Question about Communion

[Christy4Christ]

Hi everyone :wave:

I was wondering, do MJ believe in the real presence during communion? In other words transubstanciation?

[Christy4Christ]

I will develop my point and then see if anyone here agrees or disagrees.


During the Seder feast, it is true that the Jews who celebrate this don't just remember, they actually believe they become the slaves being lead out of Egypt?

In the scripture, when Jesus said, this is my body, and then He said "Do this in remembrance of me" the word used was anamnesis which actually means to relive.

We know that at first this teaching was too hard for the apostles to understand and they did not accept it so quickly.

Now, in the Catholic church we believe that much in the same way as the principle behind the seder feast, the bread actually becomes Jesus all over again. We relive rather than remember.

[simchat_torah]

I was wondering, do MJ believe in the real presence during communion? In other words transubstanciation?
The Messianics that do practice communion don't believe in transubstanciation.

During the Seder feast, it is true that the Jews who celebrate this don't just remember, they actually believe they become the slaves being lead out of Egypt?

No.

the word used was anamnesis which actually means to relive.
Actually, anamnesis is understood to be "soul memory". Exactly what that means is up to your own interpretation I suppose. But it doesn't literally mean 'to relive'.

We know that at first this teaching was too hard for the apostles to understand and they did not accept it so quickly.

Actually, transubstanciation was not introduced for a few hundred years after the first believers. So I guess you could say it took them a looong time to "understand" it ;)

Now, in the Catholic church we believe that much in the same way as the principle behind the seder feast, the bread actually becomes Jesus all over again. We relive rather than remember.
I'm not quite sure where this information was found, but it certainly isn't a Jewish or Messianic concept... fyi.

Shalom!
yafet

[Christy4Christ]

This is a paragraph from the site I have provided. This is where I got the info, perhaps I misunderstood it...

The word "Seder" means order. The tradition understands the Passover table ritual as a fixed progression, 15 steps, a logical unfolding of the single most important Jewish lesson from the retelling of the single most significant Jewish experience. In actuality, the Pesach Seder is one of the most carefully constructed learning experiences ever created. In an amazing combination of aural and tactile learning tasks, the Seder has something for everybody--drink, food, symbols, prayers, songs, stories, philosophy, text study, simulations, ritual actions--all designed with one overall goal: to take each person at the Seder back to Egypt, to re-enact the dramatic Exodus story, to make each one of us feel as she or he had actually been redeemed from Mitzrayim (Egypt).

http://tiwestport.org/passover/outline.html

[Domi_Adsum_05]

Christy,
But you asked, regarding Jews at the Seder, whether "they actually believe they become the slaves being lead out of Egypt?"

Yafet said no.

And the quote you provide agrees with Yafet.

to make each one of us feel as she or he had actually been redeemed from Mitzrayim (Egypt)To feel (or empathize with) is not to believe that we become those slaves.

[Christy4Christ]

Anyway, thank you Yafet for answering my question. If there is more info you think I would benefit from then feel free to PM me :)

I see that I did misunderstand the meaning of the paragraph, I just wanted you to see where I read it :)

[simchat_torah]

The following:all designed with one overall goal: to take each person at the Seder back to Egypt, to re-enact the dramatic Exodus story, to make each one of us feel as she or he had actually been redeemed from Mitzrayim (Egypt).
is quite different from:
it is true that the Jews who celebrate this don't just remember, they actually believe they become the slaves being lead out of Egypt?

No one actually "becomes" a slave... it is purely a time of rememberance of G-d's deliverance.

So, basically... Tribe was right on.

Shalom,
yafet

[Christy4Christ]

I am wondering where this belief came from? This is something I have also heard before in relation to Seder, that the people actually believed they became the slaves. I am wondering now why this is also taught by certain people if it is not the case. I am going to try and find out where some of the other sources came from. This is confusing, to say the least...

[Domi_Adsum_05]

I also often see it stated that we should also use the opportunity to remember all who have been, or still are, enslaved.

[mbams]

Do MJ's practics communion like other churches do? If not, how is it different, and why?

[simchat_torah]

Do MJ's practics communion like other churches do? If not, how is it different, and why?

Well, there are quite a few flavors of MJ'ism, but typically there is no communion. We observe Passover instead. As to why... we don't see the institution of a new practice, but rather added meaning to an already existing practice (passover).

shalom,
yafet

[mbams]

Thank you for the quick response simchat_torah. :)
How do you add to it? What new elements do you bring in?

[simchat_torah]

Thank you for the quick response simchat_torah. :)
How do you add to it? What new elements do you bring in?

Most messianics add in sections to the Haggadah (passover liturgy) that specifically recognizes Y'shua the Messiah.

I tend not to do that, but use the traditional haggadah, but "remember" him during this time.

shalom,
yafet

[Charlesinflorida]

Do MJ's practics communion like other churches do? If not, how is it different, and why?

The bread and the wine that we are to take and remember Him in was particular to the Passover Seder. We are told to "Keep the feast" and to reember the Messiah in it till He comes.

The weekly or monthly communion is sometimes a substitution or this Passover which takes place once a year. In some churches they believe the "Element" become actual blood and flesh, which is an abomination to God. We are never to consume blood or eat Human flesh.

At the same time there IS what is called a Covenant meal, which is usually bread and wine. It is eaten often as a rememberance of a coveant relationship that you have with someone. Usually both parties are present. For a believer to practice a renewing of the coveant through Messiah by have a covenantal meal of bread and wine is ine. But they must rememebr and restate the terms of the covenant. Yeshua made a covenant for us, between Elohim and us. The terms of that covenant is that we are to obey his commandments and be his people and he will in turn be our elohim. This covenant is sealed in Messiah, as he is to covenantal head.

This does not replace, take the place of Passover.

Charles the Messimaniac

[P_G]

Christy

I wanted to say something on this yesterday but just didn't get around to it.

I know that within your church that the theology of transubstantiation is held in the most highest level. It is indeed centric to Catholic doctrine. But I think you are going to find that most other beleivers in Y'shua be they messianic or protestant are not going to hold to that at all.

What Charles said basically lines up with how I would teach. That the celebration of the Lords Table is a covenant meal. It is not passover. Nor would Y'shua have wanted his followers to litterally eat the flesh of any creature that was living nor drink it's blood (let alone a man) as it would violate the Noachide laws.

Do we have a time of communion in my church - yes
Is it passover - no
Do we ferverently remember Y'shuas sacrifice - yes
Is it really his body and blood - G-d forbid
Does he honor our obedience - yes
Is he really present - He always is!

One thing that is a sticker with me and that is the use of levened bread
durring any time of the Lords Supper. I just think that is wrong.


Bless you Christy

Sweet Spirit

Pastor George :wave:

[simchat_torah]

As I said, Messianic Judaism is quite varied ;)

[Charlesinflorida]

Hey Pastor George,

It seems we are pretty much in agreement. I think the choice for bread is not too important for a covenant meal. For some unleaven is all they may eat. However for Passover, it must be unleavened. Abraham had Sarah make bread for the three guests that came to his tent. He recognized one of them as Elohim. I think that because of the quick nature in which the bread was prepared would rule out leavened bread which takes quite some time. And Abraham knew that since this was Elohim visiting him, and that they were very much in covenant at that time, we can say it is OK to have unleavened bread for a covenant meal.

However Elohim does not detest leavened bread. The show-bread was leavened. As so also the bread of Shavuot that is offered to God at the altar. The two loves I believe representing Jews and Gentiles lifted up together, with the humaness, weakness, sinful nature (leaven) in them. For the fellowship meal, breaking bread together, either is fine and leavened is prefered for its flavor and warmth.

These are just my thouhts on it. I am not a part of the Beit Din.

Charles the crazy Messimaniac

[koilias]

Christy...I like your argumentation, but do not think it supports the doctrine of transubstantiation, since what it suggests instead is that we experience our transformation from slavery to freedom in Yeshua (It's we not the bread and wine that transform)...In ancient Judaism there was a practice in which Rabbis gathered to fellowhip, I believe it's called a Hever meal, a "friendship meal" and I think this is what Yeshua was observing with his talmidim (since it wasn't the Passover). During or after a Hever meal, topics normally not discussed were discussed freely and openly, so, I may be wrong, but a friend of mine studying the subject in Israel suggests that the mysteries of the world were discussed at that time. I think what Yohannan says in his gospel is that what happened at the meal was that Yeshua's disciples were "graduated" from their studies and were now "friends" of HaShem and not "slaves". The bread and wine to me represents my "friendship" with HaShem, my ability to sit at His table. And I also believe that the bread and wine represent Yeshua's teaching...Since that's the teaching that brings me to true communion with G-d.

Still, if your perspective helps you relate better to Yeshua then I am happy it leads those in your tradition to Jewish tradition and spirituality.

Shalom.

[simchat_torah]

A Hever (also Haver, Chaver, or Chever depending on transliteration) meal is often referred to as a "love" feast... referred to in Jude and Acts. They would gather the community together (not just rabbis) and break the Challah bread. Everyone would have plenty of bread, no matter how poor or hungry. The grain represented the people being gathered in from the field into one loaf... or one body. In Acts it mentions the breaking of bread, and this is a reference to the Love Feast (or Hever) and Jude mentions the love feast itself.

However, this was not 'communion', but an act of kindness that was shared with the community.

shalom,
yafet

[P_G]

I am so glad you are back from your sabbath Charles

What will you all do now that there are 2 fiesty old men around to contend with?


The reason I am opposed to using leavened bread for this purpouse is mostly symbolic. As you know leavining has always been considered a symbol and type of mans sin even from the earliest times. Thus in a symbolic jesture such as the Lords Table where this bread would be taken to remind us or bring to mind the sinless messiah, it seems very innapropriate to me to use something which has the symbolic nature of sin to represent him who had no sin.

Also I like the fact that Matzoh is both striped and pierced.

Though I do not use wine at all but rather Kedem grape juice. Given my past lack of success with beverage alcohol it is really best that I put exactly 0% into my body! ;)


Blessings

Much Love - Hey Christy are you learning anything? :D

Pastor George :wave:

[Christy4Christ]

Yes I am learning alot about what you all believe communion is or is not :)

[Charlesinflorida]

I am so glad you are back from your sabbath Charles

What will you all do now that there are 2 fiesty old men around to contend with?


The reason I am opposed to using leavened bread for this purpouse is mostly symbolic. As you know leavining has always been considered a symbol and type of mans sin even from the earliest times. Thus in a symbolic jesture such as the Lords Table where this bread would be taken to remind us or bring to mind the sinless messiah, it seems very innapropriate to me to use something which has the symbolic nature of sin to represent him who had no sin.

Also I like the fact that Matzoh is both striped and pierced.

Though I do not use wine at all but rather Kedem grape juice. Given my past lack of success with beverage alcohol it is really best that I put exactly 0% into my body! ;)


Blessings

Much Love - Hey Christy are you learning anything? :D

Pastor George :wave:


Thanks Pastor George,

I understand your reasons. Nothing wrong with that either.

As for the two old men, I can tell you that this one is still very tired and not much fight left in him.

Charles the "Chocked full of nuts" Messimaniac

[P_G]

Thanks Pastor George,

I understand your reasons. Nothing wrong with that either.

As for the two old men, I can tell you that this one is still very tired and not much fight left in him.

Charles the "Chocked full of nuts" Messimaniac
I hear you brother I hear you!
I am kind of getting beat up around these parts too
but we tarry on and fight the good fight.

Lets go golfing eh?

PG :wave:

[ShirChadash]

/me promises not to beat on CIF or PG.


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_9_133.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

well maybe just this once!

[ShirChadash]

:sorry:




http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_12.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)
I couldn't resist I tell ya!

[P_G]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_9_133.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)


OW!

[simchat_torah]

This young pup could go rounds and rounds ;)

[ShirChadash]

*never one to leave anyone out...*

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_120.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

there ya go Yaf!




http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_131.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)
and one for me too!




http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_200.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[koilias]

A Hever (also Haver, Chaver, or Chever depending on transliteration) meal is often referred to as a "love" feast... referred to in Jude and Acts. They would gather the community together (not just rabbis) and break the Challah bread. Everyone would have plenty of bread, no matter how poor or hungry. The grain represented the people being gathered in from the field into one loaf... or one body. In Acts it mentions the breaking of bread, and this is a reference to the Love Feast (or Hever) and Jude mentions the love feast itself.

However, this was not 'communion', but an act of kindness that was shared with the community.

shalom,
yafet
Interesting...Well maybe this was a different meal that my friend was talking about. It was one assembled for a priviliged few. But I don't know the source for his view. Also, I think it may be called a "Hevrah" meal, I forgot the exact name...Maybe INOrder knows the right name.

[simchat_torah]

I've heard it called Chaver... its a play on Chavier (friend in hebrew).

So, I assumed that your spelling of hever was a different transliteration.

*shrugs*

[mbams]

I've heard it called Chaver... its a play on Chavier (friend in hebrew).



Whoohoo! I know actually knew that word in Hebrew! I sometimes feel lost with all the Hebrew words I don't know (yet), so I am excited that I understood something! Ok,... just thought I would share my moment of joy.

[ShirChadash]

:clap: :hug:

wooooohooooo mbams!

It takes some time for sure. I've found everyone is very nice about supplying translation if anyone posts asking for it. So just jump right in, Girlfriend! :pink:

[koilias]

I've heard it called Chaver... its a play on Chavier (friend in hebrew).

So, I assumed that your spelling of hever was a different transliteration.

*shrugs*
Yes that's the same word. (I learned Israeli Hebrew so I transliterate that, I'm completely unfamiliar with Ashkenazi pronounciations.)

Regardless of what the meal was...I really like the "Haver meal" idea. If only "Communion" today was about inviting the poor to sit at our table!

[debi b]

Isn't this essentially the same conversation that Polycarp had with Anicetus?

[koilias]

Isn't this essentially the same conversation that Polycarp had with Anicetus?Please elaborate...I'm not familiar with this conversation. I know Polycarp was a student of Yohannan, but that's it.

[koilias]

Never mind, I found this:

It was during his pontificate that Saint Polycarp (http://www.fact-index.com/p/po/polycarp.html), a disciple of Saint John the Divine (http://www.fact-index.com/j/jo/john_the_evangelist.html), visited the Roman Church. Polycarp and Anicetus discussed on what date to celebrate Easter (http://www.fact-index.com/e/ea/easter.html). Polycarp and his Church of Smyrna celebrated Easter on the 14th day of Nisan (http://www.fact-index.com/n/ni/nisan.html), which is the day of Pesach (http://www.fact-index.com/p/pa/passover.html), while the Roman Church used to celebrate Easter on Sunday, since this is the weekday of Jesus (http://www.fact-index.com/j/je/jesus_christ.html)' resurrection (http://www.fact-index.com/r/re/resurrection.html), and Jesus resurrection on a Sunday is the reason for Sunday being the holy day in Christianity (http://www.fact-index.com/c/ch/christianity_1.html). Polycarp and Anicetus did not agree on a common date, but Anicetus allowed Polycarp to keep the date he was used to. The controversy was to accelerate and grow more heated in the course of the following centuries.

VERY interesting..huh, my MJ achim?

Yes, my friend in Israel says Yohannan's gospel assumes this doctrine of the Pesach. Yohannan was probably read in Polycarp's church during Pesach. The church later in the second century declared the observance of Pesach heretical...

[debi b]

If you trace it out Polycarp wanted to talk to Anicetus about Passover, but Anicetus position was that the Eucharist was sufficient. It eventually developed into the "Quartodeimans controversy".