The Purpose Driven Life

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Has anyone read this book. Personally, I am learly of anything that is as popular as this book. However, reading the inside of the jacket made me think that it might be worth the read.

Anyone read this or know anything about the book?

[LuxPerpetua]

I've heard great things about it, but I haven't read it. Like you, I tend to be skeptical. I also don't think I need a human author to tell me how to give my life purpose or live a good, Christian lifestyle since God does a really good job of that in the Bible. This is just my take. I don't think I'm going to purchase this book for these reasons.

[Lotar]

I've heard it has a lot of bad theology in it. I'll try to find the article I read about it yesterday.

[Momzilla]

I read it with my bible study group, and found much in it that was valuable (unlike "The Prayer of Jabez", which was awful! :x ). I agree that there may be some questionable theology, but I don't recall anything outright heretical.

[ByzantineDixie]

Personally, I am learly of anything that is as popular as this book.

That is probably the number one reason why those that do not like the book, do not like the book.

I have listen to the unabridged version on audio tape. We are doing this study with a group from work and I am participating with another group of women from my church doing the study. Unfortunately...not all of the Baptist theology works for us Lutherans so some massaging is done but the underlying principles are excellent. There is some weighty stuff in the book...starting with the very first line "It's not about you."

I personally like what I term "applied Christianity" studies...and this is definitely one. It really puts the Christian life into perspective--and the outcome is very challenging, but exciting!

But as they say...YMMV (your mileage may vary).

God bless you in your studies!

Rose

[Lotar]

Here it is: http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/purpose.htm

The biggest problem people have with it is the author constantly pushing synergism.

[Yitzchak]

I have not read the book. But I attended a church where they were using the book as a model for their churches future. The church said that one of the key issues was getting as close to 100% of the church to participate rather than having 20% of the church involved and the rest spectators. My impression was that it was the practical value and motivational value of the book that inspired the church to use it as a model. The theology was never discussed and I got the impression that it is not a book on theology directly at least.

[eldermike]

It's a great book IMO. It's very good study for a small group setting.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Let me explain a little more of why I am learly of this book.

Of the 3 people that have told me what a great book this is, two of them are of questionable character. Please understand I am not trying to be judgemental, I believe that a person's character is an important factor. These two have some very worldly values so I am learly of something that they embrace. From this thinking, I reason within the spririt that this book cannot teach a hard, biblical theology/lifestyle or worldly people would not accept it.

[LuxPerpetua]

Well, since it seems like you are well-grounded in Biblical theology and what it means to "walk the walk" of Christianity, you could always read a chapter or two of this book and then re-evaluate.

I gather from the other responses that a Baptist wrote this book, and in general, Baptists tend to be very strict in regard to living a moral, Christian lifestyle. I don't think a good Baptist (or any good Christian) would ever promote worldly values, or at least knowingly.

[Lotar]

Since you are Reformed, I would recommend against the book. It fails to properly distinguish between the law and gospel, and is as Arminian as it can get. It focuses on what you do for Christ, instead of the the other way around. There's a push in the LCMS to get the churches to stop using the book.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Since you are Reformed, I would recommend against the book. It fails to properly distinguish between the law and gospel, and is as Arminian as it can get. It focuses on what you do for Christ, instead of the the other way around. There's a push in the LCMS to get the churches to stop using the book.

That is what I have assumed. I'll be reading your article later when I've enough time to devote to it. I may still read a bit of the book just so that I know what it is about and can perhaps dissuade others from reading it, if they ask my advice.

Yet another thing that makes me leary of the book would be the people on the back of the book qouting how much they like it. I don't know too much about Billy Graham, but Max Lucado and Lee Strobel teach a very Arminiest (SP?) point of view.

[eldermike]

I have witnessed several changed lives due to Rick Warrens books. I have read them all. My comments are based on reading them. Did I say i read them, I hope so.

If my Theology was fragile and I had a tendency to change it based on reading books, I would not read this one. But, I would not read any others as well.

[citygirl]

[QUOTE=Lotar]Since you are Reformed, I would recommend against the book. [QUOTE]

I am not reformed, but I attend a reformed church, and all of our small groups are reading this book right now.

I read part of the article that was against the book, and I am amazed at how Christians are spending their time and energy tearing down other Christians. It reminds me of the verses in the gosples where someone sayd that Jesus drives out demons by beelzebub and then Jesus says that if a kingdom is divided against itself it cannot stand.

Maybe people are renewing their lives because of this book - how can it be full of poison??????????????????????????????????

I recommend you read it for yourself and form your own opinion about it.

[ByzantineDixie]

There's a push in the LCMS to get the churches to stop using the book.

Right, :rolleyes: they would rather us plow through that dry as bones, lifeless stuff from CPH. Lotar, ya know I love you but one of the things the LCMS does better than any denomination around is pick things apart and find the flaws--we even waste precious time and money picking each other apart (not talking you and I but at the synod level).

This study has value, people are reading it and realizing...the world is not their home. We are strangers in a strange land and God is calling us to live like it.

The statement that it takes the focus off Christ and puts it one is is distorted. It puts the focus on our sin!!! Makes us realize we are not living according to God's plan and helps us recognize what God's plan is. I think that deserves some focus.

I really wish you could have made a recommendation based on your own experience rather than on relying on the comments on the guys from Fort Wayne. Maybe yours would have been the same comments, but maybe you would have seen in the study what I have seen, what my professor has seen, what our DCE has seen.....etc.

Love y'all

Rose

[Lotar]

It is our responsibility to defend our church against false doctrine, so I commend the doctors and reverends for making their stand.

[ByzantineDixie]

removed duplicate post

[Lotar]

Rose,

I have read parts of it and it is the same nonsense that I constantly hear from my parents' church. Perhaps it will "inspire" some Christians, I'm sure it will, but I have seen first hand the consiquences of these false doctrines. If you like it and wish to read it, then that is your choice to do so, but the majority of the contents of that book are contrary to my beliefs.

[CaptainMatt]

Would this be a good book for some Non-Christian that is close to accepting Christ?

[eldermike]

Would this be a good book for some Non-Christian that is close to accepting Christ?
Matt, it's my opinion that this book is for Christians that are close to submitting to Christ. It's about giving up ownership of you, to God.

[CaptainMatt]

Matt, it's my opinion that this book is for Christians that are close to submitting to Christ. It's about giving up ownership of you, to God.


Thanks ElderMike. Since were talking about it.. What would be a good book to offer to a Non-Christian that is Close to accepting Christ in their life...?

[CaptainMatt]

Matt, it's my opinion that this book is for Christians that are close to submitting to Christ. It's about giving up ownership of you, to God.

Okay.. Thanks Eldermike! Since where on the Topic what would you say is a good book for a non-Christian that is close to accepting Christ?

[TSIBHOD]

I have almost finished the book, and I am in a teen group that is going over it. I agree that it's theology might not always be the strongest. If you want a theological bulwark on Christian living, try The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee -- an all-time classic there.

I find Warren's book to be beneficial because it focuses on practical things that many people forget about. I categorize this as an inspirational book. I have learned some good points from it. So maybe everything in it is not good, but there is some beneficial stuff in there, and I think it is worth a read.

There may be some objections to his emphasis of free will. He says we have to choose if we are going to serve God with our lives or serve ourselves. You may believe that God quickens some to Himself and not others, so that their choices are invariable, but there is no denial of their choices. To deny that we choose whom to serve is to be directly contradictory to scripture (Joshua 24:15; Romans 6:13-16). So we have a choice, but the question is whether or not God has so manipulated our environments that our choices are really up to Him since He controls all the details.

Anyway, if you don't like the doctrine of free will, that's fine, your choice. But I think that this book is mostly about encouraging people to be more involved with God in their daily lives; to take their responsibility to serve God seriously, and not shrug it off; to be involved in their churches and have fellowship with the brethren; and to reach the world for Christ. I think that we can agree that these are good things, and they are the main point of what this book expounds, and it does it in a fine motivitional way. If you have to ignore parts of it because they aren't good, then do so, but don't ignore the whole thing.

I've read better books, but the fact that I'm even reading it all the way through means that it is a good book. I don't read bad books.

[calgal]

Rose,

I have read parts of it and it is the same nonsense that I constantly hear from my parents' church. Perhaps it will "inspire" some Christians, I'm sure it will, but I have seen first hand the consiquences of these false doctrines. If you like it and wish to read it, then that is your choice to do so, but the majority of the contents of that book are contrary to my beliefs.
I agree with you Lotar. The book is Christianity Lite and is dangerous at best to a new believer. I find it to be easy believeism and the dangers are that the PDL could and is being used instead of scripture.

[NewCreation517]

"hey- I have not read the book but in my college sunday school class our leader goes over a chapter of the book each week and I am currently filling out the Purpose Driven Life journal. I find that it's very motivational and brings me to a lot of good realizations. For example- one entry asks the question- "what is one thing I should stop doing today and one thing I should start doing" and it also puts your life into perspective as to why we're alive and why we should be seperate from the world. A lot of the stuff makes you think- BUT considering I haven't actually read the book in it's entirety- my word doesnt mean much (heh). But- many people have recommended me this book including the Youth Pastor at my church."<--- what i was planning on writing before i read the little conflict on whether it goes against personal beliefs. May I ask- what exactly in the book goes against your beliefs? I'm just curious.
Love and Pickles,
Hayley

[Flynmonkie]

Would this be a good book for some Non-Christian that is close to accepting Christ?
How about the Bible?;) Great for starters!!:hug:
I have to say that I have not read any one book that I think I would reccomend other than the obvious. However, "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel, is a good read. He is a journalist with a Law degree, lifelong athiest. His wife became a Christian, and as he puts it - to shut her up...he decided to take on the "case" to disprove the Bible. Instead, he proved it to himself! Needless to say, now he is a faithful Christian! I really enjoy the books! :)

I have yet to read the purpose driven life, but have heard great things about it, and the Prayer of Jabez.

[MParedon]

I have a Southern Baptist Fundamentalist Friend. I hear that this book is popular. Would it be a good idea to give it to her as a present? I've never read the book myself and as you can see I'm Catholic so I probably wouldn't want to read something with different doctrine or beliefs. But she is going through a tough time right now, and I want to give her something hopeful and inspiring that she can relate to. Would this book be right for her or would it be offensive?

[Lotar]

<--- what i was planning on writing before i read the little conflict on whether it goes against personal beliefs. May I ask- what exactly in the book goes against your beliefs? I'm just curious.
Love and Pickles,
Hayley
One of the main objections is to the synergism. The book constantly talks about what you do for God, about you choosing Him, etc. It is constantly talking about if you do this God will do this.

Then there is the author's inability to properly distinguish between the Law and the Gospel. Saying intimacy with God comes through obedience, etc.


Everything about this book is backwards. It's not about you, it's about Christ. You don't choose Christ, He chooses you. Your relationship with God does not grow with obedience, your obedience grows with your relationship. And so on.

[TSIBHOD]

Lotar, the book may not be always theologically correct. It is good to have books about what God does for us, since that is important for us to know. However, it is also important to know what we should do for God. You may think it puts to much emphasis on us as opposed to God, but I think this is needed. Too often in this generation, when you talk about what God has done and is doing, people enjoy that and think that they don't need to do anything themselves. Thus, people are not involved in their churches, they don't fellowship with the brethren, and they don't live unto Christ rather than unto themselves. People today do not think at all like that Martin Luther quote in your sig.

I think PDL is good as an inspirational book, and is good to encourage a person to reflect on his life and how he could be more devoted to Jesus. If people misuse it, that's too bad, but that doesn't mean it is a bad book. If it has faults, so does just about every book. For a faultless book, read the Bible. If you want to read anything else, you may find mistakes, but if you can derive benefit anyway, it is profitable to be read.

Perhaps the view it presents of God and man is not balanced. I have not noticed this while reading it, perhaps because my view is already balanced fairly well. If Warren presents one side, that just makes me understand that side better. If someone didn't understand God's side, they might have a one-sided view of Christianity. So, perhaps this book is not good for new Christians, at least unless they have a mentor-teacher to balance things out with additional knowledge. But for people who are saved and who think it is enough that they have their devotional time every day and go to church on Sundays, this book can be a fine wake-up call.

[theseed]

Has anyone read this book. Personally, I am learly of anything that is as popular as this book. However, reading the inside of the jacket made me think that it might be worth the read.

Anyone read this or know anything about the book?
The bible is the most popular book there is, and it is a good book too. Don't judge a book based on that. I tell you the truth, The Purpose Driven Life is going to bring a revival around the US, becasue people are going to finally understand what God is all about, and how he wants to use them for His purpose. At the same time, notice that God is doing other great things in the US to bring about revival as well, such as Mel Gibson's latest movie.

[theseed]

I've heard great things about it, but I haven't read it. Like you, I tend to be skeptical. I also don't think I need a human author to tell me how to give my life purpose or live a good, Christian lifestyle since God does a really good job of that in the Bible. This is just my take. I don't think I'm going to purchase this book for these reasons.
Oh brother, :rolleyes:, the book has over 300 scriptural references.

[theseed]

I've heard great things about it, but I haven't read it. Like you, I tend to be skeptical. I also don't think I need a human author to tell me how to give my life purpose or live a good, Christian lifestyle since God does a really good job of that in the Bible. This is just my take. I don't think I'm going to purchase this book for these reasons.
Your right, missions is only one of the five purposes. Your 20% of the way, to understanding God's purpose for your life.

[TSIBHOD]

Yes, hopefully God can use even less-than-perfect tools to bring about revival. That way, He'll get to use His Church.... ;)

[theseed]

I've heard it has a lot of bad theology in it. I'll try to find the article I read about it yesterday.I've read the entire thing, so say that's its bad theolgy only exposes your your lack of knowledge to the book. I tell you the truth, it is no accident that it is now the 2nd most popular book ever sold. The thelogy of the book is as simple and as plain as the head on your body.

[theseed]

very first line "It's not about you."

Yes, many opposed to the book have not read it, but automatically assume that its all about them.

I don't recall anything that blatantly struck me as Baptist.

[Flynmonkie]

Ok Seed, I am sold....I am going to have to buy this and read it...Some days I just wish I could drink in all this through a straw and have all the good stuff be applied immediatly to my heart condition!! There just never seeems to be enough time!!!!!!I have so many other things I have been studying. But this keeps popping up..

[theseed]

Here it is: http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/purpose.htm

The biggest problem people have with it is the author constantly pushing synergism.
I don't recall anything that was synergistic

[theseed]

I have a Southern Baptist Fundamentalist Friend. I hear that this book is popular. Would it be a good idea to give it to her as a present? I've never read the book myself and as you can see I'm Catholic so I probably wouldn't want to read something with different doctrine or beliefs. But she is going through a tough time right now, and I want to give her something hopeful and inspiring that she can relate to. Would this book be right for her or would it be offensive?
It would be a good gift, and it could be used in any church, the God's purpose does not change.

1)God made us for His pleasure (worship)

2)God made us to be set apart, be sanctified, be holy (sanctificiation)

3)God made us to minister to other Christians (ministry)

4)God made us to take the good news of Christ to the whole world (missions)

[J.A.I]

I've heard great things about it, but I haven't read it. Like you, I tend to be skeptical. I also don't think I need a human author to tell me how to give my life purpose or live a good, Christian lifestyle since God does a really good job of that in the Bible. This is just my take. I don't think I'm going to purchase this book for these reasons.

The Bible was written by human authors.

[theseed]

Yes, hopefully God can use even less-than-perfect tools to bring about revival. That way, He'll get to use His Church.... ;)
Yes, the book may not be perfect, but it's not heresy by any stretch of the imaginition. I understand that good works come from sanctification, a process in salvation, not for salvation. Sanctification is the 2nd purpose listed. it says God makes us to be more like Jesus Christ.

[theseed]

Flynnmonkie, It takes 40 days to read the book, if you do it right. It's written to be taken in slowly, its devotional in style. It took me alot longer, but I copied the verses from the back of the index.

[Flynmonkie]

Flynnmonkie, It takes 40 days to read the book, if you do it right. It's written to be taken in slowly, its devotional in style. It took me alot longer, but I copied the verses from the back of the index.
I say wheres the Ark when you need it???????:sigh: :D

Thanks!:rolleyes: I think:confused: :scratch:

[theseed]

I say wheres the Ark when you need it???????:sigh: :D

Thanks!:rolleyes: I think:confused: :scratch:
Lot's of thingks in the bible took 40 days, like the temptation of Jesus.

[theseed]

Another book by Rick Warren is The Purpose Driven Chruch, written about 10 years ago.

[Flynmonkie]

I was referring to drowning:sigh: he he he......But meditation is a very healthy way of looking at it;)

[New Creation]

We have a small church- and all of our home groups are currently reading it. Our pastor recommended this. He read the Purpose Driven Church too. My pastor is no idiot, believe me.

I have to say that it has helped me be more practical about my faith- putting into actual practice more. My man and I read it every day as a devotional and it has been good for both of us. It's been good for the whole church.

I actually plan to read it again because some of the chapters need more reflection than just one day in my opinion.

God bless you!!

[calgal]

Thanks for the feedback but the popularity of the book is not the determining factor for me. It is a lot like the Prayer of Jabez IMO. And I do not care much for either work. But YMMV.

[theseed]

The Bible teaches that God created you with five purposes in mind:


Worship - you were planned for God's pleasure.
Fellowship - you were formed to be part of God's family.
Discipleship - you were created to become like Christ.
Ministry - you were shaped for God's service.
Mission - you were made to tell others about Christ.

www.purposedrivenlife.org (http://www.purposedrivenlife.org)

[wvmtnkid]

I'll just throw in my opinion while I am here. I am reading it now. I am involved with a small study group who is using it. I must say that I have enjoyed it. It has given me alot to think about. No, I haven't agreed with every little idea presented by Rick Warren, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it is heresy.

Alot of the emphasis is on how we can live our life for God, which I don't see is a bad subject to talk about. As Christians, shouldn't that be part of our lives and something we consider and reflect upon? Jesus died for us, shouldn't we want to live for him?

[theseed]

There are things that are blantantly Baptist, for example, at the boottom of page 120, it says that baptim just a symbol.

One must keep in mind that the book is written for Christians and not non Christians, so it say that it emphasizes salvation by works is to err greatly, because the book assumes you are already saved. It spends a small portion describing how you can recieve God's gift of salvtion.

Many criticize the book for being humanistic, becasue it requires believers to take responsibility for what God calls them to do, and it requires obediance on the part of God's reponsibility. It also emphasises the need for Christians to rely on the Holy Spirit to do work for God's kingdom. Ironically, Warren also criticizes pop psychology philophy as well, he writes in his book that he has read many self-help books, including Christian ones on the very subjuct of the purpose of life, and then he goes on to describe how his book is different becasue it focuses on what matters most. No where does he say that we have to look within ourself to find the meaning of life, and says that only the creator of us could tell us that meaning. If anybody is truly seeking their purpose in life they can look to Rick Warren's book to see what the God says in the bible, but without illumination of the Holy Spirit, they won't understand Rick Warren or the Bible. On Saddleback's church website (where Warren is Pastor) they say that the Holy Spirit shows the world thier need for a savior. (www.saddleback.com (http://www.saddleback.com)). If you go to the book looking for Reformed theology or John Calvin, you won't find it. I imagine that he like alot of Baptist pastors don't delve directly into God's election to grace, but emphasize the responsiblity of the Christian which is clearly seen in the bible.

Those of reformed theology people should be the last people to get hung up on free will, because God's soveriegnty and man's responsibilty are best friends, according to Spurgeon. But that does not mean you can agree completely with Warren, but man's responsbility is not something to get hung up one.

When I read the book, I see an emphasis not just on Christians, but on God too. I see the vertical relationship being emphasized over and over again. It would be easy for one to twist that and say that Warren means, "its all about you" when if fact his very first sentence on day 1 is "Its not about you".

[theseed]

Let me explain a little more of why I am learly of this book.

Of the 3 people that have told me what a great book this is, two of them are of questionable character. Please understand I am not trying to be judgemental, I believe that a person's character is an important factor. These two have some very worldly values so I am learly of something that they embrace. From this thinking, I reason within the spririt that this book cannot teach a hard, biblical theology/lifestyle or worldly people would not accept it.
Worldly people accept it because they want to know their purpose in life, like all people. The book is written for a Christian audience though, not for non believers. So, I don't know how lost people get anything out of it.

[ChiRho]

"Alot of the emphasis is on how we can live our life for God, which I don't see is a bad subject to talk about. As Christians, shouldn't that be part of our lives and something we consider and reflect upon? Jesus died for us, shouldn't we want to live for him?"

-wvmtnkid



Well, you are right about what we ought to do, but the Truth is we don't. Even on our best days we are vile sinners. Do you think it wise to contemplate all the greatness we do for God? Yeah, that took a long time. Answer is we do nothing great for God. Christianity is completely what God does for us, not vice versa. Sin is ours. Guilt is ours. Death is ours.

Life is His, reckoned to us, now is ours. His Righteousness covers our bodies of death, until life in this world ends, and then grants to us and for us passage into Heaven. Our sinful flesh remains with us on earth, every single one of us, but the Crucified One stands in our stead at Judgement. We are guilty, but declared innocent by the Judge for the vicarious Atonement made by Christ in His perfect fulfillment of the Law and His perfect Sacrifice. We should be repentant and contrite, not thinking about how we can live for Him. Jesus Christ, lived and died for us. Good works will proceed, undeniably! They are not ours, but His. We are but poor, miserable, sinful mouthpieces tainting the Gospel as best we can. Who can reveal Truth from tongues of deceit and mouths of open graves? Thanks be only to our Triune God!

Praise be to Christ!

I direct anyone to the posts of Lotar for anymore on this subject.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[eldermike]

This morning when you first woke you made your first decision within seconds you were either self dirrected or in touch with God.
Rick Warren is not trying to cause anyone to work for God, He just wants you to have a constant conversation with God. I have read all His books and even most of His newsletters. He has never said one word about working for God. It's about being available to God so God can work through you.

[ChiRho]

This morning when you first woke you made your first decision within seconds you were either self dirrected or in touch with God.
Rick Warren is not trying to cause anyone to work for God, He just wants you to have a constant conversation with God. I have read all His books and even most of His newsletters. He has never said one word about working for God. It's about being available to God so God can work through you.


God makes that decision, not us. We dont make ourselves available, He does.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[MParedon]

One must keep in mind that the book is written for Christians and not non Christians, so it say that it emphasizes salvation by works is to err greatly, because the book assumes you are already saved. It spends a small portion describing how you can recieve God's gift of salvtion.

I didn't want to report this post 'cause I might have read this wrong. Are you insinuating that Churches that emphasize works are non-Christians?

I know that Catholic and Orthodox emphasize works, and I KNOW they are Christian.

*(note- I'm not trying to debate on the issue of works at all)
Anyway, please tell me if I read this wrong.

[Andyman_1970]

Rick Warren is not trying to cause anyone to work for God, He just wants you to have a constant conversation with God.

What's kind of funny, is that is how Jews (and how Jesus would have) prayed, it is like this constant converstation with God all day.

Anyway, I thought the book was good, it has some good "rubber meets the road" concepts to practice.

[wvmtnkid]

Well, you are right about what we ought to do, but the Truth is we don't. Even on our best days we are vile sinners. Do you think it wise to contemplate all the greatness we do for God? Yeah, that took a long time. Answer is we do nothing great for God. Christianity is completely what God does for us, not vice versa. Sin is ours. Guilt is ours. Death is ours.

Your words are very true, ChiRho. I fall short of the glory of God everyday. Nothing I do compares with what Christ has done for me. But I strive to do better everyday. With God's help, I strive to be a better person. I can't do that on my own. I can't even come close. But because I love God and I have accepted His grace made know through Jesus, I want to live my life for Him. I want my life to be a reflection on His love in my heart. Do I always succeed? No. But I try. And I just look at this book as a good resource to helping me lead a better Christian walk.

[eldermike]

God makes that decision, not us. We dont make ourselves available, He does.

I think you have salvation and Christian growth grouped together. We do make decisions, one of those is to pick up our cross and follow Him.

[ChiRho]

I think you have salvation and Christian growth grouped together. We do make decisions, one of those is to pick up our cross and follow Him.


No, I dont. You are speaking of synergistic sanctification, I believe, while I am speaking of monergistic justification. Synergistic sanctification is the belief that man and God cooperate toward sancitification, Lutherans would say God is the sole cause of justification and sancitification. If one believes they cooperate in sanctification then man helps save himself.

Grace and Peace,

ChiRho

[eldermike]

Lutherans would say God is the sole cause of justification and sancitification. If one believes they cooperate in sanctification then man helps save himself.

You are doing your best to make a difference where there is no difference. Rick Warren and I agree that God is the sole cause of everything, not just justification and sancitification but everything. But I still make decisions daily and so do you. God did not type this post, I did. "If a man would come after Me, let him pick up his cross and follow me" It, dosn't say: If I want a man to follow me, I will give him his cross and cause him to carry it.

But what I just said has nothing to do with God's nature and involvment in it. God is in control but man has a "reasonable service" it is for YOU to offer yourself as a living sacrifice to God, it is your reasonable service.

Mike

[theseed]

Lutherans are the some of the last people who should be criticizing others about synergism. They believe that sacraments impart grace and clease away sins, thereby brining salvation. Lutherans believe that one can lose thier salvtion, and in order to un earn salvation, one has to earn it. So in effect, Lutherans say Christians earn thier salvtion through the works of sacraments, as well as other works. Lutheranism is inherently synergistic.

There, I said it, I couldn't bite my tounge anymore. You knew someone was going to bring this us, since mainly Lutherans are saying its synergistic.

[theseed]

I didn't want to report this post 'cause I might have read this wrong. Are you insinuating that Churches that emphasize works are non-Christians?

No, I'm saying that the book is talking about how to live the Christian life, not how to get saved, or enter in a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

I know that Catholic and Orthodox emphasize works, and I KNOW they are Christian.

So does Rick Warren, a Baptist, but he is not emphasizing them for salvtion purposes, he is emphasizing them for God's purpose for the Christian

[Lotar]

You are doing your best to make a difference where there is no difference. Rick Warren and I agree that God is the sole cause of everything, not just justification and sancitification but everything. But I still make decisions daily and so do you. God did not type this post, I did. "If a man would come after Me, let him pick up his cross and follow me" It, dosn't say: If I want a man to follow me, I will give him his cross and cause him to carry it.

But what I just said has nothing to do with God's nature and involvment in it. God is in control but man has a "reasonable service" it is for YOU to offer yourself as a living sacrifice to God, it is your reasonable service.

Mike
You don't understand, there is a big difference. You say that you make that choice, maybe God makes it available to you, but in the end it is you who decides. We say this is not true, if the choice was left up to us we would never choose what is right, it is all God's work.

That is our problem with this book, it's all about YOU making the choice.

[Lotar]

Lutherans are the some of the last people who should be criticizing others about synergism. They believe that sacraments impart grace and clease away sins, thereby brining salvation. Lutherans believe that one can lose thier salvtion, and in order to un earn salvation, one has to earn it. So in effect, Lutherans say Christians earn thier salvtion through the works of sacraments, as well as other works. Lutheranism is inherently synergistic.

There, I said it, I couldn't bite my tounge anymore. You knew someone was going to bring this us, since mainly Lutherans are saying its synergistic.
Perhaps if we thought that the sacraments had anything to do with us and our choices you might have had a point. But we do not.

BTW, there are plenty Calvinists who have a problem with this book aas well.

[Flynmonkie]

You don't understand, there is a big difference. You say that you make that choice, maybe God makes it available to you, but in the end it is you who decides. We say this is not true, if the choice was left up to us we would never choose what is right, it is all God's work.

That is our problem with this book, it's all about YOU making the choice.
I think once you reach a level of maturity of understanding with your faith, you realize this is a given. And when you pick up materials to help guide, and fellowship..it is by no means giving yourself the credit. Just as any book or sermon or whatever you read or hear that helps you with you leading a good christian life. No different than studying the Bible or going to hear a sermon about it. Otherwise none of us should be attending church because God will tell us everything we need to know, he will hold us accountable, and he will be our only source of fellowship. Which we know is not scriptural. It is definatly not scriptural to sit back and not study....we know he does not expect us to walk around like drones waiting for him to pull strings!

Actually,for that matter we should not even be on this message board.;)

Question, Did you make a choice to come to the boards today?? Or was it God that said OK Lotar, time to hit the boards again today..see what I mean?

[allieisme]

Here it is: http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/purpose.htm

The biggest problem people have with it is the author constantly pushing synergism.
This might sound quite dumb with me asking this but what does "pushing synergisn" mean..
I've got the book, have heard nothing but good comes from it, but for me, Its hard getting into

[theseed]

Perhaps if we thought that the sacraments had anything to do with us and our choices you might have had a point. But we do not.


Synergism is salvation by works and faith, therefore Lutheranism is synergistic because of sacraments.

[Lotar]

This might sound quite dumb with me asking this but what does "pushing synergisn" mean..
I've got the book, have heard nothing but good comes from it, but for me, Its hard getting into
Synergism means that God gives you some grace but you have to accept it and work with it. It was the main point of contention between the Evangelical Church (Lutheran and Reformed) and Rome during the Reformation. Now with the present day popularity of decision theology, people are going back to synergism. We preserved pure doctrine with the Reformation only to see Satan slip the synergy back into our churches.

Synergy always pleases the old Adam, it takes the focus off God and puts it on you. It changes it from "I'm saved because Christ gave me faith" to "I'm saved because I put my faith in Christ." Who really did the work here, and who should we be giving the credit?

[Lotar]

Synergism is salvation by works and faith, therefore Lutheranism is synergistic because of sacraments.
You don't have a clue about our understanding of the sacraments.

[theseed]

You don't have a clue about our understanding of the sacraments.
Right, they have nothing to do with forgiveness of sins or grace? I've read the large and small catechims, and I can say it is syngergistic. However, you have not read PDL, so your opinions are based on heresay of others.

[theseed]

Question, Did you make a choice to come to the boards today?? Or was it God that said OK Lotar, time to hit the boards again today..see what I mean?

^_^

[Lotar]

Rigth, they have nothing to do with forgiveness of sins or grace? I've read the large and small catechims, and I can say it is syngergistic. However, you have not read PDL, so your opinions are based on heresay of others.
If you want to discuss the sacraments I'd be happy to do so in another thread. The catechisms are only the most basic understanding of the subject, especially if you read the versions without explaination.

I have not read the entire book, I've read passages, this is true. I attended a Calvary Chapel for nearly 7 years, and I've even heard Rick Warren speak. I've also read similair books that are in the same vain and people compare it to. Point being, I know what it's about and I know the pop-Christianity theology like the back of my hand. I used to even argue for it on this very forum, I believe a few times on the same side as you. I don't have to sit down and read the entire book to voice my objections to it, people argueing for it here only confirm what I am objecting to.

"It's not synergism, it's about you making a choice." :D Come on now...

[theseed]

So Lotar, what about choices? God's requires us to make the right ones. Do you deny this? Do you deny that God does not hold Christians responsible? Look closely at Rev. 2.23, and tell me if choices don't matter.


Revelation 2:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+2:2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on) In context: Revelation 2:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+2:1-3&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on))


Revelation 2:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+2:19&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.


Revelation 2:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+2:23&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Revelation 3:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+3:1&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
"To the angel[ 3:1 Or messenger; also in verses 7 and 14] of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[ 3:1 Or the sevenfold Spirit] of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.


Revelation 3:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+3:8&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

Revelation 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+3:15&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on)
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

[theseed]

"The bible says, 'As the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more" (P. 174; 2 Cor. 3.18)

"Christlikeness is not produced by imitation, but inhabitation" (P.174)

"At least eight times in the New Testament we are told to "make every effort" in our growth (P. 175; Lk 13.24; Romans 14.14; Eph. 4.3; 2 Tim. 2.15; Hb 4.11; Hb 12.14; 2 Pet. 15; 2 Pet. 3.14)


Warren, Rick (2002) Purpose Driven Life. Zondervan: Grand Rapids, MI.

[eldermike]

It changes it from "I'm saved because Christ gave me faith" to "I'm saved because I put my faith in Christ."
But this shows me that you don't know what others here are saying at all. Rick, in all his books, nor I or anyone here is saying they are saved because we put our faith in Christ. Show me where?

[theseed]

ANTINOMY?



(WHAT IS THAT??)



Here is one. Acts 2:23 . . .



"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God --

100% Sovereignty of GOD

ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain"

100% Human Responsibility

All the devils in Hell or men on earth could not keep Jesus from the Cross - Why?

Because it was determined by the counsel and foreknowledge of God - that is

100% Divine Sovereignty

Yet man was charged with the murder of Christ "ye by wicked hands have crucified and slain" that is --

100% Human Responsibility

Both of these are equally true - they are both in the Bible - and we have no trouble in our minds when we consider them separately, BUT, we cannot ( in our minds) put them together.

DON'T TRY - they are Friends and do not need to be reconciled by us. We cannot reconcile DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY and HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY, but God will do what we cannot do.

The ANTINOMY is only with us - not with God.

http://www.founders.org/library/reis1/reis.html

[Lotar]

"Christlikeness is not produced by imitation, but inhabitation" (P.174)
This I agree with, but then he goes on to say,

We allow Christ to live through us. The Bible says, "For this is the secret, Christ lives in you." How does this happen in real life? Through the choices we make. We choose to do the right thing in situations and then trust God’s Spirit to give us His power and His love and His faith and wisdom to do it. Since God’s Spirit lives inside of us, these things are always available for the asking.
On the next page he even says,
God waits for you to act first. How about when he says this,
It’s time to settle this issue. Who are you gonna live for, yourself or God? You may hesitate wondering whether you have the strength to live for God. Don’t worry! God will give you what you need if you’ll just make the choice to live for Him. What foolishness is this!

So Lotar, what about choices? God's requires us to make the right ones. Do you deny this? Do you deny that God does not hold Christians responsible? Look closely at Rev. 2.23, and tell me if choices don't matter.
We are responsible for our choices, I never even implied that we aren't. We, as Christians, will not be judged according to our own actions, if we were then not a single one of us would see heaven. We will be rewarded according to our actions. My point is this, man's will is bent towards evil and all that we will choose is evil, it is only through Christ can we do what is right. We never decide to do what is right and then recieve the strength to do it from God, it is always the other way around. We recieve the strength and faith from God to do what is right.

But this shows me that you don't know what others here are saying at all. Rick, in all his books, nor I or anyone here is saying they are saved because we put our faith in Christ. Show me where? How do you believe someone becomes a Christian? By accepting Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and savior?

That's what Rick says,
Wherever you are listening to this, I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity. "Jesus, I believe in You and I receive You." Go ahead. Just say "Jesus, I believe in You and I receive You." If you sincerely meant that prayer, congratulations! Welcome to the family of God!

[theseed]

We are responsible for our choices, I never even implied that we aren't.

So if we are responsible for our choices, then we should choose to obey God. If you think that's foolishness, then their is no reason to dicuss this anymore.

We, as Christians, will not be judged according to our own actions, if we were then not a single one of us would see heaven. We will be rewarded according to our actions.

Listen to yourself, "our actions", that implies a choice, God will judge us to reward us, base on how we follow his will, the 5 purposes for our life.

My point is this, man's will is bent towards evil and all that we will choose is evil, it is only through Christ can we do what is right.

But if I remember correctly, you said that was only true for lost people, the unregenerated, the regenerated. The regenerate have a bent to seek God out and do what is right, becasue of the Holy Spirit. They struggle against thier flesh. If you don't believe me, read Romans 3-10.

We never decide to do what is right and then recieve the strength to do it from God, it is always the other way around. We recieve the strength and faith from God to do what is right

We do if we are regenerate, becasue we have the light of Christ (John 1.5, 18; John 3.18-21). We know the mind of God becasue we have his Spirit,--we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 1)




How do you believe someone becomes a Christian? By accepting Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and savior? That's what Rick says,

Rick Warren is right, if you really mean for Christ to save you, then he will. Christ turns away none that come to him (John 6), and God will disappoint none that seek him (Romans 10). BTW, Warren does say in that quote that you must be sincere, for those just now tunning in.

Do you deny this Lotar? Do you deny what is written in the Bible? Surely, you know the true mark of election is a sincere desire to seek God? Those whom God draws hear the voice of Christ, they hear the word that is near them, and they come to him earnestly.


Romans
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Romans+10&NIV_version=yes&language=english#footnote_141083756_4)] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

[Lotar]

[/font]

So if we are responsible for our choices, then we should choose to obey God. If you think that's foolishness, then their is no reason to dicuss this anymore.

I never said it was foolish to obey God.




Listen to yourself, "our actions", that implies a choice, God will judge us to reward us, base on how we follow his will, the 5 purposes for our life.

We do have a choice, but left to ourselves we will always choose evil. My arguement isn't that we don't have a choice, but that even though we have that choice we still choose evil. So, whenever we do good it is God, not us.



But if I remember correctly, you said that was only true for lost people, the unregenerated, the regenerated. The regenerate have a bent to seek God out and do what is right, becasue of the Holy Spirit. They struggle against thier flesh. If you don't believe me, read Romans 3-10.

Why do the regenerate seek God and to do good works? Because of the faith and love placed in our hearts by God. It is continual, otherwise the first time we sinned we'd be back to being depraved. We choose because God enabled us to do so, God doesn't enable us because we chose. That is the problem.




We do if we are regenerate, becasue we have the light of Christ (John 1.5, 18; John 3.18-21). We know the mind of God becasue we have his Spirit,--we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 1)

Read again what I wrote, and see above.





Rick Warren is right, if you really mean for Christ to save you, then he will. Christ turns away none that come to him (John 6), and God will disappoint none that seek him (Romans 10). BTW, Warren does say in that quote that you must be sincere, for those just now tunning in.

Do you deny this Lotar? Do you deny what is written in the Bible? Surely, you know the true mark of election is a sincere desire to seek God? Those whom God draws hear the voice of Christ, they hear the word that is near them, and they come to him earnestly.

Romans
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Romans+10&NIV_version=yes&language=english#footnote_141083756_4)] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."


God will turn away none who seek Him, but none seek Him. Only those God chooses will come to Him. You don't make a choice, He makes the choice; you don't "invite Him in", He is already there. No one has ever "made a desicion for Christ," though there are many who think they have.

One could not truly say such a prayer unless they already have been given faith, in which case it is without use, redundant and perhaps even blasphemous, as it denies that Christ is already present and attributes His presence to your invitation. If a person is without faith then it is again equally useless as it means nothing to them.

[theseed]

Why do the regenerate seek God and to do good works? Because of the faith and love placed in our hearts by God. It is continual, otherwise the first time we sinned we'd be back to being depraved. We choose because God enabled us to do so, God doesn't enable us because we chose. That is the problem.

No, I see what the problem is and its you and others taking Warren out of context. We he says you must act first, he his talking about trusting God or in other words taking a step of faith. God does wait for us to act before he proves Himself.

God will turn away none who seek Him, but none seek Him.

Wrong, the regenerate seek him, those he draws seek him. Calvinist like myself know this to be true, look at my faith icon if you not sure what I beleive.

Only those God chooses will come to Him. You don't make a choice, He makes the choice; you don't "invite Him in", He is already there. No one has ever "made a desicion for Christ," though there are many who think they have.

Yes he makes the choice, but and we do invite him after he has made the choice. God's election never ever releives man's responsiblity to have faith in Him (John 3.16), but in fact helps fullfill it.

One could not truly say such a prayer unless they already have been given faith, in which case it is without use, redundant and perhaps even blasphemous, as it denies that Christ is already present and attributes His presence to your invitation. If a person is without faith then it is again equally useless as it means nothing to them
Correct they could not, but it is not without cause, because we still have a responsiblity to seek him out. The prayer is a mark of salvtion if it is said earnestly, the Holy Spirit convicted me to say the prayer and many others. Speaking of blaspemy, why do Lutherans put salvtion in the works of the sacraments? As if God depended on them?

This whole time you have been inserting salvtion doctrine into Rick Warren's work where it did not belong, so your asscertis are totally refuted. He is talking about living the Christian life on those pages (Day 22) and not how to get saved. That part about the sinners prayer is from another section of the book, which shows that you or your sources are simply twisting what Rick Warren says. Therefore, everything you said to me in the last 2 posts are totally straw man arguments.

I'm leaving for a retreat, but I will be back on Sunday or Monday to discuss this futher. You should read the post and the link about antimony, God's soveriegnty and man's responsbility are 100% true and found in the bible, and they don't need to be reconciled because they are best friends according to Spurgeon.

[Lotar]

No, I see what the problem is and its you and others taking Warren out of context. We he says you must act first, he his talking about trusting God or in other words taking a step of faith. God does wait for us to act before he proves Himself.

And you call yourself a Calvinist? God does not wait on us to act.

Are you new to Calvinism or does your devotion to your denomination outwieght those beliefs?






Wrong, the regenerate seek him, those he draws seek him. Calvinist like myself know this to be true, look at my faith icon if you not sure what I beleive.


Did you read the rest of the paragraph?





Yes he makes the choice, but and we do invite him after he has made the choice. God's election never ever releives man's responsiblity to have faith in Him (John 3.16), but in fact helps fullfill it.
We invite Him after He made the choice? Why are you trying to play both sides of the fence?

God is either there or not, He chooses us and gives us faith. It's already there and we have nothing to do with it. Read what you are writing, that is pure synergism and has nothing to do with Calvinism. He doesn't "help" fullfil it, He is the one who fullfills it. He gives us the faith; He doesn't regenerate us and then say "alright, I sure hope he invites me in." How are we even regenerated? It is by the indewelling of the Holy Spirit. He is already in us. Do you invite someone in after they're already in the house?



Correct they could not, but it is not without cause, because we still have a responsiblity to seek him out. The prayer is a mark of salvtion if it is said earnestly, the Holy Spirit convicted me to say the prayer and many others.
The gay bishop says he was led by God. What someone feels does not outweight scripture.


Speaking of blaspemy, why do Lutherans put salvtion in the works of the sacraments? As if God depended on them?
If you wish to start a thread on it, go ahead.



This whole time you have been inserting salvtion doctrine into Rick Warren's work where it did not belong, so your asscertis are totally refuted.
Nothing at all has been refuted. This has not been at all the whole time. Since you could not refute what I said conserning works you have switched the conversation over to salvation doctrine by attacking what I posted to ElderMike.


He is talking about living the Christian life on those pages (Day 22) and not how to get saved. That part about the sinners prayer is from another section of the book, which shows that you or your sources are simply twisting what Rick Warren says. Therefore, everything you said to me in the last 2 posts are totally straw man arguments.Not at all. You attacked what I said and I was defending it, the last few posts have been nothing to do with the book because you are attacking my position instead of defending the book.



I'm leaving for a retreat, but I will be back on Sunday or Monday to discuss this futher. You should read the post and the link about antimony, God's soveriegnty and man's responsbility are 100% true and found in the bible, and they don't need to be reconciled because they are best friends according to Spurgeon.
Man's responsibility has nothing to do with his ability. That is what you fail to understand.

[Lotar]

Since we have gone so far off topic, I will summerize my objections to this book.
It fails to properly distinguish between the law and gospel. Saying intimacy with God comes through obedience, etc.
It focuses on what you do for Christ, instead of the the other way around.
The book constantly talks about what you do for God, about you choosing Him, etc.
It is constantly talking about if you do this God will do this.


Are we to be obey? Of course we are. My objection is not with the premise. What is wrong with this book is that it focuses on what you do, attributes the choice to you, etc. Everything in this book needs to be flipped. For example, intimacy does not come through obedience, obedience comes from intimacy. We can only do good works when we obey because we love God and His Law; works done out of obligation, fear of consiquences, hope for reward, etc. are all sins, even if they obey the letter of the Law. People may say that I'm splitting straws, but I am not; this has profound implications.

[TSIBHOD]

If it brings people closer to God, or brings them to serve God more faithfully, then more power to it. I think it is capable of this. If it doesn't help you, fine, but it *has* helped others.

To paraphrase from Bonhoeffer, whoever is intimate with God obeys, and whoever obeys is intimate with God. You can't really say one comes first. That intimacy with God causes obedience is true, but this book is practical. Telling people, "Get intimate with God so that you can obey better," is not helpful, since one wonders, "How do I get more intimate with God?" Telling people to be obedient is something that they can do a little better. Obviously, if a person is ignoring the commands of Jesus that they read in the gospels, they are not going to find intimacy with God easy to come by.

I'll agree that this book is not totally correct theologically, but I do not think it is wrong to focus on what we do for God rather than what God does for us. It is great to know what God does for us, but people need to be told to "take up the cross." Sure, Jesus took up the cross for us first, but He also commands us to follow in His footsteps. Since that is our responsibility, that is what we should be most concerned with.

[Scunk]

The book changed my life.

[ByzantineDixie]

Yesterday I was in the grocery story at the deli counter waiting while the gal sliced my selection. She looked up at me and said "Are you religious?"...(I knew what she meant so I didn't get smart with her!) I answered and she said..."I don't know why I thought that." She then went into a story about her "wild" daughter being saved and completely changed and how her husband was saved just a month ago. She is so happy! Anyway, she and her husband have been going through PDL and she commented how it has dramatically impacted both of them. I thought of this thread...which has haunted me a bit this week.

Is the book a flash in the pan? Maybe. But you never know how God uses the imperfect things of man for His purpose. I know there are people who would point out the theological imperfections in the Henry Blackaby bible study, Experiencing God, but the Holy Spirit used that study to completely change me...and I mean to do a major overhaul. I know that God used a bad school system to bring me back to Him (another story for another thread). The Holy Spirit can use all sorts of avenues for His purpose. I don't think PDL is off limits for His use.

Love

Rose

[theseed]

Since that is our responsibility, that is what we should be most concerned with.

Yes, that is what the book is about, being responsible Christian by knowing what God purposes or every Christian's life.

[theseed]

And you call yourself a Calvinist? God does not wait on us to act.
No I call myself a biblicist, and I see more eye to eye with most Calvinist then I do with Arminiast, in regards to soteriology. BTW, that is what you keep coming back to. When did John Calvin say that election has to do with other things than salvation? God does wait for us to act, and act in faith. And faith is a gift brought on by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Alas, I'm repeating myself. God waits for us to act in our Christian walk--many times--not before he saves us.

Are you new to Calvinism or does your devotion to your denomination outwieght those beliefs?

I found CF studying the issues of Calvinsism, and I spent 3 months doing my studies before I came to my decision. However, I knew of the issues and the arguments for years now. So what I say here, I don't say in a vacuum.

If you wish to start a thread on it, go ahead.

Another day perhaps.

Nothing at all has been refuted. This has not been at all the whole time. Since you could not refute what I said conserning works you have switched the conversation over to salvation doctrine by attacking what I posted to ElderMike.

When you brought up the "sinners prayer" you brought up salvtion, and when you said Calvinism was contradictory to what I have been saying, you brought up salvtion. A third example, you said that nobody does good and seeks God, but God choses them; this also related to salvation. So, the sacraments are thereby related to the subject of salvtion, and I consider baptism to be a work. You consider the "sinners prayer" to be a work, but what is in a man's heart is what comes out of his mouth, that is seen in the writings of Mathew and/or Luke, and Paul, and James. Romans 10 speaks of evanglism and what needs to be done for salvation, as a matter of practicality. No where are we relieved of our obligation to believe and have faith in Christ, and no where are we relieved of our obligation to seek God. That is why evanglists proclaim "whosoever believes", whether they know it or not, the Holy Spirit works so that they hear and recieve the message properly.

Not at all. You attacked what I said and I was defending it, the last few posts have been nothing to do with the book because you are attacking my position instead of defending the book.

And your position is what? That Warren says we earn our salvtion? That God does not tell us to make a choice to obey Him? Many Calvinist would even agree that we are free moral agents. Many times, I have acted on faith, because I did not have "proof" that God would do as he promised. That is what Rick Wareen is saying on page 175.

Man's responsibility has nothing to do with his ability. That is what you fail to understand.


Correct, On page 174 of PDL, Warren writes that we work by the power of the Holy Spirit, and how the Spirit compsates for our weaknesses. And other a new subheading, he discusses our responsibilty to make every effort. Of course without God "every effort" would not be enough, but that does not mean God wants us to be lazy and let him do all the work. Paul says, "I can do all things through Him who strenghtens me". God uses people's ablities (talents) for his glory through the Gifts and Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Notice that Paul says "I can do" does that make him blasphemous because he "makes every effort"? He also says, "We walk by faith and not by sight". This is the same thing that Warren says on page 175, under a new subheading, we take our steps in the Christian walk without proof, we walk by faith. And we have a responsiblity to walk, this is an action on our part that is aiding by the Holy Spirit, since our faith comes from the Holy Spirit. "So the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak", so Warren says we must walk even when we have doubts and fears.

[theseed]

It fails to properly distinguish between the law and gospel. Saying intimacy with God comes through obedience, etc.


Yes, it does after salvtion, the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. A saved person can not deliberately disobey God and be intimate. But in fact obediance and love are tied togeter. "If you love me you will keep my commandments" (John 13)


It focuses on what you do for Christ, instead of the the other way around.


It focues on what we do for Christ/God because it is about God's purpose for our life. Do you deny that God wants us to obey him and seek his will? Off course you don't. Whenever someone ask "What is God's will for my life"? They also ask "What does God want me to do"? And when they do those things, they do them for God.


The book constantly talks about what you do for God, about you choosing Him, etc


How would you know? You have not read the entire book. The book constantly talks about God's purpose for our life, and by our I mean Christians" And what is another word for purpose? Will. It speaks of what we are to do to seek God's will, God's purpose for us, and that includes submission and obediance. Because God has a purpose for my life, my life is purpose driven. And this purpose determines how we live for Christ.


It is constantly talking about if you do this God will do this.

So? Is God not a God of convenant? Is he not a God of promise? Does he not promise that obediance brings blessings? Time and time again, I have heard how miserable people were when they knew they were living outside of God's will, and time and time again. Likewise, we see God in the bible rewarding those who obey and submit to Him. Are we not stewards of what God gives us, and he blesses us by how we invest what he gives us? Just like the tithe in Malachi, God promises blessings to those who tithe faithfully. Look at King Hezekiah in Isaiah 38, he repented, and God added 15 years to his life. Does not God want us to love him with all our heart, soul, and mind? Yes, abosutely, and that is why it says eight times in the NT that we should "make every effort".


All five purposes that God has fall under two commandments 1)Love God, and 2)Love others. So, what we are suppose to do we do for God and not for oursleves. The whole book conistantly speaks about what God wants us to do for Him.


In the bible:

1)If there is a statement of fact, believe it.

2)If there is a command, obey it.

3)If thier is a promise, claim it.



For example, intimacy does not come through obedience, obedience comes from intimacy.


Yes, it regards to salvtion, not in regards building that relationship. Why does James say, "Draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you". And likewise he says, "humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and he will lift you up" (James 4). Sounds like to me obediance and submission is on the part of the believer in the Christian walk. Obediance and submission bring intamacy and blessings.


We can only do good works when we obey because we love God and His Law


Again we see action on the part of the believe, "if you love me you will keep my commandments"; I think that is an obligation on my part. Love thier is agape love, which denotes action.


We can only do good works when we obey because we love God and His Law; works done out of obligation, fear of consiquences, hope for reward, etc


Yes, that would be seflish, but don't deny God's promise and ignore it either. We obey God becasue we love him. No where does Warren use fear as a tactic to convince others to obey God or obligation. However, he would be remiss and us to if we did not consider the consequences that our actions have in the Christian walk. He speaks of obediance in terms of how we fellowship with God and have intimacy with God, and how fellowship with God is part of his purpose in us. We were created for God's pleasure. Those rewards that we recieve are for God's pleasure, he recieves enjoyment in what he gives us (1 Tim. 6.17).

[wvmtnkid]

Since we have gone so far off topic, I will summerize my objections to this book.
It fails to properly distinguish between the law and gospel. Saying intimacy with God comes through obedience, etc.
It focuses on what you do for Christ, instead of the the other way around.
The book constantly talks about what you do for God, about you choosing Him, etc.
It is constantly talking about if you do this God will do this.


Are we to be obey? Of course we are. My objection is not with the premise. What is wrong with this book is that it focuses on what you do, attributes the choice to you, etc. Everything in this book needs to be flipped. For example, intimacy does not come through obedience, obedience comes from intimacy. We can only do good works when we obey because we love God and His Law; works done out of obligation, fear of consiquences, hope for reward, etc. are all sins, even if they obey the letter of the Law. People may say that I'm splitting straws, but I am not; this has profound implications.
I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but I just wanted to answer some of Lotar's concern's here.

Not to be argumentative or put words in his mouth, but I get the feeling from reading this post that an objection is that the book is promoting the feeling of "if you will do things for God, he will reward you greatly for doing said things."

I can tell you, it hasn't made me feel that way in the slightest. I haven't got the impression that God "owes me" if I work for Him. Actually, it has made me realize how much of a slacker I really am and what excuses I use not to do the work of God or perhaps some of the things He has called me to do. It has helped me to see that perhaps some of the times I have heard the voice of God tell me to do something, and I haven't done it. It's really been a wake up call for me and how if I call myself a Christian what implications that has on my life. My life isn't my own, it's God's. Not that I didn't already know this, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to be reminded. I think it's easy to get complacent in our lives sometimes. We get caught up in our own priorities and goals, our families priorities and goals. Sometimes we lose what it is all about. Our life is not about us. I think this book is a great reminder of that fact. Should it replace the Bible? No. Is it helpful resource to get us back on track when we need might have strayed a bit? Yes. I think it just needs to be kept in perspective.

I guess all I am trying to say is it has helped me to be more aware of my relationship with Jesus how I need to be more open in my life to serving him because of that relationship. Which to me, as a Christian, is what we are all about regardless of what doctrine or theology we hold to.

[ChiRho]

Yesterday I was in the grocery story at the deli counter waiting while the gal sliced my selection. She looked up at me and said "Are you religious?"...(I knew what she meant so I didn't get smart with her!) I answered and she said..."I don't know why I thought that." She then went into a story about her "wild" daughter being saved and completely changed and how her husband was saved just a month ago. She is so happy! Anyway, she and her husband have been going through PDL and she commented how it has dramatically impacted both of them. I thought of this thread...which has haunted me a bit this week.

Is the book a flash in the pan? Maybe. But you never know how God uses the imperfect things of man for His purpose. I know there are people who would point out the theological imperfections in the Henry Blackaby bible study, Experiencing God, but the Holy Spirit used that study to completely change me...and I mean to do a major overhaul. I know that God used a bad school system to bring me back to Him (another story for another thread). The Holy Spirit can use all sorts of avenues for His purpose. I don't think PDL is off limits for His use.

Love

Rose

God uses everything for His good, this is most certainly true, but we must not support nor encourage that which darkens, currupts, or perverts the Truth. I think there is a verse specifically dealing with this sort of attitude...

Romans 3:8

8Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[Flynmonkie]

God uses everything for His good, this is most certainly true, but we must not support nor encourage that which darkens, currupts, or perverts the Truth. I think there is a verse specifically dealing with this sort of attitude...

Romans 3:8

8Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho
I don't know about anyone else but I am sick and tired of seeing people post as if they think they have cornered the market on what Gods plans are for our lives. That they know the exact path God wants us on. And saying that those whom wish to make their daily walk in the light, are perverting the truth??? That it is Evil?:rolleyes:

Just as I said to Lotar I will say to you.

Did God tell you to come to the boards today? Did God tell you to write all of this? I seriously doubt it. Can he use what you have done, I am quite sure of it. There is a line between what you can do in leading a Christian life and walking in His light on a daily basis and "getting to heaven" by good works. As I have said before. Once you have reached a level of maturity and education in your faith, you too will realize this.

Othewise it is sensless to be here, or studying any other opinion about the bible or going to church to share ideas on how to perceive the Bible.

Before you start condemning the book with Hyper comments, why don't you read it. And educate yourself and see what God thinks about it.

[Lotar]

Yes, it does after salvtion, the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. A saved person can not deliberately disobey God and be intimate. But in fact obediance and love are tied togeter. "If you love me you will keep my commandments" (John 13)


No, it does not, and that is one of the main reasons I am against this book. Love and obediance are tied together, this is true, but it is love that drives our obediance, never the other way around. If you love Him, you will obey Him, but attempting to obey Him will not cause an increase in love.

Does the love for your parents increase the more you obey them? That's silly. Intimacy with God comes through prayer and the word (we would include sacraments, but I won't get into that :D ). Intimacy comes through communion with God and knowledge of Him, just as it does with another person. As your love for Him grows, so does your desire to please Him; thus, "If you love me you will keep my commandments".




It focues on what we do for Christ/God because it is about God's purpose for our life. Do you deny that God wants us to obey him and seek his will? Off course you don't. Whenever someone ask "What is God's will for my life"? They also ask "What does God want me to do"? And when they do those things, they do them for God.

How would you know? You have not read the entire book. The book constantly talks about God's purpose for our life, and by our I mean Christians" And what is another word for purpose? Will. It speaks of what we are to do to seek God's will, God's purpose for us, and that includes submission and obediance. Because God has a purpose for my life, my life is purpose driven. And this purpose determines how we live for Christ.

So? Is God not a God of convenant? Is he not a God of promise? Does he not promise that obediance brings blessings? Time and time again, I have heard how miserable people were when they knew they were living outside of God's will, and time and time again. Likewise, we see God in the bible rewarding those who obey and submit to Him. Are we not stewards of what God gives us, and he blesses us by how we invest what he gives us? Just like the tithe in Malachi, God promises blessings to those who tithe faithfully. Look at King Hezekiah in Isaiah 38, he repented, and God added 15 years to his life. Does not God want us to love him with all our heart, soul, and mind? Yes, abosutely, and that is why it says eight times in the NT that we should "make every effort".

I already explained what I meant by this, and that is not it.

Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. I was speaking of the author saying things like, you make the choice and then God will enable you to do it, etc.






All five purposes that God has fall under two commandments 1)Love God, and 2)Love others. So, what we are suppose to do we do for God and not for oursleves. The whole book conistantly speaks about what God wants us to do for Him.

Again, my problem is not with the premise but with his explainations/theology.



In the bible:

1)If there is a statement of fact, believe it.

2)If there is a command, obey it.

3)If thier is a promise, claim it.






Yes, it regards to salvtion, not in regards building that relationship. Why does James say, "Draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you". And likewise he says, "humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and he will lift you up" (James 4). Sounds like to me obediance and submission is on the part of the believer in the Christian walk. Obediance and submission bring intamacy and blessings.

Blessings, yes; intimacy, no.




Again we see action on the part of the believe, "if you love me you will keep my commandments"; I think that is an obligation on my part. Love thier is agape love, which denotes action.

Yes, that would be seflish, but don't deny God's promise and ignore it either. We obey God becasue we love him. No where does Warren use fear as a tactic to convince others to obey God or obligation. However, he would be remiss and us to if we did not consider the consequences that our actions have in the Christian walk. He speaks of obediance in terms of how we fellowship with God and have intimacy with God, and how fellowship with God is part of his purpose in us. We were created for God's pleasure. Those rewards that we recieve are for God's pleasure, he recieves enjoyment in what he gives us (1 Tim. 6.17).

I wasn't speaking about obligation, I was speaking about ability and the fact that works done for any other reason than the for the love of God and His commandments are done sinfully, and merit punishment, not blessings.

[theseed]

Does the love for your parents increase the more you obey them?

Yes, disobediance is sin, and sin seperates us from God, therefore obediance brings us closer.

I don't recall Warren ascerting obediance to God for rewards, but for God's purpose for the Christian.

Why is it that we love God? Because he first loved us, therefore, the Christian life is based from the beginning on reward (1 John 3).

[Lotar]

I don't know about anyone else but I am sick and tired of seeing people post as if they think they have cornered the market on what Gods plans are for our lives. That they know the exact path God wants us on. And saying that those whom wish to make their daily walk in the light, are perverting the truth??? That it is Evil?:rolleyes:

Just as I said to Lotar I will say to you.

Did God tell you to come to the boards today? Did God tell you to write all of this? I seriously doubt it. Can he use what you have done, I am quite sure of it. There is a line between what you can do in leading a Christian life and walking in His light on a daily basis and "getting to heaven" by good works. As I have said before. Once you have reached a level of maturity and education in your faith, you too will realize this.

Othewise it is sensless to be here, or studying any other opinion about the bible or going to church to share ideas on how to perceive the Bible.

Before you start condemning the book with Hyper comments, why don't you read it. And educate yourself and see what God thinks about it.
I don't think someone who has nearly no knowledge of the doctrines of election, free will, works, etc. should be lecturing us on "maturity and education."

If what I post is good and pleasing to God, then it was He who made it possible and led me to do so. If what I post is sinful and offensive to God, then it was my own carnal passions that led me to do so. That is the answer to your questions.

[Lotar]

Yes, disobediance is sin, and sin seperates us from God, therefore obediance brings us closer.

I don't recall Warren ascerting obediance to God for rewards, but for God's purpose for the Christian.

Why is it that we love God? Because he first loved us, therefore, the Christian life is based from the beginning on reward (1 John 3).


:sigh:
You are so intent on defending this book that you do not realize what you say. If this is truely what you believe and what is taught in this book, then my objections are well grounded, whether you agree with my opinions or not.

[theseed]

You are so intent on defending this book that you do not realize what you say. If this is truely what you believe and what is taught in this book, then my objections are well grounded, whether you agree with my opinions or not.Your objections are not grounded. And you can't wave what I say away. You say obediance does not bring one closer, and I said disobediance seperates us from God. This is entirely logical and true.

You proclaim that the book constantly speaks of rewards, but it does not. I've read it. Your claim is entirely over generalized at best.

[Lotar]

Your objects are not grounded. And you can't wave what I say away. You say obediance does not bring one closer, and I said disobediance seperates us from God. This is entirely logical and true.

You proclaim that the book constantly speaks of rewards, but it does not. I've read it. Your claim is entirely over generalized at best.
Disobediance, ie sin, is what seperates the unregenerate from God. The regenerate are never seperated from God. But my point was this, what you said is exactly what is my problem is with the book.

You, just like the author, do not properly distinguish between the Law and the Gospel.

Let us bring this whole discussion of law, gospel, and faith together under several theses:
1. The law is the doctrine that commands what is and what is not to be done.
2. The gospel is the promise of the grace of God.
3. The law demands impossible things such as the love of God and our neighbor.
4. Those who try to keep the law by their natural powers or free will simulate only the external works; they do not give expression to those attitudes which the law demands.
5. Therefore, they do not satisfy the law, but they are hypocrites, "whitewashed tombs," as Christ calls them in Matt 23:27. Gal 3:10 says: "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse.
6. Therefore, it is not the function of the law to justify.
7. But the proper function of the law is to reveal sin and especially to confound the conscience. Rom 3:20: "Through the law comes knowledge of sin."
8. To a conscience acknowledging sin and confounded by the law, the gospel reveals Christ.
9. Thus John reveals Christ at the very time he preaches repentance: "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).
10. The faith by which we belive the gospel showing us Christ and by which Christ is received as the one who has placated the Father and through whom grace is given, this faith is our righteousness. John 1:12: "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become Children of God."
11. If it is actually faith alone that justifies, there is clearly no regard for our merits or our works , bot only for the merits of Christ.
12. This faith calms and gladdens the heart. Rom 5:1: "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace."
13. The result of faith is that for such a great blessing, the forgiveness of sins because of Christ, we love God in return. Therefore, love for God is a fruit of faith.
14. This same faith causes us to be ashamed of having offended such a kind and generous father.
15. Therefore, it cause us to abhor our flesh with its evil desires.
16. Human reason neither fears God nor believes him, but is utterly ignorant of him and despises him. We know this from Ps. 14:1: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Luke 16:31 "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." Here Christ points out that the human heartdoes not believe the word of God. This madness of the human heart is what Solomon railed at in the whole book of Ecclesiastes as can be seen from ch. 8:11: "Because sentence agains an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil."
17. Because the human heart is utterly ignorant of God, it turns aside to its own counsels and desires, and sets itself up in the place of God.
18. When God confounds the human heart through the law with a sense of sin, it does not yet know God, that is, it does not know his goodness and therefore hates him as if he were a tormentor.
19. When God comforts and consoles the human heart through the gospel by showing it Christ, then finally it knows God, for it recognizes both his power and his goodness. This is what Jer 9:24 means: "But let him who glories glory in this, that...he knows me."
20. The heart of him who has believed the gospel and come to know the goodness of God is now fortified so that it trusts in God and fears him and consequently abhors the thoughts of the human heart.
21. Peter said very fittingly in Acts 15:9 that hearts are cleansed by faith.
22. Mercy is revealed through the promises.
23. Sometimes material things are promised, and at other times spiritual.
24. In the law, material things such as the Land of Canaan, the Kingdom, etc. are promised.
25. The gospel is the promise of grace or the forgiveness of sins through Christ.
26. All material promises are dependent on the promise of Christ.
27. For the first promise was a promise of grace or Christ. It is found in Gen 3:15: "He shall bruise your head." This means that the seed of Eve will crush the kingdom of the serpent plotting agains our heel, that is Christ will crush sin and death.
28. This was renewed in the promise made to Abraham: "By your decendants shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 22:18).
29. Therefore, since Christ was to be born of the descendants of Abraham, the promises added to the law about the possession of the earth, etc. were obscure promises of the Christ who was to come. For those material things were promised to the people until the promised seed should be born, lest they perish and in order that in the meantime God might indicate his mercy by material things and might thereby exercise the faith of his people.
30. By Christ's birth the promises to mankind were consumated, and the forgiveness of sins, for which Christ had to be born, was openly made known.
31. The promises of the Old Testament are signs of the Christ to come and also of the promise of grace to be broadcast at some future time. The gospel, the very promise of grace, has already been made known.
32. Just as that man does not know God who knows only that he exists but does not know either his power or his mercy, so also that man does not believe who believes only that God exists but does not believe both in his power and his mercy.
33. He really believes, therefore, who, looking beyond the threats, believes the gospel also, who fixes his face on the mercy of God or on Christ, the pledge of divine mercy.
So much on faith; we shall add certain things on love a little later after we have dealt with the difference between the law and gospel.
I did not say that it constantly speaks of rewards. I said it speaks of you making a decision and then God giving you the power to go through with it, and so on.

[theseed]

I did not say that it constantly speaks of rewards. I said it speaks of you making a decision and then God giving you the power to go through with it, and so on.

And what is wrong with this? And no it does not constantly speak of this either, this is the part about ministry.

When Warren speaks of obediance, he is not speaking of the 613 mitzvas, he is speaking of what God wants us to do, God's purpose for our life. No where does he say that obediance is the gospel. Surely, you believe that disobediance in anyone's life will coomprimise thier relationship with God? Surely, you don't think we are immune to the consequences of disobediance?

[Lotar]

And what is wrong with this? And no it does not constantly speak of this either, this is the part about ministry.

I have already pointed out what is wrong with this. Either you agree or you don't, there's no reason for me to type it over again.



When Warren speaks of obediance, he is not speaking of the 613 mitzvas, he is speaking of what God wants us to do, God's purpose for our life. No where does he say that obediance is the gospel.

Yet he confuses their purposes.



Surely, you believe that disobediance in anyone's life will coomprimise thier relationship with God? Surely, you don't think we are immune to the consequences of disobediance?

A person is accountable to the earthly consiquences of their actions, and the Lord may see fit to bring the sin to their attention.

Believing one can willfully and persistantly sin against God, believing it's okay because God will forgive them, can cause a person to lose their faith and therefore their salvation. But that is a subject for another thread.

Sin no longer seperates us from God, because we are justified before God through Christ. It has nothing to do with our merits. I have already explained this, so I will stop here.

[theseed]

did not say that it constantly speaks of rewards. I said it speaks of you making a decision and then God giving you the power to go through with it, and so on.

Disageeing with something does not make it untrue. The bible clearly teaches that we minister through the only Spirit. Why do you disgree with this?

Yet he confuses their purposes.

How?

A person is accountable to the earthly consiquences of their actions, and the Lord may see fit to bring the sin to their attention.

True.

Believing one can willfully and persistantly sin against God, believing it's okay because God will forgive them, can cause a person to lose their faith and therefore their salvation. But that is a subject for another thread.

And has nothing to do with PDL.

Sin no longer seperates us from God, because we are justified before God through Christ. It has nothing to do with our merits. I have already explained this, so I will stop here.

Yes believers are justified, but we still have need to confess our sins, are sins are there, and they can interfere with our relationship with God. So we must repent of our sins when God brings it to our attention. At the same time, if we sow in obediance, we will reap the blessings. A man reaps what he sows, those are natural and supernatural consequences.

If you would like, you can site specific examples, and I can go from there. Otherwise, PDL speaks very little of obediance in the explicit sense.

[Lotar]

Disageeing with something does not make it untrue. The bible clearly teaches that we minister through the only Spirit. Why do you disgree with this?


:confused:





How?

I've already explained.











Yes believers are justified, but we still have need to confess our sins, are sins are there, and they can interfere with our relationship with God. So we must repent of our sins when God brings it to our attention. At the same time, if we sow in obediance, we will reap the blessings. A man reaps what he sows, those are natural and supernatural consequences.
If you would like, you can site specific examples, and I can go from there. Otherwise, PDL speaks very little of obediance in the explicit sense.




First off, I don't think you are even understanding what I am saying. Like this book, your understanding of the Law and Gospel is mixed up. Whether you agree with my beliefs or not, what I object to is not a misunderstanding of what the book teaches, your defense of it proves as much. I understand that you are reading up on Reformed theology, so I will end this conversation here, since you will discover that Calvinism does not mesh with the position you are supporting here.

[theseed]

First off, I don't think you are even understanding what I am saying. Like this book, your understanding of the Law and Gospel is mixed up. Whether you agree with my beliefs or not, what I object to is not a misunderstanding of what the book teaches, your defense of it proves as much. I understand that you are reading up on Reformed theology, so I will end this conversation here, since you will discover that Calvinism does not mesh with the position you are supporting here.

No, I'm done reading up on Calvinism, and as I said before, what I claim, I don't claim in a vacuum. I know where I am comming from. As I said before, Calvinist should be the last people to get hung up on free will. Both man's responsiblity and God's Soveriegnty are 100% and can be understand seperately, but when put together, they are hard to grasp. And sometimes we see them in the same bible verse (John 6.37).

So far we discussed salvation and then law, but I still don't understand your objections. No where does the book claim we are justified by what we do. As for the obediance part, you must cite a specific example, becasue most of the book does not explicitly discuss obediance.



As I said before, I'm a biblicist, not a Calvinist. A man does reap what he sows, and God can not be mocked. Why do you deny this?

"Through many dangers toils and snares I have already come, grace have brought me safe thus far" --John Newton

Sounds like free will and God's Soveriegnty to me.

[Lotar]

No, I'm done reading up on Calvinism, and as I said before, what I claim, I don't claim in a vacuum. I know where I am comming from. As I said before, Calvinist should be the last people to get hung up on free will. Both man's responsiblity and God's Soveriegnty are 100% and can be understand seperately, but when put together, they are hard to grasp. And sometimes we see them in the same bible verse (John 6.37).

So far we discussed salvation and then law, but I still don't understand your objections. No where does the book claim we are justified by what we do. As for the obediance part, you must cite a specific example, becasue most of the book does not explicitly discuss obediance.



As I said before, I'm a biblicist, not a Calvinist. A man does reap what he sows, and God can not be mocked. Why do you deny this?

"Through many dangers toils and snares I have already come, grace have brought me safe thus far" --John Newton

Sounds like free will and God's Soveriegnty to me.
Done reading up on it? Too bad. You do not realize that your beliefs are Thomist as opposed to Calvinist. Synergism has no place in Reformed theology.

[theseed]

"You cannot produce the charactor of Jesus on your own strenght" P. 175

"While effort has nothing to do with your salvtion, it has much to do with your spiritual growth" P.175

Why do you think this is not true Lotar? Don't you know that believers can grieve and resist the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 4

29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

Romans 7.21
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature (flesh) a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

[Lotar]

Why do you put words in my mouth? I never even implied anything of the sort.

[theseed]

Done reading up on it? Too bad. You do not realize that your beliefs are Thomist as opposed to Calvinist. Synergism has no place in Reformed theology.


Again, I'm not the syngergist, those who believe that sacraments bring grace are. Syngergism is about salvtion, and you said we are not talking about salvtion, and you said that your objections were not in regards to salvtion.

So syngergism is a change in the subject. No where in PDL does Warren ascert that we are saved by works. You already had this discussion with eldermike

[theseed]

Why do you put words in my mouth? I never even implied anything of the sort.That is what I keep hearing, you need to clarify you objections. You say that we are not suppose to work for rightousness and work with the Holy Spirit. I say the Holy Spirit provides the power by which we work, but we can't sit on our butts and do nothing.

[theseed]

I give up. I can't argue about something that the other party is not familiar with. Lotar, if you object then you need to present some scripture that says we don't work with the Holy Spirit in regards to our daily walk. I know we don't work to bring salvtion.

If you want to know what I beleive about election grace, then read this link. I'm Baptist and I go to a Southern Baptist Church (affiliated). And I believe everything in that link.

http://www.founders.org/library/reis1/reis.html

Just as God inspired (sucked in) the writers of the Bible, so to does he suck us in the same way. Each book of the bible has style of its writer, and yet every word that was pinned was there by God's will. In this way, God's election to grace is consistant with our personalities and situations that we are in. It does not contradict free agency but is consistant with it. "Election to grace is consistant with the free agency of man"--Baptist Faith and Message.

This is true in regards to salvtion, but not in our daily walk. The Holy Spirit does not empower us to be obediant as we chose to. Otherwise that would mean the Holy Spirit often fails at what He intends to do since believers sin everyday.

[Lotar]

That is what I keep hearing, you need to clarify you objections. You say that we are not suppose to work for rightousness and work with the Holy Spirit. I say the Holy Spirit provides the power by which we work, but we can't sit on our butts and do nothing.
Then you need to take some time and read my posts slower. Most likely you just want to twist my words.


Righteousness is from Christ alone and has nothing to do with our works. The purpose of the law is to condemn and convict, not to justify nor make righteous. True works can only come from love of God and His law. Obedience cannot increase intimacy, infact, obediance done for reasons other than love (obligation, fear of consiquences, etc.) are still sinful and will instead create resentment, pride, etc. So telling people to do works for intimacy with God is superbly evil. Intimacy with God can only come through communion (the Gospel, prayer, etc.) with Him. Our love and knowledge of Him will then immediately produce true works, fruit of the spirit. Love and works are tied together but it is love that causes works and never the other way around, just as faith and works are tied together.

When we do good works it is not of our own ability that we choose to do so, but it is God working in us. We are enabled and given the ability by God, it is not at all to our credit, not even the choice to do so can be credited to us. To say that we make the choice and then are enabled to perform it is heretical, even Rome does not go so far.

[Lotar]

Again, I'm not the syngergist, those who believe that sacraments bring grace are. Syngergism is about salvtion, and you said we are not talking about salvtion, and you said that your objections were not in regards to salvtion.

So syngergism is a change in the subject. No where in PDL does Warren ascert that we are saved by works. You already had this discussion with eldermike
Well, lets redefine words so that they no long apply. :D

BTW, I do object to the few parts where the author does speak of salvation.

[Flynmonkie]

I don't think someone who has nearly no knowledge of the doctrines of election, free will, works, etc. should be lecturing us on "maturity and education." Oh my! Now this is Christ like isn't it.:confused: :rolleyes: Do you really think your posts are pleasing to God. :eek: :eek: :( Might be a good idea if you do pick up a Bible because your education level on Gods opinion on acting in a Christian manner is definatly lacking in maturity. And your insinuations are definatly not biblical nor are they Christ-like.

Oh, I see not only can you see and know my heart like God you can now assume my education level.:scratch: Spiritual Maturity and education do not come from anything but prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit for direct study of the Bible.

Now your saying that you have to be educated on Mans opinion of God to know God? I know for some strange reason you feel the need to understand mans perceptions to understand God. However, you have it backwards.
Nope I do not study mans perception of how to comparmentalize God. I study the Bible first and foremost, that is enough to keep me busy.

That is your problem, you are leaning towards mans understanding for your views of God rather than allowing God to lead you where he wants you to be. I doubt very seriously it is here putting down everyone that has a different opinion, or picking arguments where none were intended.

Isn't it interesting that the whole reason you started this fit throwing was because of a Book you did not read and have no idea about, your opinion formed against -> because of exactly what you are telling me I have no educati