Does God predestine..

[frost]

Do you think God predestines every aspect of our lives or just our salvation? Obviously, he pre-ordains certain events in our lives. But, does he direct EVERY aspect of our lives, even the small things like which route you'll take to work one day or what clothes we'll wear on a certain day?

[Foundthelight]

I believe that he predestines our salvation. We are not robots blindly following a program. I believe that we have freedom to choose in our everyday actions. God knows what we will do before we do it. There are some things that God does choose for people to his greater glory, such as when He hardened Pharoe's heart.

[clinzey]

I believe that he predestines our salvation. We are not robots blindly following a program. I believe that we have freedom to choose in our everyday actions. God knows what we will do before we do it. There are some things that God does choose for people to his greater glory, such as when He hardened Pharoe's heart.

You're talking about predestination and foreknowledge at the same time - be careful. I don't believe God predetermines our salvation, but rather knows how we will choose. Just because he knows it doesn't mean it is predetermined for us.

[Dominus Fidelis]

You're talking about predestination and foreknowledge at the same time - be careful. I don't believe God predetermines our salvation, but rather knows how we will choose. Just because he knows it doesn't mean it is predetermined for us.

Predestination vs Predetermination

:cool:

[clinzey]

Predestination vs Predetermination

Your difference? I see them synonymously.

[Foundthelight]

You're talking about predestination and foreknowledge at the same time - be careful. I don't believe God predetermines our salvation, but rather knows how we will choose. Just because he knows it doesn't mean it is predetermined for us.
RO 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

RO 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

The Bible plainly says that God foreknows and predestines.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Your difference? I see them synonymously.

Predestination meaning that God knows in advance your destiny that you will choose.

Predetermination meaning that God alone decides your destiny.

[II Paradox II]

Predestination meaning that God knows in advance your destiny that you will choose.

Predetermination meaning that God alone decides your destiny.
Before you go to much further... where exactly did you you get those definitions? A significant portion of the theologians in the western churches (both catholic and protestant) have not defined predestination in the molinist fashion you have here. A more helpful way of defining it is the classical distinction between election ante praevisa merita (God predestines you without any reference to your later choices) and post praevisa merita (God elects you based on your choices that He foresees).

ken

[frost]

I believe that he predestines our salvation. We are not robots blindly following a program I believe that we have freedom to choose in our everyday actions.
Although I don't care for the robot analogy, is it not possible to have freedom to choose our everyday actions and AT THE SAME TIME follow God's plan for us?

[Lotar]

4] First, the distinction between the eternal foreknowledge of God and the eternal election of His children to eternal salvation, is carefully to be observed. For praescientia vel praevisio (foreknowledge or prevision), that is, that God sees and knows everything before it happens, which is called God's foreknowledge [prescience], extends over all creatures, good and bad; namely, that He foresees and foreknows everything that is or will be, that is occurring or will occur, whether it be good or bad, since before God all things, whether they be past or future, are manifest and present. Thus it is written, Matt. 10, 29: Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. And Ps. 139, 16: Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being imperfect; and in Thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there were none of them. Also Is. 37, 28: I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against Me.

5] The eternal election of God, however, vel praedestinatio (or predestination), that is, God's ordination to salvation, does not extend at once over the godly and the wicked, but only over the children of God, who were elected and ordained to eternal life before the foundation of the world was laid, as Paul says, Eph. 1, 4. 5: He hath chosen us in Him, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.

6] The foreknowledge of God (praescientia) foresees and foreknows also that which is evil; however, not in such a manner as though it were God's gracious will that it should happen; but all that the perverse, wicked will of the devil and of men wills and desires to undertake and do, God sees and knows before; and His praescientia, that is, foreknowledge, observes its order also in wicked acts or works, inasmuch as a limit and measure is fixed by God to the evil which God does not will, how far it should go, and how long it should last, when and how He will hinder and punish it; for all of this God the Lord so overrules that it must redound to the glory of the divine name and to the salvation of His elect, and the godless, on that account, must be put to confusion.

7] However, the beginning and cause of evil is not God's foreknowledge (for God does not create and effect [or work] evil, neither does He help or promote it); but the wicked, perverse will of the devil and of men [is the cause of evil], as it is written Hos. 13, 9: O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in Me is thy help. Also: Thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness. Ps. 5, 4. 8] The eternal election of God, however, not only foresees and foreknows the salvation of the elect, but is also, from the gracious will and pleasure of God in Christ Jesus, a cause which procures, works, helps, and promotes our salvation and what pertains thereto; and upon this [divine predestination] our salvation is so founded that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it, Matt. 16, 18, as is written John 10, 28: Neither shall any man pluck My sheep out of My hand. And again, Acts 13, 48: And as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.

http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-sd/election.html

[Reformationist]

Do you think God predestines every aspect of our lives or just our salvation?

Nothing is outside the providential government of God. Nothing happens by chance or happenstance. The important thing to recognize in this admission is that God is causal in everything that He does. That is not to say that God forces us to act a certain way or commit a certain act. It merely means that all things happen according to God's will. He accomplishes His will in various ways. Being that God is the source of ALL power we must also conclude that God's choice of NOT interceding in an event to stop it from happening, His passive involvement in bringing His will to pass, means that it happens according to His divine providence. God is not culpable for the sinfulness of man because He is neither obligated to restrain man's inherent sinfulness nor is He obligated to grace us with godliness. God is occasionally active and passive, depending on the means by which He chooses to accomplish His will. In BOTH cases God is active, i.e., when God chooses to be passive He must still actively decide not to intervene. Providence is a word that is highly overused and badly misunderstood. It causes us to either blame God for causing something to come to pass or question His love or ability to stop something from coming to pass. The reason we do this is because we are finite creations with a very limited ability and inclination to look beyond our immediate circumstances. We see the direct results of something and make divine assumption based on the knowledge we are able to glean, which, in every case, is quite limited. We can see this from any difficult situation that someone experiences. If that person is chosen by God to be brought to faith it is clear to most Christians that the means in which He does this often seems a mixed blessing. Many of us come to faith through hardship. Do we, then, see the hardship as bad or good. Obviously a bit of both. We are, because we are fleshly, loathe to endure the difficulty but we are overyjoyed in our new relationship with God. This is basically the attitude of most Christians. We miss the proverbial forest for the trees. We fail to see the glory of God in our trials because we think only of the trial, rather than what comes out of it. We think only of ourselves rather than thinking of the love of Christ, which now compels us. James tells us that those trials are the means that God has ordained to make us perfect and complete, lacking nothing. Why, then, do we expect to escape this world unscathed when the Word of God tells us that we WILL be persecuted for His names sake? Why are we so self-centered when we encounter these trials? We are that way because we are still trapped in this body of death. In fact, our very effort to put off the old man and put on the new man is a lifelong trial in which we suffer much setback. Why do we try? We try because we know, as Joseph knew, that even though our circumstances may be bleak and difficult to endure God means them for good. It is through this testing that we are perfected.

If we reduce the divine government of the Godhead to that of simply predestining the goal of our faith how will we EVER be conformed to the image of Christ? We'll live our entire lives thinking the good things are the result of our hard work rather than the unmerited blessings of the Lord and the bad things are out of God's sovereign control, and thus, worthless. How shall we learn patience if we aren't exposed to difficult people and events? How shall we learn to trust God in all things if all we ever experience is love and kindness and security? For that matter, did any of the saints of the Bible ever have lives that were characterized by great comfort and security?

Obviously, he pre-ordains certain events in our lives. But, does he direct EVERY aspect of our lives, even the small things like which route you'll take to work one day or what clothes we'll wear on a certain day?

God's divine providence of our lives doesn't negate our ability to make choices. In fact, the sovereignty of God is such that every choice we make or don't make works to the good of those who are called according to God's purpose. The route you take and the clothes you wear, while not the product of divine intervention, necessarily, are no more out of God's sovereign providence than the family to which you are born. You see, these events become quite secondary unless we have a close call on the freeway and can, with surety, proclaim God's divine protection or when the way we dressed for work was offensive to another person because it caused them to stumble. Just because we may freely make these choices, i.e., they were not coerced by God, does not mean that God does not use them to further His immutable plan. When we successfully get on the freeway and drive to work do we praise God for His protection, or do we just thank Him when we are involved in a close call? If we did get into a wreck and survive do we thank God for His preservation of our lives or do we begrudge Him for allowing us to damage our car and incur financial hardship? The point is, Christians have a tendency to think God is involved in the good and important things and think He stays out of the things that we find less important. Do we thank God for the abundance of clothing most of us have when we're picking it out? Does it cause us to think we may have more than we need and go donate it to those who have only one set of clothes, and that nothing but rags?

Unless we see EVERY experience of our lives as under the divine, providential government of God we will not see their value and not learn the valuable lessons from them.

God bless

[Foundthelight]

Although I don't care for the robot analogy, is it not possible to have freedom to choose our everyday actions and AT THE SAME TIME follow God's plan for us?
Of course. I was trying to head of those who misunderstand predestination and see it as God controlling our every action. In most cases he only foreknows what we will do. He does not normally force our individual actions as we go through life. To say otherwise would be to say that God would force us to commit the sins we unfortunately do commit.

We also know that, in some cases, for His greater glory, He does force certain actions on people.

[Reformationist]

You're talking about predestination and foreknowledge at the same time - be careful. I don't believe God predetermines our salvation, but rather knows how we will choose. Just because he knows it doesn't mean it is predetermined for us.

Do you believe that God created man and then stopped caring what the outcome of the individuals was? Is God nothing more to you than a fortune teller? I would love to hear you explain how God can PROMISE that EVERY thing will work to the good of those who are called according to the purpose of God if all He does is "know how we will choose."

Please, explain.

God doesn't just "know" what we will choose. God is not some impotent bystander with no ability to bring His own perfect plan to perfect completion.

How do you trust God in anything if you don't believe He sovereignly presides over His own creation in everything? Anything, according to what you're saying, could be the proverbial "fly in the ointment" that causes God's whole plan to come crashing down.

God bless

[Reformationist]

Predestination meaning that God knows in advance your destiny that you will choose.

So the destiny that God knows in advance is the result of your choosing? Explain to me again how God is glorified if your "destiny" is the result of your choice. Thanks.

Predetermination meaning that God alone decides your destiny.

It is so offensive to the nature of man to solely credit God for his eternal life. We operate under the assumption that we absolutely have to be involved in our salvation or it isn't worthwhile. It truly sad that we cannot see our salvation as the monergistic work of the Godhead and instead must take at least some of the credit for making the right choice.

On that note, would you mind telling me again the reason you made the right choice?

Thanks,
God bless

[frost]

God's divine providence of our lives doesn't negate our ability to make choices. In fact, the sovereignty of God is such that every choice we make or don't make works to the good of those who are called according to God's purpose....
Very well put, Reformationist. That is exactly how I see and and why I voted for option 1. Although it seems we are making our "own choices," (and indeed, in a sense we are,) we are at the same time participating in God's plan. I decide to go a different route to work and get in a wreck. It was MY decision to go that way but it was GOD who ordained it. Thus, both my will and God's will are working simultaneously. Not sure why this gives anti-Calvinists so much grief, for me to know that God is ultimately in control is a very comforting thought.

[clinzey]

Do you believe that God created man and then stopped caring what the outcome of the individuals was? Is God nothing more to you than a fortune teller? I would love to hear you explain how God can PROMISE that EVERY thing will work to the good of those who are called according to the purpose of God if all He does is "know how we will choose."

God is not a mere fortune teller. He does work in and through human history, but supernatural acts are not commonplace. If they were they would not be supernatural but part of natural occurrance. Why can't God set a system in motion and see how it goes? Do you think every day God says to himself, "Self, what do I want the weather in Florida to look like today?" I don't believe so.

[Reformationist]

God is not a mere fortune teller.

Glad to hear that.

He does work in and through human history, but supernatural acts are not commonplace. If they were they would not be supernatural but part of natural occurrance.

Two things. First, "supernatural" isn't a reference to frequency. It's a reference to the source, or causal agent, of the action. An act is no less supernatural if it occurs every 30 minutes if the causal agent is the Lord, wouldn't you agree? Secondly, if God does not sovereignly govern the steps of His creation then how can He guarantee that those steps will be to the benefit of those who are called according to His purpose? Believe me, every step you take is a "supernatural occurance" because of the one that makes each of those steps possible by constantly maintaining your existance. Clinzey, despite what you seem to think, we are not an autonomous creation. Take a look at this verse and tell me how you can reconcile it with your idea that "...supernatural acts are not commonplace":

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.

Surely the steps of a man are pretty commonplace, wouldn't you say. Yet, here we have the Gospel telling us that the Lord directs our very steps. How does that coincide with your understanding of God's participitory, or lackthereof, role in our lives?

Why can't God set a system in motion and see how it goes?

LOL! First off, God would know BEFORE THAT SYSTEM WAS EVER SET IN MOTION how it would go. God is not just a really good guesser. He doesn't just know all the contingencies. He knows exactly which contingency we will avail ourselves of. A good way to look at this is "God knows every contingency but nothing contingently." The reason God knows exactly how things will go is because they come to pass by His sovereign decree and immutable will. God does not force man to sin but man's sin was, is, and always will be a key factor in God's sovereign plan to bring His will to pass. Also, if all God did was set it in motion and did not constantly maintain it the fallen creation would be utterly ruined. How it would go is that it would fail without God's divine intercedence.

Do you think every day God says to himself, "Self, what do I want the weather in Florida to look like today?" I don't believe so.

Of course not. However, that doesn't mean that the weather in Florida isn't the product of divine government and providence. Do you think the wind just haphazardly blows without any restraint? Do you think that things happen by chance?

God bless

[LynneClomina]

with all my heart, this is how i believe it to be:

God wants us to do something.

He gives us the desire to do it.

thus, we WANT to do it.

we always go with the strongest desire in our hearts.

so we CHOOSE to do it.

because He always gives us the desire to do what He wants us to do, we will NEVER do what he doesnt want us to do.

when we do good, He gives us the desire to be obedient and do good, and makes it stronger than all other desires we have.

when we do evil, He gives us OVER to the wicked desires of our hearts.

did God predestine/predetermine/ordain Saddam Hussein to be an obnoxious boob and do all the baaaaaaaad stuff he did? yup. does that make God evil? nope. the evil came from Saddam Hussein's very own sinful, fallen heart. God just allowed that evil to reign in his heart for His purposes.

my favorite quote of all time states this very simply:

Man falls as God's providence ordains, but he falls by his OWN fault.
~John Calvin

[clinzey]

Two things. First, "supernatural" isn't a reference to frequency. It's a reference to the source, or causal agent, of the action. An act is no less supernatural if it occurs every 30 minutes if the causal agent is the Lord, wouldn't you agree?

There is the natural order and supernatural breakthrough. God's acts are supernatural occurrances in the natural order of things. If God chose not to act for a week the natural order he set in motion would still carry on.

Take a look at this verse and tell me how you can reconcile it with your idea that "...supernatural acts are not commonplace":

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.

Surely the steps of a man are pretty commonplace, wouldn't you say. Yet, here we have the Gospel telling us that the Lord directs our very steps.

Not the Gospel - a proverb. Proverbs aren't facts, but truisms - like "Better to live on a corner of the roof...."

Also, if all God did was set it in motion and did not constantly maintain it the fallen creation would be utterly ruined.

You know this how?

Of course not. However, that doesn't mean that the weather in Florida isn't the product of divine government and providence. Do you think the wind just haphazardly blows without any restraint? Do you think that things happen by chance?

No, the wind doesn't blow without restraint. The natural order of things (weather included) keeps that kind of stuff in check. High pressure, low pressure, etc. is all part of the system.

[Reformationist]

If God chose not to act for a week the natural order he set in motion would still carry on.

LOL! Pray tell, how do you know this? Has God not acted for a week? My belief is that if God chose not to act for one second we would cease to exist. Of course, that's only due to my belief in the preservatory nature of God's sovereign will. I am very curious how you came to your conclusion though. Care to share?

Not the Gospel - a proverb. Proverbs aren't facts, but truisms - like "Better to live on a corner of the roof...."

Umm...it's not just a proverb. It's the Word of God. Granted, there are appropriate ways to interpret certain literary styles. Are you saying that Proverbs 16:9 is completely symbolic? If so, what exactly do you think it is saying?

Also, you say that "proverbs aren't facts, but truisms." So, I looked up truism:

Main Entry: tru·ism
Pronunciation: 'trü-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: an undoubted or self-evident truth; especially : one too obvious for mention

Do you mean to say that the idea that a man plans from his heart but the Lord directs his steps is "an undoubted and self-evident truth that is too obvious to mention" or were you just using a word you didn't really comprehend?

You know this how?

Well, I believe that the Bible is quite clear about the sinful nature that man has inherited due to the Fall. We see a slight picture of that depravity in the lives of certain people, i.e., Pharoah, Nero, Hitler, etc. While am acutely aware that God has even given some measure of grace to these terrible men, they are representative of humanity in its natural state. Imagine a world of Hitlers, a world of people who dip the bodies of other humans in tar and use them to light their garden, as Nero did. I'd say that would indicate utter ruin. If you don't acknowledge the necessity for the restraining grace of God in keeping us from being as bad as we could and the regenerative nature of the Holy Spirit indwelling us then you take God's grace and mercy for granted and esteem yourself way too highly.

No, the wind doesn't blow without restraint. The natural order of things (weather included) keeps that kind of stuff in check. High pressure, low pressure, etc. is all part of the system.

Sure. Tell me again who set that system up? Oh that's right, GOD. Do you think He set that system up and then divorced Himself from all involvement? In fact, He has given some measure of control of this world to satan, "prince of the power of the air." I could tell you why I believe He did this but that would probably be too much for you.

[clinzey]

LOL! Pray tell, how do you know this? Has God not acted for a week? My belief is that if God chose not to act for one second we would cease to exist.

So to what extent does God control your actions? Or the actions of the world? Where do you draw the line between God acting and man or nature acting?

Also, you say that "proverbs aren't facts, but truisms." So, I looked up truism:

Main Entry: tru·ism
Pronunciation: 'trü-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: an undoubted or self-evident truth; especially : one too obvious for mention

Do you mean to say that the idea that a man plans from his heart but the Lord directs his steps is "an undoubted and self-evident truth that is too obvious to mention" or were you just using a word you didn't really comprehend?

I'm not sure if this is a sly insult or not, but I comprehend the word just fine. Truism as a self-evident truth, in this case it is mentioned. It's like saying, yeah we can make plans, but God is in control. It's not a statement of fact that God makes decisions for us.

Sure. Tell me again who set that system up? Oh that's right, GOD. Do you think He set that system up and then divorced Himself from all involvement? In fact, He has given some measure of control of this world to satan, "prince of the power of the air." I could tell you why I believe He did this but that would probably be too much for you.

Your remarks are rude and that is uncalled for. I have not been rude, simply expressing a different opinion. I never denied that God set that system up, so your sarcasm is out of line. I didn't say he divorced himself from all involvement - only that his intervening acts throughout human history are special events. Too much for me is not for you to gauge - you're offensive attitude is not appreciated.

[Reformationist]

So to what extent does God control your actions? Or the actions of the world? Where do you draw the line between God acting and man or nature acting?

That's actually a very good question. Let me see if I can do it justice without either taking credit for the influence of God's grace or implicating God in my sinfulness.

The issue of man's free will is a difficult one because both the Arminian camp (that would be you) and the reformed/Calvinist camp (that would be me) acknowledge that man makes choices. The difficulty arises because we give credit to different sources for the direction those choices take. I will tell you that if left to my own "free will" without the restraining hand of the Lord Almighty I would, as would we all, gladly embrace the sin my flesh so strongly desires in every area of my life. So, God's grace regularly restrains my sinful inclinations, and to this I give complete credit to God. I would be remiss if I esteemed my own righteousness and autonomy (which is non-existent) so highly as to believe that God is incapable of bringing to pass the sanctification of my brethren, His children, by working my inherent depravity to the furtherance of His immutable plan. Only when we recognize the sovereign ability of God to work beyond the limits of our own finite understanding will we ever truly appreciate the power of God and worship Him for Who and What He is, God. While I, and those around me, may be affected adversely by my sinfulness we cannot deny the opportunities we are given to be sanctified in the face of such sinfulness. This is not a justification to be sinful. On the contrary, it is reason not to be. My point is simply that God's sovereign government of His creation is not bound by our will. When we are exposed to the sins of another, or, for that matter our own sinfulness, we should praise God for the illumination we are being given to our sinfulness, and thus fight against it, and the opportunity to be godly in the face of that sinfulness. I cannot count the number of times that I have encountered the sins of another only to realize that, after my initial, sinful action of self righteousness, God was merely showing me my own pronounced proclivity to sin as well as giving me the opportunity to minister to a person in need. Am I always successful? Hardly. However, the more I am exposed to the sins of others the more apt I am to recognize the real work of God in bestowing His grace upon us, unworthy sinners though we may be.

So, with that said, let me say that NOTHING is outside of the providential government of our Father. He bestows and withholds His grace as He has ordained. His bestowal of grace is the credit for any godliness on my part and any sinfulness on my part, which definitely could be stopped by the grace of God, is my own responsibility. This may seem odd to you. You may even ask, "Why would God withhold His grace?" To this I can only offer the answer that, first, God is never obligated to bestow His grace and, second, His will is often brought to pass through the inherent sinfulness of mankind. How shall we ever learn patience and godly love if we never have to exhibit it? How shall we ever put off the old, selfish, self-centered, sinful man if we never have to consider the needs of someone else above our own needs? This, I hope you will agree, often requires us to encounter sin. If God bestowed His grace in such a sovereign way that none of us ever sinned then we would never truly learn obedience as Christ learned it, through our suffering. To learn obedience through suffering we must suffer.

So, God graces us AND providentially leaves us to our sinfulness as He sees fit to bring His plan to pass. In the midst of this we, as children of the Most High, should constantly be on our guard against grieving our Father and seeking His forgiveness when we do.

I'm not sure if you have children but I do. In fact, I have three of them. They are my life, them and my wife. God has given me the gift of a family through which I am constantly shown my sinfulness and depravity. LOL! Don't misunderstand me. It's not a bad thing. A family is the most focused, visible institution of God's love for us. I learn valuable traits like patience (still working on that one), love, kindness, forgiveness, repentence, surety, and a slew of others I'll not belabor you with. Only when you have children of your own can you truly and fully appreciate the undying love of the Lord God. Only when you have children can you see the value of occasionally overriding their "free will" so that you can protect them. Only when you have children can a person even begin to understand the magnitude of mercy the Lord has shown us.

You asked to what extent does God control my actions. To tell you simply, as much as He must to conform me as He wants. Am I resentful of this? Absolutely not. As my signature says, "My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will."

I'm not sure if this is a sly insult or not, but I comprehend the word just fine.

It wasn't an insult at all, sly or otherwise. It was merely an attempt to figure out if "truism" was the word you meant to use. I asked because you seemed to deny the literal understanding of the verse, i.e., "proverbs aren't facts, but truisms," while in the same breath acknowledging God's divine control as a "self evident truth."

Truism as a self-evident truth, in this case it is mentioned. It's like saying, yeah we can make plans, but God is in control.

Okay. Now all you've done is repeat the Proverb and echo my statement. You seemed to disagree with my application of Proverbs 16:9 yet here you acknowledge that God is in control. What does that mean to you if not that the plans of men's hearts, while not coerced by God, do not stop God's will for that person from coming to pass?

It's not a statement of fact that God makes decisions for us.

I never said He did. However, just because we make decisions doesn't mean those decisions aren't influenced, or held in bondage, by our sinful nature.

Your remarks are rude and that is uncalled for.

Huh?? What did I say that was rude and uncalled for? Here's a tip: If you're going to post on an internet MB, try not to be so thin skinned. I didn't make any disparaging remarks about you. What's your beef with what I said?

I have not been rude, simply expressing a different opinion. I never denied that God set that system up, so your sarcasm is out of line.

I apologize for the sarcasm but my point is valid. You act as if God is simply some bystander. My statement was meant to offer a "different opinion." Do I not have the same right to do so that you exercise?

I didn't say he divorced himself from all involvement - only that his intervening acts throughout human history are special events.

This type of thought, IMO, is a big part of what's wrong with Christianity today. We think of God's involvement in terms of big, momentous, cataclysmic events like the parting of the Red Sea or Creation or the burning bush. Who do you think causes the orderly events of everyday life that happen without fail? Who do you think is responsible for a sunrise? Rain? Our ecological system? The fact that we are not sucked into the gravitational pull of the sun? The fact that the earth continues to rotate? The birth of a child? The salvation of a soul? These ARE special events. They are momentous events. You only catagorize them as less because you take them for granted.

Too much for me is not for you to gauge - you're offensive attitude is not appreciated.

Come on man. "Too much" wasn't a reference to your intellectual capacity. It was due to the fact we are currently quite different in our theological views so to get deeper into the reasons God does something would be anti-progressive. Stop wearing your feelings on your shoulder. I'm not trying to insult you.

[frost]

No, the wind doesn't blow without restraint. The natural order of things (weather included) keeps that kind of stuff in check. High pressure, low pressure, etc. is all part of the system.If I may jump in here, I find it interesting that if the wind is blowing normally, it's not God's work but just the "natural order of things." Yet, if the wind blows so hard it causes tornadoes and people die, it's all the sudden, "the hand of God," at work punishing people or sparing people. To recognize God's handiwork in everyday things is to know better the love he has for his creation. I think Jesus himself shared this view when he said, "Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them......See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these."

[Reformationist]

If I may jump in here, I find it interesting that if the wind is blowing normally, it's not God's work but just the "natural order of things." Yet, if the wind blows so hard it causes tornadoes and people die, it's all the sudden, "the hand of God," at work punishing people or sparing people. To recognize God's handiwork in everyday things is to know better the love he has for his creation. I think Jesus himself shared this view when he said, "Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them......See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these."

Exactly frost, exactly. The splendor and magnificence of the Lord God is so prevalent that it is more common for us to take it for granted than glorify the Lord for it.

God bless

[Disciple 3]

Just for the record, this is not to debate. I don't want anyone to respond to me. Just please ponder what is said. To the Mods, if I am breaking rules, forgive me :)

I don't know if this will make sense to you, but, here goes.

I, personally, do not believe God predestines. Yes, he does know all things, he does span all time and he does not age or die.

The way I see God is as this. God has no ages or times. He is Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient. So if he is all these things they all must apply to all situations, including time. Time is not real, it is a theory. We, as humans are mortal, we need time, for appointments and for keeping track of day and night. God however, is not subject to time. I believe time is more of a distance to God. God spans all time and space, so he can accurately predict what will happen in the future ages, he is everywhere, Omnipresent. Please bear with me, this is complicated. So if God is everywhere and is not subject to time, he must encompass it. Since he does not age he must encompass all ages, he is immortal and omnipresent. He never dies, knows all outcomes, is everywhere and is a natural prophet.

God does give us free will and does allow us to make our own decisions, but he knows all outcomes. As we know, there are no contradictions in the Bible, so, if we have free will and God knows ALL, he must encompass all things, including time. This is the only way to reconcile the fact the he is all knowing and that we have free will, he encompasses time and space.

[clinzey]

So, God's grace regularly restrains my sinful inclinations, and to this I give complete credit to God.

How does God restrain you? When you see the sins of others? Is that what you're saying here...When we are exposed to the sins of another, or, for that matter our own sinfulness, we should praise God for the illumination we are being given to our sinfulness, and thus fight against it, and the opportunity to be godly in the face of that sinfulness.

This sounds like you taking action, not God taking action. God doesn't make your decisions for you.

Only when you have children of your own can you truly and fully appreciate the undying love of the Lord God.

Right, so we who are childless are just second-classers who don't really know what we have.

Okay. Now all you've done is repeat the Proverb and echo my statement. You seemed to disagree with my application of Proverbs 16:9 yet here you acknowledge that God is in control. What does that mean to you if not that the plans of men's hearts, while not coerced by God, do not stop God's will for that person from coming to pass?

Trust that a higher power is in control doesn't disallow for the notion that he lets us do as we will and from time to time intervenes.

Huh?? What did I say that was rude and uncalled for? Here's a tip: If you're going to post on an internet MB, try not to be so thin skinned. I didn't make any disparaging remarks about you. What's your beef with what I said?

Here's a tip - I'm not thin skinned, but in one post you questioned my comprehension and told me that you "could tell me" but that it would "be too much for me."

Who do you think causes the orderly events of everyday life that happen without fail? Who do you think is responsible for a sunrise? Rain? Our ecological system? The fact that we are not sucked into the gravitational pull of the sun? The fact that the earth continues to rotate? The birth of a child? The salvation of a soul?

The sun doesn't rise, planets revolve. Rain, eco-systems, etc. are all part of the system God made. He set it in motion and now it's at work.

[clinzey]

If I may jump in here, I find it interesting that if the wind is blowing normally, it's not God's work but just the "natural order of things." Yet, if the wind blows so hard it causes tornadoes and people die, it's all the sudden, "the hand of God," at work punishing people or sparing people.

I don't see either as "God's work" but both are part of the natural order of the world he created.

[Reformationist]

Just please ponder what is said.

Pondered and summarily rejected. Thanks for your input though.

God bless

[Reformationist]

How does God restrain you? When you see the sins of others? Is that what you're saying here...

God's grace regenerates our minds and makes us aware of our own sinfulness and, likewise, creates in us compassion for our brethren. The natural response of our flesh, to whom we are slaves in our fallen state, is to be self serving. As we are sanctified the Lord continues to reveal our sinfulness to us. I don't think it's an actual biblical account but our sin has been likened to a mountain and in our fallen state we walk with out backs to that mountain, completely oblivious to its magnitude. When the Lord regenerates us and puts us on the path to righteousness we are actually walking toward that mountain of sin. So, as we mature in our faith we see the magnitude of our sinfulness more and more. We start to see it as God sees it, at least to some extent. God's grace is the causal agent in our godly response. In fact, this imputation of this alien righteousness of Christ, for which we've been credited, and this alien righteousness of the Holy Spirit, which indwells us is the causal agent for all righteous works on our part.

This sounds like you taking action, not God taking action.

I never said we didn't take action. What's you're point?

God doesn't make your decisions for you.

I never said God made our decisions for us. Again, what's your point?

Right, so we who are childless are just second-classers who don't really know what we have.

That's great clinzey. I was sharing with you the insight that is gained by the graciousness of God through the granting of a family and you make it about you. Good job.

Trust that a higher power is in control doesn't disallow for the notion that he lets us do as we will and from time to time intervenes.

Wow. That sure is theologically sound. By the way, that was sarcasm, in case you didn't recognize it. It wasn't malicious so don't get all spun up. Do you even read what you write? "He lets us do as we will and from time to time intervenes?" Why, pray tell, would God "let us do as we will" and then "from time to time intervene?" Also, when you say "do as we will" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean we are autonomous or that we can act with impunity against the goodness of God? I am well aware that it may seem as if God often "let's us do as we will" but that doesn't mean that what we will is outside of His providential government.

Here's a tip - I'm not thin skinned, but in one post you questioned my comprehension and told me that you "could tell me" but that it would "be too much for me."

I explained my reasons for both of those assertations, which you seemed to have failed to notice. Look clinzey, I don't know you. You don't know me. It's clear to me that you don't know much about the Bible. Maybe you're a new Christian. Maybe you haven't studied it very much. Either way, we disagree. If you're going to continue to get put off by my requirement that you be clear in the points you're trying to make then it's best that we clip this off now. If you want to debate this then expect to get called on the way you explain your view if it doesn't make sense. At the very worst you'll just grow stronger in your faith of what you believe, as will I, so it would be very beneficial to the both of us. However, if every time we turn around you're getting offended because you think I've been rude then this is going to be nothing but a waste of time. So, before you reply think about how you want to do this, okay?

The sun doesn't rise, planets revolve.

Great. I'm sure it was highly beneficial to this conversation for you to point that out.

Rain, eco-systems, etc. are all part of the system God made. He set it in motion and now it's at work.

And, what, it just exists apart from His divine government? The Bible is rife with examples of God's involvement in the lives of His creation. Do you believe the environment in which we live exists outside of God's providential control?

[Reformationist]

clinzey, you're an associate Pastor of a church? If you don't mind my asking, what denomination are you? If you are non denominational then what faith would you say your views are most closely related to?

Thanks

[frost]

I don't see either as "God's work" but both are part of the natural order of the world he created.Hi clinzey. Let me give an example, if I may. I take it you agree that God at least intervenes in his creation from time to time, yes? If you say no, ignore the following :)

I'm driving down the road and come to a red light and stop. While waiting, I look out the window and see a helpless man lying in the street in obvious need of help. I get out of the car, collect the man and proceed to the hospital. The doctors tell me if I hadn't brought him in when I did, he'd have died. Now, I think most Christians would agree that that was divine intervention and not simply chance. What if I had not looked out the window? You see it was my decision to look out the window; God didn't "make" me do it. However, God arranged it so I would look out the window at that particular time so he could use me to help this man.

In the same way, all aspects of life exist because he made it so. The very thought that he just "sets things in motion," and sits back and watches is quite frightening. There is no luck, no chance. All that happens is orchestrated by God. When I first began to grasp this concept I truly began to appreciate the wonder and awesomeness of God.

As Romans says, "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."

[jesusson1]

I believe that God is in control and he knows whats going to happen and he acts accordingly.

[Reformationist]

I believe that God is in control and he knows whats going to happen and he acts accordingly.

I'm assuming, due to your faith icon, that you are a reformed Christian. However, I must tell you that this statement, on the surface, seems a bit contrary to the Calvinist position on God's sovereign ordination of history. It sounds like you are saying that because God "knows what's going to happen" He's able to respond to that and manipulate things to work out the way He wants them to. Now, I won't say that is necessarily contradictory to the Calvinistic view of God's providential control of His creation but that would depend on your perspective. It sounds as if you're putting God in a reactive position rather than a divinely proactive position. Is that what you mean or did I just misunderstand you?

Thanks,
God bless

[TSIBHOD]

I think that you can believe in predestination in practically any event, except sin. I do not see how you can believe that God forces man to sin, since God is not fond of sin. And if God does not force sin, He does not force anyone to be unsaved (death is the wages of sin). God wants everyone to stop sinning, and no one can be free of sin without Jesus Christ. So, God wants everyone to have Jesus Christ. What is up to us is whether we want to choose to serve sin or Jesus.

Read all of Romans 6 to see that this is true.

Rom 6:16 NET Do you not know that if you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

[frost]

I think that you can believe in predestination in practically any event, except sin. I do not see how you can believe that God forces man to sin, since God is not fond of sin. And if God does not force sin, He does not force anyone to be unsaved (death is the wages of sin).
Hello there TSIBHOD.

You are correct. God does not force anyone to sin. The reason he does not, is because, well, he doesn't need to. We are sinners. We sin without his need to force us to. Like the saying says, "we are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners." That is who we are - sinners due to the fall of man back in Genesis. So, rather than God "forcing" people to sin, he simply allows people to be who they are - sinners. What about the story of Pharaoh, or of Judas? Their sins were orchestrated by God in order to achieve his purpose. Again, he did not make them sin, he just allowed them to sin so that his plan would unfold.

As to the rest of your post about God wanting everyone to have Christ, that is a whole thread in itself :D Maybe someone else will address it, but it deals with what Reformed folks call Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.

God bless...

[Adoniram]

I'm having a little trouble with the concept of "it's God's will for us to sin." Quite frankly, I don't believe that to be the case. As Jesus said to the woman accused of adultry, "Go and sin no more." That being said, I do acknowledge that he allows us to be tempted, but always providing a way of escape. In all cases it would be his will for us to make the right choice, not to sin, but he nevertheless allows us that choice. Now, being sinners, we do sometimes make the wrong choice, and just because we do does not mean that it was God's will. However, God will or can certainly use that choice to teach us a lesson (as indicated in posts above), if he chooses (I'm not exactly certain that a "lesson" accompanies every act of sin). But, the notion that he wants us to sin just so he can teach us a lesson is, IMO, weird. In keeping with the parent with children analogy, what kind of parent would want their kid to be bad just so they could make a point?

Yet, I do believe there are exceptions to the "not God's will for us to sin" idea. Sometimes God will resort to extraordinary means to accomplish his purpose. And, contrary to what was stated in the preceding post, God does induce, not merely allow, some people to do unsaintly acts to achieve his goals. The Bible says God "hardened" Pharoah's heart. This was an extraordinary act done so he could show the Israelites that he was the source of their salvation. He extraordinarily orchestrated Judas' betrayal of Jesus to accomplish his purpose of providing the way of salvation for all of mankind. I would even venture to say that he used Hitler to make conditions ripe for his purpose of regathering the Jews back into the promised land as prophesied by Ezekiel and others. But these are extraordinary means for extraordinary circumstances.

Generally speaking, I would have to say that it is not God's will for us to sin. Instead he says "Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1 Pet. 1: 16

[Reformationist]

I'm having a little trouble with the concept of "it's God's will for us to sin."

Let me, if I may, qualify this. When speaking of the involvement of a sovereign, causal Agent like God we must consider the effects of His active willing, a.k.a. His decreed will, of events AS WELL AS the effect of His passive involvement, a.k.a. His perceptive will, in the events of history. So, in that vein, let me say that God brings His will to pass in many methods, among them our sinfulness. That is not an implication that God sovereignly decrees our sins but rather that it serves His purpose, in ways we often may not understand, to utilize our sinfulness to usher in His plan. Also, when I say "it serves His purpose" I do NOT mean that it happens apart from God's divine ordination. It's not as if God wasn't expecting our sin to happen and had to come up with a way to work it to His benefit. On the contrary, though we may not fully comprehend how, our sin is not beyond the providential government of God. That is a VERY important key to understanding the "will of God." We can all feel confident in acknowledging that God could, if He so willed, stop us from sinning, wouldn't you agree? If you do agree then, like the rest of us, you must address the question of why God chooses not to stop us from sinning. The only reasonable conclusion, in my opinion, is to acknowledge that God has deemed, before the foundations of creation, that our sin would play a part in His eternal plan. Though He could have stopped it He chose not to because it manifests His eternal plan.

But, the notion that he wants us to sin just so he can teach us a lesson is, IMO, weird.

I am not aware that anyone made this assertation. I, personally, do not believe that God wants us to sin. Again, I do not think that puts our sin outside of God's providence but it also does not place the responsibility of our sins upon God.

In keeping with the parent with children analogy, what kind of parent would want their kid to be bad just so they could make a point?

Two things. First, we must always be careful about carrying such an analogy too far. We are not sovereign, even in our own lives and relationships with our children. We are not omniscient. We are not eternal, infinite beings. We are limited in our ability to work anything to the good, much less all things. Second, parents don't necessarily want their children to be bad to teach them a lesson but most parents, dispite our finiteness, are intimately familiar with the value of a hands on lesson. For instance, I don't want my 2 year old son touching the hot oven door. That does not mean that I wouldn't let him do it, in a regulated way mind you, to teach him a lesson that my words and punishments never could. So, in certain instances even finite parents use the disobedience of their children to their betterment. We are often able to do that and we're finite. Imagine the ability of a sovereign, omniscient, omnipresent God in that regard.

And, contrary to what was stated in the preceding post, God does induce, not merely allow, some people to do unsaintly acts to achieve his goals. The Bible says God "hardened" Pharoah's heart. This was an extraordinary act done so he could show the Israelites that he was the source of their salvation.

I will tell you that I think your view here is way off. God's "hardening" of Pharaoh's heart does not mean that God worked fresh evil into an otherwise potentially repentant heart. Pharaoh was a fallen, rebellious, sinful creation who never desired to do God's will, at least not out of love. When the Bible speaks of God "hardening" someone's heart it merely means that He, to a greater extent, removes His restraining hand from them. Pharaoh, like all unregenerate people, was naturally disinclined to obey God and desired only to flee from Him in rebellion. God, to some measure, extends His grace to all people. When He lifts this restraining hand carnal man submits, to an even greater degree, to the desires of his flesh. So, God's action of "hardening" Pharaoh's heart is active in that He removes His restraining hand but passive in the sense that Pharaoh's response to that removal of restraining grace is the natural response of unregenerate man, i.e., rebellion.

He extraordinarily orchestrated Judas' betrayal of Jesus to accomplish his purpose of providing the way of salvation for all of mankind.

Obviously I disagree with you here. God did not just provide a "way" of salvation. He provided the means of salvation.

Generally speaking, I would have to say that it is not God's will for us to sin. Instead he says "Be ye holy; for I am holy." 1 Pet. 1: 16

Agreed, so long as we're talking about God's perceptive will. His "perceptive will" is basically His instruction to us as to how we should live. We may contradict His perceptive will, though not with impunity, but we can never thwart His decreed will which is "His eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His will, whereby, for His own glory, He hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass" (Westminster Shorter Catechism).

God bless

[Dominus Fidelis]

So the destiny that God knows in advance is the result of your choosing? Explain to me again how God is glorified if your "destiny" is the result of your choice.


Me choosing or not choosing God doesn't add to His glory. I can't add to His glory either way because He is infinitely glorious with or without me.



It is so offensive to the nature of man to solely credit God for his eternal life. We operate under the assumption that we absolutely have to be involved in our salvation or it isn't worthwhile. It truly sad that we cannot see our salvation as the monergistic work of the Godhead and instead must take at least some of the credit for making the right choice.

On that note, would you mind telling me again the reason you made the right choice?


God choose me first, I didn't choose Him. He gave me the grace to seek and accept Him. I could have ignored that grace if I didn't want it.

Those are my beliefs Ref, because you asked. I am not debating anything in this forum.

:)

[Bulldog]

He gave me the grace to seek and accept Him. I could have ignored that grace if I didn't want it.


Sounds like a choice to me.

[Flynmonkie]

with all my heart, this is how i believe it to be:

God wants us to do something.

He gives us the desire to do it.

thus, we WANT to do it.

we always go with the strongest desire in our hearts.

so we CHOOSE to do it.

because He always gives us the desire to do what He wants us to do, we will NEVER do what he doesnt want us to do. This is simply not true, are you saying you no longer sin?

when we do good, He gives us the desire to be obedient and do good, and makes it stronger than all other desires we have.

when we do evil, He gives us OVER to the wicked desires of our hearts.

did God predestine/predetermine/ordain Saddam Hussein to be an obnoxious boob and do all the baaaaaaaad stuff he did? yup. does that make God evil? nope. the evil came from Saddam Hussein's very own sinful, fallen heart. God just allowed that evil to reign in his heart for His purposes.

my favorite quote of all time states this very simply:

Man falls as God's providence ordains, but he falls by his OWN fault.
~John CalvinHi Lynne!:wave:
So why are so many Calvinist against the possibility that we have a choice in the matter?:scratch:

The statements I have seen here leads people to believe that because God is always in control (in which he is) but what distrubs me is He is also in control when we choose to sin. No room for our own disregard. God is not the author of sin in this regard. Satan is. We make a choice. His Grace of Salvation should emplify and encompass that gift to us as well as his Sovereigness as you said in your words "God just allowed that evil to reign in his heart for His purposes." Yes, I do agree God can work with anything, even our sin. But most Calvins I have discussed this with are very strong in the opinion that we are NOT allowed this choice. It makes no sense. So it is very interesting that you have put this, in this way.

I choose to look at situations such as Sadam as that He chose a sinful path. The sinful way of Satan, NOT God. God of course knows where we are headed but in by no means does He force our hands in either direction. Daily even as Christians we all sin, but God does not author that sin, Satan does. He allows us that Choice, even though God has given us the Holy Spirit to help direct us, our nature will always be sinful. So when we sin, he instilles the urges not to, but we will not always follow those urges (unfortunatly!). Thus still giving us free will in this matter. Not to be confused that we are in control of our Salvation, as that Any saved Christian knows where all of the Glory lies in all of that. We are however in control of choosing how we want to live our lives.

Another thing -
Because He always gives us the desire to do what He wants us to do, we will NEVER do what he doesnt want us to do.
This is simply not true, are you saying you no longer sin? It is all over the bible in precidence that it is OUR NATURE to be sinful. We will ALWAYS come short of the Glory of God. Even as Christians we are sinful -Are you saying that God wants for some of the Christians I know to be sinful when they are? Because I surely do not blame him for my bad Choices. Yes he does give us a desire, But when I loose my temper with my spouse or my kids, or do not follow his way is not his doing! It is my unworthy lowly sinful nature.

By saying this you are actually saying that God allows us to make sinful decisions, or allowed "evil" to reign in our heart. Just not something I hear from Calvins too often.:scratch:

[LynneClomina]

Hi Lynne!:wave:
hi flyn! i will try to answer best as i can. as i believe is the truth, but i am not God, right? ;)

So why are so many Calvinist against the possibility that we have a choice in the matter?:scratch: [quote] i'm not sure how to answer that. i have come to be a calvinist because of several things, but mainly from what i read in the bible, then further study based on the teachings of R.C. Sproul. i highly recommend his book "chosen by God" because unlike many calvinists, he is able to teach it in a very straighforward way that answers all of one's doubts. he is an EXCELLENT teacher of the bible.

[quote]The statements I have seen here leads people to believe that because God is always in control (in which he is) but what distrubs me is He is also in control when we choose to sin. No room for our own disregard. God is not the author of sin in this regard. Satan is. We make a choice.

yes, He is always in control. yes, His is in control when we sin, becuase he just DOES NOT put in us the desire to do the non-sinful thing. basically, He lets us act on our own flesh. we choose to sin. we cannot choose to not sin. do we have the choice between sinning and non sinning? no - not because God limits us in any way - but because we CANNOT NOT sin on our own. when i sin - well, that's my fault, my choice, my evil, not God's. thing is, my only option WAS to sin - becuase without God i am not capable of doing good, do you see what i mean? it's pretty simple; because of the fall, i can do no good thing. God does not make me sin, i fully choose to. God just directs which way i will fall according to His purposes. i still fully choose to sin. but i am a slave to either sin, or to righteousness, so my choice is HARDLY unbiase - in fact it's so biased as to say that gee, i really dont have the freedom to choose what's right - becuase i really only want to do evil. i recognize that any time i do good, it's not me, it's God's doing entirely. and i thank Him for haveing the grace upon me to enable me to do that good - that he put that desire in my heart to do that good thing so that i would choose to go after that desire. yes, we ALWAYS choose our actions; but our actions are ALWAYS based on our strongest desire. either the desire to sin or the desire to do good. the desire to sin is already there, and is where i will always go unless God puts the desire in me to do good. and when God puts that desire there, then i CHOOSE to do the good. i am always chooseing my actions, see? even though God is orchestrating the whole thing.
His Grace of Salvation should emplify and encompass that gift to us as well as his Sovereigness as you said in your words Yes, I do agree God can work with anything, even our sin. But most Calvins I have discussed this with are very strong in the opinion that we are NOT allowed this choice.
we are allowed the choice. but based on the strongest desire in our hearts, which we will always choose to follow. so God "adjusts" the desires in our hearts according to His purposes. so we freely choose what we choose, but God is totally directing it. and He did plan it that way from the beginning of time. It makes no sense. So it is very interesting that you have put this, in this way.

I choose to look at situations such as Sadam as that He chose a sinful path. yep, he did. based on the stronges desires of his heart which was to murder, control, dictate, and generally be one evil dude. :mad:

The sinful way of Satan, NOT God.

satan is an influence, to be sure, but never can force us to sin. that is a choice. and it again depends on the strongest desires of our heart. either we are left to ourselves to do what we really want to do - sin, or God steps in and gives us a new desire - to do what is right in that situation.

God of course knows where we are headed but in by no means does He force our hands in either direction. nope he doesnt force our hands, he doesnt need to. it's like when you have a rascally kid who wants to go out and play and not clean his room. do you go in there and move his hands and make him clean? no - you give him options, knowing full well that he will decide for what he wants the most. so, he has options - if you CHOOSE to NOT clean your room you will be grounded for a week and will have no deserf after dinner tonight. if you CHOOSE to YES clean your room, you can go outside and play with jimmy this afternoon. generally, based on those outcomes, he decides based on his strongest desire. if his strongest desire is for the dessert after dinner, he'll clean. if it's to go out and play NOW, then he chooses to do so. parents "manipulate" their children all the time by utilizing what they know are their kid's tendencies and desires. if suzy is really BIG on dessert, she will choose to clean. if she chooses to go and play now and not clean her room, she will face her childhood hell - being grounded. so it is the same with us. notice how the kid's almost always do what serves THEM - their desert, their play time, etc. so it is with us also. we will always choose what serves us best. UNLESS God by his grace puts the desire to put ourselves second to Him/others and do good. does this analogy make sense?

Daily even as Christians we all sin, but God does not author that sin, Satan does. He allows us that Choice, even though God has given us the Holy Spirit to help direct us, our nature will always be sinful. So when we sin, he instilles the urges not to, but we will not always follow those urges (unfortunatly!).

i disagree with this. i belive we will always follow the strongest urges. and God is capable of giving us urges that are STRONGER than the urge to sin. do we still choose what we most want to do? yep. so we are not in any state of having no say, we do have a say, we do decide. Thus still giving us free will in this matter. Not to be confused that we are in control of our Salvation, as that Any saved Christian knows where all of the Glory lies in all of that. We are however in control of choosing how we want to live our lives.

Another thing -

This is simply not true, are you saying you no longer sin? of course i sin. i sin far too much. because God does NOT ALWAYS step in and give us the strongest desire of doing good.

It is all over the bible in precidence that it is OUR NATURE to be sinful. We will ALWAYS come short of the Glory of God. Even as Christians we are sinful -Are you saying that God wants for some of the Christians I know to be sinful when they are? Because I surely do not blame him for my bad Choices.

"man falls as God's providence ordains, but he (man) falls by his OWN FAULT." (John Calvin). yes God ordains us to fall and sin, but I am to blame. very true. Yes he does give us a desire, But when I loose my temper with my spouse or my kids, or do not follow his way is not his doing! It is my unworthy lowly sinful nature.right-o!

By saying this you are actually saying that God allows us to make sinful decisions, or allowed "evil" to reign in our heart. Just not something I hear from Calvins too often.:scratch:Yes, He does allow us to do those things. totally at His discretion. i think most calvinists realize these things, that we do choose, but it is not a "free" choice per se, becuase we always have been and always will be in bondage to our desires. and God is totally in control of where those desires lay. so we have free will, but it is not free, but it is. we freely choose, but they are not free choices, and yet they are. it is a conundrum to be sure, and most ppl dont know how to explain it. the thing to remember is that most calvinists realize that their choices are not "free" perse, and so focus on that, because it gives us the greatest of comfort to realize that God is in control of our sinful nature, do you know what i mean? and so calvinists emphasize "not free", which then of course makes no sense to non-calvinists, because they say, well, we have the "free will" to choose our own actions. which we do.... but then the calvinist says, no, i'ts not a "free" will, we are slaves to sin and satan; and then the non-calvinist says, balony, i chose every thing i did this week, i am not "forced" into anyting. and in general, the discussion deteriorates, becuase they dont know how to communicate with each other. they are speaking two languages, which offend each other. we need to learn each other's vocabulary, what we are actually saying, so that we will be able to discuss rationally without getting upset and each others "denseness". ^_^

be blessed! :hug:

[Flynmonkie]

yes, He is always in control. yes, His is in control when we sin, becuase he just DOES NOT put in us the desire to do the non-sinful thing. basically, He lets us act on our own flesh. we choose to sin. we cannot choose to not sin. do we have the choice between sinning and non sinning? no - not because God limits us in any way - but because we CANNOT NOT sin on our own. when i sin - well, that's my fault, my choice, my evil, not God's. thing is, my only option WAS to sin - becuase without God i am not capable of doing good, do you see what i mean? it's pretty simple; because of the fall, i can do no good thing. God does not make me sin, i fully choose to. God just directs which way i will fall according to His purposes. i still fully choose to sin. but i am a slave to either sin, or to righteousness, so my choice is HARDLY unbiase - in fact it's so biased as to say that gee, i really dont have the freedom to choose what's right - becuase i really only want to do evil. i recognize that any time i do good, it's not me, it's God's doing entirely. and i thank Him for haveing the grace upon me to enable me to do that good - that he put that desire in my heart to do that good thing so that i would choose to go after that desire. yes, we ALWAYS choose our actions; but our actions are ALWAYS based on our strongest desire. either the desire to sin or the desire to do good. the desire to sin is already there, and is where i will always go unless God puts the desire in me to do good. and when God puts that desire there, then i CHOOSE to do the good. i am always chooseing my actions, see? even though God is orchestrating the whole thing.Yes I do agree with this perspective. Actually, I firmly believed I was in the Calvin camp, until the predestintation - foreknowledge and election gets sketchy:scratch:


we are allowed the choice. but based on the strongest desire in our hearts, which we will always choose to follow. so God "adjusts" the desires in our hearts according to His purposes. so we freely choose what we choose, but God is totally directing it. and He did plan it that way from the beginning of time. yep, he did. based on the stronges desires of his heart which was to murder, control, dictate, and generally be one evil dude. :mad:
I can agree with this too. :clap:



satan is an influence, to be sure, but never can force us to sin. that is a choice. and it again depends on the strongest desires of our heart. either we are left to ourselves to do what we really want to do - sin, or God steps in and gives us a new desire - to do what is right in that situation. nope he doesnt force our hands, he doesnt need to. it's like when you have a rascally kid who wants to go out and play and not clean his room. do you go in there and move his hands and make him clean? no - you give him options, knowing full well that he will decide for what he wants the most. so, he has options - if you CHOOSE to NOT clean your room you will be grounded for a week and will have no deserf after dinner tonight. if you CHOOSE to YES clean your room, you can go outside and play with jimmy this afternoon. generally, based on those outcomes, he decides based on his strongest desire. if his strongest desire is for the dessert after dinner, he'll clean. if it's to go out and play NOW, then he chooses to do so. parents "manipulate" their children all the time by utilizing what they know are their kid's tendencies and desires. if suzy is really BIG on dessert, she will choose to clean. if she chooses to go and play now and not clean her room, she will face her childhood hell - being grounded. so it is the same with us. notice how the kid's almost always do what serves THEM - their desert, their play time, etc. so it is with us also. we will always choose what serves us best. UNLESS God by his grace puts the desire to put ourselves second to Him/others and do good. does this analogy make sense?

Yes it makes sense, but I think it leaves much to be desired on a full understanding of what we do know and have been made aware of regarding God. He has no need to manipulate us as our earthly parents or even as us being earthly parents. That is the Glory of God. And what is so very exciting to me about his love for (all of) us!


i disagree with this. i belive we will always follow the strongest urges. and God is capable of giving us urges that are STRONGER than the urge to sin. do we still choose what we most want to do? yep. so we are not in any state of having no say, we do have a say, we do decide. of course i sin. i sin far too much. because God does NOT ALWAYS step in and give us the strongest desire of doing good. Yes I also agree to this, However I do not believe that God ever lets us down (actually this goes against scripture) by not offering us the correct path, it is US whom lets God down.I feel the highlighted statement is implying this. I am not so sure that is what you mean here.:confused:


"man falls as God's providence ordains, but he (man) falls by his OWN FAULT." (John Calvin). yes God ordains us to fall and sin, but I am to blame. very true. right-o!Yes, He does allow us to do those things. totally at His discretion. i think most calvinists realize these things, that we do choose, but it is not a "free" choice per se, becuase we always have been and always will be in bondage to our desires. and God is totally in control of where those desires lay. so we have free will, but it is not free, but it is. we freely choose, but they are not free choices, and yet they are. it is a conundrum to be sure, and most ppl dont know how to explain it. the thing to remember is that most calvinists realize that their choices are not "free" perse, and so focus on that, because it gives us the greatest of comfort to realize that God is in control of our sinful nature, do you know what i mean? and so calvinists emphasize "not free", which then of course makes no sense to non-calvinists, because they say, well, we have the "free will" to choose our own actions. which we do.... but then the calvinist says, no, i'ts not a "free" will, we are slaves to sin and satan; and then the non-calvinist says, balony, i chose every thing i did this week, i am not "forced" into anyting. and in general, the discussion deteriorates, becuase they dont know how to communicate with each other. they are speaking two languages, which offend each other. we need to learn each other's vocabulary, what we are actually saying, so that we will be able to discuss rationally without getting upset and each others "denseness". ^_^

be blessed! :hug:
I think you have got it! This is what I suspected all along!

You are such a dear sweet soul! Thanks for your response!:hug:

[kel32]

yes, He is always in control. yes, His is in control when we sin, becuase he just DOES NOT put in us the desire to do the non-sinful thing. basically, He lets us act on our own flesh. we choose to sin. we cannot choose to not sin.

i belive we will always follow the strongest urges. and God is capable of giving us urges that are STRONGER than the urge to sin. do we still choose what we most want to do? yep. so we are not in any state of having no say, we do have a say, we do decide. of course i sin. i sin far too much. because God does NOT ALWAYS step in and give us the strongest desire of doing good. :hug:
Wow...is this a Calvinist doctrine or your own personal one?

Correct me if i've misinterpreted what you've said, but are you saying that He "does not put us in the desire to do the non-sinful thing"? What then, is the purpose of the Holy Spirit, indwelt in us? "We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin." Romans 6:6

And you said "God is 'capable' of giving us urges that are stronger than the urge to sin"? capable? As new creations, don't we have a 'constant urge' through the Spirit, contrary to that of sinning? Or are you saying that even though we have the Spirit indwelt, God will 'suppress' or 'promote' the amount of guidance that the Spirit leads us with, as He freely chooses to? :scratch:

You also said "i sin far too much. because God does NOT ALWAYS step in and give us the strongest desire of doing good" Personally, I believe that this desire is ALWAYS there (in a new creation). We just have to learn to be led by it, and surrender to it. And I don't believe that the act of surrendering to God's will is a 'work', even though it entails action on our behalf.

~peace~

[Reformationist]

I posted something to this effect a while back and, sadly, it did not get very many good reviews. I think part of it is that we, as Christians, misunderstand the nature of our natures. While it is no longer our "nature" to sin we still have a sin nature. It was crucified but it is not gone from us. God, for reasons unknown, has chosen to leave us in our sinful flesh and the "putting off" of this old man and "putting on" of righteousness is the process of sanctification.

I would not presume to speak for LynneClomina but I will tell you the reasoning behind this belief. Just for the record, I fully support the idea that we, in fact, MUST choose according to our strongest desire or inclination at the moment of decision. If you ask anyone what motivates them to choose one way or another when faced with a choice most of them will give you a blank stare. The truth is that we are NOT neutral beings. We are not equally as righteous as we are sinful. If that were the case then we would never make ANY decisions because we would be equally influenced by opposite factors. So, the catalyst for our decisions is our will. Our will is most certainly influenced by our desires. In fact, it is SO influenced by our desires that we MUST choose according to our greatest desire or inclination when we are faced with a choice. If you're honest about yourself there is not a decision you've ever made that cannot be seen in this light.

I will ask someone, "When you sinned what made you do it?" They often say things like, "I don't know. I want to please God." They may very well want to please God. Pleasing God, however, was NOT their greatest desire when they made the choice to sin. Their greatest desire was to feed their flesh so, simply, they did. That's why it is ever important to nourish our desire to please God by praying and reading His Word.

God bless

[kel32]

I posted something to this effect a while back and, sadly, it did not get very many good reviews. I think part of it is that we, as Christians, misunderstand the nature of our natures. While it is no longer our "nature" to sin we still have a sin nature. It was crucified but it is not gone from us. God, for reasons unknown, has chosen to leave us in our sinful flesh and the "putting off" of this old man and "putting on" of righteousness is the process of sanctification.

I would not presume to speak for LynneClomina but I will tell you the reasoning behind this belief. Just for the record, I fully support the idea that we, in fact, MUST choose according to our strongest desire or inclination at the moment of decision. If you ask anyone what motivates them to choose one way or another when faced with a choice most of them will give you a blank stare. The truth is that we are NOT neutral beings. We are not equally as righteous as we are sinful. If that were the case then we would never make ANY decisions because we would be equally influenced by opposite factors. So, the catalyst for our decisions is our will. Our will is most certainly influenced by our desires. In fact, it is SO influenced by our desires that we MUST choose according to our greatest desire or inclination when we are faced with a choice. If you're honest about yourself there is not a decision you've ever made that cannot be seen in this light.

I will ask someone, "When you sinned what made you do it?" They often say things like, "I don't know. I want to please God." They may very well want to please God. Pleasing God, however, was NOT their greatest desire when they made the choice to sin. Their greatest desire was to feed their flesh so, simply, they did. That's why it is ever important to nourish our desire to please God by praying and reading His Word.

God bless
Ref...

I agree, for the most part, with what you have said above. We will, indeed, always choose whichever desire is stronger at the time. But where we may disagree is how the desire that's present becomes the dominant desire at the time. Correct me if i'm wrong, for I don't wish to put words into your mouth, but it seems that you believe that God is solely responsible for the sanctification process, without any doing of our own. And throughout that process, our 'desires' (whether 'sin nature' or 'Spirit-led') are out of our own hands; God will adjust accordingly, as He sees fit, the strength or power of that desire - whether it be Spirit-led or sin-nature-led. I'll wait for your response before I continue, in case i've misinterpreted your point.

~peace~

[TSIBHOD]

So, rather than God "forcing" people to sin, he simply allows people to be who they are - sinners.
God wants everyone to stop sinning, and no one can be free of sin without Jesus Christ. So, God wants everyone to have Jesus Christ. What is up to us is whether we want to choose to serve sin or Jesus.
I am well aware of the fact that we are sinners first, and we sin because of that. I am also aware that God doesn't like sin. So why would it be His will to not extend His grace to certain individuals, effectively forcing them to continue in sin? We are agreed that if God does not help the fallen human, he will invariably continue in sin. It is my position that God would never want a person to continue in sin. He may use their sinfulness for His glory, but He would rather have them repent and not sin. Since God hates sin, I cannot see the logic in thinking that He would want someone to continue to sin....

And if you agree that God wants all people to stop sinning, you are agreeing that God wants all people to have salvation, since one could not stop sinning without salvation. Read carefully here: I am not saying that if they stopped sinning, that would make them saved. I am saying that there is no way that they could stop sinning, unless they were already saved.

Do you think that God wants the "unelect" (if that is a word) to continue in their sins? I think that He will allow them to, but that He wants them to stop and makes that possible.

On a different note:
I will ask someone, "When you sinned what made you do it?" They often say things like, "I don't know. I want to please God." They may very well want to please God. Pleasing God, however, was NOT their greatest desire when they made the choice to sin. Their greatest desire was to feed their flesh so, simply, they did. That's why it is ever important to nourish our desire to please God by praying and reading His Word.

Amen, brother! We may wonder how to please God when there is no clear direction of what His will is in a given situation (should I post on Christian Forums or read in my Bible instead?). But if it is our main -- no, our only -- goal to please God, then that is what we will end up doing.

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

We sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin. God allows us to sin in order that we might grow and learn our sin is not something that God can not resque us from he know it may hurt us and he fixes that also.

It is much like a parent who allows his/her 3yr to walk down the steps alone in order to learn unless you carry them for the rest of their lives. If they fall you can resque them and help them , but you allow them to go down the steps just the same the next time.

You can remind them warn them, but none the less they must learn.

My .02

Bill

[TSIBHOD]

That is true, but that is not what I was making my point about exactly. My point is that if God does not wish for any man to sin (and I believe that this is the case), He would not enable some to stop sinning by extending His grace to them while leaving others helpless and forced to sin due to their depraved natures. If God wants everyone to stop sinning, while He does not force them to stop, it should be the case that He at least does make them able to stop if they would, correct?

[Adoniram]

Reformationist-

I understand and concur with your reasoning. Maybe I misunderstood the tenor of the earlier posts.

So, in that vein, let me say that God brings His will to pass in many methods, among them our sinfulness. That is not an implication that God sovereignly decrees our sins but rather that it serves His purpose, in ways we often may not understand, to utilize our sinfulness to usher in His plan.

I agree.

The only reasonable conclusion, in my opinion, is to acknowledge that God has deemed, before the foundations of creation, that our sin would play a part in His eternal plan. Though He could have stopped it He chose not to because it manifests His eternal plan.

I would like to add to this the fact that God loves us infinitely. And his desire is for us to return that love (though we can't possibly in the same measure) and to do his will because of love for him. Therein, we have fellowship with him and he with us. I believe this is the essence of "his eternal plan." God walked and talked with Adam and Eve while they were still in their pure state and that is what he wants to do with all of us.

But he will not force us to love him. And it follows that he will not stop us from sinning. And if he uses our mistakes to achieve some greater good, well that is just one more testament to his sovereignty, wisdom, and grace. Think of it: With God, two wrongs can make a right.

When the Bible speaks of God "hardening" someone's heart it merely means that He, to a greater extent, removes His restraining hand from them.

While I do see the validity of this statement and how it pertains to Pharoah, my impression is, that as evil and rebellious as Pharoah was, he might have let Israel go earlier than he did in order to avoid more plagues. Of course, this is pure speculation. But in point of fact, after facing the onslaught of several of the plagues, Pharoah did offer a compromise to the outright release of the Hebrews. Of course it was unacceptable and more plagues came. Then another compromise offer, more plagues, another compromise offer. Nine times God hardened Pharoah's heart, three times Pharoah hardened his own heart, and five times it is simply stated that Pharoah's heart was hardened. So it follows that Pharoah might have been inclined to let them go had God not hardened, or as you put it, removed his restraining hand from his natural nature. Finally, after the "death of the firstborn," Pharoah could stand it no longer and commanded Moses to get his people out of there. Yet God hardened Pharoah's heart once more and he went after them. However you put it, God was instrumental in enhancing Pharoah's rebellious nature to show his (God's) sovereignty and power to his chosen people.


He extraordinarily orchestrated Judas' betrayal of Jesus to accomplish his purpose of providing the way of salvation for all of mankind.

Obviously I disagree with you here. God did not just provide a "way" of salvation. He provided the means of salvation.

No need to disagree here, you misquoted me. I did not say "a way," I said "the way." As in "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

"His eternal purpose, according to the counsel of His will, whereby, for His own glory, He hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass" (Westminster Shorter Catechism).

I've never heard of the term "foreordain" used in a reference other than with election, but I guess it is applicable. It seems in keeping with "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

Here's a question for you. Was Judas betrayal of Jesus a sin? Was it a form of rejection? And if it was, did he find forgiveness when he realized what he had done and went back to confront the priests? Can this be compared to Peter's denial? Might be a good topic for a new thread. What is your take on it?


YBIC

[Reformationist]

Correct me if i'm wrong, for I don't wish to put words into your mouth, but it seems that you believe that God is solely responsible for the sanctification process, without any doing of our own.

Absolutely not. Sanctification, while it may not be equally divided between God and man is definitely a synergistic work, i.e., cooperative effort. That is why I made note of our work of putting off and putting on. :)

And throughout that process, our 'desires' (whether 'sin nature' or 'Spirit-led') are out of our own hands; God will adjust accordingly, as He sees fit, the strength or power of that desire - whether it be Spirit-led or sin-nature-led. I'll wait for your response before I continue, in case i've misinterpreted your point.

I don't think it works quite like that. I believe that the more time we spend in prayer and in study of the Word, basically, in communion with God, the more likely we are to desire to obey Him. I do believe that God's grace is essential in pleasing Him and obeying Him but I do not think He does it for us. We make real decisions.

~peace~

~peace~ to you too. :)

God bless

[Reformationist]

So why would it be His will to not extend His grace to certain individuals, effectively forcing them to continue in sin?

Well, God's ways are certainly above our ways so presuming to know His reasons for doing things involves a bit of conjecture and in my opinion you seem to be overlooking the fact that God isn't obligated to give us grace, not for any reason. Restraining us from sin is not God's responsibility so He's not accountable for our sin if He doesn't. Your verbiage, "effectively forcing them to continue in sin" seems to indicate that God is obligated to keep us from sinning.

We are agreed that if God does not help the fallen human, he will invariably continue in sin. It is my position that God would never want a person to continue in sin. He may use their sinfulness for His glory, but He would rather have them repent and not sin. Since God hates sin, I cannot see the logic in thinking that He would want someone to continue to sin....

Again, I think your wording is painting the wrong picture of God's sovereign government of His creation. To say that God "wants someone to continue in sin," which I don't think anyone has said, is to implicate God's involvement in unrighteousness. However, there is a big difference between saying God wants someone to sin and saying that God allows someone to sin to manifest His plan.

And if you agree that God wants all people to stop sinning, you are agreeing that God wants all people to have salvation, since one could not stop sinning without salvation. Read carefully here: I am not saying that if they stopped sinning, that would make them saved. I am saying that there is no way that they could stop sinning, unless they were already saved.

Actually, one cannot stop sinning without the glorification of their bodies.

Do you think that God wants the "unelect" (if that is a word) to continue in their sins?

In the reformed community they are called the reprobate. As for God's disposition towards their sin I would say that He despises it. Again, and most importantly, God is not obligated to grace someone with the ability to overcome their sin so He is not liable if He doesn't.

I think that He will allow them to, but that He wants them to stop and makes that possible.

How does He "make that possible?" Also, if God want's them to stop why would He "allow" them to continue sinning? You make God out to be some impotent Ruler. He wants one thing and does another. That makes no sense.

Amen, brother! We may wonder how to please God when there is no clear direction of what His will is in a given situation (should I post on Christian Forums or read in my Bible instead?). But if it is our main -- no, our only -- goal to please God, then that is what we will end up doing.

I agree. Unfortunately, I don't believe that our only goal at any point that we are in this wretched body will be to please God. Pray that He will help us to desire it most though. :)

God bless

[Reformationist]

I would like to add to this the fact that God loves us infinitely. And his desire is for us to return that love (though we can't possibly in the same measure) and to do his will because of love for him. Therein, we have fellowship with him and he with us. I believe this is the essence of "his eternal plan." God walked and talked with Adam and Eve while they were still in their pure state and that is what he wants to do with all of us.

Agreed. And, as amazing as the thought is, that is what He WILL do with all of His children.

Think of it: With God, two wrongs can make a right.

LOL! Good point.

While I do see the validity of this statement and how it pertains to Pharoah, my impression is, that as evil and rebellious as Pharoah was, he might have let Israel go earlier than he did in order to avoid more plagues. Of course, this is pure speculation. But in point of fact, after facing the onslaught of several of the plagues, Pharoah did offer a compromise to the outright release of the Hebrews. Of course it was unacceptable and more plagues came. Then another compromise offer, more plagues, another compromise offer. Nine times God hardened Pharoah's heart, three times Pharoah hardened his own heart, and five times it is simply stated that Pharoah's heart was hardened. So it follows that Pharoah might have been inclined to let them go had God not hardened, or as you put it, removed his restraining hand from his natural nature. Finally, after the "death of the firstborn," Pharoah could stand it no longer and commanded Moses to get his people out of there. Yet God hardened Pharoah's heart once more and he went after them. However you put it, God was instrumental in enhancing Pharoah's rebellious nature to show his (God's) sovereignty and power to his chosen people.

I would agree with this, with the exception of the idea that God played a part in enhancing Pharaoh's rebellious nature. Think of it like a tap that is open full blast. Over that tap is a separate valve. Without that valve the tap would be spilling forth at full blast. The valve opens and closes to serve a purpose but its opening and closing does not change the nature of the tap itself. It merely regulates it. That's what God does. He regulates our sinfulness to manifest His divine plan. It is not His obligation to do so but we cannot hold Him any more accountable for the inherent wickedness of man when He greatly restains us vice when He leaves man to His wickedness.

No need to disagree here, you misquoted me. I did not say "a way," I said "the way." As in "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

My apologies.

Was Judas betrayal of Jesus a sin?

Yes.

Was it a form of rejection?

Yes.

And if it was, did he find forgiveness when he realized what he had done and went back to confront the priests?

No. Judas found no forgiveness. Not only was Judas always an enemy of God, Judas was not repentant for what he'd done. Remorseful, yes. Repentant, absolutely not.

Can this be compared to Peter's denial? Might be a good topic for a new thread. What is your take on it?

I think the most helpful aspect of the comparison between Judas and Peter's denial, and one that I have made on numerous occasions, is the role of the Lord Jesus in their perspective denials. Jesus prayed that Peter would be preserved. His preservation was a source of great faith for Peter and caused him to boldly preach the message of the Cross. In this we can see the efficacy of Christ's atonement for us, even in the face of our own unfaithfulness. Peter, despite being an Apostle of Christ, was frightened into denying Him by a little girl. His faith was clearly not the reason he was preserved. Jesus made no such provision for Judas.

God bless

[TSIBHOD]

Well, God's ways are certainly above our ways so presuming to know His reasons for doing things involves a bit of conjecture and in my opinion you seem to be overlooking the fact that God isn't obligated to give us grace, not for any reason. Restraining us from sin is not God's responsibility so He's not accountable for our sin if He doesn't. Your verbiage, "effectively forcing them to continue in sin" seems to indicate that God is obligated to keep us from sinning.
It is my understanding that Calvinists (or Reformed Christians) believe that men are totally unable to come to God without Him enabling them. I believe this too, but where I differ from a Calvinist is that I think that God enables everyone to come to Him. That is, I believe that it is possible for any given person to come to Christ, and God lets their will decide this. This is supported in scripture (as is predestination), and if you want to believe that God predestinates the salvation or reprobation of each person, then it must be through a vein that He predestines their desires. All who seek find, so if God predestines salvation, it must be that He predestines the choices. They are still choices made by people, although in a way, in this situation it would be God acting through people to accomplish His will. In any case, human will is definitely involved, I think you will agree; the questionable part is whether human will is free or not.

Again, I think your wording is painting the wrong picture of God's sovereign government of His creation. To say that God "wants someone to continue in sin," which I don't think anyone has said, is to implicate God's involvement in unrighteousness. However, there is a big difference between saying God wants someone to sin and saying that God allows someone to sin to manifest His plan.
You don't believe that a "totally depraved" individual has even the possibility of pleasing God, correct? Not pleasing God=sin, so in other words, if you believe this, then a totally depraved person will by definition continually sin. The question that I ask is, "If God wants sin to cease, why would He leave some in total depravity, effectually giving them no chance not to sin?" They were born in sin, and if God gives them no chance to stop sinning, then they *will* sin. It is possible for Christians not to sin (for however brief periods of time). This is because they are empowered by the Holy Spirit. If God wants the reprobate not to sin, surely He offers them the Holy Spirit to make that possible. Yes, I know that it is still their "fault," but that doesn't change that in your situation, we have God wanting them not to sin, but not making the alternative even a possibility. When God wanted Peter to walk on the water, He made that possible. In the same way, when God wants sinners to repent (that would be in the case of every sinner), He makes it possible for them not to sin. And to clarify, God *does* want all sin to cease. He does not desire for any person to sin (since the virtual definition of sin is something that God does not want or do), although He *can* use their sin/sinfulness for His glory.

Actually, one cannot stop sinning without the glorification of their bodies.
Agreed, although when I talk about "stopping sinning," I am talking about short periods of time.

In the reformed community they are called the reprobate. As for God's disposition towards their sin I would say that He despises it. Again, and most importantly, God is not obligated to grace someone with the ability to overcome their sin so He is not liable if He doesn't.
God is not "obligated," of course, but if He does in fact want people to stop sinning, then He will enable this by the Holy Spirit. He will offer them salvation if He really wants them not to sin. This is a logical necessity. The only possible out (that I see) is that you might think that God wants people to continue in sin for some greater purpose, but I do not think that this is the case. As I have stated before, God can use their sin for His glorification, but He does not want them to sin.

Let's give an analogy to make this clearer. You don't want to see your child get hurt. Your child is about to touch a hot stove. It will not be your fault if your child touches the stove. However, since you want your child to be saved from harm, you tell your child not to touch the stove. Just because you wouldn't be to blame doesn't mean that you won't do something to stop your child from getting hurt. In the same way, just because God is not to blame for a sinner's sins does not mean that He would allow them to continue in their sin without any chance of not sinning. If they are stuck in a pit, and God wants them out of the pit, how does it follow that when He is able to offer His hand to help them out, He does not?

How does He "make that possible?" Also, if God want's them to stop why would He "allow" them to continue sinning? You make God out to be some impotent Ruler. He wants one thing and does another. That makes no sense.
Well, both of us have God wanting one thing and allowing another. I believe that God wants all men to be saved, but He allows them to reject that. You apparently believe that God doesn't want sin (that's pretty unarguable, I think), yet He leaves some people totally depraved and unable to do anything *but* sin. In either your theology or mine, God is allowing something that He would rather not happen. This doesn't make God an impotent Ruler in either case. It simply means that He wants one thing, but wants another thing more that keeps Him from forcing His will in another situation. I don't know about your case, but in my case, for example, I believe that God wants everyone to stop sinning, but He wants even more for them to have the choice of either sin or righteousness (Romans 6:16 shows that we have this choice). God may be omnipotent, but it is a logical impossibility for God to force someone not to sin and simultaneously allow them to choose sin or righteousness.

I have a question in response to your question, which was, "If God want's them to stop why would He 'allow' them to continue sinning?" Are you implying that you think that God *does* want people to continue sinning, since they in fact do? I see countless verses that say God hates sin, God wants people to repent, etc., but I don't see any that say God wants people to sin. He can turn their sins to work His purpose, but He doesn't seem to ever *want* people to sin.

Please note that I do believe in God's predestination; I just believe that man has free will too. Free will does not mean omnipotence, but I think that every man has salvation or not based on what he seeks ("seek and ye shall find"). And I believe that God makes it possible for everyone to seek Him. If we can't wrap our minds around how predestination and free will work together, that doesn't mean we should throw one of them out. That has been done before with faith and works. Of course, only faith is needed, but what faith do you have if there are no works to evidence it?

[theseed]

Very well put Ref, I take joy in knowing that I am apart of God's program and that I get to experiance His Providence, which brought me salvation.:clap:

[LynneClomina]

Yes I do agree with this perspective. Actually, I firmly believed I was in the Calvin camp, until the predestintation - foreknowledge and election gets sketchy:scratch:

I can agree with this too. :clap:



Yes it makes sense, but I think it leaves much to be desired on a full understanding of what we do know and have been made aware of regarding God. He has no need to manipulate us as our earthly parents or even as us being earthly parents. That is the Glory of God. And what is so very exciting to me about his love for (all of) us!


Yes I also agree to this, However I do not believe that God ever lets us down (actually this goes against scripture) by not offering us the correct path, it is US whom lets God down.I feel the highlighted statement is implying this. I am not so sure that is what you mean here.:confused:

I think you have got it! This is what I suspected all along!

You are such a dear sweet soul! Thanks for your response!:hug:

hi flyn!

i dont feel that by God not stepping in sometimes that He FAILS us. He is both being just and working all things according to the purposes of His will.

also, i feel it's a little backwards for us to say that man being able to do something on his own is to God's glory - it's to man's glory.

we as ppl have this issue with wanting the think the best of our own capabilities. but so far as i can see that is not what the bible teaches about us, it tells us that our hearts are deceitfully wicked in all its ways, and that no one does good, no, not one.

1 Corinthians 1:27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

never boasting in ourselves. i dare not. the Word says right here, if your gonna boast, it can only be in the Lord, not in ourselves. i dont take that as a suggestion! i take it as a command. i will not boast in myself. (except sometimes i probably do when i forget who i am compared to who my great big God is!)

and, i found the verses before hand to be very interesting....

1 Corinthians 1:22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

this is pretty clear that if you're not called, the gospel is INDEED foolishness. but if you are called, when you hear the gospel of Christ crucified, it will not be either a stumbling block or foolishness, but to those who are called it is Christ THE POWER OF GOD and THE WISDOM OF GOD. amen!

be blessed! :hug:

[LynneClomina]

Correct me if i've misinterpreted what you've said, but are you saying that He "does not put us in the desire to do the non-sinful thing"? What then, is the purpose of the Holy Spirit, indwelt in us? sometimes He does, sometimes He doesnt. at His own discretion.
And you said "God is 'capable' of giving us urges that are stronger than the urge to sin"? capable? As new creations, don't we have a 'constant urge' through the Spirit, contrary to that of sinning? if the Holy Spirit is ALWAYS giving us the desire to do good, and we dont do it even though, the He is FAILING. it may be there is some small degree, but not the strongest desire. is God then giving us strong urges but is He can't quite make them strong enough to influence us? if that is all the Holy Spirit is capable of, then He's useless, wouldnt you say????

Or are you saying that even though we have the Spirit indwelt, God will 'suppress' or 'promote' the amount of guidance that the Spirit leads us with, as He freely chooses to? :scratch: yep. pretty much. the Spirit only does what He is told to - He don't go against the Father and the Son. and God doesnt have to "suppress", because the Holy Spirit does not operate outside of the Godhead - ie, He aint no lone ranger.

You also said "i sin far too much. because God does NOT ALWAYS step in and give us the strongest desire of doing good" Personally, I believe that this desire is ALWAYS there (in a new creation). but obviousely it's not the strongest desire. we may have for varying reason the motivation to do good, but it is weak. if it werent weak, if it were in fact strong, then we would always be winning the battle against our flesh. We just have to learn to be led by it, and surrender to it. And I don't believe that the act of surrendering to God's will is a 'work', even though it entails action on our behalf.i dont believe that i can surrender to God's will on my own. it is entirely on God's power. in my weakness, HE is proven strong. becuase i do not boast that i can choose good. i dont dare. i boast in my God. so i give Him the credit. i will not even entertain the thought that i am capable of good without Him. uh-uh. nope.

blessings :wave:

[LynneClomina]

I posted something to this effect a while back and, sadly, it did not get very many good reviews. I think part of it is that we, as Christians, misunderstand the nature of our natures. While it is no longer our "nature" to sin we still have a sin nature. It was crucified but it is not gone from us. God, for reasons unknown, has chosen to leave us in our sinful flesh and the "putting off" of this old man and "putting on" of righteousness is the process of sanctification.

I would not presume to speak for LynneClomina but I will tell you the reasoning behind this belief. Just for the record, I fully support the idea that we, in fact, MUST choose according to our strongest desire or inclination at the moment of decision. If you ask anyone what motivates them to choose one way or another when faced with a choice most of them will give you a blank stare. The truth is that we are NOT neutral beings. We are not equally as righteous as we are sinful. If that were the case then we would never make ANY decisions because we would be equally influenced by opposite factors. So, the catalyst for our decisions is our will. Our will is most certainly influenced by our desires. In fact, it is SO influenced by our desires that we MUST choose according to our greatest desire or inclination when we are faced with a choice. If you're honest about yourself there is not a decision you've ever made that cannot be seen in this light.

I will ask someone, "When you sinned what made you do it?" They often say things like, "I don't know. I want to please God." They may very well want to please God. Pleasing God, however, was NOT their greatest desire when they made the choice to sin. Their greatest desire was to feed their flesh so, simply, they did. That's why it is ever important to nourish our desire to please God by praying and reading His Word.

God bless
i fully agree, reformationist!

[Reformationist]

It is my understanding that Calvinists (or Reformed Christians) believe that men are totally unable to come to God without Him enabling them.

That's correct.

I believe this too, but where I differ from a Calvinist is that I think that God enables everyone to come to Him. That is, I believe that it is possible for any given person to come to Christ, and God lets their will decide this.

So coming to Christ is not necessarily a guaranteed result of His grace but only a possibility? Am I right in understanding you to mean that God merely enables man to come to Him but does not ensure it? Tell me, in light of that belief, how do you reconcile verses of this nature:

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

This verse is very telling, in a couple of ways. First, it says, "All that the Father gives me..." If, as you contend, the Father gives all people to Christ why does Jesus distinguish between those He is given and those He is not given. Granted, He does this in an unspoken manner but He does it. It would be like saying, "Every dollar I give you is your's to spend." I am clearly making a distinction between the dollars that I give you and those that I don't, even though I am not blatantly acknowledging that those I don't give you are not your's to spend, wouldn't you agree? For the sake of discussion I'm going to assume you're not a universalist. So, what do you think it means to "come to Christ?" Unless you say otherwise I'll assume you, like most Christians, don't actually believe everyone comes to Christ. So we are faced with believing that either Jesus lied/was wrong and there are some that the Father gives Him that don't actually come, or, we can acknowledge that the Father doesn't acutally give all people to Christ. So, if the latter be the case, as I believe it is, are we to assume th