Orthodox Fundamentalism

[vanshan]

Here's an editorial I read today about the tendency of American converts to be overzealous:

The Orthodox Christian News Service


Submitted October 12, 2004

Orthodox Fundamentalism




By observation for some time now, it seems that Orthodox fundamentalism is alive and well. In all of the Orthodox jurisdictions in America there seems to be those who are insisting that Orthodox men must have pony tails and beards and women must wear long ugly dresses and babushkas. Furthermore, within the clergy ranks, there is a movement for all clerics to wear cassocks at all times everywhere and must for scraggily facial hair and funny hats. It doesn't stop here, but goes beyond the externals into a fundamentalist mindset of following so-called "traditional Orthodox" ideals. Upon examination, one finds that these ideals aren't necessarily traditionally Orthodox, but a weird mixture of fundamentalism and an adherence to anything pre-1900 from Russia or Greece. Many converts coming to Orthodoxy are grabbing on to this "life-style" thinking that "this" is the real Orthodoxy. Who is teaching this stuff?

After some searching, it seems that there are some less educated clerics preaching this as the Orthodox norm - even bishops. On closer examination, much of this comes from convert clerics who have "found the true light!" It seems that this influence is becoming more prevalent in America and many parishes are having to appease a wave of "Super-Orthodox" who look as if they would be more comfortable on Mount Athos. Their dogmatic adherence to the "letter of the law" and lack of understanding of the "spirit of the law" complicates teaching of what Orthodoxy really is in following Christ.

It could be that this generation needs a regimentation of a certain look and way of thinking to believe they are Orthodox and not Protestant or Roman Catholic, but this becomes cultic in its approach. Like "Orthodox Home-Boys" the only thing lacking are the pierced body parts and tattoos, or are they? This phenomenon is puzzling and will cause more issues for the Orthodox faithful as this spreads. The clash between this fundamental approach to Orthodoxy and the norm hopefully will correct itself, but not without more friction and problems!

Nicholas Cobb


Any comments? I tend to think this article is a little uncharitable, but a good point is made.

Basil

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I agree with you, Basil. There are a couple of good points, but the author seems very judgemental of people who seek to hold onto traditions (even if they are small t traditions). There is nothing wrong with tradtionalism as long as the spirit of it is right. There seems to be a misconception among some folks who think that anyone who is traditional is an "orthoduck". I even heard on another Orthodox message board (Beliefnet, which is horrible in my opinion) someone said that Orthodox priests who believe beards are important are part of the "lunitic fringe of Orthodoxy." That's a riot! Beards have always been the norm, not the exception to it (though this in no way has anything to do with salvation).

There are problems on both extremes (as usual). Those who think salvation is not possible without excessive traditionalism (and everyone else is not Orthodox enough), and the liberals who think tradition is useless, and we are modern Americans who don't need that "old world" garbage! Neither extreme is good, IMO.

[vanshan]

I agree with you completely GDE. <You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta again.>

My basic response is this:

As one of those converts, whom you speak of so disparagingly, I would like to suggest that even if converts show a greater desire to invite Orthodoxy to inform every area of their life so that they might leave behind the "old man," which for them is an identity of heterodox belief, then I think that should be approached with a little more empathy from craddle Orthodox believers. Of course, their zeal must be checked with the understanding that we do not hold customs of grooming, or those things we call little "t's," legalistically. To discount the spirituality of these converts based on appearances, is uncharitable and only leads to distrust between believers from both backgrounds.

It seems the ethnic Orthodoxy of America are focused on fitting in with American culture, while preserving the faith; whereas, American converts desire to separate themselves from their heterodox American heritage and drink from the deep wells of Orthodoxy, seeking a total break with their former identity. It is nearly miraculous for an American to discover Orthodoxy so, naturally there is great emotion or zeal involved in discovering the ancient faith. This enthusiasm, if bridled by Orthodox discipline, can be the steam that propels the Church in America forward to greater heights, with God's mercy.

Basil Shannon

[vanshan]

This was published on another message board:

Fr Raphael Vereshack

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes I once did a paper on this subject trying to connect the concept of Tradition/traditions to Christology. Of course right away one can see the problem as Matthew states it. To see Tradition apart from tradition as if the latter were of little consequence is akin to seeing the Incarnation as being inconsequential and seeing only the Pre-eternal Logos as being important. In a real sense the disparagement of tradition in our day bears certain similarities to iconoclasm- and indeed gives us a glimpse as to the spirit that may have led to the disparagement of icons.
If Tradition is how the Holy Spirit guides the Church then the traditions of the Church are manifestations of the Holy Spirit and not irrelevant or secondary. In fact there is no such thing as Tradition without traditions. I would submit that within the Church we only have what is a manifestation of Tradition (not to say that these are cast in concrete or can never change- on the contrary since the Holy Spirit is active & living within the Church) and what is not really Tradition at all, but merely worldly custom.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

I think this is a very important point about so-called little "t's."

Basil

[Oblio]

I wonder how many hyper-Trads are in obedience to their spiritual father in such matters rather than just rolling their own (IOW a Protestant approach) WRT those important things in their walk with Christ, whether they be (real) traditions or Traditions.

We do run the risk of either our churches looking like a poorly cast production of Fiddler on the Roof or Baptists with Icons if we all do what we think is Orthodox in praxis rather than what the Church teaches.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I wonder how many hyper-Trads are in obedience to their spiritual father in such matters rather than just rolling their own (IOW a Protestant approach) WRT those important things in their walk with Christ, whether they be (real) traditions or Traditions.

We do run the risk of either our churches looking like a poorly cast production of Fiddler on the Roof or Baptists with Icons if we all do what we think is Orthodox in praxis rather than what the Church teaches.
I agree. I know a few very traditional people, but they are in obedience to their spiritual fathers.

[Momzilla]

I generally agree with the proposition that hyper-traditionalism is bad. However, I fail to see "hyper-traditionalism" in the exampls Mr. Cobb cites. Rather, what I see is an appropriate response to the call for Christians to be not of this world. I think it is appropriate that we, as Orthodox, identify ourselves as such through customs such as men wearing beards, women dressing modestly, and priests wearing their cassocks. Indeed, that last is particularly important. It's as though Mr. Cobb is saying "Go ahead, be Orthodox, but no one has to know about it."

If my priest doesn't need to wear his cassock outside of the church, well then I don't need to fast when I'm out with my friends, do I? And really, I should dress provocatively and speak immodestly when I'm among non-Orthodox so as not to appear "different." And really, who cares what I wear to church? It's all about what's in my heart, right? And while we're at it, so long as someone's heart is in the right place, we should let them take communion even if they're not Orthodox. And for heaven's sake, where are the pews? People can't really be expected to stand for an entire Liturgy. On second thought, the Liturgy is just too long. Let's get rid of the Antiphons and some of the repetetive stuff.

And thus does Orthodoxy cease to be Orthodoxy.

Kirsten (whose priest is coming, cassock and all, to a party at her house on Saturday that will be filled with non-Orthodox. Fr. Marcus rocks!)

[Eusebios]

Some very excellent points from all. I truly find this one of the most difficult areas to balance within my life as an Orthodox Christian. I look forward to seeing what others may have to say on this subject.
In Xp,
Eusebios.

[vanshan]

Kristen, that is an excellent post. I think your outlook is balanced, but I'm afraid many would see even your comments as too conservative.

Basil

[Reader Nilus]

Cassocks and beards have NOTHING to do with faith, righteousness or what have you. We are known as Christians by our love, not what we wear, or how long our hair is or if we have beards. I met an archpriest once at his home, and he apologized to me for being in regular clothes. I told him; why apologize, you are a priest even in blue jeans.
Reader Nilus

[Momzilla]

Thanks, Basil!

RN, you are absolutely right--a cassock or a long skirt are useless if the person clothed in them is not living as Christ would have him/her live. And, by the same token, a christian should live in love regardless of his clothing. However, I think there is something to be said for the idea that how we appear on the outside is a witness to others--and, more importantly, a reminder to ourselves--of what should be found on the inside.

A friend of mine was talking with some guys a while back. One of the guys was wearing one of those "WWJD" bracelets. As it happened, every other word out of his mouth was a swear word (F***, s***, etc.). Johnny (my friend) asked this guy what is bracelet meant, as he genuinely didn't know. The guy replied, "It means, what would Jesus do?". Johnny thought about that for a second, and then he said, "Do you think Jesus would talk like you do?" The guy had to admit that no, Jesus probably wouldn't talk like that.

Ultimately, my point is this: our lives as Christians should be our primary witness. But our lifestyles are certainly not irrelevant to the manner in which we witness our faith.

[Michael the Iconographer]

As an iconographer once said in commenting on those who insist the only real icons are the ones written in Egg Tempera, you can make a religion out of anything, including eggs.

[Suzannah]

I think that the article, while a bit harsh, does make the point very well, that praxis without prayer is unfruitful and makes us look silly in the eyes of God.

A person can do all the prostrations they want, advocate "silence" and elimination of all sorts of the trappings of "worldliness" and it is not going to get them to heaven.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

I generally agree with the proposition that hyper-traditionalism is bad. However, I fail to see "hyper-traditionalism" in the exampls Mr. Cobb cites. Rather, what I see is an appropriate response to the call for Christians to be not of this world. I think it is appropriate that we, as Orthodox, identify ourselves as such through customs such as men wearing beards, women dressing modestly, and priests wearing their cassocks. Indeed, that last is particularly important. It's as though Mr. Cobb is saying "Go ahead, be Orthodox, but no one has to know about it."

If my priest doesn't need to wear his cassock outside of the church, well then I don't need to fast when I'm out with my friends, do I? And really, I should dress provocatively and speak immodestly when I'm among non-Orthodox so as not to appear "different." And really, who cares what I wear to church? It's all about what's in my heart, right? And while we're at it, so long as someone's heart is in the right place, we should let them take communion even if they're not Orthodox. And for heaven's sake, where are the pews? People can't really be expected to stand for an entire Liturgy. On second thought, the Liturgy is just too long. Let's get rid of the Antiphons and some of the repetetive stuff.

And thus does Orthodoxy cease to be Orthodoxy.

Kirsten (whose priest is coming, cassock and all, to a party at her house on Saturday that will be filled with non-Orthodox. Fr. Marcus rocks!)
Excellent post!:) I love it that some priests are unashamed of their calling. Of course cassocks and beards do not = righteousness. That is no reason to throw them out. We could pick apart all of the traditions of Orthodoxy and say the same thing. This does not mean it's okay for us to decide which ones we should throw out because "what's on the outside doesn't matter." Gosh, that sounds kind of gnostic, doesn't it?

[Reader Nilus]

I think that the article, while a bit harsh, does make the point very well, that praxis without prayer is unfruitful and makes us look silly in the eyes of God.

A person can do all the prostrations they want, advocate "silence" and elimination of all sorts of the trappings of "worldliness" and it is not going to get them to heaven.Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamozov tells of such a character in Fr Ferapont.
Reader Nilus

[Suzannah]

Dostoevsky in The Brothers Karamozov tells of such a character in Fr Ferapont.
Reader Nilus

I remember him!!!!! LOL! For me, he provided much needed comic relief, in a manner of speaking. Maybe we should suggest that book for our book club.

[Rilian]

One of may favorite verses from the Wisdom of Ben Sira is chapter 31 verse 27.

Wine is like life to men,
if you drink it in moderation.
What is life to a man who is without wine?
It has been created to make men glad

The old saying is of course that there is no zeal like that of a convert. This seems no less true in Orthodoxy as in any other religion. The most zealous of the converts are of course drawn to the Fundamentalist strain. The answers are the clearest, the break the most pronounced and the rejection of ones past most absolute.

The problem with fundamentalism, is that it is an extreme, just as liberalism is. Pascal (a Catholic - shock, horror, etc.) said “les extrêmes se touchent”, meaning that the extreme ends of anything touch each other. In their extremeness they become alike. They are not interested in consensus or the organic whole, just in the propagation of their own position and they are blind and disregarding of the positions of everyone else. In terms of fundamentalism, I think the extreme is to one of adherence to the rules above all else. Mercy is sacrificed first in order to maintain purity. Father Ferapont in the Brothers Karamazov is the classic study of this.

I didn’t think the article Vanshan posted was actually very well written at all, it seems nearly the opposite extreme to me. The verse I like in Ben Sira makes sense to me in two ways.

First, the wine is best in moderation. I don’t think this means we exercise a type of half-way Orthodoxy, disregard traditions, or only devote part of our lives to God; but that fully being Orthodox is cherishing the conciliarty and consensus of the the church and maintaining it as a living, growing and thriving tradition. It is keeping the “rules”, but never letting them stop the exercise of mercy and compassion.

Second, the wine has been made for us to be glad, and we should never lose the joy of Orthodoxy. Fr. Schmemann (who I know many regard as a liberal) made I think an excellent point in his for the Life of the World. What he said was that the one valid criticism that Nietzsche made of Christianity was that it had become a religion devoid of joy. That is the main pitfall of fundamentalism to me, because the people who fall in to fundamentalism seem profoundly devoid of joy and are always finding fault in everybody and everything.

I’m sorry this was so long, and I don’t wish to caste judgment on anyone. I deserve judgment above all myself. I don’t have the answers as to how we exercise moderation in the sense that I view it. We don’t have a magesterium, so Orthodoxy in many ways seems a balancing act with the extremes can easily disjoint.

Always yours in Christ - Andrew

[Reader Nilus]

I remember him!!!!! LOL! For me, he provided much needed comic relief, in a manner of speaking. Maybe we should suggest that book for our book club.Unfortunately, a great many people relate to Fr Farapont better than they do the Elder Zossima. Yes any Dostoevsky novel would be good in the book club.
Reader Nilus

[Suzannah]

Unfortunately, a great many people relate to Fr Farapont better than they do the Elder Zossima. Yes any Dostoevsky novel would be good in the book club.
Reader Nilus
Sorry for hijacking....maybe we could read about the real Elder Zosima? I have his book. ;)

[countrymousenc]

Probably a lot of fundamentalist-minded converts are drawn to Orthodoxy for its conservative (as compared to many Protestant churces) stances on several issues. They feel abandoned or betrayed by their former churches, and hungrily latch onto certain externals (such as beards and pony tails) to feel securely different than what they used to be. If they, as individuals, want to do so (with their spiritual fathers' blessings) there's nothing really wrong with it. It can go sour in two ways. They can either judge everyone else by their own personal standards, or, they can allow those little "t" traditions to give them false security while real sins go ignored.

One other thought related to this. While I was a catechumen, Father talked about some things that are done in Orthodox Churches uniquely in other countries. He said that there's nothing wrong with that, but that it wouldn't make sense to do it in our parish because it wouldn't mean anything to Americans, and even to most of the immigrants that are members there. (We have a mixture of immigrants from Russia, Ethiopia, Greece, Syria, etc.) We do use the pussy willows along with palms on Palm Sunday, because that's always been done in OCA churches and its explained to everyone, as well as the red eggs at Pascha. The important thing, though, is not to force what is particular to one region on another. Wherever Orthodoxy has gone, it has made allowances for cultural differences, as long as those differences aren't sinful.

I wonder, though, other than foods, what we in North America have that will become our unique "little t" traditions. It seems as though our "traditions" have become TV, shopping, and sports events. (Hmmm, maybe have the "blessing of the soccer ball"... ?)

[Suzannah]

Probably a lot of fundamentalist-minded converts are drawn to Orthodoxy for its conservative (as compared to many Protestant churces) stances on several issues. They feel abandoned or betrayed by their former churches, and hungrily latch onto certain externals (such as beards and pony tails) to feel securely different than what they used to be. If they, as individuals, want to do so (with their spiritual fathers' blessings) there's nothing really wrong with it. It can go sour in two ways. They can either judge everyone else by their own personal standards, or, they can allow those little "t" traditions to give them false security while real sins go ignored.

One other thought related to this. While I was a catechumen, Father talked about some things that are done in Orthodox Churches uniquely in other countries. He said that there's nothing wrong with that, but that it wouldn't make sense to do it in our parish because it wouldn't mean anything to Americans, and even to most of the immigrants that are members there. (We have a mixture of immigrants from Russia, Ethiopia, Greece, Syria, etc.) We do use the pussy willows along with palms on Palm Sunday, because that's always been done in OCA churches and its explained to everyone, as well as the red eggs at Pascha. The important thing, though, is not to force what is particular to one region on another. Wherever Orthodoxy has gone, it has made allowances for cultural differences, as long as those differences aren't sinful.

I wonder, though, other than foods, what we in North America have that will become our unique "little t" traditions. It seems as though our "traditions" have become TV, shopping, and sports events. (Hmmm, maybe have the "blessing of the soccer ball"... ?)

I think this is beautifully said. I think there is a psychological component to this that deserves examination. Thanks countrymouse! If you had rep enabled, you'd be covered.

[Oblio]

I wonder, though, other than foods, what we in North America have that will become our unique "little t" traditions. It seems as though our "traditions" have become TV, shopping, and sports events. (Hmmm, maybe have the "blessing of the soccer ball"... ?)



Breaking the Nativity fast for Thanksgiving
Driving at least 40 min. to church
Arguing about calendrical issues

[countrymousenc]

Breaking the Nativity fast for Thanksgiving
Driving at least 40 min. to church
Arguing about calendrical issues


Cynical, but a good start. :D

[Nickolai]

I find it insluting that he makes so many blanket staements. Am I "Uber-Traditional" because I think all clerics should have a beard and long hair? (I practice what I preach by the way, I am growing a beard and long hair while i wait to be tonsured a reader) Am I wrong to believe there is a standard to which clergy should follow?

The author of this Article seems to make the mistake of trying to "Americanize" Orthodoxy. Guess what Nicholas, CHRISTIANITY IS AN EASTERN RELIGION! It's not wrong for a convert to an eastern religion to try and be eastern.

That's my 2 cents.

[Oblio]

Am I "Uber-Traditional" because I think all clerics should have a beard and long hair? (I practice what I preach by the way, I am growing a beard and long hair while i wait to be tonsured a reader) Am I wrong to believe there is a standard to which clergy should follow?


No, but you need to ask yourself who sets the standard and why are you following it ?

IOW, you said, I think... and Am I wrong to believe .... What does your Bishop and by extension your priest believe ? If you are just going by what you believe (that the canons or Church teaches) you need IMO to reflect on what is required of you as a tonsured Reader in the Orthodox Church.

[Reader Nilus]

His Grace Bishop TIKHON is very traditional, but interestingly enough, he did not tell me to grow a long beard and to let my hair grow, when he tonsured me a reader. I do neither. Long hair and beards are fashion, and nothing more.
Reader Nilus

[Oblio]

His Eminence DMITRI told me that as a Reader of God's Holy Scripture, the most important thing I should do is to read it myself daily, to be familiar with it both in word and in content. Not so that I should interpret it or teach it, but so I would read it with authority and clarity. Didn't mention a thing about beards or ponytails.

[tizziale]

Orthodoxy may have survived in the East, but it is Universal. What do you say to the priests of ethnic groups who have trouble growing beards? I think that the Church is Apostolic because it keeps the teachings and traditions of the Apostles, and it has the ability to bend and not break.

rusty

[Nickolai]

No, but you need to ask yourself who sets the standard and why are you following it ?

IOW, you said, I think... and Am I wrong to believe .... What does your Bishop and by extension your priest believe ? If you are just going by what you believe (that the canons or Church teaches) you need IMO to reflect on what is required of you as a tonsured Reader in the Orthodox Church.

I was perhaps to vague. Nothing I do WRT my faith is done without the blessing of my Spiritual Father. Which is good for my humility and since we share similar beliefs we get along very well. I came to him to talk about beards and long hair, and he agreed with what I said. so I decided I would grow them since I was already training for readership (If that's a word?).

I know that this is not possible for many people. Some nationalities can't grow beards, I understand that. I just have an Ideal that I believe (Which just happens to be shared with my Spiriual Father). I will never judge a Priest, or any other cleric, based on their lack of facial hair, because it's not my place to, and I cannot know all of the circumstances.

Just like all of the other canons and "t" traditions, there must always be room for economy. I just happen to want to hold as much of the "t" traditions as i can since they help strengthen the Faith, they are however, not required for faith.


However, In regards to Nilus' comment about beards and long hair being a fashion trend I will give this.

"The beard signifies the courageous; the beard distinguishes the grown men, the earnest, the active, the vigorous. So that when we describe such, we say, he is a bearded man."
St. Augustine, Commentary on Psalm CXXXIII (133), 4th Century

"But the hair on the chin is not to be disturbed, as it gives no trouble, and lends to the face dignity and paternal terror."
St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor: Book III, AD 195

Metropolitan Gabriel (Petrov) of Petersburg and Novgorod was once going to a service, where the Archpriest Andrew Samborsky, whose beard was shaved off, was supposed to serve together with him. Seeing Samborsky, the Metropolitan said: "What kind of man are you? Our Church does not accept those who shave the beard. Get out!"
Little Russian Philokalia, Vol. 3, St. Herman. Pages 71-72

"You, young men, honor those with beards. And if there is a man of thirty with a beard and one of fifty, or sixty, or a hundred who shaves, place the one with the beard above the one who shaves, in Church as well as at the table. On the other hand, I don't say that a beard will get you to heaven, but good works will. And your dress should be modest, as well as your food and your drink. Your whole conduct should be Christian so that you will be a good example for others"
St. Kosmas Aitolos, 1700's AD


They take this much more extremly than I do.

[Xpycoctomos]

This was published on another message board:

Fr Raphael Vereshack

I know him! (well, I cyber know him ;)) Great Guy!

John

[Xpycoctomos]

I agree with giving due respect to small t traditions and following them whole heartedly (assuming the spirit of the law if kept in mind) but I would ask, with the cassocks and especially with the beards, if this has any relevance to the US/Aust/Canada/Mexico/UK as it did/does in Russia/Sebia etc..? While I think most smalls t's are important, honestly, I don't think the beards or wearing a cassock to the movies is. I'll make that clearer for anyone who was wondering about my intention: I believe that it is not important to have a beard and I don't think it matters one bit except for on a personal level. Facial hair has many different meanings to many different cultures. Yes, it is wrong to conform to the world on spiritual matters, but having a beard is a cultural, not spiritual matter. IN GENERAL, in our Anglo culture, the absense of facial hair makes the person seem more trustworthy/honest. (Name the last presidential candidate who had facial hair... Abe Lincoln?.. I'm sure there were others, but you get the point). This is important and may have a lot to do with why some priests decide to shave it off. (some can't even grow them and I for one look ridiculous in a beard... if you can call it that). The absense or presence of a beard in no way inhibits their function as a priest or their Orthodoxy here in the States. (In Russia this probably matters and so, a priest probably SHOULD have a beard as an obligation.) If they feel they can be a better priest with the beard, that is wonderful, and they should have a beard. But if they feel this would inhibit them in some way (perhaps it would make them less approachable as a priest/pastor, for example) then get out the Gilette and "off with it!"

The "West" is the next generation of Orthodoxy. I tend to see it like this: Greeks/Middle East (1st generation); Russia/Slavs (2nd generation- approx. 1000 years later) and the "West" 3rd generation/re-evagelized - 1000 years even later yet). The 2nd and 1st generations already have a settled small t tradition that should be respected and reveard. The slavs inherited it from the 1st and, over time, was tweaked to fit their culture and way of living (as it should). Now the West will need time (and patience from our brethern overseas) to "tweak" the traditions to better fit our cultures. We aren't Russian. We have inherited most of our spiritualiety form them and from the Greeks, but certain things need to adapt... and that's a good thing. We'll make mistakes, and so did the Russians I'm sure. But the Holy Spirit will prevail in the end. And honestly, I don't think He cares one bit about the beards, unless some priest shaves it off in order to be rebellious or divisive... but now we're talking about intention, not beards.

John

PS: I realize my generational order is oversimplistic, but it is meant to serve the point that Orthodoxy needs time to become an organic part of our culture as it did in Russia.

[Nickolai]

I agree. I just happen to believe that our Clergy should be "not of this world" and anything that seperates the Church from the wolrd is a good thing, In some cases this can include wearing a cassock all the time, and having long hair and a beard.

But I know that there are always times when an exception must (and should) be made.

[Xpycoctomos]

The author of this Article seems to make the mistake of trying to "Americanize" Orthodoxy. Guess what Nicholas, CHRISTIANITY IS AN EASTERN RELIGION! It's not wrong for a convert to an eastern religion to try and be eastern.

That's my 2 cents.I understand your point, and I agree with it... to a point. I prefer to say that it is a religion that was sent and first expressed itself in the East. Christianity is, though, not Eastern, but heavenly. It is to speak to all cultures and all times. It is good for us to recognize Orthodoxy's Eastern Flavor, but it is equally important for us to recognize that fundamentally, I (and many other converts, and increasinly cradles who grow up in the West) are not Eastern. Our culture is not eastern. It jsut isn't. There is no use fighting it. I think the "West" often becomes a four-letter word in Orthodox circles and that's ashame because many of us begin to despise where we come from. Right now, the west does not yet have a full expression of Orthodoxy, so we learn and mimic what we see in the East, but over the generations, Western Orthodoxy (as this becomes a reality) will take on its own, equally inspired features.

I may sound a bit iconoclastic re: the beards. Honestly, I'm not against them. I just don't understand why we feel we need to be russian... when we're not.

[Xpycoctomos]

I agree. I just happen to believe that our Clergy should be "not of this world" and anything that seperates the Church from the wolrd is a good thing, In some cases this can include wearing a cassock all the time, and having long hair and a beard.

But I know that there are always times when an exception must (and should) be made.First i just want to say that I honestly respect the fact that you feel priests should have beards whenever possible. I don't think that's crazy or stupid and (taking into account what I know of you from past posts) I can only assume that your heart is in the right place... perhaps more than mine.

I jsut wonder how "not of this world" a priest in a cassock is in traditionally Orthodox Countries where the robed priest on the streetsis often seen as a national symbol (like our flag in the US). Isn't there conformity on either side (robed preists in the East and "jeaned" priests in the US?). Also, why should we be even less "not of this world" with beards and such than a priest is? We all hold an euqally important part in the body of Christ. So why shouldn't we where big crosses on the outside or our shirts so that everyone knows that we are Orthodox? I have always been taught, actually, that we are to wear our crosses under the shirt so that we are reminded that it is not the outward symbols that make us Christian but rather our actions that make us "outside of this world." In fact I was told that that is why we have nothing like Ash Wednesday in the East because it requires and outward symbol, so nothing like that developped. By the way, I'm not saying that outward symbols are bad... I'm just wondering how necessary it is from an Orthodox point of view that we have outward symbols.

It's funny, becuase I may read some article and decide two weeks later that beards are important. I am certainly willing to be convinced.

Nikolai... You didn't sound offended in any of your posts, but i jsut want to apologize if I came off too harsh. I honestly respect your position and you probably know more than I do. God bless brother.

John

[katherine2001]

I find it insluting that he makes so many blanket staements. Am I "Uber-Traditional" because I think all clerics should have a beard and long hair? (I practice what I preach by the way, I am growing a beard and long hair while i wait to be tonsured a reader) Am I wrong to believe there is a standard to which clergy should follow?

The author of this Article seems to make the mistake of trying to "Americanize" Orthodoxy. Guess what Nicholas, CHRISTIANITY IS AN EASTERN RELIGION! It's not wrong for a convert to an eastern religion to try and be eastern.

That's my 2 cents.
I would ask you this, Nikolai? Do you automatically equate long hair and beards with holiness? Do you tend to think that a priest who has long hair, a beard, and wears a cassock all the time must be more holy than one who has short hair, is clean shaven, and doesn't wear a cassock 24 hours a day? I've known many uber-traditionalists who do, unfortunately. Holiness comes from the inside out. There are extremely holy men, including priests, who are clean shaven or have short hair. Godi is much more concerned with them actually being holy. The truth is much more important than appearances. The Pharisees all looked great on the outside, but were extremely filthy on the inside. If you remember, Jesus told them to clean up the inside before worrying about the outside. Personally, I care much more about the type of person my priest is than whether he has hair halfway down his back and a beard halfway down his chest. I remember an archimandrite saying one time that some of the Godliest priests he has known (and he has been a priest for at least 30 years) have had short hair and been clean shaven. Also, many priests have to work secular jobs in order to support their families and therefore cannot have extremely long hair and beards. Also, some men just can't grow a good beard. Does that make them any less holy?

Also, the problem with acting Eastern when you are not from an Eastern background is that you are pretending to be something that you're not. Also, Americanizing Orthodoxy in America is TRADITIONAL to Orthodoxy. That is what the Orthodox Church has always done when they go into new territory. They put the services in the language of the people, and they bring as much of the culture into the Church that they can possibly do. They bring those things that are compatlble with Orthodoxy and put them under the Church and bless those things. That is what they did in the Eastern European countries. It's what they did in Alaska.

I am not either Eastern European or Middle Eastern in nationality. God did not have me born into a family of those backgrounds. To force me to become like that in order to the Eastern Orthodox is to make me try to be something that God didn't CREATE me to be. As much as I love Russia and the Russian people, God didn't have me born into a family of Russian descent. Why should I dress and act like one? God created me to be mostly English, Scottish, and German. He had me be born and raised in America. God has a reason for all that He does. He didn't have me be conceived into my particular family and culture on a whim. He had a particular plan. You don't have to be Eastern to practice Orthodox praxis. You can be an Orthodox of whatever nationality and practice Orthodox Praxis. God and the Church didn't create praxis for just Eastern people. However, to expect people to become Eastern in order to become Orthodox goes against what the Church has always done and is basically saying (at least IMHO) that what God made you to be was a mistake and now has to be corrected.

[Xpycoctomos]

***You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to katherine2001 again.***

Great post! Especially the last paragraph about not being Russian.

In Nikolai's defense, I don't think that he was trying to say that the beard made the man holy or that it was somehow equally important to how clean one is on the inside. I think he feels that beard should be kept to act as a reflection of what is going on on the inside. If the priest is not spiritually clean, but wears a symbol that suggests otherwise, the first action is not to get rid of the symbol but rather to get rid of the sinful baggage and begin to fullfill what that beard traditionally meant - someone set apart for God's word. Nikolai is *assuming* (as we all should) that the priest is already trying to keep clean on the inside and that if he is not, the beard is not the problem but rather the sin. We don't take off the cross when we fall short of God's Will, but we use that cross as a reminder of how we SHOULD be.

In writing this, I am understanding Nikolai's plight a bit better (although, nikolai, correct me if I went wrong anywhere). Maybe treating th beard as an outward symbol is the wrong way to look at it. It does that, but this may be secondary. It may be moreso to remind the priest of who he is and the office he is to fulfill. Beards are not comfortable (except I imagine they are nice in those Russian winters), they itch at times and you have to be careful when you eat. Perhaps in the same way rumbling stomachs remind us that we are disciples during the fasts, itchy beards remind priests that they are set apart, in a special way, for God.

Hmmm... What do others think? Any good articles on the historical/theological reasoning behind bearded priests? I'll scroll back up... maybe I missed some. I would be interested in seeing this.

In Christ,

John

I need to get a life! see y'all tomorrow or the next day ;)

[Nickolai]

John,

You've pretty much got down what I believe about this subject. In a way, I see the growing of a beard and the adherance to the "Traditional Orthodox Clergy Look" as a way to help a clergyman overcome certain passions. This may sould strange, but look at fasting. We have a routine when we fast. During a non-fast/non-feast period we fast on wedensdays and fridays. Part of the reason is because this creates a certian dicipline we follow that is good for our souls (We give the body what it needs, rather that what it desires). To a degree, that dicipline is the same if a clergyman choses to be traditionaly dressed. As you mentioned, beards are ichy, (I'm just learning that now, and boy does it suck sometimes) But I look at it as another dicipline to overcome my flesh. And this helps me spiritually. If I can dicipline myself physically, that makes it easier to dicipline myself spiritually.

Note that in this post I am not equating fasting to traditional dress. One is far more important for Spiritual growth than the other. (as one is not truly necessary).

Also, Just as I would not judge anyone's holiness if they did not fast, I would not judge a clergyman's holiness for not dressing traditionaly.

Don't worry John, you didn't offend me. It takes a LOT to do that :) But I am sorry If I have offended you or anyone else here. I ask you to forgive this horrible sinner.

[xenia]

seeking a total break with their former identity

Yep, that's it.

:thumbsup:

[Reader Nilus]

For some of us a break with the past would mean to have a crew cut and be clean shaven. Some of us children of the 60's long hair and beards were the fashion of the times.
Reader Nilus

[xenia]

I have an Ultra Trad friend, who I love very much. However, she can be difficult. Whenever I talk with her, she appears to weigh everything I say for traditionalism. I say something... there's a pause... she either responds with enthusiasm or with a hmmmmm... The result is I tend to avoid her a little, especially if I'm feeling low-energy. She does dress like a Bulgarian peasant woman, but on her the look is adorable.

[Reader Nilus]

I just wonder how the ultra traditionalists would survive when such things would not be possible. What will happen when the Liturgy will not be celebrated in the great temples but in a prison cell, with what is at hand? When the priest will not be vested but be using a rope or string as his stole? The externals can be a real hinderence and to dwell on them will make it so.
Reader Nilus

[vanshan]

This has been a better dialogue about these issues than some threads in the past. I think everyone on both sides is making great points. (No, I'm not running for office). I think we just have some misunderstandings about each other.

I don't think any traditionalists believe that holiness somehow resides in a man's beard, or under a woman's scarf; nor are they hoping to make the U.S. resemble 19th century Russia (or present day Athos). I agree with the point given that beards and headcoverings and other externals are about discipline, submission, and piety. Orthodoxy is full of external symbolism, which visually expresses our inner faith. Are these all unecessary? What about icons? Are they essential? I think submitting to these piuos customs are humbling, especially in American culture where beards are unfavorable and a woman wearing a headcovering is seen as oppressed. These things send a message that is exactly counter to popular culture. They challenge the normal American values of "looking good" and "doing what you want."

I don't believe any of you who are more modern believe we should throw out all external symbols as non-essentials. Of course, loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God with your whole hearts is more important than running around in robes and strictly maintaining an Eastern protocol. Also, we have seen adaptation and economy when practicing the faith in places where certain things are not available to us--I've even heard laity can perform baptisms in limited circumstances if a priest is unavailable. We can adapt to circumstances, but we should at least examine why we are changing these traditions and examine why we even have these traditions before shucking them off. My 2 1/2 shillings.

Basil

[countrymousenc]

I don't believe any of you who are more modern believe we should throw out all external symbols as non-essentials. Of course, loving your neighbor as yourself and loving God with your whole hearts is more important than running around in robes and strictly maintaining an Eastern protocol. Also, we have seen adaptation and economy when practicing the faith in places where certain things are not available to us--I've even heard laity can perform baptisms in limited circumstances if a priest is unavailable. We can adapt to circumstances, but we should at least examine why we are changing these traditions and examine why we even have these traditions before shucking them off. My 2 1/2 shillings.

I'm reminded of one of Jesus' remarks about the Pharisees, in which He mentioned that they tithed their mint and cumin, but ignored weightier matters of the Law, justice and mercy. Then He said, about tithing their herbs, "These things they should have done, without ignoring the others." Doing the first was not the problem. Wearing beards, pony tails, cassocks, or scarves is not the problem, leaving out other things, or looking down our noses at those who don't, or doing those things for the wrong reasons, is the problem.

[Xpycoctomos]

***You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to vanshan again.***

***You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to countrymouse again.***

Nicely said to the both of you.

[Theophorus]

I find the article a little niave. First of all I think he misses the point on beards and headcoverings. In the monestary I attend there are no mirrors in the bathroom (it is painted over). My Father wears his cassock everywhere, and has the beard. Basically, everything he does in this matter is to re-enforce a state of humility. Now it could do the opposite, but the author does not state whether this is the case, and therefore condemns the praxis of humility. He also identifies fundamentalism mainly with appearance, which in my opinion, is a mistake. Even though they may go hand in hand, this is not always the case. He basically reduces fundamentalism to many areas of praxis, and in that sense I believe he is in error. Fundamentalism is not praxis, but the acceptance of certain Christian doctrine, ussually having nothing to do with appearance. In the protestant community, many jean wearing, t-shirted attendies are extremely fundamental in their beliefs whereas, a lot of hat and dress wearing attendies would be classified as liberal.

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

However, how can one distinguish the difference between the Truth, Traditions, and (little t) traditions?

[gzt]

The Truth is not an abstract idea, it is the Person of Christ.

As for Tradition, see what Elder Cleopa has to say: http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_cleopa_holy_tradition.htm

[Theophorus]

Well, we have "the mind of Christ".
The mind of Christ and interpretation of scripture, which tradition upholds and reveals, is not up to one man's efforts or genius, but a product of the Church and it's bishops, priests, deacons, laity, etc. guided by the Holy spirit.
The important concept here is that no one man has all of the answers, but the Church as a whole does, each member playing its part, with the ecumenical councils and scripture, interpreted, being the highest determination of dogma.
In orthodoxy there are many instances of economy, or maybe more simply stated as mercy or allowance. also there are areas yet to be determined.
Within the subject of the OP there are a number of positions on head coverings, beards etc. where the application of a theological precept is left to individual parishes, jurisdictions and their view of the need in that area. It all works together, monastics, clergy, laity, with caution and humility and unity being the guiding principles.

I asked my spiritual Father why at the monestary women wore coverings but at my parish, they did not (except one). He laughed and said that if the Priest made them, they would probably "toss him out".
It is an interesting and dynamic balance of parishes, monastics, clergy and bishops, and the general consensus of the laity, but it all seems to work.

[ufonium2]

The OP has reinforced what I've always known: That those who preach tolerance can be completely intolerant towards people who don't share their beliefs. You want people to accept your lack of a scraggly beard, yet you openly judge them for having a scraggly beard? Way to go, Captain Hypocrisy.

[vanshan]

Way to go, Captain Hypocrisy.

The sarcasm may be inappropriate, but this would be nice to throw around in the GH forum. :P

[Theophorus]

The OP has reinforced what I've always known: That those who preach tolerance can be completely intolerant towards people who don't share their beliefs. You want people to accept your lack of a scraggly beard, yet you openly judge them for having a scraggly beard? Way to go, Captain Hypocrisy.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ufonium2 again



Yes I have noticed this trend also, inside and outside of the church.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ufonium2 again

Yes I have noticed this trend also, inside and outside of the church.
Covered.:thumbsup: