Orthodox outreach to non-Christians

[Sergius_Lucius]

There was a discussion in the "Nature of Christ" thread. I'd like to continue it, as this question interests me much.
Yes, I'm not too fond of a "Dummies" book either. There are already plenty of intro to Orthodoxy books out there. But most of those are targetted for the protestant inquirer. Is it even possible to create a good and effective book for people of most mainstream backgrounds? (Orthodox, Catholic, protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, agnostic, atheist). I think it would also be very interesting to see books on Orthodoxy targetted for groups that aren't so mainstream (New Age, Wicca, etc.). I wonder what the approach would be!?
YES, YES, YES!

Sorry for the over-enthusiasm but this is exactly what is needed. So many American youths are rebelling against the bland rationalism of the past few centuries and searching for something "more"... in the wrong places. If only someone could write something for them showing how Orthodoxy answers this need in a way manufactured spiritualism and vague pantheism cannot.

It's great that so many protestants have found their home in the Historic Church of Christ, but I also agree that the outreach towards them is perhaps a little over-done in English-speaking Orthodoxy.
I'm not entirely sure why there are so many books targetted towards protestants. The reasons I could think of so far are:
1) Most Christian Americans identify themselves as protestant.
2) There was a large influx of protestants some time ago. Many of those converts then wrote books explaining Orthodoxy to other protestants.
3) There's sort of an unwritten principle not to actively convert TOLAC members.

But my own personal take on all this is:
1) Most of those protestants from that original influx were, well, conservative. Now many protestants have a quite liberal bent towards morals, ethics, and the identity of the Church. So all those books aren't quite as useful, anymore.
2) For crying out loud! Protestants are Christian! I welcome their conversion to the Orthodox Church, but I think we should focus a lot more on those who are currently agnostic/non-Christian.
3) We actually need books on explaining Orthodoxy to "cultural Orthodox". Right now they must make due with books targetted for protestants, but wouldn't it be nice to have a book for the lapsed Orthodox?
I see that Orthodox mission in the English-speaking countries directed mainly towards Christians and its main task is to explain them Orthodoxy as the true understanding of the Gospel. The missionaries in Russia have to explain the basics of Christian faith to people who mostly are non-believers. I believe, there is great amount of people in the West who are atheists/agnostics/indifferent, although it may be harder to preach to them then to people who already search for the true Church.

So what's your thoughts on this?

[Suzannah]

There was a discussion in the "Nature of Christ" thread. I'd like to continue it, as this question interests me much.



I see that Orthodox mission in the English-speaking countries directed mainly towards Christians and its main task is to explain them Orthodoxy as the true understanding of the Gospel. The missionaries in Russia have to explain the basics of Christian faith to people who mostly are non-believers. I believe, there is great amount of people in the West who are atheists/agnostics/indifferent, although it may be harder to preach to them then to people who already search for the true Church.

So what's your thoughts on this?
Hi Sergei!
What I am going to say is strictly my own opinion. Here in the west, we do have a great many agnostics/atheists but also people of other religions. In my mind, they are jaded and wary of "Christianity" and have become hardened to it, because of the constant bombardment in the west of television "evangelists" and cult missionaries who invade their homes. To them, Orthodoxy might seem to be just another "nut case" . In my opinion, Orthodoxy has done a very good job in the west, of remaining humble and non-intrusive . This to me, is the most effective witness. Orthodoxy has parish bookstores in the west, which I think does a beautiful job of allowing people to come in their time and way....The monasteries here in the west, also acheive this, by letting people come and see.

Some people may say that Orthodoxy is "unknown" in the west, and I guess that it may be true, but it is more accurate to say "invisible". And the Church is criticized for its "quiet" nature. But I daresay that most of this criticism comes from those who converted from evangelical Protestantism. They are simply not used to a quiet witness.

I think that all things come and flower in God's time. Orthodoxy is gaining more and more attention in the west, as people become dissastified with the way things are going in western traditions. In my opinion, most westerners will come to know Orthodoxy through books first, and then by attending a local parish for the first time. I don't think we can rush that. I also think that such books like "Orthodoxy for Dummies" would not be very helpful to the serious seeker, because the nature of it is such that it assumes westerners cannot grasp the East. I think that is an erroneous assumption. Many westerners are attracted to anything "Eastern" and what better thing to give them than Orthodoxy??? Many, many people have joined Buddhism, Hinduism etc because the mystical element in those religions is what attracts them. Orthodoxy has something beautiful to say to them and I believe that if they are capable of buying a copy of the Baghavad Gita, and actually reading it, they are fully capable of buying The Way of the Pilgrim.

[Sergius_Lucius]

Thanks, Suzannah! You say, people get to know Orthodoxy from books firstly. But do you agree with CyberSponge, that most Orthodox books are written for a Christian inquirer?

[Reader Nilus]

My first discovery of Met ANTHONY (Bloom) of blessed memory was in a book called Lost Christianity by Jacob Needleman, which was directed to new agers. Needleman was a new ager. There are the books by Kyriacos C. Markides that would speak to the neo-pagans and new agers. So yes there are some voices concerned about it, not a great many to be sure! It would seem to me it would be easier for Orthodoxy to speak to new agers than the academic protestant, as the new ager at least grants from the start that the spiritual world is real.
Jeff the Finn

[Suzannah]

Thanks, Suzannah! You say, people get to know Orthodoxy from books firstly. But do you agree with CyberSponge, that most Orthodox books are written for a Christian inquirer?
Yes, I guess I would agree with Cybersponge. Most of them seem to be written with the evangelical Protestant in mind. My first "book" introduction to Orthodoxy was actually several years ago, reading Jaroslav Pelikan's first volume in a series called "Early Christianity" (I think that was the title). He mentioned Orthodoxy quite a bit there. Then last year, I read The Orthodox Church by T. Ware.


I guess that I would say that the book which would appeal to the new ager the most would be The Way of the Pilgrim. In my opinion, the Russians "did it again" with that beautiful book....it would be to a Westerner, much like "The Prophet" of Khalil Gibran.

[Suzannah]

I want to add though that the west has a propensity for hijacking material for their own agenda. "The Prophet" by Khalil Gibran is a good example. It is used and referred to often when new agers want to promote their teachings about Jesus. Jesus himself is often used by new agers to promote new age teaching. So I do think it is over optimistic to think that new agers will immediately convert to Orthodoxy. Quite the contrary, they would simply assimiliate Orthodox teaching to further what they already believe and it may take a long time for them to "snap out of it".

[elizabethevangeline]

OK, I'm going to try to be coherent here. This is one of those topics I would love to discuss "live" because my brain is working faster than my fingers can type.

In my thinking, the most important reason the Orthodox church should be reaching out to the American protestant is because we need it. Like Marjorie said, American youth are searching for something more than rational religion. There is a whole "emerging church" movement in prot'ism addressing postmodern sensibilities. As I read about their search for 'how to do/be church in a postmodern society' it occured to me that they are searching for the Orthodox church. They use candles, incense, icons, prayer corners, etc. they want some mystery but are still trying to hold to personal interpretation/personal expression...still want to define how they relate to God. Even the Boomer generation is searching for a real experience of God. The danger for all categories is they are vulnerable to be led further astray...maybe to something that will cease to be "christian". So it's for their sake, not for the sake of Church growth.

As for non-believers, or non-churched folk. ? I've always wondered why they came to the evangelical churches, even tho it can be entertaining. Where do you start? That we were made for so much more than this life? That this life can be so much more? I do think the message of healing of soul sickness (vs. depravity of man) is much needed and desired.

And for some reason I just want to mention how refreshing it is to be greeted at coffee time with "hi, I've kissed you but we haven't met". :)

[Sergius_Lucius]

So I do think it is over optimistic to think that new agers will immediately convert to Orthodoxy. Quite the contrary, they would simply assimiliate Orthodox teaching to further what they already believe and it may take a long time for them to "snap out of it".Yes, it is what has happened in Russia. Since most people respect the Church they pretend to be Orthodox as well. All those "healers" and "psychics" like to use icons, crosses, candles etc. in their rituals. They see the Church as one of the "sources of energy".

[CyberSponge]

It's just that when I read about people's stories on their conversions to Orthodoxy (in books, etc.), it almost always seems they come from some mainstream evangelical protestantism. Even when they converted from some non-Christian belief system to Orthodoxy, almost invariably some type of Protestant Church was along the way and was where they first became Christian. Often times it seems to be something like this:

Nominal Christian ----> agnostic (with possible experimentation in other religions) ---> Evangelical Protestant ---> Orthodox Christian.

Not always the case, of course (I know some personal exceptions, such as the current president of my undergrad OCF who went straight from Atheism to agnosticism to Orthodoxy). So the question is, why do we seem so dependent on protestantism for converts? What did the Church (i.e., the people) do before protestantism to grow so rapidly and so widely?

CS

[Sergius_Lucius]

It's just that when I read about people's stories on their conversions to Orthodoxy (in books, etc.), it almost always seems they come from some mainstream evangelical protestantism. Even when they converted from some non-Christian belief system to Orthodoxy, almost invariably some type of Protestant Church was along the way and was where they first became Christian. Often times it seems to be something like this:

Nominal Christian ----> agnostic (with possible experimentation in other religions) ---> Evangelical Protestant ---> Orthodox Christian.

Not always the case, of course (I know some personal exceptions, such as the current president of my undergrad OCF who went straight from Atheism to agnosticism to Orthodoxy). So the question is, why do we seem so dependent on protestantism for converts? What did the Church (i.e., the people) do before protestantism to grow so rapidly and so widely?

CS
Do you think, that since Orthodoxy is still little known in the West, Christianity (or maybe belief in God in general?) is associated with Protestants and Catholics (just as in Russia it is associated with Orthodoxy). So when people become interested in Christianity, they just go to the denominations known to them. While people who are Christians already and seek the true Church sooner or later discover Orthodoxy.

[gzt]

I think in America we are dependent on Protestantism for converts because it's what there is in America. A good majority of people self-identify as Protestant and even more have at least some background in Protestantism. Therefore, for somebody who suddenly becomes interested in Christianity, it is only logical for them to turn up at a Protestant gathering, and the best-advertised and loudest ones are evangelicals. Now, I know a very large number of people where the path was:
[born Lutheran/Anglican/other traditional protestant group] -> [non-practicing (or very serious for a while)] -> [Orthodox].
No Evangelical period, only either a non-practicing/atheist phase or a very serious phase ending when they encounter Orthodoxy.

Just throwing that in as a counterpoint to some previous conversation.

[CyberSponge]

Do you think, that since Orthodoxy is still little known in the West, Christianity (or maybe belief in God in general?) is associated with Protestants and Catholics (just as in Russia it is associated with Orthodoxy). So when people become interested in Christianity, they just go to the denominations known to them. While people who are Christians already and seek the true Church sooner or later discover Orthodoxy.No, I don't think that is the reason. Notice my original post mentioned that we have a bunch of books designed for protestants and not agnostics. I think that's a big hint at our problem, right there. :)

[CyberSponge]

I think in America we are dependent on Protestantism for converts because it's what there is in America. A good majority of people self-identify as Protestant and even more have at least some background in Protestantism. Therefore, for somebody who suddenly becomes interested in Christianity, it is only logical for them to turn up at a Protestant gathering, and the best-advertised and loudest ones are evangelicals. Umm....most stories I've heard from my Christian friends aren't where someone, out of the blue, is like "I'm interested in Christianity, let me find a Church," but rather "Hey, my friend has invited me to one/is praying for me, so I should check it out." And (vastly) more often than not, that friend is a protestant.

Of course I realize that many americans have some type of Christian background. one of my original points was that many books written by former-protestants on their conversion were written awhile ago when that was fairly common. So now we need books for people who are lapsed Christians who may not have issues with things those books address, but have other issues that aren't addressed. I'm very interested in what approaches are used in Russia. :)

[gzt]

I think The Orthodox Way, which I believe was cited above as being directed at Protestants [or maybe not], really is directed at everybody. Schmemann's [go go Schmemann power!] collections of sermons were directed at atheists in Russia and serve that purpose well in English, too. Seraphim Rose wrote against nihilism and atheism, as well.

But you are right, it seems we mostly do go after Protestants at the exclusion of atheists. Something must be done!

[Marjorie]

I think in America we are dependent on Protestantism for converts because it's what there is in America.Well I think that's probably true in some places, but I know where I live (about an hour away from NYC) you'd be hardpressed to find someone who actually believes in the Trinity, the Incarnation, the inspiration of the Bible, etc.... though many people are nominal Christians, Catholic or Protestant. The few people I've known who were dedicated Christians were generally viewed as a little eccentric.

On the other hand most people I know are very YOUNG. I think part of it is that outreach is generally directed towards adults, whilst I am more forward-minded, considering that I am only turning 17 on Wednesday, haha.

We're becoming more and more of a "post-Christian" culture, so with each generation Orthodoxy is going to have to become more concerned with non-Christian outreach.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Marjorie]

I think The Orthodox Way, which I believe was cited above as being directed at Protestants [or maybe not], really is directed at everybody. Schmemann's [go go Schmemann power!] collections of sermons were directed at atheists in Russia and serve that purpose well in English, too. Seraphim Rose wrote against nihilism and atheism, as well.This is probably why The Orthodox Way and Schmemann's works are my favorites. :D

I love all the protestant-directed books but a lot of the things in them just don't apply to me.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

I agree that there are very few serious practicing Christians of any stripe in many places in America, but even so, in surveys, the majority self-identify as Protestant and more have at least some experience with Protestantism, whether or not they're practicing or even aware of the dogma of the Trinity.

[gzt]

I never read any "Protestant-directed" books until this summer, I spent most of my time reading the Church Fathers, general books directed to the entire world [Schmemann, Ware], or academic books [Lossky, Schmemann, etc], so perhaps I'm not suited to comment on the literature.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Know why I decided to first visit an Orthodox Church? Someone shared their faith with me. That was it.

But, I had already had a protestant hodge-podge background (but had found my belief system to be hollow). I would have no idea how to reach someone who knows nothing of Christianity. Actually, I would think it would be very hard to find people unfamiliar with Christianity in this country. And I just can't imagine anyone coming to Orthodoxy because of an intellectual understanding found in a book. Orthodoxy is a living faith, not just a theology. I'm rambling.......again....:doh:

[Marjorie]

Actually, I would think it would be very hard to find people unfamiliar with Christianity in this country.Well, true, but I don't think it's so much a matter of reaching out to those who don't know about Christianity but those who are simply not from Christian backgrounds. I know that I grew up aware of (though not a part of) what I believed to be Christianity, but wasn't at all...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[CyberSponge]

Know why I decided to first visit an Orthodox Church? Someone shared their faith with me. That was it.

But, I had already had a protestant hodge-podge background (but had found my belief system to be hollow). I would have no idea how to reach someone who knows nothing of Christianity. Actually, I would think it would be very hard to find people unfamiliar with Christianity in this country. And I just can't imagine anyone coming to Orthodoxy because of an intellectual understanding found in a book. Orthodoxy is a living faith, not just a theology. I'm rambling.......again....:doh:well, actually I do know quite a few people (and I'm sure there are some here on TAW) who first read about Orthodoxy in a book, then sometime later (sometimes MUCH later) actually visited an Orthodox Church. But you're right, the book thing isn't the deal-breaker. It's more of just a sign of effort, IMO. We put more effort into apologetics directed at protestants than any other group, by far. I think even just a small booklet explaining Orthodoxy to an agnostic would go very far. It would be something I could give to friends of mine when the topic comes up. A full-fledged book would be nice, but in that little pamphlet/booklet stand that some churches have (with "How to Face up to Mary", and "Which Came First, the Church or the Bible?", I'd like to see something along the lines of "Who is this Christ person?" or "No, we don't believe God wants to punish you", or "Orthodoxy Explained: for the agnostic" (ok, those may all be lame ideas but you get the point :D )

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

well, actually I do know quite a few people (and I'm sure there are some here on TAW) who first read about Orthodoxy in a book, then sometime later (sometimes MUCH later) actually visited an Orthodox Church. )
Of course. I've heard people say that. It just wasn't my personal experience. I think you have very good ideas, btw.:)

[Marjorie]

If you think about it, if agnosticism consisted of people who were mostly genuinely agnostic as opposed to generally apathetic and turned off towards Christianity, then Orthodoxy would have a lot that it could say to agnostics that they would find interesting. Apophatic theology would have a lot of appeal for the genuine agnostic, no?

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[CyberSponge]

Know why I decided to first visit an Orthodox Church? Someone shared their faith with me. That was it.

and I'm glad they did. :)

[Crazy Liz]

We put more effort into apologetics directed at protestants than any other group, by far.

May I make a suggestion? I would like to see the Orthodox apologetics directed at protestants to recognize more explicitly that protestants are Christians. Too much has been written by protestant converts to Orthodoxy that seems to insist that path is the best. Those of us who have gained an appreciation for Orthodoxy, but remain protestant, feel a little left out of the discussion.

ISTM, Orthodox Christians don't want protestants proselytizing in Orthodox countries. I think this is a good point. As a corollary, I realize Orthodox Christians have traditionally not evangelized in non-Orthodox Christian countries. I can see opportunities for bridge-building. It seems the "hybrid vigor" that comes from exposure to both Evangelical Christianity and Orthodox Christianity produces a very vibrant faith. Can we possibly celebrate and promote this, rather than seeking conversions?

EE mentioned the "emerging church" movement back on page 1. She is correct about some of its dangers. Do you think there would be any room for an Orthodox catechist, for example, to provide help and advice to such protestant Christians, without necessarily expecting them to convert? Do you think it would be possible for Evangelicals to assist Orthodox Christians in biblical training?

[Marjorie]

ISTM, Orthodox Christians don't want protestants proselytizing in Orthodox countries. I think this is a good point. As a corollary, I realize Orthodox Christians have traditionally not evangelized in non-Orthodox Christian countries.I know you didn't say this, but I tend to think that there's some hypocrisy amongst some Orthodox, in that they're all for evangelizing their protestant brothers and sisters in Christ but blow up if they hear anything about protestant missionaries in Orthodox countries. However, there is a difference between respectfully presenting different beliefs and allowing people to make a decision and going into a country and saying "y'all aren't saved unless you believe x, y, z." (On the flip-side, there is a difference between presenting the claims of the Orthodox Church to protestants and saying, "if you don't join the Church you're a damned apostate.")

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[katherine2001]

Liz, my experience has been different. I cerainly think Protestants are Christians, but I know many Protestants who don't think Orthodox are Christians. I've lost most of my Protestant friends since I've been Orthodox. Many of them think that I'm involved in some kind of cult. I think many of us on this board have had the same type of experience.

[Sergius_Lucius]

I agree that we, Orthodox in "Orthodox countries", need to learn about Protestants more and don't see them as dangerous invaders. That's what we can learn from Orthodox in "Protestants countries".

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Here's something I found that might be good:

THE ABC's OF ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY by Archimandrite Daniel Byantoro, Fr. Gordon T. Walker, and Michael T. McKibben packet of 25/$5.95
This pamphlet is geared to the un-churched, to Christians searching for the True Faith, and to Orthodox Christians who have fallen away. The ABC's of Orthodox Christianity uses an easy "ABC" format to communicate the basic theology of the Orthodox Faith. Issues discussed include: "All of us are created in God's Image," "Christ became one of us," "Death is conquered when we believe and are baptized," and "Entering the Church opens the door to life." The tract uses eye-catching graphics that will encourage people to pick it up and read it. It is an excellent choice to include in the church pamphlet rack, offer to visitors, and even use for discussion groups.

[Marjorie]

Well, one thing to remember is that in the non-Christian world it's taken for granted that Christianity is simplistic and for the naive and mentally deficient. One of the things it took me a while to grasp is the fact that truly brilliant people accepted the tenets of the Faith, and not just incidentally. G. K. Chesterton was important for me in this regard.

The problem with an "ABC" or systematic method is that it recalls the standard "1, 2, 3" message taught by most evangelicals in this country... whereas non-Christians I know are mostly looking for something DEEP. They feel Christianity is a surface-deep religion and that strains of mysticism are in it only DESPITE the religion. An example would be the immensely popular book The Mists of Avalon, in which the Avalon druids and priestesses refer to the Christians as the "once-born," as if they have not yet found deeper wisdom found in the pagan mystery religions (only those who have been through many reincarnations reach out for something as deep as goddess-worship.) One needs to show outsiders that Christianity can be deep, brilliant, bottomless, dark and luminous... which is just what is found in Orthodoxy. Whilst I haven't read the ABC pamphlet, so I can't judge it, it seems to me that some things would actually have more resonance with protestants, who are used to that kind of format.

When my sort-of-Hindu friend asked me about Orthodoxy I told him to read For the Life of the World. If he wants a deep, cosmic understanding of Christ's purpose and His Church... I think Fr. Schmemann gives that. However it would be interesting to see something written in the same manner especially for neo-pagans or those interested in the Eastern (remember, we are Eastern!!!) religions.

So basically what I'm saying is that we have to learn how to be like Jews to the Jews and like Gentiles to the Gentiles à la Paul... in that we have to learn to even change the way we're speaking (as opposed to the context) when we speak to different groups of people.

--- This is so difficult; I understand why we give the term "Equal to the Apostles" to the missionary saints. :D

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[countrymousenc]

With apology for not reading the 2nd page of the thread before posting...

I got the gist of the question, I think, as being whether we should concentrate our evangelistic efforts more toward non-Christians than toward Christians. I honestly think that here in North America, we need to target both, equally, because both need Orthodoxy. I'm not saying that non-Orthodox Christians won't make it to heaven, but look at what they're missing! It borders on being selfish to not try to get the message out there. Orthodoxy is what I've searched for all 49 years of my life even though I didn't know that until recently. Look at the difference in what some of us were taught about God and what Orthodoxy teaches us about Him. We mustn't hold that back. I'm praying that God will raise up and gift evangelists to both groups.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

double post.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Wow, Marjorie.....I'm glad you're sharing your thoughts on this. Very interesting! I think my experiences in coming to the Church are vastly different from yours, and perhaps a lot of other people. The whole "deep Eastern mysticism" thing actually freaked me out a little in the beginning. It definitely wasn't something I was looking for. And if someone would've handed me a deep book like that in the beginning, I would've run the other way! When I was first told about Orthodoxy, I was feeling lost spiritually. I wanted the True Church, but had no idea that She existed. I believe it was the Holy Spirit that confirmed in my heart that I had found it. It was nothing I read.

One of my biggest frustrations in coming to Orthodoxy is how DEEP and mystical a lot of the theology is! I will probably never be able to grasp all of it. These "ABC" type pamphlets are great for people like me (and I'm not mentally deficient, despite what a few people in here might think...;) ).

[Marjorie]

Haha well I think this is one example of how very catholic Orthodoxy is, in that it can appeal to both you and me for completely different reasons. What drew me at first was definitely the "deep, Eastern mysticism" of it all... from a neo-pagan/neo-gnostic background that's probably not surprising. :) (In fact, a lot of Frederica's writings really helped me at this point, because she comes from a sort of Hindu/New Age-y background... in any case, closer to mine than Protestantism.) Anyway, for me "facing up to Mary" really meant "facing up to Mary as a human and not semi-divine being." And the tendency of the Church to interpret things figuratively never bothered me-- what bothered me was how "literalist" the Church was (even in believing things like the Second Coming.)

But diversity has always been part of the Orthodox faith. Just look at St. Paul and St. James (or St. Peter while we're at it)!

When it comes to the Church Fathers, I tend to be drawn towards the ones coming out of the Alexandrian school (which historically tended towards mysticism and over-spiritualization)-- you'd probably feel more comfortable with the down-to-earth Antiochian school (which could at times tend towards over-literalization.) Monophysitism (Alexandrian) and Nestorianism (Antiochian) were always dangers, but of course the Orthodoxy of all these saints was and is the happy medium.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Oblio]

"No, we don't believe God wants to punish you",


In my previous internet life (beliefnet,thestraightdope ...), this surfaced as a common thread among atheists and agnostics, manifesting itself as the If that is your God, I want no part of Him .... Orthodoxy answers this !

[CyberSponge]

One of my biggest frustrations in coming to Orthodoxy is how DEEP and mystical a lot of the theology is! I will probably never be able to grasp all of it.
Actually, that's one of my frustrations, too. That's why I love books like "Journey To Heaven" by St. Tikhon of Zadonsk b/c it's so down-to-earth yet very powerful. Maybe it's so poweful to me because it's down-to-earth. :) I lose interest very quickly with some of the headier and mystical books.

BTW...thanks Sergius for starting this thread!

[CyberSponge]

I thought of it b/c just before I wrote that, I talked to my atheist roommate, and basically one of his main gripes with the concept of an afterlife is about the understanding of the afterlife that thinks Christians believe (immediate heaven or hell for the soul)...which is why I've been making such a big issue on other threads about the afterlife. It is, in fact, an important issue b/c there are a lot of people with misconceptions, and these misconceptions are stumbling blocks.

In my previous internet life (beliefnet,thestraightdope ...), this surfaced as a common thread among atheists and agnostics, manifesting itself as the If that is your God, I want no part of Him .... Orthodoxy answers this !

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

BTW...thanks Sergius for starting this thread!
Yes, thanks Sergie! :)

[Marjorie]

Yes, this is a great thread Sergey! :)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[MariaRegina]

Here's something I found that might be good:

THE ABC's OF ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY by Archimandrite Daniel Byantoro, Fr. Gordon T. Walker, and Michael T. McKibben packet of 25/$5.95
This pamphlet is geared to the un-churched, to Christians searching for the True Faith, and to Orthodox Christians who have fallen away. The ABC's of Orthodox Christianity uses an easy "ABC" format to communicate the basic theology of the Orthodox Faith. Issues discussed include: "All of us are created in God's Image," "Christ became one of us," "Death is conquered when we believe and are baptized," and "Entering the Church opens the door to life." The tract uses eye-catching graphics that will encourage people to pick it up and read it. It is an excellent choice to include in the church pamphlet rack, offer to visitors, and even use for discussion groups.

Where did you find these pamphlets? Where can you obtain them?

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Where did you find these pamphlets? Where can you obtain them?
Here: http://www.surge.net/orthodox/stignatius/

It's sold by a small Orthodox Mission not far from where I live! I just discovered it doing a search. They don't have a lot to choose from, but any money they receive will help support their mission. Definitely a good cause.:)

[Crazy Liz]

Liz, my experience has been different. I cerainly think Protestants are Christians, but I know many Protestants who don't think Orthodox are Christians. I've lost most of my Protestant friends since I've been Orthodox. Many of them think that I'm involved in some kind of cult. I think many of us on this board have had the same type of experience.

I totally validate that statement. I serve on my church's mission committee. We support a number of missionaries in Eastern Europe. There are a few on our committee who have this mindset - thinking we need to bring Catholics and Orthodox to Christ. OTOH, the best of our missionaries there do not have this mindset. Our star (IMHO) heads up Youth for Christ Croatia, training Catholic, Orthodox and protestant youth leaders. Because she is protestant, she has an entree to both Catholic and Orthodox leaders, and has a significant ecumenical peacemaking ministry, having taken her position shortly after that country's civil war. :thumbsup: I wish we had a lot more like her.

[Reader Nilus]

There are a number of Orthodox who do not think there are Christians outside of the Orthodox Church. Just take a look at the Indiana List and see the outrage that the EP and Lutherans in Germany recognized each other's baptisms! There are problems on both sides.
Reader Nilus

[katherine2001]

Unfortunately, I know you are right there. I usually avoid them like the plague. Only God knows who the real Christians are, and He is the only one to judge.

[Rilian]

Sorry to quote all the way back from page 1, but I just read this thread...

Do you think, that since Orthodoxy is still little known in the West, Christianity (or maybe belief in God in general?) is associated with Protestants and Catholics (just as in Russia it is associated with Orthodoxy). So when people become interested in Christianity, they just go to the denominations known to them.

I think in the West for the most part Christianity = Catholicism + Protestantism. Orthodoxy is in reality very little known in this country, and relatively speaking there are few Orthodox Christians and churches. I would assume most people who lapse go back to churches they grew up in, they go to a church their spouse is a member of or they join a church of somebody they have personal experience with. The last two probably applying to somebody coming in to Chrisianity from another background. It's sad, but I think the greatest barrier to Orthodoxy in this country is the idea that it is a niche church tied to ethic identity.

While people who are Christians already and seek the true Church sooner or later discover Orthodoxy.

I've only run into a couple of people who weren't Christian, or from a Christian background, who converted to Orthodoxy. I know everybody is different and every journey has it's own peculiarities, but there seem to me to be two general types of people who convert from another Christian tradition:

People looking for the mystical life of the church who identify very much with the “Eastern” spirituality of Orthodoxy.

People who through their own search for the “early church” come to believe the Orthodox Church is the true, unchanging church of Christ.

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

There are a number of Orthodox who do not think there are Christians outside of the Orthodox Church. Just take a look at the Indiana List and see the outrage that the EP and Lutherans in Germany recognized each other's baptisms! There are problems on both sides.
Reader Nilus
I've been warned by an Orthodox friend of mine not to visit that list. It has a bad reputation, apparently.

[Reader Nilus]

I've been warned by an Orthodox friend of mine not to visit that list. It has a bad reputation, apparently.The gloves are off on that list, it got so bad that my Bishop His Grace Bishop TIKHON opened his own list called Normal Orthodox on Yahoo so he could control the access only to those who are in communion with the major sees, and SCOBA. The Indiana List has some good on it, but it is not a place to get warm and fuzzys.
Reader Nilus

[katherine2001]

I will miss His Grace, Bishop TIKHON, when he retires within the next couple of years. He is the only one I enjoy reading on the Indiana List. I very rarely go there, but when I do, I love to read his posts. He is not afraid to take those people on. Right now, he is in the process of choosing the patron saint for our mission. I can't wait to find out whe he has chosen. We submitted a list of 5 names to him, but I've heard that he often chooses one who is not on your list. He does a lot of fasting and praying and chooses whomever the Holy Spirit leads him to choose. I'm hoping it will be St. Tikhon (who consecrated the Serbian church in Butte in 1905) or St. John Maximovich of Shanghai and San Francisco), but I'll be happy with whomever the Holy Spirit and Bishop TIKHON choose.

[NewToLife]

Hmmm, the biggest problem with evangelising atheists in my experience is that they can't really distinguish us from western christians in general and Roman Catholics in particular, this raises a number of problems because many atheists are actually fairly familiar with the basics of western theology, you cannot simply present the gospel to them, you need to first deal with this intellectual baggage. There seems to be no real way of doing this without comparing and contrasting western ideas with Orthodox Tradition ( particularly protestant teaching in nominally protestant countries ). I believe this may well be why so much Orthodox writing is devoted to this area.

This problem is of course even worse when it comes to Catholicism because we are seen as closer to the Catholic church than others in many areas, this can lead to an assumption that we are merely exotic Catholics. In this case we must strive to find a balance between love for those under Papal authority and the need to distance The Church from many of the Catholic church's more extreme errors, particularly those historical errors which unfortunately do color many atheists views of Christianity in general, I speak of course of the crusades and inquisitions etc. If we say nothing on such issues we are seen to implicitly accept what has been done but we risk conflict with Catholicism anytime we do speak up.

[The Virginian]

As I understand it, The Great Commission does not make a differentiation between Christian groups. We are commanded to evangelize all peoples. We do not have to pray that God would equip the members of His body for that purpose, He has already done so. The issue at hand is for us Orthodox Christians to yeild ourselves to the Holy Spirit, so that the gifts and ministries He has placed within the body may be utilized, until we all "... atttain to a measure of the stature of the fulness, which belongs to Christ."
The methods used to "evangelize" are basically the same as those used by Protestants; you pass out Orthodox tracts/pamphlets, invite them to Divine Liturgy (which will, because of their unfamiliarity, generate more questions), and probably most importantly, walk the walk you talk, i.e., live the Holy Tradition as God gives you the grace. The last point will do more to bring people to Christ and Holy Orthodoxy than anything else.
There are probably enough books at this point about how to evangelize, that the world does not need another single one of them. We just need to do what we know we need to, obey the command!


the sinful and unworthy servant

[countrymousenc]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The Virginian again.

Good post, Virginian. :)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

The methods used to "evangelize" are basically the same as those used by Protestants; you pass out Orthodox tracts/pamphlets,
If I had seen or heard of the Orthodox Church supporting the idea of passing out tracts on the street, I would have NEVER come to Orthodoxy!!! This is the kind of garbage that drove me away from the evangelical churches. I believe in evangelism, but I believe in doing it the way the early Church did it: They lived the faith of the apostles, and were not ashamed to be identified as Christians. I don't think we should adopt the same kind of techniques used by cheesy, polyester suit wearing salesmen who are pushing to try to sell a substandard product. I was at a parade this past summer and the baptists and some other charasmatic groups were passing out tracts to all of us unsaved heathens (some of them were Jack Chick tracts!). I think it was the most condescending and unChristian concept I've ever seen. Giving people something they niether want nor ask for is very disrespectful IMO, and is the same as saying "Hey, you're too stupid to know that you aren't 'saved' like we are! You better read this!" :sick: :doh:

[Reader Nilus]

Met. ANTHONY (Bloom) of blessed memory writes in an article Meeting a Non-Orthodox Society (http://www.jacwell.org/articles/1997-WINTER-MetAnthony.html):
There is an episode in the life of St. Stephen of Perm, one of the early Russian missionaries. He discovered in the region of Perm pagan people with a language different from the language spoken by the Slavs, and therefore out of reach of the Gospel. He learned their language, and went out to the region of Perm, where he began to pray in their midst. The local shamans wanted to destroy him and they sent a group of armed men to kill him. They came back and the shaman said, "Is he dead?" "No", they said, "we could not kill him; when we met him face to face, there was such love and openness in him that we knelt down and begged for his blessing." That is mission.
http://s88610834.onlinehome.us/stephenperm.jpg
That is a way of evangelism that puts us on the spot, not the potential convert. If we want people coming to Orthodoxy, then we have to live the life that St Stephen of Perm did.
Reader Nilus

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Met. ANTHONY (Bloom) of blessed memory writes in an article Meeting a Non-Orthodox Society (http://www.jacwell.org/articles/1997-WINTER-MetAnthony.html):
There is an episode in the life of St. Stephen of Perm, one of the early Russian missionaries. He discovered in the region of Perm pagan people with a language different from the language spoken by the Slavs, and therefore out of reach of the Gospel. He learned their language, and went out to the region of Perm, where he began to pray in their midst. The local shamans wanted to destroy him and they sent a group of armed men to kill him. They came back and the shaman said, "Is he dead?" "No", they said, "we could not kill him; when we met him face to face, there was such love and openness in him that we knelt down and begged for his blessing." That is mission.
http://s88610834.onlinehome.us/stephenperm.jpg
That is a way of evangelism that puts us on the spot, not the potential convert. If we want people coming to Orthodoxy, then we have to live the life that St Stephen of Perm did.
Reader Nilus
:thumbsup: Excellent! We need the help of St. Stephen of Perm!:crosseo:

[Oblio]

I think that since we have the fullness of the Gospel, and pure Christianity, it makes sense to outreach to non-Orthodox Christians. I don't think one can ever complete their walk towards Christ in this life, and if the Church allows everyone to progress towards that goal, we should reach out to everyone who is not Orthodox.

There is a practical reason for outreaching to non-EO Christians and that is simply that we need to grow the Church and the more members that we have (no matter where they come from) the faster we can grow, both in converts and new Christians.

[vanshan]

I agree that tracts, and bumper stickers in general, are not a good way to reach people. It's very impersonal. It doesn't show direct love through actions or sacrifice. However, that said, sometimes just educating people can be an act of love and mercy, but I think an educational pamphlet, not a cheesy tract with drawings, would be okay sometimes.

Think of how little exposure Orthodoxy has in America. It's a miracle that any of us became converts. You either have to drive down a certain road and see a parish, or attend an ethnic festival, or happen to have a friend of a friend who is Orthodox (which is how I found Orthdoxy).

Basil

[Crazy Liz]

There is a practical reason for outreaching to non-EO Christians and that is simply that we need to grow the Church and the more members that we have (no matter where they come from) the faster we can grow, both in converts and new Christians.

Why? :confused:

Growth for growth's sake is the big mistake of the Evangelical mega-churches. I pray you don't fall into that trap.

(If this is considered debating, please forgive me. :pray: I notice I'm replying to a mod, so I suppose if it is, I'll find out pretty fast. :doh: )

[Suzannah]

Why? :confused:

Growth for growth's sake is the big mistake of the Evangelical mega-churches. I pray you don't fall into that trap.

(If this is considered debating, please forgive me. :pray: I notice I'm replying to a mod, so I suppose if it is, I'll find out pretty fast. :doh: )
Why? It's a question in the form of a statement.... ;)

[Grand_Duchess-Elizaveta]

Why? :confused:

Growth for growth's sake is the big mistake of the Evangelical mega-churches. I pray you don't fall into that trap.

)
I agree 1000 %! :thumbsup:

[Oblio]

Growth for growth's sake is the big mistake of the Evangelical mega-churches. I pray you don't fall into that trap.


No, you are not debating. I didn't mean growth for growth's sake, growth is an outcome of more people becoming truly Orthodox. That is the goal.

We generally don't have large churches, certainly not mega-churches, and we certainly don't advocate any change of the Church in order to bring in more people as mega-churches do. We grow the Church by exposing more people to the true faith, not by changing it to fit the whims of modern western culture.

[katherine2001]

I don't believe in handing out tracts. In our mission, we have many different ones on the table in the back and people are welcome to take them if they would like one. We had a garage sale once to raise money for the mission and had tracts and icons on the table where we were taking the money. People asked questions about the icons and were free to take tracts if they were interested in finding out more about us.

[countrymousenc]

I agree that the way we reach out to both non-Christians and other Christians needs to set us apart from the way Evangelicals do it. We don't need to give the impression that we're just another competing denomination.

[Reader Nilus]

The amazing thing is according to the Fathers and the Saints, if we busy ourselves with saving our souls and aquiring the Holy Spirit, everyone will be drawn to us.
Reader Nilus

[countrymousenc]

The amazing thing is according to the Fathers and the Saints, if we busy ourselves with saving our soulls and aquiring the Holy Spirit, everyone will be drawn to us.
Reader Nilus

It makes sense to me, since theosis is about becoming godly, which is learning to love. And if we love others, we will draw them toward God. We don't have to beat them over the head with a lot of words.

[gzt]

The amazing thing is according to the Fathers and the Saints, if we busy ourselves with saving our soulls and aquiring the Holy Spirit, everyone will be drawn to us.
Reader Nilus
IAWTP. Quite amazing.

[NewToLife]

The amazing thing is according to the Fathers and the Saints, if we busy ourselves with saving our souls and aquiring the Holy Spirit, everyone will be drawn to us.


In general I agree with this fully. Once they are showing an active interest though we should not be hesitant to state the truth fully and clearly.

[elizabethevangeline]

To quote Oblio: "since we have fullness of the Gospel, and pure Christianity, it makes sense to outreach to non-Orthodox"...I'm not even Orthodox yet and there are days I dream of an Orthodox mission in my county...and not just so my commute is shorter!:).

I make a mental inventory of those family and friends who would love it if they just gave it a chance...because I know their hearts and their strivings to be in right relationship with God. They want to be transformed by Christ. They are hungry for God. I really think that this upcoming generation could be the most receptive to Orthodoxy in American history. Will you be ready to receive them? Will there be enough priests?

Reader Nilas and countrymousenc have made crucial comments about how to reach out.


I'm really not as fanatical as I sound :) ...and I've never been into evangelism. Some days I freak out at the changes I'm considering bringing to my whole family and am sure I won't be able to hack the Orthodox life and maybe I just don't love God enough.