1Tim 2:9-10...good works?

[PinkButterfly1980]

I am currently Catholic, but probably switching to an evangelical faith. I'm looking most heavily at the Southern Baptist denomination because it is very Bible-based. The Catholic church teaches that good works are necessary in order to achieve salvation. From what I have read so far, the SBC and other non-Catholic Christian denominations argue that good works are not necessary for salvation. I know I read that in the Bible for myself (the book, chapter, and verse are escaping me right now), and their argument seems to be proven. 1Tim 2:9-10 says that instead of adorning themselves with pearls, gold, costly array, etc. women should adorn themselves with good works becuase good works "becometh women professing godliness." This brings 2 questions:

1. What is the protestant/evangelical take on that given the "good works" issue? (I realize that 1Tim 2:9-10 does not say that if a woman (or anyone, for that matter) doesn't do good works that she will not go to heaven, but since this verse does mention the importance of good works, it still confuses me a bit.)

2. Do men and children also have to do good works? I would assume that anyone (man, woman, or child) who has a personal relationship with Jesus would be doing good works because they are in God's grace. Am I right? (Ok, so that was 2 questions disguised as 1 :P .)

[ByzantineDixie]

1. What is the protestant/evangelical take on that given the "good works" issue? (I realize that 1Tim 2:9-10 does not say that if a woman (or anyone, for that matter) doesn't do good works that she will not go to heaven, but since this verse does mention the importance of good works, it still confuses me a bit.)

Maybe this will help. Good works ARE important...but not because that is how we earn our salvation. The passage from Ephesians sums it up perfectly! Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Protestants are careful when discussing works. It is not that we do not believe they are needed--we just do not want anyone making the grave mistake that their works earn God's favor. If we try to earn righteousness in God's eyes with works...we offer up filty rags and we cheapen His grace. Some may misinterpret Protestant caution when discussing works and believe Protestants are worksphobic...but that is not the case. We just are rigorous in combating what we see as wrong theology by those who believe salvation can be earned by works. Think about it...how many poor souls out there think they are going to heaven because they are a "good person"?

We can speak of vertical righteousness which is how we are made righteous in Christ by faith. Only faith in Christ makes us righteous before God. Once we are made righteous and our relationship with God has been established...then we are led by God's grace to do horizontal acts of righteousness, or good works--helping others. Good works are the fruit of faith...we do good works because God gives us the grace to do them. They are not of our own making. We are created to do good works.

2. Do men and children also have to do good works? I would assume that anyone (man, woman, or child) who has a personal relationship with Jesus would be doing good works because they are in God's grace. Am I right? (Ok, so that was 2 questions disguised as 1 :P .)

But of course!!! and yes.

Love

Rose

[Phoebe]

Good works are the fruit of our faith.

[<><]

But it's not an apple tree if it has no apples!

Luke 13
8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.' "

[PinkButterfly1980]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


That is the exact passage that I was talking about that I couldn't think of. Thanks. Also, thank you for the clarification. I found it to be most helpful.

[Bro. Gabriel]

Good deeds are a bi-product of salvation, not a requirement. They are simply proof of a truly saved person. Look at the Greek meaning behind "justified" used by James when relating works to faith.

[indonesianpalmtree]

Well, how do catholics differ from this, then? Just a short summary please.

God bless.

[kimber1]

short summary? we don't ;) feel free to ask this in OBOB where we can better answer your question :)

[InquisitorKind]

Well, how do catholics differ from this, then? Just a short summary please.
Protestant justification before God does not depend upon us doing any good works (Romans 4:5). You can read the official Roman Catholic position for yourself:

"If anyone says that the faith which justifies is nothing else but trust in the divine mercy, which pardons sins because of Christ; or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, "Decree on Justification," Session VI, Canon XII).

"If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, "Decree on Justification", Session VI, Canon XXIV).

"If anyone says that the good deeds of a justified person are the gifts of God, in the sense that they are not also the good merits of the one justified; or that the justified person, by the good deeds done by him through the grace of God and the merits of Jesus Christ (of whom he is a living member), does not truly merit an increase in grace, eternal life, and (so long as he dies in grace) the obtaining of his own eternal life, and even an increase of glory: let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, "Decree on Justification," Session VI, Canon XXXII).

"Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2010).

The positions are far from being the same.

~Matt

[LuxPerpetua]

I think the Catholic and Protestant positions are the same on this issue, at least from what I've seen (we just don't seem to like to get along, and both sides are guilty of that. We have this way of continually misunderstanding each other.).

Protestants believe that good works come naturally out of true faith in Christ. When we submit to God as the master of our lives, he enters us through the Holy Spirit and changes us to desire good things (love, mercy, kindness, compassion, charity, etc.) not the evil pleasures of the world that we used to desire. Scripture points out explicitly that it is the INTENT behind works that is the real measure of the good works themselves, and thus selfless charity is a measure of how much we desire to be Christ-like. When we become a Christian, the Holy Spirit works within us to make us increasingly more like Christ's example. We will always fail at being perfect through our works (and it is only through perfection that we can enter heaven), so it is thus not our works that save us but God's grace and our faith in Christ's sacrifice to cover our sins and make us perfectly righteous in God's eyes that save us. Paul's letter to the Romans does an excellent job of handling this issue.

To make a long-winded story short: If you truly love someone, why would you knowingly do things that displease that person? You wouldn't. Your actions will not always please God (we all make sinful mistakes, even as Christians), but your INTENT should always be to please God, not the world or yourself.

[InquisitorKind]

I think the Catholic and Protestant positions are the same on this issue, at least from what I've seen (we just don't seem to like to get along, and both sides are guilty of that. We have this way of continually misunderstanding each other.).
LuxPerpetua,

Do you see how the sessions of Trent deny faith alone as the means of attaining justification before God? Would you consider that the same position as historic Protestantism?

~Matt

[LuxPerpetua]

I'm not familiar with the post-reformation councils of the Catholic church (I'm better versed in medieval Catholic history) but I do know that the arguments I've seen and heard from Catholics on CF match what I wrote in my post. I'm also not the best person to answer for Protestantism since I'm not so sure that it has everything figured out either. :)

[InquisitorKind]

I'm not familiar with the post-reformation councils of the Catholic church (I'm better versed in medieval Catholic history) but I do know that the arguments I've seen and heard from Catholics on CF match what I wrote in my post. I'm also not the best person to answer for Protestantism since I'm not so sure that it has everything figured out either. :)
Protestantism doesn't have everything figured out. However, it does have a position on justification before God being attained through faith alone. The official, authoritative and infallible (to Catholics) council of Trent states otherwise. I don't know how the other Catholics at CF argued, but Protestants and Catholics differ much on the question of justification before God.

~Matt