Culture questions: aramaic and gestures

[theseed]

Hi everbodby :wave:

I saw The Passion for the 2nd time this week, and I noticed some new things. (I did not want to see it so soon again, but I went with my family, 2 who are not beliers).

This time, I noticed that the aramiac on the sermon on the mount had definite rythem and aliteration, just like poetry. I also noticed that the Pharisees and Yeshua made slow steady gestures has they spoke. This is different from American cutlture, we move our hands fast.


Does abody know anything about this? Was the movie accurate cultrally in this respect?

[The Thadman]

Hi everbodby :wave:

I saw The Passion for the 2nd time this week, and I noticed some new things. (I did not want to see it so soon again, but I went with my family, 2 who are not beliers).

This time, I noticed that the aramiac on the sermon on the mount had definite rythem and aliteration, just like poetry. I also noticed that the Pharisees and Yeshua made slow steady gestures has they spoke. This is different from American cutlture, we move our hands fast.


Does abody know anything about this? Was the movie accurate cultrally in this respect?

Little about the movie was culturally accurate as far as I could tell (it would be neat to see what was accurate). :-) But the particular issue concerning the rhythm, meter, and poetry is common of Jesus' teachings (i.e. the Lord's Prayer, Sermon on the Mount, Beattitudes, which are all elaborate poetic works). As for moving hands, I think Mel thought it was easier to understand the poetry with the actor keeping time. :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[theseed]

Yes, I agree the gestures helped the audience understand (us). The Pharisees did it too.

[koilias]

Hmm...I somehow doubt they had "slow" gestures...but I'm basing my beliefs on modern day Israelis. ^_^

I don't believe Aramaic would have been the language Yeshua taught in. Some of his sayings make better sense in Hebrew. Rabbis taught in Hebrew. Of the roughly 5,000 Rabbinic parables that are extant only two are in Aramaic. Why? Becuase they were originally in Hebrew...and that reflects the preferred language of the 1st and 2nd century. The only reason people still believe that Aramaic was spoken in the first century over Hebrew is that most American colleges are still in denial. Their professors have had it droned to them all of their lives that Aramaic was the preferred language of Rabbis, but this discounts a mountain of evidence the other way. And this is becoming increasingly clear in places where study of the Dead Sea Scrolls is relatively advanced. Only a few American colleges have a good handle on the DSS studies.

Also Latin would not have been spoken between Romans and Jews. Greek would have been the conversant language.

[YatzivPatgam]

Hi everbodby :wave:

I saw The Passion for the 2nd time this week, and I noticed some new things. (I did not want to see it so soon again, but I went with my family, 2 who are not beliers).

This time, I noticed that the aramiac on the sermon on the mount had definite rythem and aliteration, just like poetry. I also noticed that the Pharisees and Yeshua made slow steady gestures has they spoke. This is different from American cutlture, we move our hands fast.


Does abody know anything about this? Was the movie accurate cultrally in this respect?
I think Mr. Gibson learned the Aramiac in a rythem to learn it better. It's how children who know Hebrew as a 2nd language learn prayers. Putting the Adon Olam to any tune speeds the learning process.

Also, thats why we Hasids rock during prayer, praying with our very bones. It's a common accurance in semetic languages.

If you have ever been to the middle east, when the Muezueins ( is that correct? ) who call Prayers and announcments from the mosque tower do it in a song almost.

Just the way this family of languages go.

[YatzivPatgam]

Hmm...I somehow doubt they had "slow" gestures...but I'm basing my beliefs on modern day Israelis. ^_^

I don't believe Aramaic would have been the language Yeshua taught in. Some of his sayings make better sense in Hebrew. Rabbis taught in Hebrew. Of the roughly 5,000 Rabbinic parables that are extant only two are in Aramaic. Why? Becuase they were originally in Hebrew...and that reflects the preferred language of the 1st and 2nd century. The only reason people still believe that Aramaic was spoken in the first century over Hebrew is that most American colleges are still in denial. Their professors have had it droned to them all of their lives that Aramaic was the preferred language of Rabbis, but this discounts a mountain of evidence the other way. And this is becoming increasingly clear in places where study of the Dead Sea Scrolls is relatively advanced. Only a few American colleges have a good handle on the DSS studies.

Also Latin would not have been spoken between Romans and Jews. Greek would have been the conversant language.
Kolias, I think for the first time in a good while, we are at a 98.9999% agreement on something ( Other then G-d exists. )

Yay!:clap:

[theseed]

Yes, in Hebrew would make sense too. I could not tell the difference either way. So I ask if you did see the Romans speaking in Latin to the Jews?

According to the Gospel of Matthew, Yeshua read a passage in Hebrews from Isaiah, and said, "Today this is fullfilled in your eyes" afterwards.

[koilias]

Kolias, I think for the first time in a good while, we are at a 98.9999% agreement on something ( Other then G-d exists. )

Yay!:clap:Well, achi, sorry for the other times we disagree...Although if all agreed 100% that means that we would not really be learning...That's why I love achi Thadman here. ;)

[koilias]

Yes, in Hebrew would make sense too. I could not tell the difference either way. So I ask if you did see the Romans speaking in Latin to the Jews?

According to the Gospel of Matthew, Yeshua read a passage in Hebrews from Isaiah, and said, "Today this is fullfilled in your eyes" afterwards.
Hmm...well they spoke lots of Latin. But I guess you're right they spoke Aramaic to them. Still, I think Pilate would have addressed the crowd in Greek.

Aramaic was spoken by the way...I'm not suggested it wasn't, especially since Jerusalem had many pilgrims from other places. But between Jews and when the Rabbis speak: that language was Hebrew.

[The Thadman]

I don't believe Aramaic would have been the language Yeshua taught in. Some of his sayings make better sense in Hebrew.

I'd have to disagree with you on that one :-) They have better rhyme, meter and verse in Aramaic, and there are many puns that would not come off in Hebrew that have to do with Aramaic roots. :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[koilias]

I'd have to disagree with you on that one :-) They have better rhyme, meter and verse in Aramaic, and there are many puns that would not come off in Hebrew that have to do with Aramaic roots. :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-oSame thing the other way. In the parable of the vineyard and wicked tenants there is a three-level wordplay Yeshua uses with the words: ben (son), eben (stone) and bonim (builders). Yohannan uses it too when he says "sons will be raised from these stones" (min ebanim banim). :) (Interesting that this pun is used in Josephus' Wars by the Jews in defence of Jerusalem when they hurl stones at the Romans.)