El HaGalatim (Galations)

[JewishHeart]

Part 1 - By JewishHeart ( Sean Steckbeck) - copywrite

I was reading some key scriptures in the book of Galations today that reminded me of my points here on this board. I know that the book of Galations is a book that replacement theologians and anti-messianics misuse alot to the distress of many messianics, if you are of that type I would suggest you read Dan Juster's "Jewish Roots" which explains these complications very well.

On the other hand, we must read Galations with some inward criticism and testing to the purpose of the book as messianics. As messianics we should search for truth (even above balance), but many times truth is stained by swinging the pendulum the other way. We get one glimpse of truth about how replacement theologians misuse Galations and we run with it without testing the scriptures fully with a pure conscious. Personally, hermaneutically I am a literalist when it comes to the letters of Paul. I check background sources, history, audience, etc.; but in all I want to get to the meaning and the spirit of the letter; even if it messes with my theology or personal knick knacks. Last of all, hermaneutically I also allow the Holy Spirit to work in my life and reveal Himself to me. The Spirit of God always points towards Yeshua, so let us dive into a study of the "heart" of Galations.

First of all the audience is mostly Gentiles, but he makes general theological statements to those in Messiah assuming Jews and Gentiles (one has to read the text and decide according to the generality of the verse whether it is for the Gentile church or for the body of Messiah at large).

Paul starts Romans after the greetings with this topic, "Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel..."

So the first topic of Romans (maybe the theme, but we need to dive in deeper to see) is "another gospel", let us go on to see what this "other gospel" is.

Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

So we see that it is 1.) another gospel 2.) a perversion

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So we see it is 1.) another gospel 2.) a perversion 3.) it brings a curse on those who teach it

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
4.) It wasn't received from men ( so Paul didn't get it from Halacha)

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
5.) Paul's gospel was given by revelation of the Holy Spirit ( so nobody can say he got his teachings from Halacha according to Paul)

Paul then goes into a dissertation about once being a zealous Jew and persecuting those in the faith and how he did not get see the apostles when the Son was revealed to Him.

Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 6.) Here Paul associates bondage with those trying to circumcise a Gentile ( I think we all agree here on this point that we don't have to be circumcised as a Gentile believer in the Messiah).

7.) Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
This false gospel isn't even worth an hour of debate !

Paul then makes clear that Peter is called to the Jews and he to the Gentiles (although a study of the book of Acts shows that Paul always went to the Jew first, but his primary ministry was to the gentiles). We must take this in mind while studying Galations.

Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Here we see an example of Paul rebuking Peter harshly and Paul, by the Holy Spirit, decided to put this case in letter ( which is no small thing seeing it caused somewhat a rift between them). The Holy Spirit seemed fit to include this story in the Brit HaChadasha for a reason. Paul didn't have to write about it ( he could have chosen to cover Peter like Noah's sons covered him), but he did write about it. Considering the dyanamic between the morality of covering Peter and the morality of letting truth be engrained, we know which one Paul and the Holy Spirit choose.

We have several reasons Paul rebuked Peter for in this story, it could have been one, a few , or all of these reasons.

1.) Peter acted like a hypocrite putting something on the Gentiles that he couldn't keep according to verse 14.

2.) Peter put the Jewish calling on the Gentiles which is not needed in Messiah.

3.) Halacha prevents table fellowship with the Goyim, it could be that Peter was scared of what the Jewish believers who kept oral Torah would think, and Paul disagreed with Oral Torah ( I also believe this is what Paul meant in the verse breaking the barrier or fence that seperates the Jew and Gentile making them one new man by abolishing the <oral> law and its commandments - in otherwords abolishing halacha that prevented Jew/Gentile table fellowship).

4.) Peter acted out of fear and not out love.

I personally believe it is 1-4, but this will wet your exegetical appetites- exegete this and decide for yourselves.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Messiah Yeshua, even we have believed in Messiah Yeshua, that we might be justified by the faith of Messiah, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ( I changed Christ Jesus to Messiah Yeshua for both you and I to feel more comfortable)

We see here that nobody is justified or righteous by keeping the Torah (works of the law), but by faith in Messiah Yeshua....

These verses don't explain the purpose of Torah, but just explains what is not the purpose of Torah. So this does not exclude a messianic Jew from keeping Torah, just as believing it is his/her salvation/justication/righteousness. ( I think we all agree on this point).

These verses do not say this, but according to the weight of these verses about the purpose Messiah Yeshua and the Torah, just think about this for a second: Is the purpose of Messiah Yeshua to point us to Torah, or is the purpose of Torah to point us to Messiah.

I put "no flesh" in bold to show Hix that according to the NT there is no such thing as dual-covenant theology.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified in Messiah, we also were found to be sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Let it not be said!
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I confirm myself as a transgressor.

Paul basically says here that Messiah does not want us to break Torah, but keeping in mind saying that Torah doesn't justify us. Paul also understood the purpose of Torah (which many here do to some degree) about the calling of Jews and Gentiles according to Torah.

Gal 2:19 For through the Law I died to the law, that I might live to God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Messiah, and I live; yet no longer I, but Messiah lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf.
Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness is through law, then Messiah died without cause.

So in order to live to God, you must die to the desire to keep the law for salvation through understanding the purpose of the law ( my exegesis, because here it is less specific and can be open to many interpretations).

Then Paul basically sums up this chapter by saying that he has died to Himself ( I am guessing because of the context that he is dying to his desire to be justified by the law and trying to become righteous himself, which is basically killing his pride) and His vision is Messiah Yeshua.

Paul makes a statement saying the life he lives in the flesh he lives in faith toward the Son of God.

THIS IS SAYING THAT PAUL'S LIFE GOAL IS NO LONGER KEEPING TORAH, BUT FAITH IN MESSIAH.

For me practically, I see it as I am priviledged to keep Torah; as long as my life goal is not keeping Torah, but faith in Messiah Yeshua.

[JewishHeart]

Part 2

Taking off from where we were before we see that letter seems to be stressing.

1.) another gospel 2.) a perversion 3.) it brings a curse on those who teach it
and now 4.) witchcraft

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you not to obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Messiah Yeshua was written among you crucified?

Gal 3:2 This only I would learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, do you now perfect yourself in the flesh?

I put the word "perfect" in bold print here because in the Greek it means "to fulfill completely." In other words people were saying the Spirit of God and faith leads to salvation and keeping Torah is the cherry on top that perfects the salvation. But salvation isnt the Spirit of God AND the law, its just the Spirit of God.

Here is another interesting tidbit, according to this verse does Paul lead towards relying upon the arm of the flesh (Halacha) or the Spirit of God (reading the scriptures with conviction of the Holy Spirit). It isn't the main subject of this scripture, but conclusions can be drawn according to the spirit in which Paul wrote this scripture.

Gal 3:5 Then He supplying the Spirit to you and working powerful works in you, is it by works of the law, or by hearing of faith?

Here we can theologically conclude that keeping the Torah (for those who understand its purpose) doesn't cause the Spirit of God to fall in our midst, but rather faith.


Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Therefore know that those of faith, these are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations through faith, preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all nations be blessed."
Gal 3:9 So then those of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Here we see the promises and blessings of Abraham come through faith and not by keeping Torah ( I'm sure we all agree here). Ultimately, this is Messiah Yeshua. So this also shows you the difference in the covenant of Moshe with the Jewish people and its purpose and the covenant of Abraham with the Jewish people and the rest of the world and its purpose. This of course excludes and includes the promise of the land of Israel, because ultimately in the heavenly kingdom on earth we will all reign (Jew and Gentile) in Israel proper and the New Jerusalem. In the earthly kingdom, the land of Israel belongs to those Jewish of blood ( this is another teaching that I may get into later).

Gal 3:10 For as many as are out of works of the Law, these are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them."

Most everybody agrees that this is talking about those who still trust in the Torah for their salvation is under a curse because they can't fulfill all 613 requirements ( according to their purposes).

Gal 3:11 But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is clear, for, "The just shall live by faith."

Ok, OK Paul we get your point, it is "clear" as you put it here... we are justified through faith in Messiah and not through Torah.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Again the blessings of Abraham come through faith to the Gentiles too.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Basically Paul explains his theology on how the Gentiles fit into the promises of Abraham.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise

OUr inheritance is not the law, but the promise of Messiah Yeshua.



Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Basically, Paul explains here that the law was a temporary measure of trying to be holy, until the Messiah comes to justify all. I personally, as a messianic, believe that he was referring to the laws purpose towards righteousness and not towards the calling of the Jewish people, which keeps with the spirit of Galations about the law being kept for righteousness.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

The Torah does not speak against the promise of Abraham (Messiah Yeshua), or the promise of Abraham speak against Torah. Its just the promise of Abraham always took precedence in respect to salvation over Torah, otherwise Torah could have brought salvation and we wouldn't need Abraham's promised Messiah.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith

Before the promised Messiah came, we were justified by the law; because the law taught (was the schoolmaster) about Messiah Yeshua that we may be justified by believing in Him through what the Torah taught about Him. This was up until Messiah actually came ("Which should afterwords be revealed").

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah.

Those who have come into the kingdom of Messiah Yeshua, took on the identity of Messiah Yeshua (you can keep the Torah, but your main identity is Messiah).

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In Messiah Yeshua's kingdom we are all one no matter what our calling is ( whether it be a Jewish believers calling to keep Torah, or a Gentile believers calling to evangelize, or a male's calling to lead his household, or females to submit to her husband, or slaves calling to submit towards his master, etc.) . We are all heirs of the promise of Abraham (namely Messiah Yeshua) no matter of what background we are.

[JewishHeart]

Part 3

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Messiah

Paul is explaining here that as the Son of an inheritance we do not receive the inheritance, but are about to get it after we grow up. IN the meantime, we learn and live under the principles as a child which Paul relates to a servant. Whenever we are grow up we become sons and no longer servants and are receivers of the inheritance, which Paul relates to the coming of Messiah.

Principle: Law without Messiah is servanthood Law with Messiah Is Sonship.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Here Paul explains the theme of Galations to #5 on our list : weak and beggarly.

.) another gospel 2.) a perversion 3.) it brings a curse on those who teach it
4.) witchcraft 5.) weak and beggarly 6.) bondage

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

The word for "observe" in the Greek means to be scrupulous and very picky
( paratayreho G3906 Strongs). Basically Paul is not condemning them for celebrating the feasts, but for being legalistic and picky about how you do them (he was probably referring to halachic arguments). This comes to show that the Spirit of the feasts of the Lord should be celebratory and remembering Messiah and YHVH, and NOT to just obey the Lord through building fences. This reminds me of how the L-rd was pleased with Hezekiah for celebrating the L-rd's feast at the wrong time. His Spirit was right!

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Paul wants them and cries out for them to be revolved around Messiah more than they are revolved around Torah, which is my point with this chatboard.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Paul basically explains here than the sons of the promise (those who concentrate on Messiah Yeshua mainly) are free and those who are the sons of the law ( those who concentrate on the Torah more than Messiah Yeshua) are the sons of bondage ( Hagar). He goes into the difference between flesh and Spirit.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

We need to stand fast in this point !!!!

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gentiles were getting circumcized by the Judaizers to complete their salvation, Paul said they might as well go all the way and fall from grace.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

In the promise and covenant of Messiah Yeshua the covenant of circumcision with the Jewish people ( which serves a different purpose) doesnt avail to anything ( doesn't bring forth any good deeds before the eyes of Yeshua).

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

This doctrine is number 7 on our list : the unpure leaven during Passover
.) another gospel 2.) a perversion 3.) it brings a curse on those who teach it
4.) witchcraft 5.) weak and beggarly 6.) bondage 7.) Unpure leaven during Passover that can ruin the whole batch

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

We need to stand on the offense of the cross, no matter what persecution it may cause while we are called to our own people ( the Jewish people).

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

The Great commandment to love and serve one another rather than the law.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

Listen to the Spirit of God always, and He will help you not sin ( it doesn't come by following Torah, but by walking in the Spirit).

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

When we have the Spirit of God we don't want to sin, therefore worrying about keeping the law isn't as effective as concentrating on living in the Spirit of God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

These things listed is what Paul is talking about when he is talking about living by the Spirit ( for those who would say those who don't keep all 613 laws aren't living by the Spirit because they are gratifying their flesh by not keeping Torah...Paul made a list to tell you what he is talking about).

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

These are the weightier things of the Spirit of God ( and the whole counsel of the scriptures) the fruits of the Spirit against the desires of the flesh ( listed also in this chapter).

[ShirChadash]

Paul wants them and cries out for them to be revolved around Messiah more than they are revolved around Torah, which is my point with this chatboard.

Just curious -- you seem to automatically assume that ^ this is not already the case with many people here. Why is that, Brother?

[JewishHeart]

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Messiah.

Again this lifts up the law of love, and it says ( for those who don't agree with me that Yeshua is like Moshe in that he brought a new Torah) fulfilling the Torah of Messiah.It even uses the same Greek word here (nomos) that it uses for Moshe's Torah. I don't believe it cancels Moshe's Torah ( which still has a specific purpose), but do believe Messiah brought a newer Torah.

Paul continues to encourage the Galatia congregation about keeping up the good work.

Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Paul basically says here Jews that want Gentiles to keep the law of Moshe in order for righteousness sake are breaking the Torah themselves and are prideful.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Messiah Yeshua, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Messiah Yeshua neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Basically, as messianics our glory should be in Messiah Yeshua more than the Torah.



IN conclusion:

Torah is our calling as Jewish believers, but it is NOT our goal !!!!

JewishHeart- Sean Steckbeck

www.simeonscry.org

[Hix]

He fails to grasp the concept of Messiah actually BEING the Torah and teaching it. Too much christian theology mixed in there methinks.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[JewishHeart]

Pray4Israel,


I appreciate your encouraging words. May the L-rd bless you as you obey His will. Thank you for being led by the Holy Spirit in all wisdom. May the G-d of the Torah reveal the Torah made flesh to you- Yeshua HaMashiach- more each day!!! May you win many souls and take nations for the Messiah!

For the Sake of Messiah,

Sean

[JewishHeart]

Hix,

May I add that Yeshua the Messiah is the Torah made Flesh and is the whole purpose surrounding the Torah. I love the Torah because I love Yeshua. I want to understand the Torah because I want to understand Yeshua. Messiah is all in all.

[JewishHeart]

Hix,

Its also funny you say it sounds too christian.

Most christians would read this and say it sounds to messianic.

Especially my defense of the feasts which most christians read into it as saying that we shouldn't celebtrate the feasts, but I read into the spirit of the verse which says that we shouldn't argue about how to do them (which is a sense of salvation and pride) but rather celebrate them in Messiah.

But if you do find it too christian, I think that christians aren't totally ignorant of truth (actually most have relationships with G-d through Messiah) so... hey, I don't mind.

I'm a messianic, but don't mind learning from my christian brothers and sisters as long as its built on truth, humility, and the Spirit of God.

[ShirChadash]

I'm a messianic, but don't mind learning from my christian brothers and sisters as long as its built on truth, humility, and the Spirit of God.interestingly, I think many Messianics can also say the same about their Jewish brethren...

[JewishHeart]

Zemirah,

Actually I am one that doesn't believe in Halacha as divine or as authorative; but do admit some commentaries by some rabis seem to have the anointing of the Holy Spirit on them. Some of Rabi Nachman is one of them. Some of Hilel's stuff is another.Of more recent date I like Rabi Cook. More often than not, Messiah does make the difference in the anointing on a teaching. Messiah is all in all.


I would also like to encourage anyone to test my material as I am also not authorative, but do believe the Spirit of God gave me much of what I said.

[WildCelt]

Toda, achi, for your insights!

[INOrder]

Hello Jewish heart,

I am Jewish,
and this does very much sound christian.
No offence in anyway and I hope that none was taken in on your side.

But, everything said here sounds christian save for the small portions where Torah is acknowledged yet an equal blow is given against the Torah in your commentary.
If this is how the gospels are supposed to be interpreted then I must say in honesty that this is something that a learned Jew will not take part of nor in any way be associated with.
And I say this good hearts to you this is in no way intended to insult you or prick you.

bye

[JewishHeart]

InOrder,

As a messianic the last thing I want to do is assault Torah, I just want to state the supremacy of Messiah over Torah in our devotion. I love Torah, keep the feasts, keep kosher, keep Shabbatt, but would trade it all for one day with the Messiah.

My point was not to assault Torah, but to establish the purpose of Torah over the practice of Torah. I am not against practicing Torah. In otherwords, I want to establish priority.

[P_G]

THIS IS SAYING THAT PAUL'S LIFE GOAL IS NO LONGER KEEPING TORAH, BUT FAITH IN MESSIAH.

For me practically, I see it as I am priviledged to keep Torah; as long as my life goal is not keeping Torah, but faith in Messiah Yeshua.
Yes Yes Yes
Oimien!

Though the law was not given to the gentile we who are grafted in have the wonderful privlage and right to keep it! It does not make us more justified (saved) but certainly honors G-d and surely blesses us!.



Good stuff Sean!
You get an A in hermanutics this semester!

Love

PG :wave:

[INOrder]

Hello Jewish heart,

You practice a form of Judaism correct? This is what I assume by some of your words and by others it is negated.
There are many statement in your articles that are foreign to Judaism.
I know that you may disagree, but this is the Judaism as I know it- it is the traditional Judaism.

I am positive that the great rise of messianic judaism began with the sole conversion of former Jewish person Alfred Edersheim.
In his writings he explains many things pertinent in Judaism and quotes many of our Torah-Masters, I believe that this has encouraged many christians to look harder into our writings and pull out all that they can without proper training and understanding to interpret them and apply them.
This is beside the point because this is only my belief founded om my personal view of the facts.

In judaism there is no supremacy of Messiah over the Torah.
but it is in fact the other way around.
I believe it was Hix who had mentioned that "messiah is the Torah" idea.
Though I understand this logic, this is not literal. To which of the writings does this belong too? I believe it is a M*drash or Rehmets, Not sure yet.
So Mashiach, who ever he may be, is not literally the Torah.
Yet it is something that every Rabbi must contain and attain.
The Rabbi is the embodiment of the written Torah and the Oral Torah. So the Rabbi in a different degree of literature is also the Torah, because in his very body, heart [mind] is the Torah and he should speak Torah.

[ShirChadash]

Zemirah,

Actually I am one that doesn't believe in Halacha as divine or as authorative


interesting. I'm not sure where I stand on Halacha at all, and I'm not worried about it, but at any rate I thought we were talking about written Torah. I can't say I think that Rabbinic halacha is divine in and of itself, though inspired, maybe/maybe not... and it isn't really authoritative in my life at this point; my Dh and I weigh from it on some things we study and choose to either accept and adopt or to set aside for now. Rabbinic halacha being authoritative isn't much of an issue with me at this point anyway. The Spirit is sufficient.


; but do admit some commentaries by some rabis seem to have the anointing of the Holy Spirit on them. I suppose I would agree with that.

may I have an answer to my question:


Paul wants them and cries out for them to be revolved around Messiah more than they are revolved around Torah, which is my point with this chatboard.
Just curious -- you seem to automatically assume that ^ this is not already the case with many people here. Why is that, Brother?

Thanks.

[ShirChadash]

I will say, it seems on the one hand you acknowledge that Yeshua the Living Torah is the same Torah as the written Torah. Then on the other hand you proceed to tell us how they are not the same, and you at the very least insinuate that to follow written Torah is somehow at odds with following the Living Torah, Yeshua.

Living Torah:Written Torah

neither negates the other, but the whole of faith rests in following both.

from a previous discussion, my thoughts:

Deuteronomy 30:15-19: "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the L-rd your G-d, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the L-rd your G-d will bless you in the land which you go to possess. If, though, your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

I believe this ^ is the scripture to which Yeshua was referring when He said that He has come that we may have life and have it to the fullest.

(Joh 10:10 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=joh+10:10&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.)

All throughout the TaNaKh, it seems clear that the way of life is the way of walking according to the mitzvot. And Yeshua came to correctly interpret the law and to give us the Ruach, His Spirit, that we would be enabled to live life = follow Torah.


Joh 5:24 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=joh+5:24&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Mt 7:14 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+7:14&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Mt 19:17 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=mt+19:17&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Joh 3:36 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=joh+3:36&version=nkj&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Our life is IN Yeshua, our salvation; the way we live out that life and "work out our salvation" INTO our daily life, is by following Torah (or, to the best of our ability, we try... we learn, we embrace more and pray about what/how to implement Torah into our personal lives. And of course, we fail, and stumble and fall... and our Yeshua covers our failure... but He never leaves us sitting in the dust or tells us, "no, that's all right, don't worry about walking acording to My Ways... it's too hard... I did it so you don't have to." No sir. We are in fact exhorted to RUN the race of life! Yeshua, His Spirit our Comforter, picks us back up and sets us back upon the path, and we must contrinue to walk and even run the way of life -- the way of Torah. We are told to be holy, to be perfect. Yeshua is salvation, "Justification". And Torah is the process by which we are sanctification, made holy, we "work out our salvation" into our lives through following Torah. Yeshua and His Torah are inseparable.


just my thoughts... rambleramble...

[Hix]

JewishHeart:

You are saying the Torah falls by the wayside when it comes to Yeshua, why then did he do as all the other prophets before him and actually teach the people to live it? Over 30 times in the Tanach does HaShem call the Torah eternal and for it to be followed eternally for salvation. Yeshua was the reknewal of the Torah and the eternal covenant in that he wrote it in their hearts to perform it. He did not seek to be worshipped or prayed to, or even to change the system of praying and worshipping in one HaShem alone at the time. If he had done that, according to Dueteronomy he would have been false. But instead he came to "heal the sick" in HaShem, ie teach those under the marriage covenant from Sinai the Torah and make it so the gentiles can find a path to HaShem also.

The Torah is ETERNAL.

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee, for ever.

Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Ezekiel 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord G-D; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in My statutes, and keep Mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be My people, and I will be their G-d.

Ezekiel 37:24 And David (messiah) my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Proverbs 7:2 Keep My commandments, and live; and My law as the apple of thine eye.

etc etc etc
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[ShirChadash]

:sorry:

PS, I don't by any means mean to be jumping on JH whatsoever. I'm actually enjoying the discussion and feel very friendly, myself... so JH, I hope you don't feel jumped on by me and if you do please accept my apologies for that and know I certainly don't intend to and just let me know if you feel I have done so! I appreciate your posting and want to discuss -- sometimes I feel I don't quite get why you seem so certain that the other posters here are so unbalanced... I think most are, really,and I just want to flesh that out with ya and get a better understanding of where you are coming from.

[JewishHeart]

I agree with you that the Torah is eternal.. I preach that in christian churches. My question is: how does Messiah's supremacy over the still eternal Torah negate that?

[Hix]

Messiah has no surpremacy over the eternal Torah. They are the same. The eternal Torah contains a path for Jew and a path for Gentile to walk to be righteous before the L-rd. Is that not also what Yeshua preached?

[JewishHeart]

I've heard statements by people on this board that pointed that.

1.) The main purpose of Messiah was to point us to Torah and the main purpose of Torah was not to point towards Messiah, but Messiah is one of its purposes but not the main - I wanted to bring a teaching otherwise.

2.) Halacha is authorative

3.) We should not listen to christian teachers who don't practice or teach the Noahcide covenants (simchat torah) or whose main teachings isn't about the law.

4.) I've heard people refer to christians in a bad light and idol worshipers, rather than people with a relationship with God who don't understand the purpose of Torah

5.) I've seen people on this board lift Torah above the Messiah ( even though they believe in Yeshua)

6.) I've seen almost a cultish feeling that halachic messianics obey god more

[ShirChadash]

I've heard statements by people on this board that pointed that.

1.) The main purpose of Messiah was to point us to Torah and the main purpose of Torah was not to point towards Messiah, but Messiah is one of its purposes but not the main - I wanted to bring a teaching otherwise.

2.) Halacha is authorative

3.) We should not listen to christian teachers who don't practice or teach the Noahcide covenants (simchat torah) or whose main teachings isn't about the law.

4.) I've heard people refer to christians in a bad light and idol worshipers, rather than people with a relationship with God who don't understand the purpose of Torah

5.) I've seen people on this board lift Torah above the Messiah ( even though they believe in Yeshua)

6.) I've seen almost a cultish feeling that halachic messianics obey god more
HM -- I don't think *I* have ever said any of the above, and I don't really have any history on these boards, as I am so new... so maybe I don't understand some water under the bridge so to speak... so probably, I should just HUSH and bow out now... :wave:

[Hix]

Fulfilled, in this case means he was the Torah, ie the living form thereof. The christian view on what fulfilled means always ends up annulling Torah which is exactly what Yeshua said he DIDNT do. He was warning he didnt come to do away with the Torah, but that he WAS the Torah.

[ShirChadash]

One question: Supremacy as in more important? Or as in Having authority over? Or both?


I think there may be some confusion in people's connotation of some terms?

[Hix]

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life... no man comes to the Father, but by ME."
He is the King... He is Supreme and He has fulfilled the Torah. He is Messiah.

Just wondering, what does "fulfilling the Torah" mean to you? Yeshua was the living Torah, he both taught it and lived it.

Psalm 111:2 The works of the LORD [are] great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. His work [is] honorable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD [is] gracious and full of compassion. He hath given meat unto them that fear him: He will ever be mindful of His covenant. He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that He may give them the heritage of the heathen. The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all His commandments [are] sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness. He sent redemption unto his people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and reverend [is] His name

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[ShirChadash]

It's interesting... (didn't I say I was Hushing now? well, water under the bridge aside, here are more thoughts)


As I see it, when Yeshua said He didn't come for the well, He was calling those who follow Torah as "well". He said He came for the sick -- those Jews who were not following Torah, and gentiles who (of course) didn't follow Torah either. I believe when Yeshua said that no man cometh to the Father but through Him, He was stating a from-time-immemorial fact -- it has ALWAYS been Yeshua -- the Torah -- Who has brought man near to Abba. Even before He walked as a man, this was true... it didn't somehow suddenly become a new "way-it-has-to-be" when Yeshua came in the flesh as Living, walking breathing Torah.


anyone?

[ShirChadash]

But do you see my point? He said some were well. Those who follow Torah are living Life. Yeshua gave us His Spirit so that we could live the Life (Torah) more abundantly (more fully)...

[Hix]

You say "completed" but would that not reference it is done away with? Yeshua did not of cource live the entire law as there are some with regards to females, some to Kohanim and some to owning vineyards in Eretz Yisrael etc. But he was the emodiment of the Torah in that he lived what applied to him and he taught it also. He came for those sick.

Now as for modern day Rabbinic Jews, it would be very harsh of HaShem to say in Romans that he has blinded the Jews to the knowlege of Yeshua if they did not have a method of salvation already. But in truth the Jews do know Yeshua, they dont know his name but they follow his words none the less, ie they follow the Torah. In the Tanach HaShem said that the Torah was the way to be righteous, the way for a relationship with haShem. Yeshua did not come to change that rather open the gates for those who were not already part of this great proclamation.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[JewishHeart]

Pray4Israel

AMEN!

Zemirah,

If you read my recent commentary on Galations you will see where Paul teaches against dual-covenant theology or the belief that Torah is good for the Jews and Yeshua in flesh is for the Gentiles.

[Hix]

Proverbs 16:6 – Through loving kindness and truth will iniquity be atoned; and through the fear of the L-rd [you] depart from evil.

Jeremiah 7:21-23 – Thus says the L-rd of Hosts, the G-d of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat meat. For I did not speak to your fathers, and I did not command them on the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning a burnt offerings and sacrifice; But this thing I commanded them, saying, 'Obey Me, and I will be your G-d and you shall be a people to Me; and you shall walk in all the ways that I will command you, so that it may be well with you.'"

Hosea 6:6 – For loving-kindness is what I desire, and not sacrifice; and knowledge of G-d more than burnt offerings.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[ShirChadash]

the belief that Torah is good for the Jews and Yeshua in flesh is for the Gentiles.
UM -- that's not at all what I am saying. I am saying Yeshua is the Open Door. The door He opens to us begins a Path. The path may be walked by walking Torah in Him. Do you have some preconceived notions about me, for some reason, that are causing you te read my comments a certain way? Personally I beleive that Torah and Yeshua are BOTH for everyone. Not everyone will see Torah, not everyone will see Yeshua -- For NOW. But a day will come when all will see both as they truly are and not in the light of misconception or clouded teaching, etc. I understand Paul's comments reasonably well, my friend. Why do you assume I do not?

[ShirChadash]

Yes. I do agree with that, Zem.
However, when it comes to forgiveness for sin:
There is no remission for sin without the shedding of blood.
We all sin, for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of G-d.
He came for all.
:hug: yes'm :) indeedy!

[JewishHeart]

I don't assume you don't , I do see alot of others on this forum who don't though.

[ShirChadash]

*chuckle*

[ShirChadash]

*rofl*!


/me runs and hides

[JewishHeart]

Does anybody want to deal with my interpretations of Galations and provide an ulternate interpretation to a verse? I am open to discussion.

[ShirChadash]

JewishHeart have you read the book Yeshua by Ron Moseley?

[JewishHeart]

No, what is it about? I'm interested in it. What type of messianic Judaism does it lie in?

I typically like reading stuff from Tikkun, MJAA,and UMJC.

[ShirChadash]

It's a fabulous book -- very good for understanding the true Yeshua, a Jew, whose followers were (and remained) Jews. It's a pretty "standard" recommendation book -- nothing "out there" by any means. He also deals with some of the common misunderstandings that have caused some misunderstanding due to our gentilized worldview of Paul's writings, the Parables of Yeshua, etc.


Also, may I recommend this link to Avi ben Mordechai's audio discussions on Galatians?

http://www.israelnet.tv/radio/html/avi/avi.html

[ShirChadash]

Okay -- not recommending the LINK LOL, but I meant the studies! LOL

[JewishHeart]

Zemirah,

I also want to know the Yeshua more in His Jewishness. I also crave to study the life of the first disciples, Jewish believers in Yeshua. I do know, however, just like there are different groups of Jewish sectors (Chabad, Lubavitcher, Charadi, Zionist, Reformed, Kariate,Breslev, etc. to name a few) with different ways of viewing Judaism. So messianic Judaism of the first century viewed things differently than any other Jewish group, and not just the fact that Yeshua is the Messiah.

[ShirChadash]

In case you are concerned (and I assume this is why you posted the above -- you see, I can't quite figure out what it is you are reading into my comments that make you respond comments like the above to me... so I will just imainge you are referring to the book material I recommended... but may I say you are quite wrong to keep assuming I know so little about both the ins and outs of Judaism and also the ins and outs of Christianity, my friend.) -- the book Yeshua is actually not at all written from a Rabbinic Judaism POV, etc. A link is here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1880226685/qid=1079980639/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-2043320-2727801

At this link you can look inside the book a bit. This book is highly recommended by pretty much every site I have ever seen on Messianic Judaism -- it's anything but unreliable or questionable.

[ShirChadash]

:sorry: anybody :help: Isn't Moseley's book pretty standard MJ fare, not Ephraimite, not anything but just solid discussion?

[WildCelt]

Okay -- not recommending the LINK LOL, but I meant the studies! LOL

Why not? What's up with Avi ben Mordechai? I see his name associated with Trimm's when googling, but I am not sure what to make of it.

[iitb]

Avi use to be somewhat affiliated with Trimm, but they've gone their separate ways.

[iitb]

...although Trimm likes to drop Avi's name regularly ;)

[simchat_torah]

hahah, He knows that Avi has a good following and is, for the most part, respected. Trimm desperately needs to attach his name to anything remotely respected :P

[iitb]

:sorry: anybody :help: Isn't Moseley's book pretty standard MJ fare, not Ephraimite, not anything but just solid discussion?
He pretty much takes the stand of Y'shua being a Pharisee, and discusses a few gospel accounts from that angle.

Not a bad little beginner book.

[simchat_torah]

They had their parting of ways something like 15-20'ish years ago I think? It's been a long long time.

[ShirChadash]

Why not? What's up with Avi ben Mordechai? I see his name associated with Trimm's when googling, but I am not sure what to make of it.
ack ack LOL -- Not one thing is wrong with Avi in my opinion ;) I was just being funny. I had written that I would like to recommend this certain "link" but the LINK isn't all I wanted to recommend -- LOL -- I was recommending the studies found AT the link ;) . Sorry to be so unclear. I have six lil ones running all around here taking my attention as well so when I type -- remember that for me and give me lots of grace please ;) .

[WildCelt]

I have six lil ones running all around here taking my attention as well so when I type -- remember that for me and give me lots of grace please ;) .

Six?! Heh, you need more than grace, achoti, you need a few extra arms! :D

[ShirChadash]

hahahahaaa! How true! LOL

[Talmidah]

Six?! Heh, you need more than grace, achoti, you need a few extra arms! :Dhahahahaaa! How true! LOL
I have an idea!!! ;) Just move out here....My children would like some new friends and I'd love to provide some extra arms to your little ones. OK...I'm off to check realtor.com :pink:

[ShirChadash]

heeheee Love ya Tal! :hug:

[JewishHeart]

I just wanted this thread to reappear because I need to refer to it in a chat in a christian room...

[iitb]

You know, this thread isn't appearing for me in the MJ forum :scratch:

[iitb]

...and my post brought it out of stealth mode. Weird.

[JewishHeart]

freaky... ironically I am using this original post to defend messianic Judaism among replacement theology christians

[iitb]

freaky... ironically I am using this original post to defend messianic Judaism among replacement theology christians
Ah. Good luck with that! ;)

[visionary]

Yeshua is the foundation of the whole Torah. The death of Abel was in consequence of Cain's refusing to accept God's plan in the school of obedience to be saved by the blood of Yeshua typified by the sacrificial offerings pointing to the Christ. Cain refused the shedding of blood which symbolized the blood of Yeshua to be shed for the world. This whole ceremony was prepared by God, and Yeshua became the foundation of the whole system. This is the beginning of its work as the schoolmaster to bring sinful human agents to a consideration of Yeshau the Foundation of the whole Torah.