Mary and Abraham--yay mom and dad!

[LuxPerpetua]

Okay, I know a lot of Protestants tend to squirm in their seats a little when Mary is mentioned. We all know this has nothing to do with Mary herself but rather with what history has done to her image and the animosity so present in our divided church over how Mary should be viewed. Well, I was reading Romans today for some spiritual pick-me-up (a lot of you know the stress I've been under lately in regard to institutionalized Christianity, but I digress . . . ) and I saw Romans 4. In Romans 4, especially Romans 4:17, Abraham is called our spiritual father. Well, in Revelation 12:17 Mary is presented as our spiritual mother. So, this makes me wonder, why isn't Abraham "honored" the same way as Mary in the church (especially in the Catholic and Orthodox churches)? In Luke 1:42 Mary is only called "blessed among women" not "blessed among men and women." So, it makes me think even further, have we short-changed Abraham in honor?

Do you think that Abraham as our spritual father has anything to do with the genealogies of Jesus in the Gospels? I'm wondering because these are genealogies not of Mary but of Joseph, and we all know that Joseph was not Jesus' real father.

Thoughts? :P

[BarbB]

In Romans 4, especially Romans 4:17, Abraham is called our spiritual father. Well, in Revelation 12:17 Mary is presented as our spiritual mother.

Lux - I don't think that the woman referred to in Revelation 12:17 is Mary, but rather the Church. At any rate, she is not referenced by the name of Mary.

REV 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. [14] The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. [15] Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. [16] But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. [17] Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


Do you think that Abraham as our spritual father has anything to do with the genealogies of Jesus in the Gospels? I'm wondering because these are genealogies not of Mary but of Joseph, and we all know that Joseph was not Jesus' real father.

Thoughts? :P

Wow - I goofed this up at first. Yes, Abraham is absolutely in the geneology of Jesus. Read Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:34. Also, the geneology in Luke is of Mary, not Joseph! It differs in that it's Nathan, not Solomon, who is the ancestor! In other words, both Mary and Joseph were descendents of King David!

[FreeinChrist]

Well, in Revelation 12:17 Mary is presented as our spiritual mother.
The 'woman' in Revelation 12 is Israel. That is why the 12 stars and moon and sun...check out the dreams Joseph, of the multicolored coat, had where his brothers were starts and his mother and father were the sun and the moon.

[TSIBHOD]

And Israel=Church. Compare Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:29.

[FreeinChrist]

I disagree. See Romans 11.

[kimber1]

i disagree with you both but you can come to OBOB and ask why or read scott hahn's "Hail Holy Queen" ;)

[LynneClomina]

The true jew is a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ. we are abrahams seed. i have dont a study on that, if i knew where is was, i would make points on this, but basically, the scriptures are everywhere through romans and beyond.

[Hix]

Romans says you are "grafted in". The true branch, ie the Jews descended from Abraham are still part of Israel. Might I also note that Paul also says in romans that any who have been grafted in and think they are better than those already part of the tree, will be removed.

[nyj]

...

[mrversatile48]

I clicked on Vat-HQ site & noted many in 1 of the Passion threads, with their RC section/para numbers, showing how the Bible says the opposite

The masterly scholarship of "The 2 Babylons: Romanism & Its Origins 1st came out in the 19th century, & the 1998 edition said nobody had ever seriously challenged its historicity, let alone disproved it, as RCs now say

I must get ready for church soon, so very briefly...

OOPS: I only have time for the most obvious: Jeremiah 44 specifically prophesies against Astarte, Venus, etc being called Queen of Heaven & Habitation of God - (see verse 4, etc)

Pagan occult goddesses like them inspired "sacred temple prostitution" - selling promiscuous orgies, that spread STDs, by the fertility cult lie that scattering sexual seed was the magic way to abundant harvests

Mary said, "My soul rejoices in God my Saviour"

Only a sinner needs a Saviour

RCs Cataclysmic Catastrophe catechism calls Mary both Comforter & Advocate: titles of the Holy Spirit

Rosary = prayers to her

She is not a goddess: that's blasphemous idolatry, against what Jesus said was the most vital command, & the only 1 to spell out the consequences - see Exodus 20

Ian

[nyj]

The masterly scholarship of "The 2 Babylons: Romanism & Its Origins 1st came out in the 19th century, & the 1998 edition said nobody had ever seriously challenged its historicity, let alone disproved it...
Obviously they have not heard of Ralph Woodrow, Protestant Minister, who has written a book entitled Babylon Connection? (http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/babylon.htm).

Have you read this book Mr. Versatile48?

[FreeinChrist]

This is the P/R/E Room. Please respect the rules here.

[geocajun]

mrversatile48, might I suggest that you take your concerns to the Catholic forum, where we can address them appropriately? I think your concerns can be easily address by the Catholics on the One Bread, One Body (http://www.christianforums.com/f26) board, however we are not permitted to help you understand the errors in your post on this particular forum as it may be considered debate by the members.
Thanks!

[LynneClomina]

Romans says you are "grafted in". The true branch, ie the Jews descended from Abraham are still part of Israel. Might I also note that Paul also says in romans that any who have been grafted in and think they are better than those already part of the tree, will be removed.

some Jews are the seed, yes. never said anybody was better than anybody else, thank you KIND sir.

Jesus himself said that the scribes and pharisees were of their father the devil, and NOT abrahams children. so not ALL jews are abrahams seed.

[nyj]

:scratch:

I don't know that exactly answers the question I asked, since it was really a "Yes or No" question, but...

... thanks for responding. I guess.

[LuxPerpetua]

I read Revelation 12 as pertaining to both Mary and to Israel, which = the church. It is fairly obvious to me that it has two meanings. I'm not sure of why so much animosity against a double-reading is attached to this. Is there anything incorrect with a double-reading? It seems to make sense to me that if we had a spiritual father in Abraham, that we would have a spiritual mother in Mary--Abraham's seed beget Israel and Mary's womb birthed the new Israel.

The reason I initiated this thread is because I do think Mary should be honored--perhaps not in the same way as in Catholic tradition--but honored nonetheless. Most (if not all) Protestants agree, as noted from the Theotokos thread. The issue then comes that to me that Abraham seems to take a back seat in honor even to Mary in many Christian traditions (Protestants never have a Christmas without Mary being involved), and yet his role as our spiritual father (the other passage from Paul's writings that I quoted above states this explicitly) seems to place Abraham and Mary both on the same level. So, then it makes me wonder, so many non-Prostestants pray to Mary specifically and to saints, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone praying specifically to Abraham, which, according to the reasoning I've presented, would make equal sense to me if one were to pray through "parental" mediators.

I'm not sure this thread belongs in PRE, but I can't post it in OBOB or TAW because it contradicts their churches' teachings, I think. I don't want to debate with Catholics or Orthodox on this, but only to further understand this "spiritual parenthood" for my own knowledge and understand why Abraham isn't given an equal position to Mary in the non-Protestant traditions. Like I said, though, I'm not sure where to post this thread.

So, how does this reasoning on the equality of Abraham and Mary sound to my Protestant siblings? The other question, then, is what role, if any, do "spritual parents" play in our relationship with God?


***
I'm editing my original post to fix typos. The content should remain the same, though. It's amazing how you can reread stuff you've typed and never notice the mistakes until later. :P

[LuxPerpetua]

Also, pardon my ignorance, but can someone please spell out to me the reasoning on the genealogy thing again? I'm still confused. :blush:

[FreeinChrist]

So, how does this reasoning on the equality of Abraham and Mary sound to my Protestant siblings? The other question, then, is what role, if any, do "spritual parents" play in our relationship with God?


Well, as I wrote - I very much disagree with the idea that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the 'woman' of Revelation 12. I referred to the dream Joseph had of the twelve brothers being stars, and Jacob as the sun and his mother as the moon. Look at the description of the 'woman'. It is Israel - Jacob's later name.

And though we see a promise in the OT about Abraham being a father to many nations, we do not see a similar promise to Mary.

Now it seems that anytime we don't heap all kinds of extra accolades on Mary - we are accused of demeaning her. But one should determine theology on the word of God.

So sorry, I don't agree with your 'spiritual parents' idea.

[LuxPerpetua]

Well, as I wrote - I very much disagree with the idea that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the 'woman' of Revelation 12. I referred to the dream Joseph had of the twelve brothers being stars, and Jacob as the sun and his mother as the moon. Look at the description of the 'woman'. It is Israel - Jacob's later name.

And though we see a promise in the OT about Abraham being a father to many nations, we do not see a similar promise to Mary.

Now it seems that anytime we don't heap all kinds of extra accolades on Mary - we are accused of demeaning her. But one should determine theology on the word of God.

So sorry, I don't agree with your 'spiritual parents' idea.

No harm in disagreeing, since I don't think Mariology by any standards is essential to salvation. :)

[NewToLife]

There are some Orthodox commentators who have seen the woman in Revelation 12 as Mary but more typically Orthodox see the woman in Revelation 12 as the Church 'clothed in the word of the father'. I only post in order to address any potential misunderstanding of our interpretation.

[DaleC76]

Also, pardon my ignorance, but can someone please spell out to me the reasoning on the genealogy thing again? I'm still confused. :blush:

Matthew gives Jesus' legal geneology, thorugh his 'father', Joseph. ("And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary... 1:16)

Luke gives Jesus' physical geneology, through his mother, Mary. ("And Jesus... the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli. 3:23)

Joseph can't have had two fathers, so Heli must have been his father-in-law. This is in accordance to other places in the Bible where "son" is used to mean "son-in-law" and explains why the two geneologies are so different.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Why isn't Abraham honored as much as Mary?

Because Abraham didn't give birth to and raise our God.

[FreeinChrist]

Abraham is honored by three large relgions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

He is the father of many nations, as God promised. And from Abraham, via Issac and Jacob ....the promised Seed (Messiah) came into the world. Mary and Joseph were Jewish, descendents of Abraham...It is from Israel that Christ was born (via Mary).

Mary, of course, is blessed, an example of faith and obedience, and to be honored. So was Abraham an example of obedience and faith.
But I believe the woman in Rev. 12 is Israel - which gave irth to the man-child, who was taken up to heaven.

[Dominus Fidelis]

Do you think its possible that the woman in Rev 12 is both Mary and Israel? We believe there are sometimes multiple meanings of Scripture...and if we are look both Israel AND Mary fit the descriptions in Rev 12, no?

[prodromos]

Matthew gives Jesus' legal geneology, thorugh his 'father', Joseph. ("And Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary... 1:16)

Luke gives Jesus' physical geneology, through his mother, Mary. ("And Jesus... the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli. 3:23)

Joseph can't have had two fathers, so Heli must have been his father-in-law. This is in accordance to other places in the Bible where "son" is used to mean "son-in-law" and explains why the two geneologies are so different.

Actually, in Jewish Law a man can have two fathers. If a man dies childless, his brother would marry his widow and the first child they produce would be considered the child of the deceased brother even though he is actually his nephew, the son of the living brother. Inheritance is a REALLY BIG DEAL in Jewish law. On account of this, if a woman was an only child, she had to marry someone within her tribe so that her inheritance would not go to another tribe.

Though not recorded in the Gospels, in the Orthodox and Catholic Tradition there is no question as to Mary being the only child of Joachim and Anna, so it is clear to Orthodox and Catholics that neither genealogy is that of Mary, Jesus' mother.

Our understanding is that Matthan's wife gave birth to Jacob, and upon his death she was married to Matthat and gave birth to Eli. So Jacob and Eli were uterine brothers by different fathers. Eli married, but died childless, so his brother Jacob took Eli's widow and produced a son for him, Joseph. Thus Joseph is Eli's son by law and Jacob's son by nature.

Mary, being an only child, had to marry someone from her own tribe. This of course only establishes that she was of the tribe of Judah and not specifically a descendant of David. I think, once again, that it is Tradition which establishes her being of David's line.

John.

[JeffreyLloyd]

Do you think its possible that the woman in Rev 12 is both Mary and Israel? We believe there are sometimes multiple meanings of Scripture...and if we are look both Israel AND Mary fit the descriptions in Rev 12, no?

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

[cadworm]

Abraham is honored by three large relgions - Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

He is the father of many nations, as God promised. And from Abraham, via Issac and Jacob ....the promised Seed (Messiah) came into the world. Mary and Joseph were Jewish, descendents of Abraham...It is from Israel that Christ was born (via Mary).

Mary, of course, is blessed, an example of faith and obedience, and to be honored. So was Abraham an example of obedience and faith.
But I believe the woman in Rev. 12 is Israel - which gave irth to the man-child, who was taken up to heaven.

Free in Christ is correct in her statement that the woman is Israel. This is obvious when the entire chapter is read in context. The place prepared in the wilderness is Petra where the woman is nourished for 3 1/2 years (12:14). If a person is looking for a duplicity in meaning, the women represents not only Israel but also Jews who have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior.

I am sorry if this does not fit with any particular dogma. The Bible is clear in it's meaning. :prayer: