Another INteresting Article

[JewishHeart]

© March, 2001 By Asher Intrater


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God designed man to live with him in a relationship that is both holy and loving (Ephesians 1:4). We started in that direction in the Garden of Eden. However, the sin of Adam and Eve ruined that. The sin itself was an act of disobedience. They broke the one law that God had given them. When they sinned, they did something wrong.

However, the sin effected not only what they did, but who they were. It was a matter of both heart and actions. In order to correct the relationship between God and man, God would eventually have to deal with both issues, our heart and our actions. Therefore, the redemptive plan of God would have to comprise two parts, one for the heart and one for the actions.

The law (the Torah), or the commandments of Scripture, deal with our actions. The cross (the death and resurrection of Yeshua) deals with our heart. The law came through Moses, and grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah (John 1:17). Ultimately, our heart and our actions need to come into unity with the heart and will of God.

In a certain sense, the law started with just two commandments, to love God and to love our neighbor (Deut. 6:11, Lev. 19:1. However, as the people continued to sin, the more specific prohibitions of the Ten Commandments had to be added to make clear what it meant to love God or our neighbor. After that, parashat mishpatim (Exodus 21-23), was added to give even further detail to the Ten Commandments.

This reminds me of the time when I served on the staff of Montgomery County Covenant Academy (a Christian junior/senior high school). At first, we tried to go without a dress code, simply telling the students we expected them to dress modestly and neatly. Apparently, some of the students had a different idea from us as to the meaning of the words “modest” and “neat”.

After that, we told the girls that their skirts had to cover their knees. Some of the girls came up with the method of curling up their skirts around the belt when they were around the boys, to shorten the length, and then pulling them down when they were around the administrative staff. We found it difficult to itemize every expectation of a dress code.

The ultra orthodox rabbi that I studied with in Jerusalem used to tell us proudly that the beautiful thing about rabbinnic Judaism was that there was a specific law (halacha) for every single action of the day. I remember studying with him the laws concerning whether to put the right shoe or the left shoe on first in the morning, then whether to tie the left shoe or the right shoe first.

It may sound comforting to think that there is a specific law for every single human action. However, that is practically impossible. Let’s say a human being could make 100 choices in one hour. By the end of two hours he could make 100 x 100 decisions. At the end of ten hours there would be 100 to the tenth power. Now multiply that by five billion inhabitants on the earth. I don’t know if even God can make that many laws. If He could, I don’t think He wants to.

To a certain extent, that is a dilemma of the rabbinic or halachic approach to the Torah. The rabbis know that the Torah in and of itself is incomplete. In this we agree with them. The purpose of the talmud (mishnah and gemarah) is to complete the Torah by adding further details and more laws to answer every situation.

However, we have a different solution. That solution comes within Scripture itself and is part of the original purpose of the law. The law was never meant to function by itself but rather to be part of a process that includes a change of heart.

There are two options to completing the Torah. The first option is the rabbinnic method of adding an almost infinite number of halacha. The second option is to have a change of heart, where the purpose of the law is internalized, and a person has an internal motivation and guidance to cooperate with the heart of the Lawmaker.

This internalization of the law is the purpose of the New Covenant. Jer.31:33 states, “I will put my law inside them and write it on their hearts.” We meditate on Scriptures to understand the heart of love and holiness of God our father. It was never His purpose to add an infinite number of sub-laws and statutes to force behavioral control over every minute of our lives.

First God confronts us with moral law and then He seeks a change in our heart. The law is given first externally and then internally. These two stages come in two covenants. The first stage is the Mosaic or the Abrahamic Covenant. That covenant then yields or leads into the New Covenant to deal with our heart.

Yeshua did not come to do away with the law, but to strengthen it by writing it in our hearts. This is the purpose of the Sermon on the Mount. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill” - Matthew 5:17.

In the Sermon on the Mount Yeshua reviews the Ten Commandments and explains the internal heart motivation behind the commandments. In this way He is fulfilling the meaning and purpose of the commandments. He is bringing the law into its second stage, “the New Covenant”, which was promised by Jeremiah.

We, as Messianic Jews (and in fact all believers in Yeshua), do not reject any of the law. In fact, we are all to keep the law. However, our approach to the law and our understanding of how to keep the law is different from the halachic approach. Instead of concentrating on the legal particulars, we deal with the heart motivation and moral principles of the law.

The death and resurrection of Yeshua brings us to full repentance and obedience to the will of God. The example of Yeshua shows us how to live in the love and holiness of God. The person of the Holy Spirit guides us into all wisdom and truth. The power of the Holy Spirit enables us to fulfill the righteous requirements and moral purposes of the law (Romans 8:4).

[simchat_torah]

problem is this entire article is based on this one quote:
The law (the Torah), or the commandments of Scripture, deal with our actions. The cross (the death and resurrection of Yeshua) deals with our heart.

quite untrue. The Torah deals with matters of the heart. It is not a dry strict code that must be followed blindly, but is living and breathing.

The second major flaw is contained in this statement:
The rabbis know that the Torah in and of itself is incomplete.
I have never heard a Rabbi say this.

I hate it when people make stuff up merely to justify their claims.

There are two options to completing the Torah. The first option is the rabbinnic method of adding an almost infinite number of halacha. The second option is to have a change of heart, where the purpose of the law is internalized, and a person has an internal motivation and guidance to cooperate with the heart of the Lawmaker.
The Torah is complete. Again, this is based on a christian's view of what Jews think, rather than asking what is the Jewish mindset. The rule for making halacha is:
"A light (or easy to do) halacha shows the Heart of G-d, while a heavy (hard to follow) halacha shows the heart of man."

It was never His purpose to add an infinite number of sub-laws and statutes to force behavioral control over every minute of our lives.
I agree with this statement. Most halacha today is not "light" and we need to evaluate its worthiness.
Howeve, I disagree with someone so christian in theology coming in calling themseleves "Jewish Heart" and continously showing obvious contempt for Judaism, Rabbis, and the Jews.

First God confronts us with moral law and then He seeks a change in our heart.
This division of law (moral, ritual, etc) is not made within the Torah, can not be found in scripture, or even in Judaism. This is purely a christian teaching. All of the mitzvot within the Torah seek to change our heart. All of the Torah points to the heart of G-d.

The law is given first externally and then internally.
Does this sound familiar: It is not out of your grasp... you do not have to swim to the other side of the sea. It is close to you, within your grasp, within your reach. Do this for it is life.

[INOrder]

Hello Jewish heart,

I believe that this should no doubt be enough with the Traditional Jew bashing writings.
I ask you to be very aware of what you say at all times.
If you do not agree with us then discuss with us.

I ask this of you in humility.
This man Asher speaks as if we practice our daily walk with out any attachment to the heart(mind in Hebrew) for this is the way we focus and attach to HaShem by these Mtzvot (attachments). I am sure you know this better than I.
And If you do, why do you continually write as if we Jews are ignorant and robotic peoples or quote and stand for those that also think like this?

I commend you on recognizing the merit of your messiah, but that is what it is- a recognizing of his merit, as we Jews recognize the merit of Avinu YitsHak.
(Simchat Torah has explained this very well in his commentary concerning this)
We do not focus our sole being for living on the Akedah, but we do recognize it as this is how we exist and we recall his merit before HASHEM each day.
This is Masorah, and I am beginning to believe that this is exactly what the New Testament writers were telling the world about.
The portion of Jeremiah I believe is an alluding to the tefillin.
The heart was considered the mind and so a person would bind the Torah on their left arm, the box containing the torah would be facing the heart, this is to serve as a sign, and the Tefillin between the eyes a memorial [to remember].

Jeremiah only speaks of the same covenant as the one Jeremiah had always followed, the religion sent to Israel on Sinai.

I hope that you have a change of heart concerning us, because I do not believe that your currect practice and belief is a healthy one.
But that is only what I believe.

also, in the article mr.Asher mentioned that he does not believe that G'd has laws for every action and he wouldnt want to.
That is his personal assumption, and I beg to differ.
the universe itself is held and governed by laws, in everything the universe does, so my guesstimated view is that "why not humans who are also a part of the universe?"

bye

[simchat_torah]

I believe that this should no doubt be enough with the Traditional Jew bashing writings.

No kidding INOrder. I too am sick and tired of this anti-Jewish rhetoric... and especially by someone with the nickname "Jewish Heart".

[INOrder]

Hello Simchat Torah

We Jews have gone through so many pressures and stressful times that I can understand what led Jews to become christians, buddhists, new-agers, agnostics, athiests, and even muslims. Many of them were Traditional Rabbis aswell.

It hurts when they fight their brothers who genuinly find the truth in the faith of their fathers while the rest of the brothers that left the faith are trying to retell and reteach what they believe the truth to be.
A shame to our name!
But I understand, and it is in my hopes that those of us who are Jews and do not truely have a Jewish heart, that we recieve one by the Mercy of Ha-Shem.

bye

[simchat_torah]

If I remember correctly, Jewish Heart is not a Jew but a christian youth pastor living in Israel. I think his "jewishheart" nick name refers to the fact that he loves the Jews, not that he himself is jewish.

[INOrder]

I am corrected

[simchat_torah]

I wasn't trying to 'correct' you achi... just didn't want you to think he was Jewish when in fact he isn't.


shalom,
yafet

[JewishHeart]

simchat,

you are right and are wrong.

1.) I live in Israel

2.) I am a youth pastor of a MESSIANIC CONGREGATION together with my Israeli Jewish wife.

3.) I am a Gentile

4.) I do not consider myself a christian, although I don't consider being a christian as something bad or wrong, I consider myself messianic (gentile).

5.) I DID NOT WRITE THIS ARTICLE, but a MAJOR MESSIANIC JEWISH LEADER wrote this article.

[Plan 9]

I see nothing Messianic in nature about this article. It seems identical in its ideas to many Gentile Christian sermons; so much so as to have a generic quality. Am I mistaken?

At my boarding school, we unbuttoned the waistlines of our supposedly too-short skirts and partly unzipped them before kneeling before our housemother to prove that our skirts touched the floor, and then later readjusted them on the way to our public high school so that we wouldn't be made laughing stocks there for wearing our skirts too long.
As someone who was struck as a girl at that school for unintentionally disobeying entirely irrational rules, which I was sometimes unaware existed until too late, I find that analogy particularly oppressive.
I freely admit my ignorance, but surely G-d's laws are more joyful and beneficial to follow than man's? Or am I mistaken again?

[koilias]

I see nothing Messianic in nature about this article. It seems identical in its ideas to many Gentile Christian sermons; so much so as to have a generic quality. Am I mistaken?

At my boarding school, we unbuttoned the waistlines of our supposedly too-short skirts and partly unzipped them before kneeling before our housemother to prove that our skirts touched the floor, and then later readjusted them on the way to our public high school so that we wouldn't be made laughing stocks there for wearing our skirts too long.
As someone who was struck as a girl at that school for unintentionally disobeying entirely irrational rules, which I was sometimes unaware existed until too late, I find that analogy particularly oppressive.
I freely admit my ignorance, but surely G-d's laws are more joyful and beneficial to follow than man's? Or am I mistaken again?The best of what we can see about following G-d's laws is expressed:

Love Adonai thy G-d
With all thy lev (thought)
All thy nefesh (feeling)
And all thy me'od (unction; will; living)

In all these things! Don't call it "law" call it "love". JH, all your hevreh in this forum look not to love the Law but to love HaShem. The expression of following the Law is their Love for HaShem! In all their thought, feeling and wills! Why do you seek to tear down that most sacred expression that wells up from their innermost being? Achi, your posts here seek to tear down, not to lift up their love for HaShem! Why don't you see this?? Achi, where is your love? They are only following through what they honestly love and learn about. They that follow through are building their house on the rock, and not sitting on their learning like the man who builds his house on sand.

Plan 9, yes, the difference between legalism and love is easy to spot. Doing HaShem's will, thus, brings no deeper joy...I would give my life for the woman I love, everything I own I would give to her, the things that give her joy. Likewise I desire to give my all to HaShem, to do the things that I know give Him joy!

[simchat_torah]

I think I only dispute one item:

1.) I live in Israel
I know. I did not say otherwise.

2.) I am a youth pastor of a MESSIANIC CONGREGATION together with my Israeli Jewish wife.
I know.
3.) I am a Gentile
I know.
4.) I do not consider myself a christian, although I don't consider being a christian as something bad or wrong, I consider myself messianic (gentile).
I suppose since messianic Judaism is very messy, and anyone can claim this title, no matter what they believe (considering there is no central set of leadership) that you may call yourself a mesianic.... but none of your theology so far lines up with anything remotely Jewish. So far, all you have expressed on this forum is contempt for Jewish Rabbis through history and anti-Judaic rhetoric. I find it hard to accept someone in Messianic Judaism who rejects all things Jewish. Just seems a bit odd to me.
As well, anyone who adheres to Judaism, the torah and its principles, is labelled a "Judiazer" by you. So, call yourself whatever you want, as Messyanic Judaism is quite open-ended in its definition.
5.) I DID NOT WRITE THIS ARTICLE, but a MAJOR MESSIANIC JEWISH LEADER wrote this article.
I know. I don't think I stated otherwise, did I? I understand you didn't write it, but you certainly submit to it and think something worthy of it if you are going to start a thread using this article. It does show, however, your heart in the matter.

shalom,
yafet

[simchat_torah]

I see nothing Messianic in nature about this article.

Me either. It only expresses ignorance and contempt towards Judaism.

This does not show 'love', but rather despises the Jews.

*sigh*

[Plan 9]

[/color]

Me either. It only expresses ignorance and contempt towards Judaism.

This does not show 'love', but rather despises the Jews.

*sigh*
It very much confused me as a young teenager to be taught this about well over half of what was supposed to be "my" Bible, along with the contempt showed to the Jewish people, only to have these supposedly "empty laws" replaced by ones which bordered on insanity; if there were reasons why we couldn't wear our skirts to the middle of our knees, say "I'm full" when finishing a meal, or eating fried chicken with our fingers, we were never told them; we were only punished. I made my best attempt to find meaning in them; to be a good girl, but I couldn't obey this new set of "Christian" laws, no matter how hard I tried.
I left the school, now unable to believe much of what my good parents had previously taught me, a rebellious teenager, inwardly certain that I was hopelessly unworthy of G-d's love, that G-d hated me, and that I had somehow commited terrible crimes, the nature of which hadn't been revealed to me.

Later I came to faith in a Gentile church were I was taught that the G-d of Yeshua is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but for the 32 years since, I have have heard these same sentiments preached again and again in other churches, and read these ideas countless times.
Frankly, I found it shocking and bewildering to see them presented by someone claiming to be a youth pastor with a "Jewish heart", and asserted to be the words of a "MAJOR MESSIANIC LEADER". (Someone should perhaps explain to him that "shouting" isn't polite?)

I thank you and Koilias for taking the time and trouble to reassure me of what I already know. :blush:

[JewishHeart]

Simchat,

The guy who wrote this article probably knows alot more about oral Torah than most in here as he studied in yeshiva and has been in the messianic movement for years. Have you ever heard of Beth Messiah in Maryland?

Anyways,

I have never torn down any of my Jewish bretheren who don't believe in Yeshua who keep oral Torah. I have never torn down any messianic who was priorly orthodox and as a new believer still felt led to continue with rabbinic practice. I actually only tore down oral Torah itself and questioned messianics ( who were formerly not orthodox) who practice it.

BY the way,

How am I not representing anything Jewish?

I don't celebrate Christmas (although I don't paganize those who do), do you paganize them?

I don't celebrate Easter ( again I don't paganize those who do) , do you paganize them?

I celebrate all the Jewish feasts ( and even keep some tradition which I know comes from oral torah, but I don't consider it binding), do you consider it binding?

I keep BIBLICAL KOSHER ( I don't seperate between milk and meat though cuz its oral torah)

I go to synagogue at occasion with my family here in israel

I keep shabbatt and light candles ( I don't light fire on shabbatt, but do drive on shabbatt)

how can you say I don't look Jewish at all?

I have a plethora of unbelieving Jewish friends ( and I don't always befriend to evangelize)

80 percent of unbelieving Jews in Israel agree with my opinion about oral torah

how does what i say not look jewish?

[JewishHeart]

Moral Law and the Holy Spirit my friend is what counts

[JewishHeart]

A Great website www.tikkunministries.org

[Henaynei]

I have never torn down any of my Jewish bretheren who don't believe in Yeshua who keep oral Torah. I have never torn down any messianic who was priorly orthodox and as a new believer still felt led to continue with rabbinic practice. I actually only tore down oral Torah itself and questioned messianics ( who were formerly not orthodox) who practice it. You left out of the list who you never tore down - and truthfully so - those seasoned believers who have deliberately and specifically chosen to take on the cloak of Torah and the Oral Traditions ;) Your statement toward those of us who have chosen to take on the cloak of Torah and the Oral Traditions has at times been quite heavy handed indeed.

Truth in posting is a good thing :)

80 percent of unbelieving Jews in Israel agree with my opinion about oral torah

how does what i say not look jewish?
:D LOL - HEhehehehe - gafaw!! :D

80% of the Jews in Israel are non-believing (in G-d, period) AND are grossly secular and have little to no idea what is in the Torah, much less the Oral Traditions. ^_^ Emulating them is not exactly a good barometer of "Jewishness."

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Plan9,

I think its really cool to actually see someone go through a transition in their life. Normally, people come here after becoming settled in their ways (whichever way that may be). I just love seeing someone come to new revelations and the excitement they have in their words.

Anywho...
only to have these supposedly "empty laws" replaced by ones which bordered on insanity;
Funny thing is, there are only 613 mitzvot in the Torah, and over 1,000 in the "NT". Strange how the old testament is referred to as bondage and chains.

;)

shalom,
yafet

[ShirChadash]

It very much confused me as a young teenager to be taught this about well over half of what was supposed to be "my" Bible, along with the contempt showed to the Jewish people, only to have these supposedly "empty laws" replaced by ones which bordered on insanity; if there were reasons why we couldn't wear our skirts to the middle of our knees, say "I'm full" when finishing a meal, or eating fried chicken with our fingers, we were never told them; we were only punished. I made my best attempt to find meaning in them; to be a good girl, but I couldn't obey this new set of "Christian" laws, no matter how hard I tried.
I left the school, now unable to believe much of what my good parents had previously taught me, a rebellious teenager, inwardly certain that I was hopelessly unworthy of G-d's love, that G-d hated me, and that I had somehow commited terrible crimes, the nature of which hadn't been revealed to me.

Later I came to faith in a Gentile church were I was taught that the G-d of Yeshua is the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but for the 32 years since, I have have heard these same sentiments preached again and again in other churches, and read these ideas countless times.
Frankly, I found it shocking and bewildering to see them presented by someone claiming to be a youth pastor with a "Jewish heart", and asserted to be the words of a "MAJOR MESSIANIC LEADER". (Someone should perhaps explain to him that "shouting" isn't polite?)

I thank you and Koilias for taking the time and trouble to reassure me of what I already know. :blush:

OH Plan 9 -- have I told you today that you're wonderful? :hug:

[Pray4Isrel]

Simchat,

The guy who wrote this article probably knows alot more about oral Torah than most in here as he studied in yeshiva and has been in the messianic movement for years. Have you ever heard of Beth Messiah in Maryland?

Anyways,

I have never torn down any of my Jewish bretheren who don't believe in Yeshua who keep oral Torah. I have never torn down any messianic who was priorly orthodox and as a new believer still felt led to continue with rabbinic practice. I actually only tore down oral Torah itself and questioned messianics ( who were formerly not orthodox) who practice it.

BY the way,

How am I not representing anything Jewish?

I don't celebrate Christmas (although I don't paganize those who do), do you paganize them?

I don't celebrate Easter ( again I don't paganize those who do) , do you paganize them?

I celebrate all the Jewish feasts ( and even keep some tradition which I know comes from oral torah, but I don't consider it binding), do you consider it binding?

I keep BIBLICAL KOSHER ( I don't seperate between milk and meat though cuz its oral torah)

I go to synagogue at occasion with my family here in israel

I keep shabbatt and light candles ( I don't light fire on shabbatt, but do drive on shabbatt)

how can you say I don't look Jewish at all?

I have a plethora of unbelieving Jewish friends ( and I don't always befriend to evangelize)

80 percent of unbelieving Jews in Israel agree with my opinion about oral torah

how does what i say not look jewish?That's ok, JewishHeart.
I get called the same thing all the time! :D
Evidently, what we do is not enough in the eyes of most here, though we seem to be the most active when it comes to spreading the Good News :)

[Pray4Isrel]

All I can do here is show people that I love them and respect them, and pray they'll do the same in return.
There are two sides to Messianic Judaism:
Those that practice the Law in an Orthodox manner, and those that don't. (LOL!)
It is not for me to decide who is to be which way.
I simply do in my life as I feel HaShem is calling me to do.
I don't knock those that are more Orthodox, I don't knock those who aren't.
I have chosen to "work out my Salvation with fear and trembling" and leave you all on your own to do the same.
One thing remains: I may be rejected by the church and by most Messianics, but I have a place in heaven where Yeshua will accept me with open arms... and when He does, I'd like to sit and talk about everything!
For every one person that rejects me, there are a scattered few in many a foreign country that have accepted me as I am. And that's all it takes to keep me going.

[simchat_torah]

The guy who wrote this article probably knows alot more about oral Torah than most in here as he studied in yeshiva and has been in the messianic movement for years. Have you ever heard of Beth Messiah in Maryland?

Yes, I have.

Now, about this guy... Don't make me laugh. His article here only expounds his absolute and abounding ignorance concerning Oral Torah. Just because someone can say a lot of nasty things about the Jews and their beliefs, doesn't mean they know squat.

probably knows alot more about oral Torah than most in here as he studied in yeshiva
He studied in a self proclaimed messianic yeshivah. That, my friend, means absolutely nothing.... nothing. But, if you think he is so

Oh, and btw, Beth Messiah in Rockville Maryland calls itself a 'church', not a synagogue. It is a part of the federation of Messianic churches, and Asher Intrater goes by "pastor" under Dan Juster's leadership at Tikkun. For the pastor of a church to speak 'authoritatively' on Oral Torah is a joke. Its a christian church with a few flavors of Jewish things. Just because these christians wear a kippah and tzitzit doesn't mean they know anything about Judaism, and HOW DARE HE "speak" for the Jews as he did in this article.

have never torn down any of my Jewish bretheren who don't believe in Yeshua who keep oral Torah.
except multiple times here on CF.

I have never torn down any messianic who was priorly orthodox and as a new believer still felt led to continue with rabbinic practice.
Again, except here on CF.


How am I not representing anything Jewish?
Just because you wear a kippah doesn't make you express a form of Judaism.

I don't celebrate Christmas (although I don't paganize those who do), do you paganize them?

I don't celebrate Easter ( again I don't paganize those who do) , do you paganize them?
I don't paganize anyone. However, if one practices paganism, then they are entering a form of paganism... I'm not going to cover it up and lie with a smile. I encourage all to follow HaShem, and while I won't call an individual pagan (that's between G-d and the person) I will not cover up with lies and refuse to tell them they are entering paganistic practices.

I celebrate all the Jewish feasts ( and even keep some tradition which I know comes from oral torah, but I don't consider it binding), do you consider it binding?
Again, wearing a kippah doesn't make your religion jewish.

Do I consider oral torah binding? Yes and no.
HaShem stated his Ruach would be with the Beit Din for all time, and that their words would be His words to us as a community. However, there is more than one Beit Din. My problem comes with discerning which Beit Din is by extension G-d working here in earth.

I also continue to find it ironic that you hold to many many many traditions found in oral torah, yet condemn it at the same time. How hypocritical.

after another listing of "jewishy" types of outter expressions you adhere to, you say:
how can you say I don't look Jewish at all?
I never said you don't "look" Jewish. Sure, you have a lot of fancy "Jewishy" flavors, but you certainly don't follow a form of Judaism. Don't fool yourself, and please stop trying to condemn those of us who do follow a form of Judaism.

I have a plethora of unbelieving Jewish friends ( and I don't always befriend to evangelize) 80 percent of unbelieving Jews in Israel agree with my opinion about oral torah


Ok, so you align yourself with and find your theology within G-dless people. Now I know where you are coming from.

how does what i say not look jewish?
Again, its not "look". You sure do have the look down. Its the inside that matters, not the outter looks.

Let's just look at a few statements made by this article:
Therefore, the redemptive plan of God would have to comprise two parts, one for the heart and one for the actions.

The law (the Torah), or the commandments of Scripture, deal with our actions.
Ignorance. The torah deals with the heart, not purely actions.

. However, as the people continued to sin, the more specific prohibitions of the Ten Commandments had to be added to make clear what it meant to love God or our neighbor
And this guy went to a yeshivah? right...
Noah knew what was clean and unclean. How did he know? Because the Torah pre-existed Moshe's time. Granted, it was not written down, but it certainly was taught.

The rabbis know that the Torah in and of itself is incomplete.
No rabbi has ever said this, and I haven't met a single rabbi that thinks this. Here he assumes to know the heart of the Jews, and only exemplifies his ignorance.

The purpose of the talmud (mishnah and gemarah) is to complete the Torah by adding further details and more laws to answer every situation.
more and more ignorance. The purpose of the talmud was to bring consistency to the community in how they observe Torah together. It does not 'add' to the Torah, at least in intent, and no Rabbi would tell you otherwise. The Talmud is also only seen as partially authoritative, as it is the 'basis' for halacha, not halacha itself. When a Beit Din sits down to write Halacha, they use the Talmud to help discern the halacha they write. A halacha is not equal to a mitzvah in the Torah. The greatest halacha is less than the least of the mitzvot in the torah.

The law was never meant to function by itself but rather to be part of a process that includes a change of heart.
Now the author contradicts himself.

*sigh*

There are two options to completing the Torah. The first option is the rabbinnic method of adding an almost infinite number of halacha.
Again, the Rabbis do not see the Torah as incomplete. And the purpose of halacha is not to 'complete' the torah, but rather to help the Jews observe the torah as a community.

First God confronts us with moral law and then He seeks a change in our heart. The law is given first externally and then internally. These two stages come in two covenants.
No, the same mitzvot of the Torah affect the internal and external. The new covenant has not been fully enacted yet. The New Covenant is that of "no more sin". Its not that G-d will overlook sin, but that sin will cease all together. The "renewed covenant" began with Y'shua, and is in the process of continuing until the end of days. The first covenant was to be in the heart, and it is this very covenant that is renewed inside the heart... the one you refer to as "new".

We, as Messianic Jews (and in fact all believers in Yeshua), do not reject any of the law. In fact, we are all to keep the law. However, our approach to the law and our understanding of how to keep the law is different from the halachic approach.
Obviously the author was ignorant of the Messianic Beit Din in Acts. They made halacha.

I think I will follow them instead.
-Yafet

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Erin,

There are two sides to Messianic Judaism:
Those that practice the Law in an Orthodox manner, and those that don't. (LOL!)
It is not for me to decide who is to be which way.
I simply do in my life as I feel HaShem is calling me to do.

and that's fine. I am only arguing with those who want to condemn those of us who hold to halacha as applicable in our lives.

[simchat_torah]

A Great website www.tikkunministries.org (http://www.tikkunministries.org)

And for an even better websites, go to www.m7000.com (http://www.m7000.com) and www.ffoz.org (http://www.ffoz.org) and www.chabad.org (http://www.chabad.org)

[simchat_torah]

Moral Law and the Holy Spirit my friend is what counts

There is no division in the torah between "moral", "ritual", and "community" laws. This concept was birthed by christians who wanted to condemn the Torah, but continue keeping certain laws which they found favorable (such as "do not committ adultrey", etc). These christians want to cling to the laws which they like and throw away the rest as worthless. Thus they created these 'divisions' of law.

[iitb]

This thread is temporarily closed pending staff evaluation. I'm pretty sure we'll have to ban everyone who's participated. ;)


Seriously, It'll probably be re-opened shortly.