves
Fair treatment of hired workers
Instructions to judges
Judging fairly
Standards of evidence
Standards of testimony
Impartiality
Personal injury law
Determining fault
Assigning values
Criminal law
Penalties for capital crimes
Manslaughter laws
Family law
Determining prior chastity after a marriage
Determining guilt or innocence in suspected adultery cases
Property rights
Enforcing sabbatical years
Adjudicating redemption of people or property
Interpreting inheritance laws

Our own legal system closely resembles the Torah. Can you even imagine a world where these laws did not exist? It would be a world of cruelty. Our world needs God’s Law…it always did.

[ShirChadash]

I just wanted to offer another Scripture for your "Future of the Law" section:


Zechariah 14:16-16 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.





:clap:

[schwartmrs]

Thanks, Zem! I'll add that to the original doc!!

Shade

[EchadHashem]

THE LAW BEFORE SINAI



I believe so.

Beresheit 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, mitzvah, chuqqah, and Torah.

Shalom.

[visionary]

In Leviticus 16 we read about the Tabernacle ritual for Yom Kippur. In that passage we see an intersection of three holies. On the Day of Atonement, the Holiest man in the world (the High Priest of Israel) goes into the Holiest Place in the world (the holy of holies) on the Holiest Day of the year (the day of Yom Kippur).

The Holy of Holies was never entered except for this one day out of the entire year. In the Holy of Holies was the Ark of the Covenant and enthroned between the Cherubim on the Ark was the manifest presence of God. God was in that room! Somehow the Almighty, Infinite God, the King of Universe himself had taken up residence inside that room. To enter was to literally be in the presence of God. Once a year, on the holiest day of the year, the holiest man in the world had to enter the holiest place in the world. He had to enter into the presence of the Holy, Holy, Holy, L-RD of Hosts.

In the Holy of Holies

He had to enter in order to make atonement for Israel, for the Holy of Holies, for the Tabernacle and for the altar. Because these things were continually in the presence of God, they needed to be atoned for. Without covering they could not remain in the Presence of God.

Before entering the Holy of Holies, the High Priest immersed himself and put on simple, white, linen garments. Then with two handfuls of incense and glowing coals from the altar, he entered. He effected atonement for Israel and the Tabernacle through a complex series of blood rituals and sin offerings (see Leviticus 16). In these rituals, he carried the blood of the sin offerings into the Holy of Holies and splashed it seven times on the Ark of the Covenant, then 7 times on the curtain which divided the Holy of Holies from the rest of the Tabernacle and finally seven times on the altar of incense which stood before the curtain. These rituals were intended to provide the necessary covering for the Tabernacle and for Israel.

Just a the blood was necessary for covering, when the death plaque was passing through Egypt, so here it is again. All sins that are not covered by the blood of Jesus are condemned. Jude 4 It is only be the blood of Jesus that we are cleansed of sin, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling , and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy " Jude 24

Take a look ...the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God" Rev 15:8 and the similarity found in 1King 8:11 "because of the cloud for the glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord."...significant is its relationship.

[visionary]

The value of the fall feasts
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Day of Atonement is the Holiest day of the Biblical year. It is a day of intense prayer, fasting and calling out to God for mercy and grace. It is a day for doing business with God. It is a day for coming face to face with God.

Judgment Day

Day of Atonement comes just ten days after Feast of Trumpets. Ten days prior to Day of Atonement, the trumpets or shofar are blown as a warning that a period of judgment has begun.

According to Jewish tradition, the Gates of heaven swing open, the Heavenly Court is convened, the Books of Judgement opened, the heavenly ledgers are scrutinized on the feast of trumpets.

When you look at the Book of Revelation and the trumpets, starting at chapter 8 you find that it all starts with "silence in heaven about the space of half an hour, the court (altar, golden censer, and incense (the prayer of all the saints)), and judgements handed out one trumpet blast at a time.

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake and great hail." Rev 11:19

The ten days end with the conclusion of the Day of Atonement. On Day of Atonement, the judgment is sealed. The books are closed. The gavel falls. Every human being is inscribed either in the book of life or the book of death. One last, long trumpet or shofar sounds at the end of the day as the gates of heaven swing shut and close.

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." Rev 15:1 "and no man will be able to enter into the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled."

There were two scapegoats brought before the temple, one was for the cleansing of the temple of dealing with sin once and for all, which is what Jesus is going to finally accomplish. Heb 12:2 The other was for taking out to the wilderness, which is like Satan when he gets cast into the bottomless pit, since that is what the Jews did with the goat in throwing over the cliff. Rev 20:3

As Paul said to the Romans "He is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that if the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom 2:29 It takes a spiritual jew in heart and spirit to understand the Jewish God (God, the Father) and King of the Jews (Jesus) and (Holy Spirit) the who, what, and why they do the things they do and say.

[simchat_torah]

Beresheit 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, mitzvah, chuqqah, and Torah.

Omein.

And Noach knew clean from unclean.

[ShirChadash]

Amen. Cain and Abel knew there was a wrong way to bring sacrifice... which means there was a right way given to them. G-d speaks to Cain indicating Cain knew the appropriate sacrifice and chose not to obey.


Genesis 4:3-5
3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell. 6 So the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

[visionary]

Do you know what it takes to make a seal? It takes the TITLE, THE AUTHORITY, and THE TERRITORY. Did you know that it is needed for all laws to come to pass to be signed and sealed? Did you know that the Law of God is signed sealed and delivered?

Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy. ........For in six days the Lord (TITLE) made (THE AUTHORITY) heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed (Signed) the sabbath day, and hallowed it (SEALED).

[mbams]

Here is a list of “sins” that are not explicitly stated in the New Testament, but ARE in the Law.

I am a little confused. Is this list not stated explicitly, or are not stated specifically that they are "sin" or "law"?

[schwartmrs]

Mbams,

My point here is that each of these things is addressed in the Torah (Law), and dealt with...however, they are not found in the New Testament...the implication is that if a person were to "throw out" the Torah, then there would be no basis for moral judgment on these issues...in other words, rape is sin...but only the Torah says that...if you were to live by the New Testament alone (as many profess to do) then rape is not a sin...see the problem? Personally, I prefer a world where rape is still wrong.

Blessings,

Shade

[mbams]

Oh ok, thank you shade. That makes sense. I don't know why didn't click the first time through.

[schwartmrs]

Not that I'm anxious to have my little "position paper" shredded, I would like some commentary from the "peanut gallery"....for instance..

Is it thorough?

Did I forget anything?

I want it to be airtight....is it?

Is my "doctrine" on target?

I am planning on using this as a "seminary" paper. Grade me!

Blessings,

Shade

[debi b]

Can you clarify what you mean by "we are not subject to the penalties of the law".

[schwartmrs]

Sure! and thank you for pointing that out...I will adjust the original document, as well.


The principle goes like this....sin of any kind, always results in death of some kind.

A study of the penalties under the Law will show that there were 2 principle consequences of sin...execution, or excommunication. Execution resulted in immediate, physical death...excommunication resulted in a slower, spiritual death because if you were "cut off" from the nation, you could not approach the Temple to offer sacrifices for your sins...thus, you died in your sins with no means of atonement.

We are no longer under these penalties, because Yeshua died for us...in our place...it is as if we, personally, died...therefore, we can always repent, we can always "come into His presence"...He took our penalty upon Himself, and paid it for us.

That's what Paul means by "I have died to sin that I might be made alive in Christ." As far as the Law is concerned, we have died. Therefore, we are no longer subject to that consequence.

Blessings,

Shade

[schwartmrs]

One other thing...this is aside from the sacrificial system, which is really a matter of repentance...let's not equate the sacrificial system with "penalty"...if you want to equate the sacrificial system with a more familiar term, we should equate it with terms like...worship...fellowship...repentance...

Blessings,

Shade

[qhane]

Would you be able to point in the direction of website, or ? to define the term "works of the law"

[debi b]

Is there a specific verse you are referring to? Sometimes the exact same words are used, but based on context it can be referring to different things.

[torahlife]

qhane,

Please let us know the context of the phrase "works of the law". Are you referring to torah or the traditional NT church interpretation. It really does make a difference.

torahlife

[JewishHeart]

good article shwartz

[Dominus Fidelis]

I want it to be airtight....is it?


You might want to discuss Matthew 16:18-19 and what it means when the Lord gave Peter and the Apostles the power to bind and loose.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, the term "binding and loosing" means "forbidding and permitting." This referred to the administration of the Church in order to determine events such as fasting days and other religious obligations.

:)

[Sephania]

That would open a whole other can of worms regarding the Truly authorized Beit Din which we don't believe is in existence today.

[Dominus Fidelis]

That would open a whole other can of worms regarding the Truly authorized Beit Din which we don't believe is in existence today.


:scratch:

[visionary]

Laws are not of themselves suppose to be oppressive nor harmful to people. It is the abuse of good laws by men when they misuse laws to oppress people that is bad. Traffic laws, for example, make you stop and go at various intersections. Speed limits prohibit you from going faster than you physically can. Do traffic laws prevent you from going where you want to go? Of course not. They are intended to get you there safely. When you and your neighbors obey the traffic laws, then we go about our travels safely without harming one another.

What is the difference in keeping the commandments of God and obeying the traffic laws? Both are intended and accomplish the same things. When you and your neighbors obey the commandments of God, you live safely without harming one another.

Look at how any law can be abused. How would you feel if a policeman gave you a ticket for stopping two inches beyond the stop sign? ( you failed to stop in front of the sign.) How would you feel if the speeding ticket was for two miles an hour faster than the posted speed because you were going downhill? These are examples of abusing the laws and being legalistic and putting people under bondage. A reasonal being and appropriate policeman or judge would understand the purpose of the traffic law and your intent to obey, and there you find grace.

Look at the expections to the traffic laws. Is a policeman or fireman guilty of breaking the traffic laws when he travels faster than the posted speed limit with his lights and sirens on, going to an emergency? Of course not. Is he violating God's commandments when He does his work on the Sabbath? Of course not. The Commandments of God are not restrictive and prohibitive for the things of life either. Any reasonable person can understand the rationale for them. The commandment of the Sabbath does not keep a policeman, a fireman, nor a doctor from doing their jobs. Nor does it exclude and prohibit you from delivering an ox from a ditch. The Messiah did not break the Sabbath; He did good (healed) on the Sabbath. Should He have waited until another day, like the Pharisees argued?

Who told you that Jesus broke the Sabbath and or did away with it? Does the fireman do away with the speed limit laws because he goes faster than the posted speed to put out a fire? Doing good is never prohibited or a process that does away with the commandments of God. The commandments of God are for life and freedom!

So, how did we get the idea that obeying the commandments of God was being legalistic and bondage? Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments.

When your neighbor refuses to obey the law (either in defiance or ignorance) he is called a "lawbreaker" or an "unlawful person". When a fellow believer refuses to obey the Lord (either in defiance or out of ignorance of His commandments) Shouldn't we refer them as being disobedient to the Lord?
1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,...

When did we get the idea that disregarding the commandments of God and teaching others to disregard the commandments of God was the measure of righteousness? The secret to our success in the race that is before every believer depends on how well we know the truth. Ezekiel 44:5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary. Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. It is a good thing that there is this last warning to the world before the Lord returns to gather His Children of His Kingdom.

What teaching replaced common sense and doing right? Proverbs 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. 2 Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

It surely was not the coming of the Messiah and His grace. Who taught us that the grace of God was a replacement for the ten commandments? Psalm 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?

The idea that keeping the "teaching" of God is somehow legalistic and bondage originates from the serpent in the garden. Are we not wise enough to know that the purpose of the statement of satan works best when it is to mix a lie with truth?

Keeping God's law is the basis for freedom and blessing. Psalm 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. Learning and obeying the teaching (Torah) of God is essential to spiritual life.
Psalm 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[debi b]

I think that it is truly tragic that many today seem to think that "liberty" is freedom from law (Torah).

[ShirChadash]

Bump :)

[MyLittleWonders]

Bumping it again because I am too tired to read it all tonight and it has some good info! ;)

[MyZz]

Thanks for bumping it up..great thread :amen:

[plum]

awesome thread! gonna download it

aw darn! it won't let me open the .rtf file it downloads as... why doesn't it DL as text? grr. and i get a database error when i try to view a printable version. :sick: :cry: :eek: :( :sigh: :help: :help:

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

First I would like to say Baruch HaShem,
Secondly Very Good at putting sense into why we should look to Torah for our LIFE in this world since after all we are still here in the flesh. We have yet to be caught up :groupray:
I will have to read and study your document and it will take a while :help: :bow:
Seek and you shall Find. Ask and you will receive.
Here is the Link to a post (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=14791250&postcount=1)I posted on a book I was just given yesterday and see that you might be interested in checking this out for it shows much on the Health part of Torah and many other aspects of Torah as well with todays science and knowledge gathered by a Believer in Yeshua HaMashiach.

Shalom,

Tag

[Sephania]

I have listed next to your list the scriptures in blue and what is in red is from the scripture at the bottom of this page.

Without the Law

Here is a list of “sins” that are not explicitly stated in the New Testament, but ARE in the Law.

Incest - I think this is the same as

Marriage between close family members ----1Cor 5:1 It is actually being reported that there is sexual sin among you, and it is sexual sin of a kind that is condemned even by pagans-a man is living with his stepmother!


Bestiality - 1 Corin15:39
Rape
Stealing
Cheating
Kidnapping
Parental abuse------Matthew 15:4-6
Animal cruelty - 1Corinthians 9:9


Human sacrifice -- Romans 12:1
Fair treatment of concubines
Fair treatment of slaves
Fair treatment of hired workers
Instructions to judges
Judging fairly
Standards of evidence
Standards of testimony
Impartiality
Personal injury law
Determining fault
Assigning values
Criminal law
Penalties for capital crimes
Manslaughter laws
Family law
Determining prior chastity after a marriage
Determining guilt or innocence in suspected adultery cases
Property rights
Enforcing sabbatical years
Adjudicating redemption of people or property
Interpreting inheritance laws

Our own legal system closely resembles the Torah. Can you even imagine a world where these laws did not exist? It would be a world of cruelty. Our world needs God’s Law…it always did.

1 Corinthians 6: ( I have highlighted all the laws it addresses in red in your list above)


1 How dare one of you with a complaint against another go to court before pagan judges and not before God's people? 2 Don't you know that God's people are going to judge the universe? If you are going to judge the universe, are you incompetent to judge these minor matters? 3 Don't you know that we will judge angels, not to mention affairs of everyday life? 4 So if you require judgments about matters of everyday life, why do you put them in front of men who have no standing in the Messianic Community? 5 I say, shame on you! Can it be that there isn't one person among you wise enough to be able to settle a dispute between brothers? 6 Instead, a brother brings a lawsuit against another brother, and that before unbelievers! 7 Actually, if you are bringing lawsuits against each other, it is already a defeat for you. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves wrong and cheat; and you do it to your own brothers! 9 Don't you know that unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't delude yourselves - people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than their spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality, 10 who steal, who are greedy, who get drunk, who assail people with contemptuous language, who rob - none of them will share in the Kingdom of God.

[schwartmrs]

I'm going to update and repost this soon. I think I need to reword some things for clarity. As to what you are addressing, Z...there are quite a few passages of scripture that go along with what you are saying...the golden rule, for one. My goal was to address the position of many churches who state that they are "NT only" churches. A "NT only" position is an impossible position to uphold because the specific instructions as to HOW to judge fairly, HOW to be holy and HOW to know sin from obedience are not contained in the NT...at least, not the full set. What I was trying to point out is that many of the "morals" that we rely on as civilized human beings are contained in the Torah, but not in the NT. Therefore, whether they were aware of it or not, a "NT only" church can never truly be "NT only" in the strict sense.

As far as the incest issue, I was thinking more of relations between blood relatives. I was aware of the stepmother example that you quoted, but I have not found any direct injuction against relations with blood relatives contained in the NT...only in the Law is such given specifically.

[jontinoregon]

Visionary wrote a comparison of God's law and the speed laws. Just a note of interest, in traffic law there is what is called the 'basic speed law' and it is pretty much universal it goes something like 'no person shall travel at speeds greater than is reasonable and safe under the existing conditions'. All of the speed laws stem from that basic law. Then folks examine what is reasonable and prudent in different conditions ie. school zones, residential areas, freeways etc. and make additional halacha to fit those conditions.

It would be great if all drivers could evaluate the safety in each condition and faithfully adjust their speed so they were 'reasonable and safe' but we know that we are prone to push and even disregard what is right in favor of what is convenient or desirable. So cities and states set limits beyond which it is a violation to pass based on their assessment of 'reasonable and safe'. Most officers provide ample leeway before they take enforcement action. Unless there is a pinpointed problem that is takng lives or causing a substantial amount of damage, then they tend to be more stringent in their enforcement.

In comparison, the 'basic speed law' can be further analogized to the greatest commandment 'love God' and the second, 'love your neighbor', and, like the speed laws, on those two laws rest all the law and the prophets. Father doesn't capriciously make laws just to see if we will keep them (here the analogy breaks a bit, people sometimes do) but they are based on the 'basic Torah laws' and are for our good, based on what Father knows is 'reasonable and safe' for our life here. Those areas Father knows are problems and will cause loss are dealt with more severely and in more detail.

As a side note, it is interesting that the laws of Sabbath and coveting/lusting contain a great deal more detail than the law against murder. Hmmmmm.:scratch:

[visionary]

I can understand the sabbath laws getting a harsher dealing as it pertains to a time which He has set aside for a rest for His people. Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. How can the Lord seal the law among His disciples? It is the sabbath. It is the place in the law where you find His Title, His authority, and His territory [the three parts to a seal], which every law needs in order to be put into effect. Es 8:8 You should issue a decree in the king's name for whatever you want concerning the Jews, and seal it with the king's signet ring; because a decree written in the king's name and sealed with the king's ring can't be rescinded by anyone." So I believe that it is the key. 2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

One other thing...this is aside from the sacrificial system, which is really a matter of repentance...let's not equate the sacrificial system with "penalty"...if you want to equate the sacrificial system with a more familiar term, we should equate it with terms like...worship...fellowship...repentance...

Blessings,

Shade

Shalom schwartmrs,

Here is a term that really fits, sharing a meal together with our Father.

Shalom,

Tag

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Shalom,

Here is a video I found that really moves me :clap: :

Infinite Wisdom
(http://www.chabad.org/article.asp?AID=141139)The Torah... A Mitzvah that Unifies and Informs
G-d, who formed and created man and all that exists, shares His wisdom, understanding and knowledge with us through the Torah, enabling us to maximize our potential and fulfill our life's purpose.

Just click on Infinite Wisdom above to watch the video.:groupray:

Baruch HaShem,:thumbsup:

Tag

[ShirChadash]

*bump*

Thought this might be a good thread to bump right about now.

[ShirChadash]

I can understand the sabbath laws getting a harsher dealing as it pertains to a time which He has set aside for a rest for His people. How can the Lord seal the law among His disciples? It is the sabbath. It is the place in the law where you find His Title, His authority, and His territory [the three parts to a seal], which every law needs in order to be put into effect. So I believe that it is the key.

Excellent post, Vis!

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

bump once again

[visionary]

Torah is the path of righteousness.

[By Grace]

Shade, have you updated your original article with all the feedback you've gotten here? I would love to have a copy, as well as information on how to credit you if I send copies to friends/family, whenever the opportunity may present itself.

Todah,

[schwartmrs]

Sorry, I've been caught up with family matters of late...I haven't updated yet, but I am currently working on it.... ;)

[plum]

i would also love to see the article revisited when you have the time. No pressure though! Be blessed abundantly in your family

[Amethyst]

Just wanted to let you know, as another Messianic, that I found some good nuggets of truth in your offering.

[plum]

BUMPITY BUMP BUMP... look at threads go! *sings*



bumpity bump bump....

I though that our forum could get a lot out of this wonderful thread again.

[MattyJames]

Firstly I must give you all a great big THANKYA! It is good to know that my family is not the only one that thinks these things. I am encouraged by what I have read. May HaShem bless you all in your Journey.

One thing though,

Sticky Passage #4

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Okay, I’ll admit, I don’t get it. How do you reconcile this passage with “faith without works is dead” and “the doers of the Law will be justified?” There must be an alternative answer. Maybe what Paul is trying to get at is that the Law is not a matter of salvation, but a matter of obedience.

You already have the answer, IMHO. What are the works of the Law? To shed light on sin. Therefore, just because one is made aware of their sin, does that mean that they are saved?? Of course not, but ' the Doers of the Law shall be justified in his sight.'

This is how I see it on first apperance. In another light;
Many Chiristians see that they are saved because they are Christian, afterall, there Gods children...:doh:; not contemplating that it is the Fruits/ Works of there faith that prove their conversion. So likewise, Just because one is a Jew, who has their confidence in the Law, doesn't mean that they are saved. Romans 2:17-29. Read this in the context of my above statements and see what you think.

Therefore, in Conclusion, 'apart from the works of the law' could be interpreted as the Gentile believers...maybe.

Just some thoughts. Once again, thanks all for the thread. It had been very encourageing.

Matt James

[visionary]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MattyJames again.

well said..so I tried to rep you

[MattyJames]

Hi all...I am reall confused about this whole rep thing. What do you mean by 'you must spread some reputation around before giving it to MattyJames again'.

Also...what do you all mean when you go Bump?? Bump what or into what??

Sincerly Confused,

Matt James

[visionary]

Just think for a moment....Let's suppose that there is nothing but the new testament with all old testament torah teachings removed.... What you have left is a few vague feel good comments.

Think about it..... Any time definition for sin is needed and when trying to understand what God wants... Old testament scriptures especially those laws given out at Mout Sinai are pulled out and used as references.

The role of Torah is to help man understand how God thinks and relates to issues, and how God would like us to think regarding those same issues. Now do not go and take that statement outside the light and spirit in which Yeshua presented.

[MattyJames]

Just think for a moment....Let's suppose that there is nothing but the new testament with all old testament torah teachings removed.... What you have left is a few vague feel good comments.

Think about it..... Any time definition for sin is needed and when trying to understand what God wants... Old testament scriptures especially those laws given out at Mout Sinai are pulled out and used as references.

The role of Torah is to help man understand how God thinks and relates to issues, and how God would like us to think regarding those same issues. Now do not go and take that statement outside the light and spirit in which Yeshua presented.

Yes Vis, exactly!

Like I read recently, 'Child abuse and Pedaphilea are not mentioned in NT writings. Therefore we must refer to the OT (Torah) to deal with such issues.'

Shame that more aren't aware of such things.

Matt James

[plum]

Hi all...I am reall confused about this whole rep thing. What do you mean by 'you must spread some reputation around before giving it to MattyJames again'.

Also...what do you all mean when you go Bump?? Bump what or into what??

Sincerly Confused,

Matt James

^_^ PMd you

[Tishri1]

MOD HAT ON

This area of CF is for Menbers of the MJ Congregation ONLY to teach and answer questions and debate with other MJ's ...Those who carry other ICONS (other than the Torah Scroll), MAY NOT teach, answer questions or debate in this area, PERIOD.

Please go to the appropriate areas where ALL may engage in teaching, answering questions and debating and post over there.

Those of other Icons may post fellowship, post questions, and read only while visiting our area.

Thank You for abiding by the rules...

Mod Hat OFF

[MattyJames]

^_^ PMd you

:doh: thanks LOL

MJ

[stranger]

well done, another thread successfully killed off in the name of justice or something