Hey....

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Do all churches on the New Calendar have the same Gospel/epistle readings on Sundays? Today's homily was very good. The Gospel was about the parable of the seeds (some planted on rocky ground, etc...). Fr. talked about how the gnostics twisted the interpretation of that parable to mean that only certain people are chosen (a.k.a, "predestined") to be saved. Then of course, he talked about how this gnostic teaching influenced Calvin and Zwinglie (msp?).

Did y'all get the same Gospel/epistle reading today? [can't remember which epistle off hand....]

[countrymousenc]

That's the same gospel reading we had; I think everyone on the New Calendar probably had it, also. Wow, I didn't know that the gnostics were the first ones to reinterpret that parable the way the Calvinists have. I wonder whether Calvin and Zwingli actually knew where that idea came from. Interesting.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

That's the same gospel reading we had; I think everyone on the New Calendar probably had it, also. Wow, I didn't know that the gnostics were the first ones to reinterpret that parable the way the Calvinists have. I wonder whether Calvin and Zwingli actually knew where that idea came from. Interesting.
I kind of doubt it. The churches that believe that now probably have no idea it has gnostic roots. Gnostic heresy seems to have had a huge impact on all of Christianity, Orthodoxy included. This heresy has not been totally stamped out.

[Marjorie]

As I understand it, the Reformers (Calvin especially) were highly influenced by Augustine, who was a former Manichean and still kept some of the gnostic beliefs associated with Manicheanism, including in regards to predestination.

Although this shouldn't be taken as the usual Orthodox Augustine-bashing... I quite like his writings, just not his theology.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

As I understand it, the Reformers (Calvin especially) were highly influenced by Augustine, who was a former Manichean and still kept some of the gnostic beliefs associated with Manicheanism, including in regards to predestination.

Although this shouldn't be taken as the usual Orthodox Augustine-bashing... I quite like his writings, just not his theology.

In IC XC,
Marjorie
Well......now I have another new word to look up: Manicheanism. I hadn't heard of that one yet!

[countrymousenc]

As I understand it, the Reformers (Calvin especially) were highly influenced by Augustine, who was a former Manichean and still kept some of the gnostic beliefs associated with Manicheanism, including in regards to predestination.

Although this shouldn't be taken as the usual Orthodox Augustine-bashing... I quite like his writings, just not his theology.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

I have read several chapters of St. Augustine's Confessions, and found it truly inspiring. Calvin and Zwingli probably didn't realize how much Manicheism Augustine retained in his theology. In a fit of reactionism against indulgences, the Reformers were anxious to do away with what they saw as arrogance toward God, the idea that people can do anything to earn salvation. Calvinists rationalized that even believing would be a meritorious "work" unless it was God who caused the belief. Since some people believe and others don't, in order to avoid giving credit to those who do believe (rather than giving all credit to God) it becomes necessary to think that God gives grace to some but not to others (unconditional election) and that all to whom he gives grace respond by believing (irresistable grace). Now, if you ignore or explain away certain passages of Scripture (by claiming that you're interpreting what's unclear according to what's clear), you can appear to make it supportable. But then, you have to decide that the Church Fathers were not very good theologians and that the Church became corrupt.

Then try arguing with them, and they call you over-rationalistic because you reject Sola Scriptura. It does get interesting.

[Oblio]

A few weeks ago our Priest explained that during this season (the Gospel of Luke), the various Churches (Greek, Russian, Antiochian ...) are out of sync during the week, however we remain in sync on Sunday.

[prodromos]

I have read several chapters of St. Augustine's Confessions, and found it truly inspiring.
Theological Discussion on Eight Teachings of Augustine of Hippo (http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/augustine8.html)

[countrymousenc]

Theological Discussion on Eight Teachings of Augustine of Hippo (http://www.geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/augustine8.html)


Thank you, John; I had very little idea how many errors Augustine was responsible for.

An excerpt from the article:

1. The Filioque Heresy

Augustine was the author of the Filioque, that heresy which eventually cut off the West from the Orthodox Church. Even after the Second Ecumenical Synod, Augustine was emphatically teaching: God the Father is He from Whom the Word is born and from Whom the Holy Spirit principally proceeds. I have used the word principally, so that it may be understood that the Spirit proceeds from the Son also. [On the Trinity, 15:16:29]... The Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Father into the Son and then proceed from the Son for our sanctification; but He proceeds from Both at the same time, although the Father has given this to the Son, that just as the Holy Spirit proceeds from Himself, so He also proceeds from the Son. [On the Trinity, 15:27]

It is no wonder that Luther, having been an Augustinian monk, was unwilling to part with the filioque. He was indoctrinated with this.

What a mess.