Election:Talk is cheap

[billwald]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works?

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.

If election is a random process, then considering the world population, it is statistically improbable that anyone in the OPC (or the CRC or any numerically small Christian denomination) is "elect."

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

[Knight]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works?
I'm not sure I understand this. Would you please clarify?

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.
Just because it may seem random to us does not mean that it is.

If election is a random process, then considering the world population, it is statistically improbable that anyone in the OPC (or the CRC or any numerically small Christian denomination) is "elect."
What are you refering to with OPC and CPC?

God's Grace is not driven by numbers.

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?
Ref: Above question.

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?
I'm not sure what you mean by "basis".

[II Paradox II]

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.
1) The reasons for God's election is largely unknowable to us. what's the problem with that?

2) God reveals a few things about His election. He says that he elects for His own glory. That he raises the humble and lowers the proud. He says he does not bring in many wise or great, but many who are weak in the eyes of the world. Outside of that I cannot think of many other criteria...

ken

[LynneClomina]

i believe that when He CREATED me, no, nix that, when He PLANNED to create me, he stamped me with His mark - predestined to salvation. and he planned before the foundation of the world who was not predestined to salvation as well.

2 Tim 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.

[Bulldog]

What are you refering to with OPC and CPC?

OPC is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (opc.org). CPC is the Cumberland Presbyterian Church (cumberland.org).

[Bulldog]

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

:confused:

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

Election is not based on any quality of the person. We see this very clearly in Romans 9:11

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

That ;) is supposed to be a ; ) (minus the space)

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

I will reiterate Romans 9:11. God does not elect based upon either good or evil works. The paraphrase a little more of Romans 9, God has mercy and compassion upon whom he will. To say that God is unjust in his calling is to fail to recognize that God is the creator of all things and therefore is not "required" to save any. That he saves any is of his own pleasure. The thing created shall not say to creator, why hast thou made me thus?

Although God predestines some to mercy, and some to wrath, keep in mind that God works through the Gospel, through preaching of the word (Romans 10). God does not perform his works in a mysterious way. Those who hear the Gospel and are truly converted will have everlasting life.

[Reformationist]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works?

Eph 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

There you go. He elected us because it pleased Him and brought Him glory. IOW, it wasn't about you. It was about Him. Thank God. If we had to rely on God picking us based on our own good works not only would none of go to Heaven, we'd all gladly earn our way to hell many times over.

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.

Let me get this straight. Unless you understand why God did something then He did it for some arbitrary reason? Okay. So the sun is the center of our universe and billwald is the center of God's immutable plan. Got it.

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

Is this a trick question? Okay. I give. What are they going to say?

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

The pleasure of His good will. I know the idea that God gets to pick is unfair to you, despite the fact that if it weren't for Him we wouldn't exist but, fortunately, He is the one who picks and He doesn't base it on our works.

God bless

[BBAS 64]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works??
Good Day, Billwald

I do not Know exactly on what basis, This much I do know it is his basis alone. Wheather I understand it or not is not even an issue for God.

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.?
It may seem random from our POV, but I am sure it is not random "that is with out purpose".

If election is a random process, then considering the world population, it is statistically improbable that anyone in the OPC (or the CRC or any numerically small Christian denomination) is "elect."

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?
"if "that is a big word. What if God choses of his own good will and does so on no basis at all?

If the moon was made of Cheese?^_^ :cool:


Peace to u,

BBAS

[Bulldog]

When you think about it, it would be a crueler act for Gog to give us the choice then for Him to elect(whic is not cruel at all). I feel better knowing that my salvation is in the hand of Almighty God and not my sinful ones.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Consider also that if it is truly your decision to come to Christ, is it not then your decision to leave Christ, I.E. fall from grace?

[LynneClomina]

1.) humanity fell.

2.) the wages of sin is death.

3.) we are all going to hell.

4.) God is Just to send us all to hell. we deserve it. and He is God. he is justified in His sending us to hell!

5.) but wait a minute. God decided when he knew me before the foundation of the world that He was gonna save me. Just because. i rightly deserve hell. but he loves me and chooses to save me.

6.) wait a minute, that's not fair! your're right. if He was fair, he'd send me to hell to. but where in the bible does it say He's fair?

7.) so, i am predestined to salvation, while others are (by default) "destined" to eternal dangnation.

8.) in saving the elect, does that mean he owes something to the non-elect? yep, he owes them the wages of their sin - death. and believe me, they will get what they are owed.

[Bulldog]

8.) in saving the elect, does that mean he owes something to the non-elect? yep, he owes them the wages of their sin - death. and believe me, they will get what they are owed.

The elect also deserve this. But God, in his Grace saves us even when we do not deserve it. :clap: That's why election is fair. :)

[LynneClomina]

The elect also deserve this. But God, in his Grace saves us even when we do not deserve it. :clap: That's why election is fair. :)

yep, we deserve it too. but doesnt that prove that election is NOT "fair"?? ;)

[Bulldog]

yep, we deserve it too. but doesnt that prove that election is NOT "fair"?? ;)

True, it's not fair. A better word would be loving.

[LynneClomina]

True, it's not fair. A better word would be loving.
yeah. :bow: :kiss:

God is so good...

ELECTION ISNT FAIR, ITS LOVING.

amen.

[Lotar]

WWLS:

God has surely promised His grace to the humbled: that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realises that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, councels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another - God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident does not utterly despair himself, and so is not humbled before God; but plans out for himself (or at least hopes and longs for) a position, an occasion, a work, which shall bring him final salvation. But he who is out of doubt that his destiny depends entirely upon the will of God despairs entirely for himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such a man is very near to grace for his salvation.
-Martin Luther

[Reformationist]

WWLS:

God has surely promised His grace to the humbled: that is, to those who mourn over and despair of themselves. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled till he realises that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, councels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another - God alone. As long as he is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident does not utterly despair himself, and so is not humbled before God; but plans out for himself (or at least hopes and longs for) a position, an occasion, a work, which shall bring him final salvation. But he who is out of doubt that his destiny depends entirely upon the will of God despairs entirely for himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such a man is very near to grace for his salvation.
-Martin Luther

I have always loved Luther's ability to see through things to the heart of the matter. :clap:

God bless

[theFijian]

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?
Sheesh! It's a tad on the warm side in here! :P

Andy

[Knight]

Was there any point to this thread other than an attempted attack on Reformed Theology?

[Knight]

OPC is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (http://opc.org/). CPC is the Cumberland Presbyterian Church (http://cumberland.org/).
Thanks.

I'd not heard of these before.

[Reformationist]

Was there any point to this thread other than an attempted attack on Reformed Theology?

Doesn't look like it.

[LynneClomina]

Was there any point to this thread other than an attempted attack on Reformed Theology?
i dont think so...
:sigh:

[theseed]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works?

He does not elect on the basis of anything we are saved by grace. But I will say this, God has chosen the weak in this world to be strong in faith.

God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.

It is a mystery (Romans 9.1)

If election is a random process, then considering the world population, it is statistically improbable that anyone in the OPC (or the CRC or any numerically small Christian denomination) is "elect."

Why not? faith in Christ indicates election

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

Calvinist believe that it is not on the basis of rightous works including faith. I agree that it is not based on works. I believe that it is for God's glory and only he knows why he elects those he elects. It is to God's glory to take the weak of this world and make them strong in faith. We read this in 1 Corinthians 1, which also has verses regarding election. Nevertheless, we see people from all walks of life who have faith in Christ.

[Flynmonkie]

If God doesn't elect on the basis of foreknowledge of good works, being a good neighbor, "inviting Jesus . . . , then on what basis? Bad works?

He does not elect for these reasons alone! He elects when you make the choice to follow him. At that time you become the elect. As a christian you should walk in his light. However, he does know who will make the choice or not. God is everything he could force us BUT that is so much undervalued -He does not "force" you to do so. He loves you that much!

If God elects on some basis that is unknown to us or not understandable to us, then as far as we can know, God's election is a random process.

God has forewarned us that to investigate something that is clearly is for him to know, is sinning. Gods plans are none of our business. I think those whom are not saved are in this position because they want to be. Simple as that. There are some things left unknown to us, and we will NEVER understand. If we do not, we are not supposed to. Our business is our walk with him, our faith, prayer and study...he will lead us where he wants us.


If election is a random process, then considering the world population, it is statistically improbable that anyone in the OPC (or the CRC or any numerically small Christian denomination) is "elect."

What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?

The glory of his grace seems to be short changed by people that insist on the fact that he predestines some to salvation and some to eternal damnation......just plain nonsense. Seems to me that it is just man trying to conceptualize God - and demeaning his wonderful gift to us. But I do not think this is a specific denomination issue, many people hold dear to this understanding.

If this analysis is incorrect, then on what basis does God elect?

[BBAS 64]

Was there any point to this thread other than an attempted attack on Reformed Theology?
Good day, Knight

It seems that there was no other point in this thread. Maybe the OP was opened by Dave Hunt seeing his part the book "Debating Calvism" has failed Badly. :P
So to has the OP. IMHO


Peace to u,

BBAS

[Flynmonkie]

Good day, Knight

It seems that there was no other point in this thread. Maybe the OP was opened by Dave Hunt seeing his part the book "Debating Calvism" has failed Badly. :P
So to has the OP. IMHO


Peace to u,

BBAS
Hey, I read some of Dave Hunts stuff just recently, the seduction books......I had no idea he had a book about Calvinism?? But of course I just found out he is strictly in the Arm camp....not too thrilled about that! What is the OP???:confused:



What you OPCs (or whomever) going to say when you find yourselves in Hell?


I missed this in my earlier reply. I can assure you, even though I firmly believe salvation is offered to ALL men. Trying to assume Gods responsibility in judgment will cause you greater pain. We are clearly warned about this. Telling people they are headed to Hell is a form of judging salvation. That is Gods job, not ours.:(

[Wrigley]

What are you refering to with OPC and CPC?
I'm reading thru the thread and just in case this hasn't been answered, OPC=Orthodox Presbyterian Church. CRC=Christian Reformed Church

[Bulldog]

I'm reading thru the thread and just in case this hasn't been answered, OPC=Orthodox Presbyterian Church. CRC=Christian Reformed Church.

LOL, Wrigley, he actually said CPC, meaning Cumberland Presbyterian Church.

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Flymonkie

OP= Opening Post


Peace to u,

BBAS

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Flymonkie

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590522737/qid%3D1080131818/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-6309197-0023056

The BOOK!

Bill

[Flynmonkie]

Good Day, Flymonkie

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590522737/qid%3D1080131818/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-6309197-0023056

The BOOK!

Bill
Good Day, Bill! (not sure if you have ever heard of Paul Harvey..but he always says this in conclusion to his daily program....could not tell if you were running me off or saying Hello! :D )
Thanks so much for the info!!!

Nope had no idea...like I said, I just started reading some of his stuff. Glad to be aware of the opposing opinions!
Thanks again!

[billwald]

"5.) but wait a minute. God decided when he knew me before the foundation of the world that He was gonna save me."

I accept TULIP as logical and probable. Why do Reformed believers (of all people) assume that THEY are the elect?

The NT check list is 1 John. Anyone who meets 100% of John's check list can know that he is saved. I don't know anyone who does meet the mark.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

As a Calvanist, I don't have to worry about not being elect. I know I'm elect because I have faith that Jesus died for my sins, and that my putting my trust in him I am elect. Read Acts 13. Towards the end, Luke makes a very good statement on predestination that will help you to put a person's faith in God and predestination together better.

[Reformationist]

Why do Reformed believers (of all people) assume that THEY are the elect?

LOL! ROTFLOL! If I put any stock in ANYTHING you said I might be offended at this. "...of all people..." Man, that is too funny. :D :D :D

[billwald]

Who should know better than Reformed people that there is no human test for the state of being elected? That is the real reason why we should consied the Ten Commandments - because we are making our election sure - by working on the problem, not in thankfulness for our election. It is impolite to give thanks for a gift before one receives it.

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

We don't make our calling and election sure just by following God's guidelines, but by having heart that follows and love God. Legalism, or a doctrine of works is against the principle of reformed theology.

[theseed]

Who should know better than Reformed people that there is no human test for the state of being elected? That is the real reason why we should consied the Ten Commandments - because we are making our election sure - by working on the problem, not in thankfulness for our election. It is impolite to give thanks for a gift before one receives it.
No body seeks God, unless they are elected, period.

[Reformationist]

No body seeks God, unless they are elected, period.

Even further, no one seeks God unless they are regenerated unto life in Christ. :)

A true, genuine desire for salvation in Christ is, in fact, a mark of election.

God bless

[billwald]

>Even further, no one seeks God unless they are regenerated unto life in Christ.

Agreed!

>A true, genuine desire for salvation in Christ is, in fact, a mark of election.

Most likely.

Consider the set consisting of every human. It contains two subsets, one, the elect (E) and two, everyone else (U).

1.Does the E set contain everyone who seeks God?

I agree that it does if "everyone" contains some Mormons, Jews, and Moslems.

2. Does the E set contain everyone who has a true desire for salvation in Christ?

3. Is the "true desire . . Christ" set a subset of the "Everyone who seeks God" set?

4. How does a person know if he has a true or a false desire for salvation in Christ?

[Reformationist]

Consider the set consisting of every human. It contains two subsets, one, the elect (E) and two, everyone else (U).

Okay.

1.Does the E set contain everyone who seeks God?

Yes. However, just to qualify that, "everyone who seeks God" are those who have been regenerated. Natural man does not seek God (Rom 3:11).

I agree that it does if "everyone" contains some Mormons, Jews, and Moslems.

I have no clue who the elect are, nor does anyone else. That's why we are commissioned to share the Gospel with ALL people.

2. Does the E set contain everyone who has a true desire for salvation in Christ?

Inclusion in the "E set" and subsequent regeneration is what creates in man a true desire for salvation in Christ out of love for Him. All others, ostensibly, those in the "U set," never desire to serve Christ out of love. Rather, they seek that which we Christians know only Christ provides so we make the assumption that they are seek Christ. Unfortunately, in the case of those in the "U set," they never seek the Benefactor but only the benefits.

3. Is the "true desire . . Christ" set a subset of the "Everyone who seeks God" set?

No. Everyone who seeks God out of a true love to serve the Lord in obedience comprise the "E set." However, no one aside from God can know the reason someone seeks Him so this is not very helpful to us in determining who God's chosen are.

4. How does a person know if he has a true or a false desire for salvation in Christ?

Well, according to the Word of God those who "go out from" the children of God do so to show that they never were a child of God (1 John 2:19). "Go out from" does not indicative of the seasons of sin that many true Christians endure. The point is that they "endure." "Go out from" means "to forsake." Those who forsake the Lord show they were never a child of God.

So, the answer to question #4 is simply, our true desire for salvation will never leave us. A false desire for salvation will manifest itself by the simple fact of apostacy.

God bless

[Reformationist]

*duplicate post*

[Flynmonkie]

I have no clue who the elect are, nor does anyone else. That's why we are commissioned to share the Gospel with ALL people.
So IT IS safe to say that it is possible that EVERYONE has the potential to be elect. That all have this oppourtunity but not all will be saved. Only God Himself knows who will not be open to salvation. Basicially this area is none of our business, but Gods alone.........because I am getting a different perspective from earlier posts on this regarding the Calvinsitic position.

[Reformationist]

So IT IS safe to say that it is possible that EVERYONE has the potential to be elect.

No. No one has the potential to be elect. You either are or you are not. Potential makes room for the possibility of change. God's election is immutable. If someone has not been elected unto salvation they will neither be saved nor will they desire to serve God out of a heart that loves Him and His Law.

That all have this oppourtunity but not all will be saved.

I can tell that the whole concept of God not giving some people the salvitic grace that He gives to the elect doesn't sit well with you. For that reason, and my desire to avoid offending you, I'll try to be gentle about this. We are NOT saved because we avail ourselves of the "opportunity." We are saved completely, solely, monergistically by the vicarious atonement of Christ and the imputation of His righteousness. Our salvation is the product of Another's work. We had absolutely no part in it whatsoever because it wasn't a decision we were part of.

Only God Himself knows who will not be open to salvation.

Again, God does not just know who will be open to salvation. He opens us to salvation, and then indwells us with His Spirit as a sign of His promise of our inclusion in His family, as His child. He made us accepted. He made us children of God. He did NOT do this because we were sensitive to the call or smart enough to avail ourselves of such an opportunity. Those who are "open to salvation" are those whose heart of stone God has removed and replaced with a heart of flesh. This is NOT a random set of people.

God bless

[theseed]

One comment about the salvation, anybody has the oportunity to come to Christ, but nobody is able to come, unless God gives life to thier dead spirit (regeneration by Spiritual baptism). Election does not relieve anyone of the responsiblity to have faith in Christ, but actually enables those elected people to fullfill the requirement of faith in Christ. Not even Adam and Eve sought God after they died, even though they had known God. They hid becasue they did not want their deeds exposed (john 3.18-21).

[Flynmonkie]

I can tell that the whole concept of God not giving some people the salvitic grace that He gives to the elect doesn't sit well with you. For that reason, and my desire to avoid offending you, I'll try to be gentle about this. We are NOT saved because we avail ourselves of the "opportunity." We are saved completely, solely, monergistically by the vicarious atonement of Christ and the imputation of His righteousness. Our salvation is the product of Another's work. We had absolutely no part in it whatsoever because it wasn't a decision we were part of.



You know that you do not offend me on this.:) We have had this discussion; I am really trying hard to understand your point of view. There are many things that I agree with you on but this point still remains a difference. Mostly because I have not read or studied many things outside of the bible. And the terminology sometimes leaves much to be desired for me. As I have said before, everything you say is valid to a degree, but I still do not see the balance in your approach. And I have serious doubts how either way of thinking will affect salvation. But as I have said before that is between the person and God, That is not for me to know.

However, I am very concerned about the image this puts out to others while sharing the Gospel. God, whom we all are very aware, is everything. He has control and power over anything and everything. Absolutely agreed.

But "election" as it is explained in the Calvinistic view, is most definitely understood by many -that Calvinists think they are the only "elect". Not to mention that God created us as puppets...for some nonsense reason, because he knows how everything will happen, who will be saved and whom won't so that makes them predestined to salvation or not. I worry about those poor souls out there that are greeted with this mixed up version of our God that say "Hey?? I guess I must be already dammed to hell since I was born, because I do not feel he loves me. So I must not be one of the elect. Not to mention everything I have been told about this whosoever and God loves all is false" When they have no true idea that we are all dammed to hell as sinners when we are born, until when called, by whatever means, that we hear his plans....we accept Christ and the Holy Spirit does its work on us finding Gods will and direction for our lives. I would have serious fear of God himself for instilling this thought in this manner into others heads effectively creating a stumbling block in their spiritual walk.. He is quite clear in the Bible, for God so loved the world -whosoever believes in him. It is God's very nature to love. The fact that God will send to eternal hell all sinners who persist in sin and unbelief proves His hatred toward them. On the other hand, the fact that God promises to forgive and bring into His eternal glory all who trust Christ as Savior-and even pleads with sinners to repent-proves His love toward them. That Love is offered to all of man. It is our choice to make or not. Just as we have free will in our walk with him as one of the "elect", to change our ways or not. We are all sinners and come short....that is when the Holy Spirit comes into play and we are regenerated. But we still make mistakes. Why, because we are still sinners, and we are not puppets, we have the choice to make good decisions all the time, we are incapable of this. Even with God, filled with the holy spirit. We will never be at that point....as the Glory of God, but we are to shoot for the closest we can be to Christlike that we are capable. That is one of the beautiful, marvelous aspects of His plan of salvation for us…. we are allowed to make that choice. He does not force us. Mans responsibility totally aligns with Gods unsurpassed power and control ~Scriptural and spiritually for me.

Here is a bit from a website…this is by John MacArthur (http://www.gty.org/). As that he is much better at explaining my position than I am I think. Take a stroll through it...and tell me what you think. I have highlighted those points that I think is where I disagree with what has been explained to me regarding the calvinistic POV of Election.



Love of God to the World: The Origin of the Plan of Salvation

THERE IS ANOTHER IDEA to which I wish for a little to turn your attention on this part of the subject. The love in which the economy of salvation originates, is love to the world. God so loved the world as to give His only begotten Son. The term "world" is here just equivalent to mankind. It seems to be used by our Lord with a reference to the very limited and exclusive views of the Jews. They thought God loved them, and hated all the other nations of mankind. These were their own feelings, and they foolishly thought that God was altogether such an one as themselves. They accordingly expected that the Messiah was to come to deliver Israel, and to punish and destroy the other nations of the earth. But God's ways were not their ways, nor His thoughts their thoughts. As the heavens are high above the earth, so were His ways above their ways, and His thoughts above their thoughts (Isa. 55:8-9).

Some have supposed that the word "world" here is descriptive not of mankind generally, but of the whole of a particular class, that portion of mankind who, according to the Divine purpose of mercy, shall ultimately become partakers of the salvation of Christ. But this is to give to the term a meaning altogether unwarranted by the usage of Scripture. There can be no doubt in the mind of a person who understands the doctrine of personal election, that those who are actually saved are the objects of a special love on the part of God; and that the oblation of the Savior had a special design in reference to them. But there can be as little doubt, that the atonement of Christ has a general reference to mankind at large; and that it was intended as a display of love on the part of God to our guilty race. Not merely was the atonement offered by Christ Jesus sufficient for the salvation of the whole world, but it was intended and fitted to remove out of the way of the salvation of sinners generally every bar which the perfections of the Divine moral character and the principles of the Divine moral government presented. Without that atonement, no sinner could have been pardoned in consistency with justice. In consequence of that atonement, every sinner may be, and if he believe in Jesus certainly shall be, pardoned and saved. Through the medium of this atonement, the Divine Being is revealed to sinners, indiscriminately, as gracious and ready to forgive; and the invitations and promises warranting men to confide in Christ for salvation, are addressed to all, and are true and applicable to all without exception or restriction.

The revelation of mercy made in the gospel refers to men as sinners, not as elect sinners. Their election or their non-election is something of which, when called on to believe the gospel, they are necessarily entirely ignorant, and with which they have nothing to do. "The kindness and love of God … toward man," the Divine philanthropy, is revealed (***. 3:4). "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (2 Cor. 5:19). He appears in the revelation of mercy as the God who has no pleasure in the death of the wicked; who willeth all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (Ezek. 33:11; 1 Tim. 2:3-4). "The grace of God" revealed in the gospel "brings salvation to all," without exception, who in the faith of the truth will receive it (***. 2:11).

I am persuaded that the doctrine of personal election is very plainly taught in Scripture; but I am equally persuaded that the minister misunderstands that doctrine who finds it, in the least degree, hampering him in presenting a full and a free salvation as the gift of God to every one who hears the gospel; and that the man abuses the doctrine who finds in it anything which operates as a barrier in the way of his receiving, as a sinner, all the blessings of the Christian salvation, in the belief of the truth. Indeed, when rightly understood, it can have no such effect. For what is that doctrine, but just this, in other words-It is absolutely certain that a vast multitude of the race of man shall be saved through Christ? And it is as certain, that if any one of those to whom that salvation is offered, remains destitute of it, and perishes eternally, it is entirely owing to his own obstinate refusal of what is freely, honestly, presented to him. The kindness of God, as manifested in the gift of His Son, is kindness to the race of man; and when, as an individual, I credit the kindness of God to man, so strangely displayed, so abundantly proved, I cannot find any reason why I should not depend on this kindness, and expect to be saved even as others.

Whenever a man hesitates about placing his dependence on the mercy of God, because he is not sure whether he be elected or not, he gives clear evidence that he does not yet understand the gospel. He does not apprehend the manifestation of the love of God to man. When he sees God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, he does not need to ask, "Is the plan of mercy such as I am warranted to embrace? may I not somehow be excluded from availing myself of it?" These, and similar suggestions, which draw away his mind from the voice of God to the speculations of his own mind, are no more regarded. He sees God rich in mercy, ready to forgive; just, and the justifier of the ungodly. He cannot but place his confidence in Him. "Jehovah," as it has been happily said, by the manifestation of what he has done, especially in sending Christ, and delivering Him up, the just in the room of the unjust, pleads His own cause with such subduing pathos that there is no more power of resistance: but the person who is the object of the demonstration yields himself up to the authority and glory of the truth. The sinner, thus cordially believing the Gospel, gladly and gratefully receives "the Savior of the world" as his Savior, and trusts that by the grace of God he shall partake of "the common salvation."


What does the Bible teach about election?

Election is the act of God whereby in eternity past He chose those who will be saved. Election is unconditional, because it does not depend on anything outside of God, such as good works or foreseen faith (Romans 9:16). This doctrine is repeatedly taught in the Bible, and is also demanded by our knowledge of God. To begin with, let's look at the biblical evidence.

The Bible says prior to salvation, all people are dead in sin-- spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-3). In this state of death, the sinner is utterly unable to respond to any spiritual stimulus and therefore unable to love God, obey Him, or please Him in any way. Scripture says the mind of every unbeliever "is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8, emphasis added). That describes a state of total hopelessness: spiritual death.

The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work. In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Acts 16 tells us that Lydia was saved when, " . . . the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."

Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . . also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 2:8 suggests that even our faith is a gift from God.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."

Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.

But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word "know," in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world.
If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).

In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.

http://www.gty.org/IssuesandAnswers/archive/election.htm

[Reformationist]

You know that you do not offend me on this.:)

Well, that's good. This is a touchy subject for most people. I'm glad that you're not offended. If I do happen to offend you please let me know so I may apologize and reword my opinion.

And I have serious doubts how either way of thinking will affect salvation. But as I have said before that is between the person and God, That is not for me to know.

It won't affect our salvation. It will, however, affect how we view God and the way in which we worship Him. If we see Him as primarily, but not solely, responsible for our salvation we are still apt to credit ourselves with, AT THE LEAST, making the right choice. This WILL affect the way we worship God. This WILL affect our humility. This WILL affect our ability to see the magnitude of God's mercy on us.

But "election" as it is explained in the Calvinistic view, is most definitely understood by many -that Calvinists think they are the only "elect". Not to mention that God created us as puppets...for some nonsense reason, because he knows how everything will happen, who will be saved and whom won't so that makes them predestined to salvation or not.

No studied Calvinist I have ever met believes that only Calvinists are God's elect or believes that we are puppets.

God bless,
Don

[Flynmonkie]

Well, that's good. This is a touchy subject for most people. I'm glad that you're not offended. If I do happen to offend you please let me know so I may apologize and reword my opinion.Naw don't worry about me, I will let you know. I do not think that you intend any harm with anything I have ever seen you try to express. However, you are very strong in your faith, this is not a bad thing! I am humble enough to know I have a lot to learn, I encourage other views, so I can either embrace because it is correct, or debunk them! Now you start saying God is in error or that type of perspective....that brings on a whole new side of me, not too many like to see....but that is another thread.


It won't affect our salvation. It will, however, affect how we view God and the way in which we worship Him. If we see Him as primarily, but not solely, responsible for our salvation we are still apt to credit ourselves with, AT THE LEAST, making the right choice. This WILL affect the way we worship God. This WILL affect our humility. This WILL affect our ability to see the magnitude of God's mercy on us.

I agree it will affect how we view God. Fear -attributing it all to him is so very important, as we are saved truly we realize, that is the only way....his regeneration of us. But when he calls, there is that chance that we do not listen...this is where choice comes into play. If we listen, we become elect...This can be said from both perspectives.....I think they merge somewhere....a healthy balance...rather than one way. It is obvious that he is greater than anything....but we all have that ability to be elect. We do not know his reason for choosing some over others however, he will not forsake those whom seek him. Again offering us that choice.This is so very important to make others aware. My biggest problem with Calvins teaching...just not enough balance in this area. I am very sure that he will not send some to hell even if they (earnestly and truly) believe in him. Goes against everything he claims. Calvin, I agree with many points, but just as other teachers and scholars I have read..no one is perfect.

No studied Calvinist I have ever met believes that only Calvinists are God's elect or believes that we are puppets.
Nope I do not believe in Blanket statements in this area for sure! I have not met a Calvinist that truly thinks this way. I don't really think so either, but when this point is emphasized to the extent it is without a balance....there is room for misrepresentation. Just as was mentioned earlier in this thread.